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View Full Version : Why do people from APULIA and BASILICATA, S. ITALY plot nearer mainland Greeks?



Sikeliot
07-04-2019, 04:19 PM
I have seen this on GEDmatch as well as the new Cretan study, in which Apulians do not cluster with Cretans/Sicilians, but up near the Peloponnese. Also, 23andme gives them elevated "Greek and Balkan."

This is an example... he is almost 20% mainland Greek and matching with Peloponnesians.

https://i.imgur.com/gyJL2mC.png

Additionally, from nMonte modeling (and I'd like to see this confirmed again since we have new samples), there is an increase in NE European/BaltoSlavic type input and almost NO Levantine, North African, or additional West Asian input. The Sarno et al 2017 study also gave Apulians and people from neighboring Basilicata scarcely any more "Near Eastern" than what they gave to Peloponnesians, and on the PCA plot they are also drifting toward mainland Greeks.

What we are essentially seeing is a population similar to Maniots and south Peloponnesians that deviates from the East Mediterranean cluster.

Why is this? I can think of a few historical explanations which, to me, all must work in combination:

1. Illyrian input from the pre-Greek population.
2. A greater degree of Greek settlement directly from mainland Greece as opposed to from the Aegean, Anatolia, or Cyprus.
3. Isolation from additional sources of West Asian ancestry that impacted the rest of the South Aegean sphere.
4. Recent Greek input in the last 1000 years with the Slavic ancestry embedded.

What do others think? I don't think their plotting can be seen as just a reduction in Phoenician or whatever else ancestry, to me they require actual, recent Greek input.

Agamemnon
07-05-2019, 12:48 AM
Considering what the single Balkans IA sample we have looks like and the Eastern European shift of Apulians in comparison with other South Italians, this is unlikely to be due to Illyrian settlement. Additional Greek settlement from the mainland during the classical era can also be ruled out, variation between the Mycenaeans and the Emporiote Greeks is minimal which basically precludes such a scenario. The most parsimonious explanation considering the relatively late Byzantine presence in Apulia (until the 11th century) is additional ancestry from Mainland Greece at a stage when the various Slavic tribes that made it to Greece (https://i.redd.it/bsjan6l4gj711.png) had already been absorbed.

TonyC
07-05-2019, 01:11 AM
[QUOTE=Sikeliot;579685]I have seen this on GEDmatch as well as the new Cretan study, in which Apulians do not cluster with Cretans/Sicilians, but up near the Peloponnese. Also, 23andme gives them elevated "Greek and Balkan."

This is an example... he is almost 20% mainland Greek and matching with Peloponnesians.

https://i.imgur.com/gyJL2mC.png

Additionally, from nMonte modeling (and I'd like to see this confirmed again since we have new samples), there is an increase in NE European/BaltoSlavic type input and almost NO Levantine, North African, or additional West Asian input. The Sarno et al 2017 study also gave Apulians and people from neighboring Basilicata scarcely any more "Near Eastern" than what they gave to Peloponnesians, and on the PCA plot they are also drifting toward mainland Greeks.

What we are essentially seeing is a population similar to Maniots and south Peloponnesians that deviates from the East Mediterranean cluster.

Why is this? I can think of a few historical explanations which, to me, all must work in combination:

1. Illyrian input from the pre-Greek population.
2. A greater degree of Greek settlement directly from mainland Greece as opposed to from the Aegean, Anatolia, or Cyprus.
3. Isolation from additional sources of West Asian ancestry that impacted the rest of the South Aegean sphere.
4. Recent Greek input in the last 1000 years with the Slavic ancestry embedded.

What do others think? I don't think their plotting can be seen as just a reduction in Phoenician or whatever else ancestry, to me they require actual, recent Greek input.


I'm primarily Messinian/Peloponnesian Greek (with minimal Arcadian) and I get Sicily (not sure which region) and Basillicata as top 2 for my Italian admixture which is 8.2%.

vettor
07-05-2019, 01:19 AM
I have seen this on GEDmatch as well as the new Cretan study, in which Apulians do not cluster with Cretans/Sicilians, but up near the Peloponnese. Also, 23andme gives them elevated "Greek and Balkan."

This is an example... he is almost 20% mainland Greek and matching with Peloponnesians.

https://i.imgur.com/gyJL2mC.png

Additionally, from nMonte modeling (and I'd like to see this confirmed again since we have new samples), there is an increase in NE European/BaltoSlavic type input and almost NO Levantine, North African, or additional West Asian input. The Sarno et al 2017 study also gave Apulians and people from neighboring Basilicata scarcely any more "Near Eastern" than what they gave to Peloponnesians, and on the PCA plot they are also drifting toward mainland Greeks.

What we are essentially seeing is a population similar to Maniots and south Peloponnesians that deviates from the East Mediterranean cluster.

