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View Full Version : Viking Age CTS10228 samples



ph2ter
07-18-2019, 09:49 AM
Viking Age CTS10228 samples:



SampleID
mtDNA haplogroups
Haplogroup quality score
Found mtDNA Polymorphisms
Sex
Y chromosomal haplogroups
Country
Region
Group
Age group
Latitude
Longitude


VK53
HV9b
0.8803
263G 750G 1438G 2706G 4769G 7028T 8860G 8994A 15326G 16249C 16311C
Male
I2a1a2b1a1
Sweden
Europe
Gotland.SG_VA
VikingAge
57.63
18.28


VK542
H5a2a
1
263G 456T 750G 1438G 3310T 4336C 4769G 5839T 8860G 15326G 16304C
Male
I2a1a2b1a1a
Ukraine
Europe
Ukraine.SG_VA
VikingAge
51.49
31.31






https://www.dropbox.com/s/zn4rrzwtjptoz8y/I2a1a2b.png?dl=0

ph2ter
07-18-2019, 09:55 AM
Sample
UK
"British-like"/"North Atlantic"
Denmark
"Danish-like"
Sweden
"Swedish-like"
Norway
"Norwegian-like"
Poland
"Polish-like"
Italy
"Southern European-like"
Finland
"Finnish-like"


VK53
0.066
0.002
0.004
0.018
0.635
0.068
0.207


VK542
0.023
0.004
0.004
0.001
0.711
0.246
0.01




Both are Polish-like.

ph2ter
07-18-2019, 07:10 PM
VK542 is :

1234 Chernihiv city, Chernihiv oblast (region), Ukraine
1235 Relevance for the Vikings: Rurik dynasty.
1236 Gleb Svyatoslavich, «Gleb, son of Sviatoslav» (in Ukrainian and Russian languages endings -ovych,
1237 -evych after the name have a meaning «son of») was the 11th century prince of Tmutarakan/Novgorod,
1238 aged 25-35 according to anthropologist analysis.
1239 Sources of information: Skull was found in 1967 in a tomb (stone sarcophagus) near the Saviour’s
1240 Chernihiv cathedral (Fig. S1.3). It was an accident finding during construction works on the territory
1241 of State historical and cultural reserve «Chernihiv Starodavniy» (Ancient Chernihiv).


1247 Prior to the date of finding there was no institution in Chernihiv (USSR) which could professionally
1248 make all the archeological data and stratigraphy. Therefore, there are no archeological reports of these
1249 findings in archives. The skull was sent to Moscow and returned back in a wooden box. For many
1250 years, it laid in this box in the archives and was rediscovered for science only in 2016.
1251 Coordinates: WGS84: 51° 29′ 20.45″ N, 31° 18′ 28″ E; 51.489014°, 31.307778°
1252
1253 Dating (archeological only): The sarcophagus was found in the backyard of the cathedral. The depth
1254 of the upper plate of the sarcophagus is 1.9-2.0 meters from modern surface (Fig. S1.2). Stratigraphy
1255 is slightly damaged by the later breach of the soil: water supply pipes are laid 0.2 m above the
headboard of sarcophagus. Archeologists 1256 date it to 11th century.
1257
1258 Fig. S1.3: Saviour’s Chernihiv cathedral (11th century). Modern view of the cathedral and a backyard
1259 where sarcophagus was found.
1260
1261 Anthropological data: aged 25-35 years, traces of sword wounds are preserved on the skull. All
1262 anthropological measurements and indexes are in the article68.
1263
1264 Samples used for DNA analysis
1265 VK542 Ukraine_Chernigov

ph2ter
07-18-2019, 07:30 PM
VK53:

Kopparsvik
1782 A large number of graves dated to the Viking Age, 800-1150 AD, have been located at the coast of
1783 the Swedish island of Gotland which has always held an important geographic central position as an
1784 island in the Baltic Sea. Archaeological finds show artefacts that are not locally manufactured on the
1785 island, from as early as the Stone Age, 7000-1800 AD, when the island was visited by foreign peoples
1786 who brought their own merchandise. The Viking Age was a very intense historical period for Gotland.
1787 Archaeological finds such as jewelry and coins, mainly manufactured by silver, but also gold, show
1788 traces of trade and exchange contacts with countries mainly from the east, south, and west. Valuable
1789 shiploads also contributed to commotion. Perhaps visiting merchants who never returned home may
1790 have been buried on the island, and Gotlandic merchants may never have returned home from their
1791 travels.
1792 One of the larger grave fields along the coast, just south of the Visby harbour, is Kopparsvik, Visby
1793 76:1, (The Swedish History Museum in Stockholm SHM 16098, and Gotland’s Museum Invnr.
1794 GFC12675). An area that due to several forms of exploitations has been excavated a number of times
1795 under Oscar Vilhelm Wennersten, during the years 1917 and 1918, Greta Arwidsson in 1956, Erik
1796 Nylén in 1963 and Hilkka Pettersson during the period of 1964-1966. The grave field, that has been
1797 fully excavated, is estimated to have been approximately 120 x 60m and divided into two areas, a
1798 northern and a southern region (Fig. S1.6). Skeletal remains and archaeological artefacts have been
1799 collected from 330 excavated and examined graves. It has, based on the approximately 1000
1800 archaeological artefacts, been possible to date the grave field to 900-1050 AD. The archaeological
1801 artefacts illustrate both Gotlandic manufacturing and traces of long distance trade. Several papers of
1802 the archaeological studies e.g. by Pettersson86, Westholm87 and Toplak88 as well as osteological
1803 examinations by Arcini89,90 have been written about Kopparsvik.
1804 Out of the approximately 330 graves excavated at the Kopparsvik grave field in the 1900's, 174 have
1805 been handpicked for an osteological analysis between the years 2013 to 2015, in the research project
1806 Vikingatida Fröjel and Kopparsvik- hälsa, gravläggning och härkomst (Andersson 2015 unpubl.) at
1807 Uppsala University Campus Gotland.
1808 No archaeological trace of settlements has been found in the vicinity of Kopparsvik, and the
environment does not allow for farming. Kopparsvik has, therefore, been 1809 interpreted as a place of
1810 commerce. In correlation to a research project concerning health in archaeological skeletal materials
1811 isotopic investigations were performed on fifteen handpicked individuals from Kopparsvik, at the
1812 Archaeological Research Laboratory, Stockholm University. The measuring of coal and nitrogen
1813 isotopes allowed us an insight of how the diet of the Kopparsvik population may have looked. Were
1814 they fishermen who lived mainly on a marine diet, such as fish and seal, or were they farmers who
1815 consumed terrestrial diet, such as cattle, sheep, pigs, or terrestrial wildlife. The isotopic analysis
1816 results showed an exclusively terrestrial diet (oral report from Professor Kerstin Lidén, Stockholm
1817 University).
1818 Before the DNA examination was performed, detailed dental documentation and dental x-ray was
1819 performed. The dental examinations were performed at the Osteological laboratory, department of
1820 Archaeology and Ancient History, Uppsala University Campus Gotland in cooperation with the
1821 Department of Cardiology, Institute of Odontology, Sahlgrenska Academy at University of
1822 Gothenburg. The dental x-ray examinations were performed at the dental practice
1823 Tandläkarpraktiken, Adelsgatan in Visby.
1824 The skeletal remains are generally very well preserved, which contributes to the good documentation
1825 conditions for sex- and age assessments, stature estimations, and notes of pathological changes
1826 (Andersson 2015 unpubl.).

oz
07-19-2019, 12:37 AM
VK542 is :

1234 Chernihiv city, Chernihiv oblast (region), Ukraine
1235 Relevance for the Vikings: Rurik dynasty.
1236 Gleb Svyatoslavich, «Gleb, son of Sviatoslav» (in Ukrainian and Russian languages endings -ovych,
1237 -evych after the name have a meaning «son of») was the 11th century prince of Tmutarakan/Novgorod,
1238 aged 25-35 according to anthropologist analysis.
1239 Sources of information: Skull was found in 1967 in a tomb (stone sarcophagus) near the Saviour’s
1240 Chernihiv cathedral (Fig. S1.3). It was an accident finding during construction works on the territory
1241 of State historical and cultural reserve «Chernihiv Starodavniy» (Ancient Chernihiv).


