PDA

View Full Version : Serious question for genealogists, experts, and project admins.



trdbr1234
07-13-2019, 09:54 PM
I have ran into this same problem with admins inside the Albanian DNA project multiple times and with multiple people inside the project.

Specifically, admins, yes admins in the project insist on these claims.

I ask on knowledgeable, respected and/or ideally individuals with specialized degrees on the field of genetics to please answer these questions.



- Insistation that R1A is Slavic. (I don't mean specific branches but R1a alone)

- Insistation that if you have R1A you are Slavic. (I don't mean specific branches but R1a alone)

- Insistation that if you have R-YP4278, then you are a Slav. (I don't mean specific branches of R-YP4278, but R-YP4278 alone)



To understand my situation, I would like to say that I have nothing but respect for the Slavic speaking world. Russian people are some of the most amazing people I have known. In addition, I have no ill intents on South Slavic peoples as I view them as my own. I say this as an individual raised as Albanian and an individual that has no ill intents with this question. Would be honored to be a Slav. Can you please give your opinions on the accuracy of those 3 statements alone.


Please comment on the above and please list your expertise on the field of genetics.


Autosomal results for context.

https://i.imgur.com/XCcGxz7.png
https://i.imgur.com/J0zen99.png

trdbr1234
07-13-2019, 11:33 PM
Can anyone comment on how Slavic R1a makes you?

It is valid for any major haplogroup. R1B, I2a, E-V13, G etc.

The answer is obvious to me. However, convincing them otherwise is similar to convincing Flat Earthers.

MitchellSince1893
07-13-2019, 11:59 PM
Well it depends. If your 8th great grandfather was R1a and Slavic, but the rest your 1023 8th great grandparents were not Slavic, and none of their descendants had Slavic spouses/mates, then you would 0.1% Slavic.

If the rest of your 1023 8th grandparents were Slavic and all their descendants had Slavic spouses/mates then you would be 100% Slavic. This is a simplified example but you get the idea. Your paternal line is half your ancestry when it relates to your father, 25% of your ancestry when it relates to your paternal grandfather and so on.

Plus not all R1a is Slavic in origin. There's plenty of R1a in Britain for example.
https://i.pinimg.com/originals/ed/cb/db/edcbdbe46a5e35d001ba1e8d5fd47495.png

trdbr1234
07-14-2019, 12:03 AM
Well it depends. If your 8th great grandfather was R1a and Slavic, but the rest your 1023 8th great grandparents were not Slavic, and none of their descendants had Slavic spouses/mates, then you would 0.1% Slavic.

If the rest of your 1023 8th grandparents were Slavic and all their descendants had Slavic spouses/mates then you would be 100% Slavic. This is a simplified example but you get the idea. Your paternal line is half your ancestry when it relates to your father, 25% of your ancestry when it relates to your paternal grandfather and so on.

Thank you Mitchell. We are in full agreement. I think I would call that nationality by autosomal descent.

However, the insinuation is that regardless of your upbringing or nationality, simply having R1A makes you Slavic, because R1A is Slavic. Essentially, if you take a DNA test, and it says R1A in there, you are Slavic. I know amateurs makes these claims all the time, but it is being made by admins in a DNA project.

MitchellSince1893
07-14-2019, 01:37 AM
Thank you Mitchell. We are in full agreement. I think I would call that nationality by autosomal descent.

However, the insinuation is that regardless of your upbringing or nationality, simply having R1A makes you Slavic, because R1A is Slavic. Essentially, if you take a DNA test, and it says R1A in there, you are Slavic. I know amateurs makes these claims all the time, but it is being made by admins in a DNA project.

That's just silly. R1a predates Slavs by 1000s of years.

So a present day individual from Sicily has a Norman I1 haplogroup paternal line dating back to 1130 AD. The rest of his ancestry is 100% Sicilian so he's a Viking? Or there's a Mayan Indian who has a single Conquistor R-DF27 paternal ancestor from 1500s so his 99.95% Mayan ancestry is null and void? I don't think so.

trdbr1234
07-14-2019, 02:12 AM
That's just silly. R1a predates Slavs by 1000s of years.

So a present day individual from Sicily has a Norman I1 haplogroup paternal line dating back to 1130 AD. The rest of his ancestry is 100% Sicilian so he's a Viking? Or there's a Mayan Indian who has a single Conquistor R-DF27 paternal ancestor from 1500s so his 99.95% Mayan ancestry is null and void? I don't think so.

