PDA

View Full Version : Help with R1b subclade



alexdan
07-03-2019, 07:51 PM
I`m from Spain, Cuenca. The land of my family was a land of Celts, the tribe of Los Olcades and then came the Roman invasion, with cities in my area like Segóbriga.

In my analysis of autosomal DNA I have obtained 100% European in all the websites that I have tried, myheritage, Dnaland and gedmatch.

In my composition I have Celtic components (Celtiberians and Romans (Italian markers and sardinian) in a similar proportion more or less, 50% -40% .I suppose this comes because my town in the province of Cuenca was a Roman villa and before that it was place of Celtic tribes.

But the question is that I have about 10%-15% (gedmatch) of Scottish markers, from the North Sea, Orcadian, and Nordic. DNA.LAND marks about 6.5%.

So, when using Morley dna analysis I get the group R1b L-11, P310 and similar, but I want to know the subgroup.

I have in my DNA the entire line of DF-27 from celtic on iberia and L-459 which I understand is related to the Scottish / Nordic markers that I got in the autosomal DNA.

What will you think is my real subclade? I think DF-27 makes more sense, but I do not know what to think anymore. Thank you!!!

3143931440

31441

rms2
07-03-2019, 08:45 PM
Did you run your Ancestry raw data through Morley's predictor? Or do you have some y-dna test results (like STRs)?

alexdan
07-03-2019, 08:57 PM
Raw data

ArmandoR1b
07-04-2019, 01:47 AM
You should get the R1b-M343 Orientation Panel from Yseq at https://www.yseq.net/product_info.php?cPath=27&products_id=16349 It only costs $77.00 and it will tell you if you are positive for P312 and if so if you are positive for DF27, U152, or L21. Your raw data does not contain information about those SNPs and it is why they don't have a green or red background. If you choose to add Downstream Panels it only costs an extra $59 and will give you downstream subclade information if you are positive for a subclade included in those downstream panels.

alexdan
07-04-2019, 09:35 AM
Thank you!! But the Morley green PF6546/P310/S129 It is correct and safe without having to do another analysis ??? I'm from Spain so it makes more sense DF-27, what do you think? I do not know how predictors work, are they really reliable?

I do not want to spend more money to get the same, if morley is more or less reliable, it's fine if the main group is correct...

Ruderico
07-04-2019, 10:30 AM
Well for what it's worth my subclade is extremelly rare and Morley got it right, certainly better than 23andme did

alexdan
07-04-2019, 10:34 AM
Ruderico. Did you subclade in morley turn orange or green? Do you think mine would be DF-27? Thank you

ArmandoR1b
07-04-2019, 11:56 AM
Thank you!! But the Morley green PF6546/P310/S129 It is correct and safe without having to do another analysis ??? I'm from Spain so it makes more sense DF-27, what do you think? I do not know how predictors work, are they really reliable?

I do not want to spend more money to get the same, if morley is more or less reliable, it's fine if the main group is correct...
Yes, the Morley green PF6546/P310/S129 It is correct and safe without having to do another analysis. DF27 is the most common subclade of P310 in Spain but it's not as if L21 and U152 are totally absent from Spain so you should get additional testing to determine which subclade of P310 you really do belong to. The Morley predictor uses the raw data to find out which SNPs were tested positive and which were tested negative. If there is no red or green background there is not a positive or negative result for the listed SNPs in your raw data. The Morley predictor can't generate data from anything that was not tested. Since you were not tested for DF27, L21, and U152 you do not have information from the raw data.

ArmandoR1b
07-04-2019, 12:00 PM
Well for what it's worth my subclade is extremelly rare and Morley got it right, certainly better than 23andme did

That should have only been during the period between when the 23andme v5 test was released and when 23andme finally reported all of the tested SNPs that were reliable and positive. It was about 10 months ago that you should have seen a good terminal SNP at the 23andme site at https://you.23andme.com/reports/paternal_haplogroup/ What do you currently have at 23andme and what did Morley give you?

ArmandoR1b
07-04-2019, 12:05 PM
Ruderico. Did you subclade in morley turn orange or green? Do you think mine would be DF-27? Thank you

23andme does not test for DF27. It is not possible for Morley to show a red or green background for DF27 from 23andme raw data. The brown font for DF27 is because it was not included in the NatGeo test. See page 4 of the PDF at https://ytree.morleydna.com/experimental-phylogeny There is a table that explains the colors used.