1247 Prior to the date of finding there was no institution in Chernihiv (USSR) which could professionally
1248 make all the archeological data and stratigraphy. Therefore, there are no archeological reports of these
1249 findings in archives. The skull was sent to Moscow and returned back in a wooden box. For many
1250 years, it laid in this box in the archives and was rediscovered for science only in 2016.
1251 Coordinates: WGS84: 51° 29′ 20.45″ N, 31° 18′ 28″ E; 51.489014°, 31.307778°
1252
1253 Dating (archeological only): The sarcophagus was found in the backyard of the cathedral. The depth
1254 of the upper plate of the sarcophagus is 1.9-2.0 meters from modern surface (Fig. S1.2). Stratigraphy
1255 is slightly damaged by the later breach of the soil: water supply pipes are laid 0.2 m above the
headboard of sarcophagus. Archeologists 1256 date it to 11th century.
1257
1258 Fig. S1.3: Saviour’s Chernihiv cathedral (11th century). Modern view of the cathedral and a backyard
1259 where sarcophagus was found.
1260
1261 Anthropological data: aged 25-35 years, traces of sword wounds are preserved on the skull. All
1262 anthropological measurements and indexes are in the article68.
1263
1264 Samples used for DNA analysis
1265 VK542 Ukraine_Chernigov

That's very cool. I have two questions:

Is this the subclade of I2 that's the most prevalent in West Balkans?
If this Gleb dude was a direct descendant of Rurik, so much for the N1c theory then and Rurik being of Swedish decent?

ph2ter
07-19-2019, 06:13 AM
That's very cool. I have two questions:

Is this the subclade of I2 that's the most prevalent in West Balkans?
If this Gleb dude was a direct descendant of Rurik, so much for the N1c theory then and Rurik being of Swedish decent?

We know only that VK53 and VK542 are I2a-Din, but are they Din-South or Din-North is unknown.
Different supposed descendants of Rurik have different haplogroups. There in the course of history probably happened some adoption or out of wedlock events.

oz
07-20-2019, 02:29 PM
We know only that VK53 and VK542 are I2a-Din, but are they Din-South or Din-North is unknown.
Different supposed descendants of Rurik have different haplogroups. There in the course of history probably happened some adoption or out of wedlock events.

Too bad apparently the raw data of these samples won't be released anytime soon so we can do admixture calculators with them, if you make them hopefully cuz I don't know how to do those, too much ADD and lazyness.
It's been quite a while since you made a G25 calculator, why so?

ph2ter
07-20-2019, 03:17 PM
Too bad apparently the raw data of these samples won't be released anytime soon so we can do admixture calculators with them, if you make them hopefully cuz I don't know how to do those, too much ADD and lazyness.
It's been quite a while since you made a G25 calculator, why so?
When some interesting samples appear in G25 spreadsheet probably will do some calculator. For example at least some of these Vikings.
Balkan Medieval and Roman samples would be great.

Your I1 subgroup does not appear among Vikings? Where in Europe it is most frequent?

oz
07-20-2019, 04:43 PM
When some interesting samples appear in G25 spreadsheet probably will do some calculator. For example at least some of these Vikings.
Balkan Medieval and Roman samples would be great.

Your I1 subgroup does not appear among Vikings? Where in Europe it is most frequent?

Didn't David add some new samples from the new Scythian paper? Could be used in a new calculator or an updated one?

