PDA

View Full Version : 5th century Hunnic U106+ sample 2785



Bollox79
07-16-2019, 10:56 PM
Figured I would make a quick thread here in the U106 section since I have updated and found more info on the Hunnic U106+ Kecskemét-Mindszenti-dűlő sample 2785... I have since added it to my aDNA U106+ list and figured I'd highlight it here since not much has been going on in this section for a while!

Kecskemét-Mindszenti-dűlő sample U106+ 2785:

A lonely grave (SNR 2785) of an 18–20-year-old
man was discovered during the preventive
excavation of the expansion of the Mercedes
factory in Kecskemét-Mindszenti-dűlő in 2017.
Based on the attire items (gold hair ring, knife with
a gold sheat-decorated handle, different buckles
covered with gold foil) and the sword buried with
the deceased, the grave can be dated to the Hunnic
period. The sword also indicates his high social
status, who supposed to be a noble member of the
society. Both the finds and the rite of this burial
differs from the traditions of the Sarmatians, who
lived in this area during this period. This may prove
that after the arrival of the Huns into the Carpathian
Basin, they chose one of their nobility to be the
leader of the Sarmatians, who lived this area of the
Danube-Tisza Interfluve for hundreds of years. The
deceased can be this nobility or one of his relatives.
(This bit was from this paper: http://www.ace.hu/am/2019_1/AM-2019-1-MV.pdf)

He is called The Kecskemét Hun Warrior...
https://24.hu/tudomany/2017/05/31/talaltak-egy-embert-aki-ismerhette-attila-kiralyt/?fbclid=IwAR1t-hQsfdFstyekxWijNfOVTRe6iIi2hlKGe_Bdg30BDMa_OZfmkoQ UTkg

Cheers,
Charlie

Edit: I sent a quick e-mail to Alex W. of Big tree to see if he could possibly find anything under U106 for this guy... perhaps?!?

rms2
07-17-2019, 02:14 AM
The Huns absorbed Germanic peoples along their route. They also accepted Germanic warriors into the Gefolge (Posse Comitatus, Männerbund, etc.), i.e., the group of warriors gathered about a chieftain who provided them with food, drink, shelter, weapons, etc., in exchange for their service. Some of the old German Heldensagen revolve around Attila's Gefolge.

In other words, IMHO, that U106 "Hun" was probably of Germanic origin, at least in his y-chromosome line.

Wing Genealogist
07-17-2019, 04:44 AM
Unfortunately, these samples were not tested with NGS or WGS style testing. According to the Results section of the paper

We selected 168 phylogenetically informative Y chromosome SNP-s * defining all major Hg-s and the most frequent Eurasian sub-Hg-s, as well as the following 61autosomal SNP-s: 25 HirisPlex markers suitable for eye and hair color prediction 15 , two SNP-s linked to adult lactase persistence 16 and 34 ancestry informative markers (AIMs) 17 with the Y-SNPs discussed in the following paper

Van Oven, M., Van Geystelen, A., Kayser, M., Decorte, R. & Larmuseau, M. H. Seeing the wood for the trees: A minimal reference phylogeny for the human Y chromosome. Hum. Mutat. 35, 187–191 (2014).

Thus, there is nothing to analyze, unless someone in the future re-tests these remains.

deadly77
07-17-2019, 07:50 AM
The data from the samples in this paper is very poor - they used NGS after a (not very) comprehensive enrichment to get the SNPs that they wanted to define major haplogroups and not a lot else. I looked at the BAM files for the two I1 samples before I realized this, and there wasn't a lot of extra information to be gained. Basically, the only thing I got out of extra analysis was a low read ancestral call for L1237 (1A in one sample, 2A in another) and I believe that's because the position at 21742084 was close to another SNP that they were interested in and had enriched that region for. Out of the 312 SNPs that define I1 before it breaks into subclades, one sample had only two SNPs read that they were targetting, the other one had the same two, plus two low read ones that were captured by being close to a targeted SNP.

I'd say the chances of finding anything useful that isn't already mentioned in the manuscript is extremely low.

spruithean
07-17-2019, 09:27 AM
The Huns absorbed Germanic peoples along their route. They also accepted Germanic warriors into the Gefolge (Posse Comitatus, Männerbund, etc.), i.e., the group of warriors gathered about a chieftain who provided them with food, drink, shelter, weapons, etc., in exchange for their service. Some of the old German Heldensagen revolve around Attila's Gefolge.

In other words, IMHO, that U106 "Hun" was probably of Germanic origin, at least in his y-chromosome line.