Why is this? I can think of a few historical explanations which, to me, all must work in combination:

1. Illyrian input from the pre-Greek population.
2. A greater degree of Greek settlement directly from mainland Greece as opposed to from the Aegean, Anatolia, or Cyprus.
3. Isolation from additional sources of West Asian ancestry that impacted the rest of the South Aegean sphere.
4. Recent Greek input in the last 1000 years with the Slavic ancestry embedded.

What do others think? I don't think their plotting can be seen as just a reduction in Phoenician or whatever else ancestry, to me they require actual, recent Greek input.

beacuse up to 700BC there was no greeks along the adriatic sea........the liburnian illyrians ruled as far south as Corfu, in 700BC corinthians took corfu from the liburnians, then took modern ancona lands and landed in modern rimini
There are no illyrians, that is a modern name.....the romans called the lands illricum but the people/tribes are all different, Liburnians, Dalmatians, Pannonians, Histrians, Iapedes ( modern croatia which traveled to apulia pre 700 bc ) etc etc

Corinthians also took eastern sicily


The term illyrian is the same as the term scandinavian ...........a regional/geographical area

Sikeliot
07-05-2019, 01:50 AM
Considering what the single Balkans IA sample we have looks like and the Eastern European shift of Apulians in comparison with other South Italians, this is unlikely to be due to Illyrian settlement. Additional Greek settlement from the mainland during the classical era can also be ruled out, variation between the Mycenaeans and the Emporiote Greeks is minimal which basically precludes such a scenario. The most parsimonious explanation considering the relatively late Byzantine presence in Apulia (until the 11th century) is additional ancestry from Mainland Greece at a stage when the various Slavic tribes that made it to Greece (https://i.redd.it/bsjan6l4gj711.png) had already been absorbed.

So essentially it is due to mainland Greek input and thus, genuine Slavic ancestry in Apulia. This is what I thought. Apulia is very poorly studied. I wonder if they have more Slavic ancestry than some Aegean islands.

Agamemnon
07-05-2019, 02:04 AM
So essentially it is due to mainland Greek input and thus, genuine Slavic ancestry in Apulia. This is what I thought. Apulia is very poorly studied. I wonder if they have more Slavic ancestry than some Aegean islands.

I do think there is more genuinely Slavic ancestry in Apulia than in some of the South Aegean islands (Kos, Rhodes, Karpathos, Kalymnos, Symi etc), most also seem to be more Slavic shifted than Ashkenazim on average which means that the Slavic admixture is quite substantial, IMO some of the Y-DNA results from Apulia do make this likely. That being said on average I would expect them to have less than in most Aegean islands and as well as less than Maniots and Tsakonians.

The problem as I see it though is that there is some degree of substructure in Apulia, I've seen individuals from Taranto who are quite similar to Sicilians and Calabrians for instance, so it's not like we're dealing with a monolith (though I do think the substructure between South Italians is often overstated).

Sikeliot
07-05-2019, 02:26 AM
I do think there is more genuinely Slavic ancestry in Apulia than in some of the South Aegean islands (Kos, Rhodes, Karpathos, Kalymnos, Symi etc), most also seem to be more Slavic shifted than Ashkenazim on average which means that the Slavic admixture is quite substantial, IMO some of the Y-DNA results from Apulia do make this likely. That being said on average I would expect them to have less than in most Aegean islands and as well as less than Maniots and Tsakonians.

The problem as I see it though is that there is some degree of substructure in Apulia, I've seen individuals from Taranto who are quite similar to Sicilians and Calabrians for instance, so it's not like we're dealing with a monolith (though I do think the substructure between South Italians is often overstated).

Autosomally Apulians are the only South Italians who plot more with mainland Greeks than average but they are probably closest to Cyclades and North Aegeans who are themselves transitional. Whereas Sicilians and Calabrians are more like Crete.

The one result I have from Kos on Gedmatch is close to Calabrians.

Johnny ola
07-05-2019, 03:25 AM
Can you say witch regions of Greece and Italy are close with each other?

I would like also to know the genetic clushter of Molise and Basillicata and how close these regions coming to modern Greeks.

Sikeliot
07-05-2019, 04:56 AM
Can you say witch regions of Greece and Italy are close with each other?

I would like also to know the genetic clushter of Molise and Basillicata and how close these regions coming to modern Greeks.

In my observation:

Apulia/Basilicata with Mani/Tsakonia/Cyclades/North Aegean
Sicily/Calabria with Crete/Dodecanese
Campania/Abruzzo/Molise are between Central Italy and the Sicily/Crete cluster

Johnny ola
07-05-2019, 05:09 AM
In my observation:

Apulia/Basilicata with Mani/Tsakonia/Cyclades/North Aegean
Sicily/Calabria with Crete/Dodecanese
Campania/Abruzzo/Molise are between Central Italy and the Sicily/Crete cluster


Βtw what differentiates south italians in general with Italians in central regions?The higher Levant/West Asia/Berber in South and the higher Steppe/Northern element in central italy???