Can't agree more Mitchell.

However, I have explained that R1A predates the Slavs, I have explained that your Y-DNA makes up a tiny portion of your DNA, I have explained that Y-DNA does not equate to nationality, I've explained that Y-DNA cannot have nationalities. However, this is a persistent issue with members and even admin in the Albanian Y-DNA project.

It is more extreme than the examples you are referring to. I am literally saying that admins in Albanian DNA project make claims that R1a itself is Slavic and that if you have R1a itself, that makes you Slavic. As ridiculous as this sounds, this is a real issue with members from that project. It is Flat Earthers gone crazy.

I'm not even sure what citation to use to explain to them that its not the case. Seems to me like common sense everyone should know.

MitchellSince1893
07-14-2019, 02:25 AM
Politics, religion, ethnicity, and/or nationalism cloud some people's minds to the point that they are practically immune to logical discourse and facts. Unfortunately, it is not an uncommon situation in the genetic community.

trdbr1234
07-14-2019, 03:09 AM
Is there any specific paper that makes it clear that R1a cannot be Slavic?

As absurd as this sounds. I find this hard because there are papers that explain the role of R1a branches in Slavic ethno-genesis.

How can it be made clear as day that R1a does not equate to being Slavic to a mass of people whom are prone to flat earth theories?


There is a massive lack of common sense in these people. Needs to be laid out in very simple terms.

pmokeefe
07-14-2019, 01:40 PM
The phylogenetic and geographic structure of Y-chromosome haplogroup R1a (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2987245/)
Abstract

R1a-M420 is one of the most widely spread Y-chromosome haplogroups; however, its substructure within Europe and Asia has remained poorly characterized. Using a panel of 16 244 male subjects from 126 populations sampled across Eurasia, we identified 2923 R1a-M420 Y-chromosomes and analyzed them to a highly granular phylogeographic resolution. Whole Y-chromosome sequence analysis of eight R1a and five R1b individuals suggests a divergence time of ∼25 000 (95% CI: 21 30029 000) years ago and a coalescence time within R1a-M417 of ∼5800 (95% CI: 48006800) years. The spatial frequency distributions of R1a sub-haplogroups conclusively indicate two major groups, one found primarily in Europe and the other confined to Central and South Asia. Beyond the major European versus Asian dichotomy, we describe several younger sub-haplogroups. Based on spatial distributions and diversity patterns within the R1a-M420 clade, particularly rare basal branches detected primarily within Iran and eastern Turkey, we conclude that the initial episodes of haplogroup R1a diversification likely occurred in the vicinity of present-day Iran.

trdbr1234
07-14-2019, 04:03 PM
The phylogenetic and geographic structure of Y-chromosome haplogroup R1a (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2987245/)
Abstract

R1a-M420 is one of the most widely spread Y-chromosome haplogroups; however, its substructure within Europe and Asia has remained poorly characterized. Using a panel of 16 244 male subjects from 126 populations sampled across Eurasia, we identified 2923 R1a-M420 Y-chromosomes and analyzed them to a highly granular phylogeographic resolution. Whole Y-chromosome sequence analysis of eight R1a and five R1b individuals suggests a divergence time of ∼25 000 (95% CI: 21 300–29 000) years ago and a coalescence time within R1a-M417 of ∼5800 (95% CI: 4800–6800) years. The spatial frequency distributions of R1a sub-haplogroups conclusively indicate two major groups, one found primarily in Europe and the other confined to Central and South Asia. Beyond the major European versus Asian dichotomy, we describe several younger sub-haplogroups. Based on spatial distributions and diversity patterns within the R1a-M420 clade, particularly rare basal branches detected primarily within Iran and eastern Turkey, we conclude that the initial episodes of haplogroup R1a diversification likely occurred in the vicinity of present-day Iran.

Thank you, pmokeefe.

Dibran
07-19-2019, 03:13 AM
It all depends on clades. Some users from the project are bonkers and blow it out of proportion. However, certain clades are tied to the migration of particular cultures. Most of the people in the project with this tunnel vision are not admins themselves. For the most part admins make calculated guesses based on the data. But this should only apply in the case of the original bearer that passes the line to the individual and not the individual themselves. As Mitchell illustrated, having a Viking line but 100 percent Sicilian dna does not make one a Viking. Same as African Americans with Anglo Ydna doesn’t make them Anglo. Identity is largely personal and also a product of accumulated ancestry that changes generationally due to intermarriage.