My I1 haplogroup is ironically the most uncommon in modern Scandinavians so maybe Z63 still spread out from there but it migrated towards mainland Europe long before the Viking age. Or it was just simply more successful at leaving descendants outside of Scandinavia compared to the big two I1a1 and I1a2, who the hell knows it's all just speculations. So far ancient Z63 was confirmed in Italy Collegno and Poland Weilbark allegedly. Maybe Z63 might even be the most common in the Balkans out of all places... just based on observation of the Ftdna haplotree database which has a limited number of testers though, not enough to make any claims with absolute certainty.

ph2ter
07-20-2019, 05:28 PM
Didn't David add some new samples from the new Scythian paper? Could be used in a new calculator or an updated one?

My I1 haplogroup is ironically the most uncommon in modern Scandinavians so maybe Z63 still spread out from there but it migrated towards mainland Europe long before the Viking age. Or it was just simply more successful at leaving descendants outside of Scandinavia compared to the big two I1a1 and I1a2, who the hell knows it's all just speculations. So far ancient Z63 was confirmed in Italy Collegno and Poland Weilbark allegedly. Maybe Z63 might even be the most common in the Balkans out of all places... just based on observation of the Ftdna haplotree database which has a limited number of testers though, not enough to make any claims with absolute certainty.
I did the last Balkan calculator with some new samples:

,PC1,PC2,PC3,PC4,PC5,PC6,PC7,PC8,PC9,PC10,PC11,PC1 2,PC13,PC14,PC15,PC16,PC17,PC18,PC19,PC20,PC21,PC2 2,PC23,PC24,PC25
SOUTHEAST-GERMANY:DEU_MA:AED_106,0.011,0.0131,0.0172,0.0208, 0.0111,0.0075,0.0022,0.0038,0.0014,-0.0052,-0.0038,0.0017,-0.0081,-0.0045,0.0144,0.0064,0.0117,-0.0055,-0.0127,0.0044,-0.0026,0.0103,-0.0141,0.0045,-0.0002
SOUTHEAST-GERMANY:DEU_MA:AED_1135,0.0097,0.013,0.0096,0.0123 ,0.0073,0.0032,0.005,0.0028,-0.002,0.001,-0.0044,0.0022,-0.001,-0.003,-0.0024,-0.0037,-0.0048,0.0053,0.0076,0.0086,-0.0008,0.0054,0.0112,0.0031,0.0027
SOUTHEAST-GERMANY:DEU_MA:AED_249,0.011,0.0125,0.019,0.015,0. 014,0.0085,0.0086,0.0006,0.0017,-0.0058,-0.0073,-0.0016,-0.0065,0.0024,0.0145,-0.0021,-0.0204,-0.0014,0.0033,0.0079,0.0136,-0.0053,0.0001,0.0066,0.0089
SOUTHEAST-GERMANY:DEU_MA:ALH_1,0.0104,0.0128,0.0184,0.0158,0 .0156,0.0083,0.006,-0.0003,0.003,-0.001,-0.0015,0.0023,-0.0057,-0.0089,0.0092,0.0061,-0.004,0.0034,0.0065,0.0078,0.0079,0.0038,0.0014,0. 0023,-0.002
SOUTHEAST-GERMANY:DEU_MA:ALH_10,0.0113,0.013,0.0173,0.0147,0 .0147,0.0086,0.0027,-0.001,0.0014,0.0022,0.0009,0.0023,-0.0076,0.0034,0.0141,-0.0017,-0.0183,0.008,0.0042,-0.0074,0.0031,0.0103,-0.0027,0.0102,-0.0002
SOUTHEAST-GERMANY:DEU_MA:ALH_3,0.0113,0.0111,0.0164,0.0118,0 .0117,0.0067,0.0004,-0.001,-0.0033,-0.0061,-0.0015,-0.0027,-0.0066,-0.0016,0.0126,0.002,-0.013,0.0049,0,-0.0004,0.0032,0.0009,0.0081,0.0127,-0.0088
SOUTHEAST-GERMANY:DEU_MA:NW_255,0.0104,0.0138,0.0161,0.0154, 0.0135,0.0024,0.0088,0.0068,-0.0024,-0.0002,-0.0027,0.0052,-0.0083,-0.0025,0.0193,-0.0046,-0.0193,0.0015,0.0116,0.0026,0.0037,-0.0031,0.0072,0.0192,-0.0015
SOUTHEAST-GERMANY:DEU_MA:STR_316,0.011,0.0123,0.019,0.0178,0 .0131,0.0108,0.0085,-0.0018,0.0001,0,-0.0066,0.0022,-0.0084,-0.003,0.021,-0.0066,-0.0146,0.0056,0.005,0.0023,-0.0011,0.0074,0.0004,0.016,-0.0038
SOUTHEAST-GERMANY:DEU_MA:STR_480,0.0108,0.0133,0.0167,0.0103 ,0.0146,0.0081,0.0008,0.0075,0.0015,0.0044,0.0057, 0.0004,0.0022,-0.0141,0.0111,-0.0005,0.002,0.006,-0.001,-0.0003,0.0153,-0.0007,-0.0015,0.0083,0.0021
SOUTHEAST-GERMANY:DEU_MA:STR_486,0.0106,0.0135,0.0125,0.0171 ,0.0137,0.0074,0.0037,0.0052,0.0051,-0.003,-0.0018,-0.0046,-0.0116,0.0039,0.0053,-0.0016,-0.0217,-0.002,0.0084,0.0067,0.0058,0.0012,-0.016,0.0096,-0.0009
ILLYRIAN-THRACIAN-DACIAN:HRV_Early_IA:I3313,0.0116,0.0149,0.009,-0.005,0.0081,-0.0021,-0.0027,0.0031,0.0018,0.0159,0.0011,0.0078,-0.0142,-0.001,-0.0044,-0.0064,-0.005,0.0039,0.0044,-0.0114,-0.0015,0.0041,0.0012,0.0021,0.0028
ILLYRIAN-THRACIAN-DACIAN:HRV_MBA:I4331,0.0113,0.0149,0.0075,-0.0023,0.0126,-0.0025,-0.003,-0.0026,0.0018,0.0154,0.0038,0.0069,-0.0118,-0.0026,-0.0056,0.0049,0.0062,-0.0024,0.0049,-0.0093,-0.0047,-0.0009,-0.0003,0.0032,-0.001
ILLYRIAN-THRACIAN-DACIAN:HRV_MBA:I4332,0.0106,0.0145,0.0091,-0.0038,0.0125,0.0008,-0.0018,0.0005,0.0047,0.0176,-0.0037,0.0073,-0.0084,-0.0107,-0.0044,0.0081,0.0157,-0.0009,0.0006,-0.0088,-0.001,0.007,-0.0034,0.0017,-0.002