Ruderico
07-04-2019, 12:14 PM
That should have only been during the period between when the 23andme v5 test was released and when 23andme finally reported all of the tested SNPs that were reliable and positive. It was about 10 months ago that you should have seen a good terminal SNP at the 23andme site at https://you.23andme.com/reports/paternal_haplogroup/

It was around that time, yes. They just reported E-M123, and their description mentions it's common amonst Jewish populations.
However I'm also negative for E-M34 which is where all Jewish clades are at (and some 95% of E-M123 individuals), so if I were to trust their report alone I'd have been very much misguided, because so far not a single individual who's E-Y31991 has a known Jewish ancestor, which is expected considering the subclade itself was formed in 17700 ybp, has a TMRCA at 10400 ybp and predates Judaism by millenia

ArmandoR1b
07-04-2019, 12:17 PM
Here is a table of the haplogroups currently reported by 23andme. https://tinyurl.com/y8baooht It will be a very unusual situation if the outdated tree from 2013 by Morley can provide a better prediction than what is now reported by 23andme.

ArmandoR1b
07-04-2019, 12:22 PM
It was around that time, yes. They just reported E-M123, and their description mentions it's common amonst Jewish populations.
However I'm also negative for E-M34 which is where all Jewish clades are at (and some 95% of E-M123 individuals), so if I were to trust their report alone I'd have been very much misguided, because so far not a single individual who's E-Y31991 has a known Jewish ancestor, which is expected considering the subclade itself was formed in 17700 ybp, has a TMRCA at 10400 ybp and predates Judaism by millenia

What does 23andme currently report for you? Just an FYI, not all negative SNPs in the raw data by 23andme are accurate. There are some false negatives such as DF63, Z272, and Z295 in the 23andme v5 raw data so not everyone can rely on negative SNPs. The Morley tree is also outdated. It is from 2013 and there are a lot of SNPs in 23andme v5 that aren't in the Morley tree. So Morley should be used with caution.

ArmandoR1b
07-04-2019, 12:24 PM
Raw data

From which company because that does not look like it is from 23andme or AncestryDNA because they both test L21 and U152.

Ruderico
07-04-2019, 01:10 PM
What does 23andme currently report for you? Just an FYI, not all negative SNPs in the raw data by 23andme are accurate. There are some false negatives such as DF63, Z272, and Z295 in the 23andme v5 raw data so not everyone can rely on negative SNPs. The Morley tree is also outdated. It is from 2013 and there are a lot of SNPs in 23andme v5 that aren't in the Morley tree. So Morley should be used with caution.

Just E-M123. I am E-M123 Y31991 PF4428 BY36858 Y134097

ArmandoR1b
07-04-2019, 02:30 PM
Just E-M123. I am E-M123 Y31991 PF4428 BY36858 Y134097

So really the only thing that the Morley predictor helped with is the negative result of M34 since Y31991, PF4428, BY36858, Y134097 aren't in the raw data of 23andme and most of those aren't in the Morley tree. I can agree that Morley gave you more information since 23andme doesn't inform anyone what they are reliably negative for. Since M34 is reliably tested a negative for M34 is reliable. Morley doesn't know what is reliable though so not everyone will know if their result in reliable. In the case of a person with a paternal haplogroup of P311 at 23andme they will see a red background for L21 and U152 with the Morley predictor and those are reliably tested. It makes them more likely to be positive for DF27 if reliably tested for it at Yseq or FTDNA especially if the direct paternal line is from Spain or Portugal. In the case of alexdan he wasn't tested by 23andme and doesn't have a result for L21 or U152 so we don't know which, if any, of the common subclades of P310*P311 that he belongs to.

alexdan
07-04-2019, 08:00 PM
Yes, the Morley green PF6546/P310/S129 It is correct and safe without having to do another analysis. DF27 is the most common subclade of P310 in Spain but it's not as if L21 and U152 are totally absent from Spain so you should get additional testing to determine which subclade of P310 you really do belong to. The Morley predictor uses the raw data to find out which SNPs were tested positive and which were tested negative. If there is no red or green background there is not a positive or negative result for the listed SNPs in your raw data. The Morley predictor can't generate data from anything that was not tested. Since you were not tested for DF27, L21, and U152 you do not have information from the raw data.

Thank you. You have clarified many doubts and you have convinced me to do the real analysis Y.

Is YSEQ a good option? Do I choose R1b-M343? Or better the Top Panel? Do I trust Morley's results and go directly to panel R1b M343?