Apulia/Basillicata seems normal south euro.In Sicily/Calabria we got more near east and people from abruzzo and Molise combine both elements right?

Sikeliot
07-05-2019, 11:36 AM
Βtw what differentiates south italians in general with Italians in central regions?The higher Levant/West Asia/Berber in South and the higher Steppe/Northern element in central italy???

Apulia/Basillicata seems normal south euro.In Sicily/Calabria we got more near east and people from abruzzo and Molise combine both elements right?

Apulia/Basilicata have an Eastern European shift. Central Italy has a NW European one.

Sikeliot
07-05-2019, 12:05 PM
The problem as I see it though is that there is some degree of substructure in Apulia, I've seen individuals from Taranto who are quite similar to Sicilians and Calabrians for instance, so it's not like we're dealing with a monolith (though I do think the substructure between South Italians is often overstated).

Seems to me like South Italy is genetically very similar but there are a few deviant regions that "shift" in other directions:

1. Trapani toward NW Europe and away from other Sicilians and the Crete cluster
2. Apulia and Basilicata toward mainland Greece
3. Calabria toward Cyprus, similar to some Dodecanese people
4. Campania, Abruzzo, and Molise bridge the gap to Central Italy

but all of these are similar.

Principe
07-05-2019, 01:45 PM
[QUOTE=Sikeliot;579685]I have seen this on GEDmatch as well as the new Cretan study, in which Apulians do not cluster with Cretans/Sicilians, but up near the Peloponnese. Also, 23andme gives them elevated "Greek and Balkan."

This is an example... he is almost 20% mainland Greek and matching with Peloponnesians.

https://i.imgur.com/gyJL2mC.png

Additionally, from nMonte modeling (and I'd like to see this confirmed again since we have new samples), there is an increase in NE European/BaltoSlavic type input and almost NO Levantine, North African, or additional West Asian input. The Sarno et al 2017 study also gave Apulians and people from neighboring Basilicata scarcely any more "Near Eastern" than what they gave to Peloponnesians, and on the PCA plot they are also drifting toward mainland Greeks.

What we are essentially seeing is a population similar to Maniots and south Peloponnesians that deviates from the East Mediterranean cluster.

Why is this? I can think of a few historical explanations which, to me, all must work in combination:

1. Illyrian input from the pre-Greek population.
2. A greater degree of Greek settlement directly from mainland Greece as opposed to from the Aegean, Anatolia, or Cyprus.
3. Isolation from additional sources of West Asian ancestry that impacted the rest of the South Aegean sphere.
4. Recent Greek input in the last 1000 years with the Slavic ancestry embedded.

What do others think? I don't think their plotting can be seen as just a reduction in Phoenician or whatever else ancestry, to me they require actual, recent Greek input.


I'm primarily Messinian/Peloponnesian Greek (with minimal Arcadian) and I get Sicily (not sure which region) and Basillicata as top 2 for my Italian admixture which is 8.2%.

Haha thatís essentially my mix B)

Principe
07-05-2019, 02:07 PM
My paternal side is from Basilicata so this is my observation based on my data, luckily I have my uncle (fully Sicilian) to compare to.

I being half Sicilian and half Lucani still always get various Sicilian populations as my first reference on any Gedmatch calculator (aside some that give me Ashkenazi first), its usually Trapani first but Agrigento as a close second (mom’s side is from province of Girgent), they are usually with decimal points so this suggests to me the part of Basilicata where my paternal side is from has a similar genetic structure to Western Sicily (more akin to Trapani).

Also Basilicata is varied for sure, as the Coasts held some of the largest Greek colonies in ancient times (Greek pottery is even found in my paternal village which is about 30-40 min drive from the coast), in all honest Basilicata should be split three ways, the South+Coast was heavily Greek and very closely tied to Cosenza province, NorthWest was the heart of Lucanian territory and should resemble Salernitani and the Northeast being connect to Puglia.

Neighboring villages to my paternal one were still largely Orthodox until 1300’s, if that’s any indication. But even at that Basilicata history is largely ignored and not much is available on it, I never read anything about Slavs being settled there, there was a couple of Northern Italian settlements, Greeks, Jews and a small Saracen (essentially North African) presence, and Levantine Priests (mostly monks so there shouldn’t have been any genetic contribution). And of course Arbereshe that were settled there as well more recently.

Sikeliot
07-05-2019, 05:19 PM
My paternal side is from Basilicata so this is my observation based on my data, luckily I have my uncle (fully Sicilian) to compare to.