GRECO-ROMAN:ITA_Collegno_MA_o1:CL25,0.0093,0.0149,-0.0078,-0.0164,0.0006,-0.0057,-0.0012,-0.002,0.0006,0.0091,0.004,0.0051,-0.0069,0.0031,-0.0032,-0.0032,0.0073,-0.0048,0.0089,0.0017,-0.0036,0.0076,0.0012,-0.0017,0
GRECO-ROMAN:ITA_Collegno_MA_o1:CL30,0.01,0.0148,-0.007,-0.0176,0.0026,-0.0057,0.0025,0.0008,0.003,0.0084,0.0062,0.0004,-0.0032,0.0024,-0.0014,0.0001,0.0039,0.0022,0.0036,-0.001,-0.001,-0.0072,0.0081,-0.0021,-0.0027
GRECO-ROMAN:ITA_Collegno_MA_o1:CL38,0.0089,0.0142,-0.005,-0.0172,0.0024,-0.0059,-0.0036,-0.0037,-0.0023,0.0079,0.0029,0.0064,-0.0067,-0.0041,-0.0105,0.0007,0.0081,0,-0.0018,0.001,0.0009,0.0051,-0.0017,0.0083,0.0067
SLAVIC:HUN_Avar_Szolad:Av1,0.0117,0.013,0.0175,0.0 153,0.0128,0.0088,0.0038,0.0038,0.0019,-0.0075,-0.0004,-0.0049,0.0056,0.0108,-0.0092,0.004,-0.0041,0.0018,0.0019,0.0017,-0.0012,-0.0023,0.0064,-0.0056,0.0007
SLAVIC:HUN_Avar_Szolad:Av2,0.0118,0.0125,0.0216,0. 0203,0.0115,0.0121,0.0042,0.0025,0.0023,-0.0125,-0.0015,-0.0036,0.0082,0.015,-0.0112,-0.0029,0.0045,0.0036,0.0069,0.0004,0.0012,-0.0022,0.0112,-0.0059,0.0022
ILLYRIAN-THRACIAN-DACIAN:Scythian_MDA:Scy192,0.0109,0.0135,0.0041,-0.0062,0.0051,-0.0046,0.001,0.0003,0.0005,0.0142,0.0058,-0.0004,-0.0047,-0.0065,-0.0098,-0.0073,0.0099,0.0034,-0.0003,0.0028,-0.0094,0.008,-0.0035,-0.0036,0.0015
ILLYRIAN-THRACIAN-DACIAN:Scythian_MDA:Scy197,0.0108,0.0138,0.0078,-0.0074,0.0075,-0.0046,0.0066,-0.0023,0.0011,0.0193,-0.0036,-0.0009,-0.0075,0.0002,-0.0078,-0.0089,0.0011,-0.0001,0.0106,-0.0082,-0.0038,-0.0008,0.0027,-0.0023,-0.0075
ILLYRIAN-THRACIAN-DACIAN:Scythian_MDA:Scy300,0.0102,0.0138,0.0068,-0.0097,0.0054,-0.0019,-0.0007,-0.0032,0.0038,0.0184,0.0043,0.0045,-0.003,-0.0007,-0.007,0.0017,-0.0006,0.0036,0.0098,-0.0052,-0.0033,0.0101,-0.0003,-0.0006,0.0086
ILLYRIAN-THRACIAN-DACIAN:Scythian_MDA:Scy305,0.0104,0.0125,0.0029,-0.0044,0.0058,-0.0024,-0.0005,-0.0005,0.0011,0.0123,-0.0024,0.0049,-0.0094,0.006,-0.0075,0.0005,-0.0042,0.0033,0.013,-0.0066,-0.0074,0.0047,-0.006,0.0062,0.0023
ILLYRIAN-THRACIAN-DACIAN:BGR_IA:I5769,0.0111,0.0155,0.0019,-0.0158,0.0097,-0.0081,0.0018,-0.0006,0.0038,0.0176,-0.0009,0.0038,-0.0094,-0.0022,-0.0111,-0.0011,0.0105,0.0055,0.005,-0.0118,-0.005,0.0038,-0.0064,0.0029,-0.0074
GRECO-ROMAN:DEU_Roman:FN_2,0.0103,0.0149,0.012,0.0001,0. 017,0.0007,0.002,-0.0026,0.0095,0.0154,-0.0015,0.0033,-0.0117,-0.0096,-0.0034,0.0031,0.0072,0.005,-0.0003,0.0004,0.0005,0.0012,-0.0005,-0.0061,-0.0015
SLAVIC:CZE_Early_Slav:RISE569,0.0113,0.0128,0.0181 ,0.0145,0.0089,0.0048,0.0031,0.0061,-0.0009,-0.0101,-0.0005,-0.0029,0.0025,0.0052,-0.0081,-0.0024,0.0089,-0.0016,-0.0019,-0.0038,0.0045,0.0005,0.0014,-0.0008,-0.0056
SLAVIC:RUS_Sunghir_MA:Sunghir6,0.0114,0.0115,0.018 8,0.0186,0.0134,0.0068,0.0039,0.0049,0.0007,-0.0098,0.0003,-0.0054,0.0096,0.0173,-0.0108,-0.0044,0.0001,-0.0017,0.0005,-0.001,-0.0064,-0.0047,0.0103,-0.0089,-0.0049