Thank you

dosas
07-04-2019, 08:22 PM
Big Y700. The only way to discover the final subclade for sure. It's expensive so you need to decide if it's worth it for you.

ArmandoR1b
07-04-2019, 09:35 PM
Thank you. You have clarified many doubts and you have convinced me to do the real analysis Y.

Is YSEQ a good option? Do I choose R1b-M343? Or better the Top Panel? Do I trust Morley's results and go directly to panel R1b M343?

Thank you

Your positive results for two R1 SNPs, PF6485 (an equivalent of M269), and P310 and negative for all other SNPs from non-R1b SNPs is good enough to trust that you are in a subclade of P310. Yseq is a great option for people needing to save money and get the most downstream subclade that can possibly be identified for that price. If you go with Yseq then choose the $77 R1b-M343 Orientation Panel with the optional extra $59 for downstream panels. Compare that total of $136 to $649 for Big Y700. If money is no issue then you should get the Big Y700 since it is the best Y-DNA test there is since FTDNA has such a large database. Many of the subclades in the FTDNA tree do not show up at YFull since not everyone uploads to YFull. Those extra testers and subclades at FTDNA allow for a possible discovery of new subclades based on your own mutations.

Personally I wish all Spaniards, Portuguese. and Latin Americans interested in Y-DNA would get Big Y since I want to see more matches and I hope to find a lot of people that share a lot of mutations with me since my direct paternal line is from Spain. My ancestors are from the north of Spain but I know descendants of my ancestors have been all over Spain so I won't be surprised if I see matches from regions my ancestors didn't live in.

alexdan
07-06-2019, 07:41 PM
Your positive results for two R1 SNPs, PF6485 (an equivalent of M269), and P310 and negative for all other SNPs from non-R1b SNPs is good enough to trust that you are in a subclade of P310. Yseq is a great option for people needing to save money and get the most downstream subclade that can possibly be identified for that price. If you go with Yseq then choose the $77 R1b-M343 Orientation Panel with the optional extra $59 for downstream panels. Compare that total of $136 to $649 for Big Y700. If money is no issue then you should get the Big Y700 since it is the best Y-DNA test there is since FTDNA has such a large database. Many of the subclades in the FTDNA tree do not show up at YFull since not everyone uploads to YFull. Those extra testers and subclades at FTDNA allow for a possible discovery of new subclades based on your own mutations.

Personally I wish all Spaniards, Portuguese. and Latin Americans interested in Y-DNA would get Big Y since I want to see more matches and I hope to find a lot of people that share a lot of mutations with me since my direct paternal line is from Spain. My ancestors are from the north of Spain but I know descendants of my ancestors have been all over Spain so I won't be surprised if I see matches from regions my ancestors didn't live in.

In the end I will order the r1b m343 panel with the offer for downstream panels. By sorting this will I get all the lower panels down to my single subclass?

I also wanted to ask if you think it is possible that in the 6-10% I have of Scottish, North Sea and Nordic markers, if my r1b halogroup could come from a man from this lands who passed through Spain or if it would be something difficult.

--------------------------------

So, today I use the rcasey predictor to L-21 with my y-srt extract for morley and I get 95% of DF41. Is this a good sign?

ArmandoR1b
07-07-2019, 07:37 PM
In the end I will order the r1b m343 panel with the offer for downstream panels. By sorting this will I get all the lower panels down to my single subclass?
Yes, you will be tested for one of the defining SNPs for each of the subclades as far down as can possibly be done at that price. It is possible to be negative for a defining SNP but negative for the phylogenetic equivalents but you would need the much more expensive Big Y test for that.



I also wanted to ask if you think it is possible that in the 6-10% I have of Scottish, North Sea and Nordic markers, if my r1b halogroup could come from a man from this lands who passed through Spain or if it would be something difficult.
That is something that is more difficult. The autosomal DNA is from all of your ancestors that passed it down to you and it could be from multiple ancestors not in your direct paternal line. If you were to get a 23andme test your results would likely be very different and likely more accurate. The autosomal results can vary due to different algorithms, reference datasets, and so on. I have found 23andme to be more accurate when comparing well documented ancestry.




--------------------------------

So, today I use the rcasey predictor to L-21 with my y-srt extract for morley and I get 95% of DF41. Is this a good sign?
It is just a predictor and using STR markers can cause an incorrect result. The predictor even states that it should not be used if you have not had a positive result L21 in an SNPs test. So you shouldn't be using it since you don't have a positive or negative result for L21. Once you get the results from Yseq you will then know if you are negative or positive for L21 and DF41.