I being half Sicilian and half Lucani still always get various Sicilian populations as my first reference on any Gedmatch calculator (aside some that give me Ashkenazi first), its usually Trapani first but Agrigento as a close second (mom’s side is from province of Girgent), they are usually with decimal points so this suggests to me the part of Basilicata where my paternal side is from has a similar genetic structure to Western Sicily (more akin to Trapani).

Also Basilicata is varied for sure, as the Coasts held some of the largest Greek colonies in ancient times (Greek pottery is even found in my paternal village which is about 30-40 min drive from the coast), in all honest Basilicata should be split three ways, the South+Coast was heavily Greek and very closely tied to Cosenza province, NorthWest was the heart of Lucanian territory and should resemble Salernitani and the Northeast being connect to Puglia.

Neighboring villages to my paternal one were still largely Orthodox until 1300’s, if that’s any indication. But even at that Basilicata history is largely ignored and not much is available on it, I never read anything about Slavs being settled there, there was a couple of Northern Italian settlements, Greeks, Jews and a small Saracen (essentially North African) presence, and Levantine Priests (mostly monks so there shouldn’t have been any genetic contribution). And of course Arbereshe that were settled there as well more recently.

Slavic input would be inherited from more recent Greek ancestors rather than directly.

Sikeliot
07-07-2019, 01:03 PM
So it would appear to me that recent Greek ancestry (last 1000 years) carried Slavic admixture and thus pulled Apulians into a different cluster. I would have to believe this because of the way that they score on 23andme.

Sicilians I see are getting 5% "Greek and Balkan" at most. Apulians are getting four times as much. This definitely means something.

sebaa
07-08-2019, 10:46 AM
Hello everyone


Interested thread

M'y father's beta results from 23andme below


31492
31493

31494


Many thanks

Sikeliot
07-09-2019, 09:14 PM
Hello everyone


Interested thread

M'y father's beta results from 23andme below


31492
31493

31494


Many thanks

Still has high Greek/Balkan compared to most results!! But the MENA level is more "typical" for southern Italians indeed... more like what I see for most Sicilians (10-20% range). This might be a difference of northern vs southern Apulia, or inland vs coast.

sebaa
07-10-2019, 07:41 AM
My father was born in Turi southwest of Bari and inland from Polignano a Mare. Paternal surname is Rizzi.
I think the results are fairly common too. I don't know if I can share the Gedmatch Eurogenes results on this thread if there is any interest in it.

sebaa
07-11-2019, 05:10 PM
Here below the results through Gedmatch
31619
31620

Apart from Gedmatch I juste thought why not sharing my results from 24genetics although I really don't know how accurate they are in general. My father got like 60% Campania and juste 3% Apulia/Lecce ... would that be so common ?�� 24genetics below
31621

I also got through Myheritage ,(same here, don't know if sephardic jewish would be just noise)
31622

Baraona
07-11-2019, 05:25 PM
My maternal side grandfather is from Oppido Lucano (Basilicata) and I got some porcentages of Greek, Balcanic and Baltic on my autosomal results.
I think it have to be related to the Ottoman Conquest and the bizantine empire refugees until the 1500s.

31623

Greekscholar
07-12-2019, 10:03 PM
The heel of Apulia is very close to Southern Albania. Would it be possible this region received more Byzantine era settlers simply because it was easier to access than other parts of Southern Italy? FWIW, the relationship between Apulia and Southern Albania is pretty clear when you chart the Eurogenes K36 with Taxe de Simitude. I will see if I can find a kit that shows this.

Sikeliot
07-13-2019, 07:00 PM
The heel of Apulia is very close to Southern Albania. Would it be possible this region received more Byzantine era settlers simply because it was easier to access than other parts of Southern Italy? FWIW, the relationship between Apulia and Southern Albania is pretty clear when you chart the Eurogenes K36 with Taxe de Simitude. I will see if I can find a kit that shows this.

I think the similarity to southern Albania is an extension of their similarity to mainland Greeks. The settlement of mainland Greeks there (who would in turn bring partial Slavic DNA to Apulia) has shifted Apulia toward today's Greek population, whereas places like Sicily, Calabria, etc. retain a genetic profile closer to that of the Aegean islands.

Greekscholar
07-16-2019, 04:21 PM
Yes, Albanians and Mainland Greeks can look very similar on ethnicity calculators.

My guess would be that Apulia has a geography more suitable to population movement and settlement than Calabria. I wanted to find some verification, and did so in the book The Italo-Albanian Villages of Southern Italy by George Nasse. Albanians settled in both Calabria and Apulia, but the villages in Apulia were Italian speaking and assimilated by the publication date of 1964, while villages in Calabria kept their language and culture. The author claims geography is the reason. Apulia has a long flat plain that makes transportation much easier than rugged Calabria, where each valley is more isolated from its neighbors.

Long story short, whether Greek or Albanian, I would guess that proximity to the Balkans and less rugged geography has made Apulia subject to more population movement and admixture than Calabria.