BALTIC:Baltic_EST_IA:0LS10_1,0.0109,0.0091,0.026,0 .031,0.0116,0.0124,0.0021,0.009,-0.0055,-0.0232,0.0071,-0.0147,0.0202,0.0021,-0.0053,0.0057,0.0212,-0.002,0.0022,0.0053,-0.0001,0.003,-0.0016,-0.014,0.0005
BALTIC:Baltic_EST_IA:V10_2,0.0108,0.0101,0.0263,0. 0268,0.0144,0.0076,0.001,0.0086,0.008,-0.0189,0.0055,-0.0035,0.0216,0.0093,-0.0027,0.0112,0.0135,0.0023,0.0035,0.0139,0.0058,-0.0015,-0.0006,-0.0051,-0.0007
BALTIC:Baltic_EST_IA:V11_1,0.0118,0.0116,0.0226,0. 0281,0.0134,0.0142,0.0041,0.006,-0.0002,-0.0161,0.0004,-0.0159,0.0148,0.0173,-0.0036,-0.006,0.0112,-0.0007,0.0015,0.0068,0.0041,-0.0064,0.0024,-0.0082,-0.0016
BALTIC:Baltic_EST_IA:V12_1,0.0114,0.012,0.0255,0.0 256,0.012,0.0117,0.0056,0.0057,-0.0003,-0.0205,-0.0033,-0.0051,0.0112,0.0181,-0.0053,0.0054,0.0069,0.0022,0.001,0.0088,0.0017,-0.0048,0.0068,-0.0061,-0.0041
BALTIC:Baltic_EST_IA:VII4_1,0.0113,0.0107,0.0245,0 .027,0.0163,0.009,0.0017,0.0057,0.0023,-0.0211,0.0035,-0.0102,0.0097,0.0034,-0.0079,0.0091,0.0074,-0.0042,0.002,0.0124,0.0088,0.0019,0.0098,-0.0019,-0.0015
BALTIC:Baltic_EST_IA:X04_1,0.011,0.0108,0.023,0.02 89,0.0173,0.0116,0.0076,0.0055,0.0007,-0.0195,-0.0017,-0.0046,0.012,0.0196,0.0048,0.0046,0,-0.0002,0.006,0.0092,0.001,0.0017,0.002,-0.0116,-0.0005
NORDIC:SWE_IA:RISE174,0.0108,0.0122,0.0178,0.0181, 0.0134,0.0072,0.0025,0.0033,0.0014,-0.0053,0.0023,0.0013,-0.0047,0.0028,0.015,-0.0051,-0.0118,0.0051,0.0075,0.0002,0.0002,0.0023,0.002,0. 0095,0.0003
BALTIC-INGRIA:RUS_Ingria_IA:VIII5_2,0.0115,0.0111,0.0277, 0.0311,0.0165,0.0169,0.0062,0.0107,0.0032,-0.0279,0.0005,-0.0111,0.0221,0.039,-0.0111,-0.0091,-0.0054,-0.0013,0.0013,0.0022,-0.01,-0.0044,0.0098,-0.0072,0.0002
BALTIC-INGRIA:RUS_Ingria_IA:VIII9_1,0.0102,0.0116,0.0233, 0.0257,0.0128,0.0101,0.0041,0.0086,-0.0042,-0.0139,0.002,-0.0098,0.017,0.0139,-0.003,-0.007,-0.0092,0.0028,0.003,-0.0042,0.0018,-0.0026,0.0008,-0.0106,-0.0046
SLAVIC:Scythian_UKR:MJ14,0.0119,0.0119,0.0123,0.02 03,0.0116,0.0036,0.0052,0.0108,-0.0025,-0.0135,-0.0027,-0.0035,0.0169,0.0056,-0.013,-0.0021,0.0165,0.0037,0.0084,0.0122,0.0008,0.0041,0 .0109,0.001,-0.0073
SLAVIC:Scythian_UKR:scy009,0.011,0.0142,0.0183,0.0 178,0.0146,0.0075,0.0043,0.003,0.0021,-0.0059,-0.002,-0.0036,0.0052,0.0093,0.0009,0.0065,0.0032,-0.0045,-0.0023,0.0027,0.0054,-0.0004,0.0034,-0.0176,0.0026
OSTROGOTH:UKR_Chernyakhiv_Legedzine:MJ19,0.0106,0. 0122,0.0158,0.0195,0.0099,0.009,0.0028,0.0041,-0.0013,-0.0124,-0.0007,-0.0022,0.0062,-0.0016,-0.0014,0.0049,0.0071,-0.0061,0.0055,0,0.0019,0.0041,0.0073,0.0008,0.0135
GRECO-ROMAN:DEU_MA_o:STR_300,0.011,0.0163,-0.0005,-0.017,0.0078,-0.0055,0.0039,0.0045,0.0018,0.0164,0.0021,-0.0004,-0.0065,-0.0046,-0.0214,-0.004,0.0022,-0.0038,-0.0022,-0.0134,-0.0058,0.0078,0.0068,0.0021,-0.0035