For the Y chromosome by it self, determination is all reliant on data both modern and ancient to extract such understanding. As well as carbon dating methods. The lineage itself is not Slavic. However, select clades of R1a have participated and expanded with the Slavic ethnogenesis. There is of course the fact that these lineages were absorbed and expanded out again over the ages under later cultures as well during the late Middle Ages and recent history.

For instance R1a-Z93/Z280/M458/Z284/L664 are all separated by thousands of years. They all participated in separate cultural ethnogenesis’ yet still have a common forefather to R1a-M417(with the exception of L664 who was a cousin if I’m not mistaken). The oldest M417 currently is found in Ukraine. This is why it is believed to be the Proto-Indo-European patriline. If a older sample emerges elsewhere the narrative is refined. Yet, it is important to view each clade contextually with the data available and make an educated assumption as is the case with scientific method.

To provide an example using my R1a branch. I am L1029, a branch of M458. However, I form an Albanian specific founder clade with a common ancestor living 1100-1200ybp. A German with YP619 has a clade separate from my own yet distantly related to our common forefather L1029. Most YP619 is German and some West Slavic. Likely in their case this was due to assimilated Wendish tribes that likely formed founder effects locally that spread with them. So a British person under this clade could recently have a German ancestor who brought the line to England whilst being distantly related to the Wendish tribesman that implanted the lineage into Germany. It’s like connecting puzzle pieces together.

In my case, a basal L1029 made its way to the Balkans where the forefather was assimilated and had a founder effect among Proto Albanians. This formed a clade that so far is found and spread only by Albanians. Using the carbon dating methods this Albanian forefather lived 1100-1200 years ago. This suggests his non Albanian ancestor settled sometime before then. Whilst there is no pre-migration data, it is assumed due to the overwhelming majority of diversity being in west Slavs and East Germans that it spread from Central Europe with Slavic tribes.

Today Viking samples were released that had L1029 that were autosomally almost entirely East European like. Whilst this doesn’t tell us where the line originated in the Bronze and Iron Age, it does clearly show that the genetic composition of these men was in line with modern populations bearing the same lineage in majority.

Going as far back as M420 is fruitless because there are no ancient confirmation for this lineage. The assumption of its origin in Iran is based on modern Kurds who are basal M420. M198 is even older. We can keep going like a time machine down from the forefather of the forefather of the forefather and so on. Some clades of L1029 are shared between Scandinavians and West Slavs. Historically we know the two intermixed and that Slavic Vikings were a think jointing heathen raiding parties. Further illustrating its occurrence in England.

This applies to every other clade of R1a today and that’s why care is taken to evaluate each case separately. Z280 is even more sporadic in this case. It’s found in Baltic’s predominantly l, then Slavs and now in some ancient Andronovo like Scythian samples, even avar and Magyar conquerors. Yet, it’s important to look at their clades and STR values to establish their matches. Nothing is 100 percent knowable but we tirelessly work to dissect these things and arrive at the most likely scenarios of its delivery from one people to another.

Of course this is merely one ancestor in a line of ancestors by proxy via our MTDNA. So the dna of the delivering forefather is washed away. Of course we are not them. We are what our genetics and identity currently display. This is why mtdna is important because it transmits older dna. But it’s also important to remember autosomal dna has random recombination events, selecting some ancestries over others.

To close out, if all L1029 went extinct and the land was repopulated with my clade, they would eventually be able to tell that all L1029 descended from the direction of Southern Europe where it’s forefathers moved from. L1029 went through near extinction in the Iron Age. Even though it formed 3000 years ago, it’s only survivor was 2000 years ago. All his cousins died out. So our understanding of his origin and migration hinges on modern diversity and spread.

This is why it’s important to view things contextually rather than generally. If we are to be specific, R1a by itself was likely Siberian/Mongol like. His descendants and their descendants evolved over time.

l1029 could have been a Proto Slav, a Balt, or even a Goth in my case, who joined Proto Albanians and whose descendants were a part of the Albanian ethnogenesis. Whereas a distant L1029 cousin became German and formed their own clades.

I recommend everyone do BigY as it removes all confusion and doubt and is the highest resolution testing that can identity unique markers which help branch out the family tree of lineages. Y37 or other basic STR tests will only take you so far. Especially when you have a founder effect you can get false reads, no calls etc.

Ok I’m done with the essay sorry guys lolol