Agreed. Atilla definitely had a fair number of Germanic warriors (almost entire tribes) in his ranks. There are two Gepid chieftains with Turko-Mongolic names Giesmus & Mundus, Mundus being a Latinized form of Mundzuk, the name of Attila's father. I think the same warband scenario is likely for the Avar era Hungary and later Magyar era. There were some I1 samples among both Avar and Magyar era results in Hungary and I recall that one of the Magyar era I1 individuals was 67% East Asian and 33% European. I would imagine that as these incoming Steppe people (Hun, Avar, Magyar) absorbed many different lineages as they moved west.


The data from the samples in this paper is very poor - they used NGS after a (not very) comprehensive enrichment to get the SNPs that they wanted to define major haplogroups and not a lot else. I looked at the BAM files for the two I1 samples before I realized this, and there wasn't a lot of extra information to be gained. Basically, the only thing I got out of extra analysis was a low read ancestral call for L1237 (1A in one sample, 2A in another) and I believe that's because the position at 21742084 was close to another SNP that they were interested in and had enriched that region for. Out of the 312 SNPs that define I1 before it breaks into subclades, one sample had only two SNPs read that they were targetting, the other one had the same two, plus two low read ones that were captured by being close to a targeted SNP.

I'd say the chances of finding anything useful that isn't already mentioned in the manuscript is extremely low.

I-L1237, even if a poor read could be a potentially realistic call (but it's safer to side with not using it) in this case given the context and geographical location.

rms2
07-17-2019, 12:51 PM
Agreed. Atilla definitely had a fair number of Germanic warriors (almost entire tribes) in his ranks. There are two Gepid chieftains with Turko-Mongolic names Giesmus & Mundus, Mundus being a Latinized form of Mundzuk, the name of Attila's father. I think the same warband scenario is likely for the Avar era Hungary and later Magyar era. There were some I1 samples among both Avar and Magyar era results in Hungary and I recall that one of the Magyar era I1 individuals was 67% East Asian and 33% European. I would imagine that as these incoming Steppe people (Hun, Avar, Magyar) absorbed many different lineages as they moved west.



I-L1237, even if a poor read could be a potentially realistic call (but it's safer to side with not using it) in this case given the context and geographical location.

The following is slightly off topic, but not entirely so. I imagine the same sort of practice was carried on in Britain by both Britons and Anglo-Saxons. Anglo-Saxons served British tribal "kings", and British warriors served in the warbands of Anglo-Saxon "kings". Thus you have the example of Cerdic of Wessex, an Anglo-Saxon king apparently of Celtic British origin.

Those Britons who were oppressed and made serfs or slaves by the Anglo-Saxons were probably the same sorts of farmer folk who wouldn't have been too well off no matter who was in charge.

rms2
07-17-2019, 01:20 PM
Here are the opening lines of the old Germanic saga, Walther und Hildegunde, as rendered by Gerhard Aick:

Durch die weiten Lande des Hunnenkönigs Etzel erscholl das Heerhorn. Es rief die Unterstanen des mächtigen Herrschers zum Kriegszug. Auf flinken, struppigen Rossen eilten die Krieger herbei und bildeten eine fast unübersehbare Schar. Doch keiner von den Tausenden wusste, wohin die Heerfahrt gehen sollte; dies blieb des Königs Geheimnis.

Stolz flatterte das Königsbanner vor Etzel, als dieser seine Streiter begrüsste. Hoch richtete er sich auf seinem Ross empor, schwang sein Schwert gegen Sonnenuntergang und rief: "Auf nach Westen, in das Land der Franken!"

Translation:

Through the broad lands of the Hun king Attila the Heerhorn (literally Army Horn) sounded. It called the subjects of the mighty ruler to the campaign. The warriors hurried on nimble, shaggy horses and formed an almost incalculable band. But none of the thousands knew where the army journey was going; this remained the king's secret.

Proudly fluttered the royal banner before Attila as it greeted his fighters. He raised himself high on his horse, swung his sword toward the sunset and shouted: "To the west, to the land of the Franks!"

31824 31832

Really super book, full of great stories.

spruithean
07-17-2019, 02:39 PM
The following is slightly off topic, but not entirely so. I imagine the same sort of practice was carried on in Britain by both Britons and Anglo-Saxons. Anglo-Saxons served British tribal "kings", and British warriors served in the warbands of Anglo-Saxon "kings". Thus you have the example of Cerdic of Wessex, an Anglo-Saxon king apparently of Celtic British origin.

Those Britons who were oppressed and made serfs or slaves by the Anglo-Saxons were probably the same sorts of farmer folk who wouldn't have been too well off no matter who was in charge.

It's not farfetched either, there were several Anglo-Saxon kings with Celtic names and some with ambiguous names which currently are best explained through Celtic etymologies (instead of Germanic ones). It would seem more realistic for people to flock to the banner or court of a powerful warlord no matter their language, or perceived differences in culture. I think this is fairly well reflected in many Medieval societies, for example the multi-ethnic army of William the Conqueror in his invasion of England in 1066.