Your result:

[1] "distance%=1.213"


Oz


SLAVIC,57.4
ILLYRIAN-THRACIAN-DACIAN,13.4
GRECO-ROMAN,10.8
SOUTHEAST-GERMANY,9
BALTIC-INGRIA,7.2
NORDIC,2.2


or individually:

[1] "distance%=1.2047"


Oz


SLAVIC-RUS_Sunghir_MA-Sunghir6,52.6
ILLYRIAN-THRACIAN-DACIAN-Scythian_MDA-Scy197,7.2
BALTIC-INGRIA-RUS_Ingria_IA-VIII9_1,5.4
GRECO-ROMAN-ITA_Collegno_MA_o1-CL30,4.4
SOUTHEAST-GERMANY-DEU_MA-AED_1135,3.6
ILLYRIAN-THRACIAN-DACIAN-HRV_Early_IA-I3313,3.4
BALTIC-INGRIA-RUS_Ingria_IA-VIII5_2,2.8
SLAVIC-HUN_Avar_Szolad-Av2,2.8
GRECO-ROMAN-ITA_Collegno_MA_o1-CL25,2.4
ILLYRIAN-THRACIAN-DACIAN-Scythian_MDA-Scy305,1.8
NORDIC-SWE_IA-RISE174,1.8
ILLYRIAN-THRACIAN-DACIAN-Scythian_MDA-Scy192,1.6
ILLYRIAN-THRACIAN-DACIAN-Scythian_MDA-Scy300,1.6
GRECO-ROMAN-DEU_MA_o-STR_300,1.4
SOUTHEAST-GERMANY-DEU_MA-ALH_3,1.4
GRECO-ROMAN-ITA_Collegno_MA_o1-CL38,1.2
SLAVIC-CZE_Early_Slav-RISE569,1.2
SOUTHEAST-GERMANY-DEU_MA-AED_249,1
SOUTHEAST-GERMANY-DEU_MA-ALH_10,0.6
SOUTHEAST-GERMANY-DEU_MA-NW_255,0.6
ILLYRIAN-THRACIAN-DACIAN-BGR_IA-I5769,0.4
ILLYRIAN-THRACIAN-DACIAN-HRV_MBA-I4331,0.4
SOUTHEAST-GERMANY-DEU_MA-STR_316,0.4

oz
07-20-2019, 05:41 PM
Thanks!
Mind sharing your result? :)

ph2ter
07-20-2019, 05:54 PM
Thanks!
Mind sharing your result? :)
My:
[1] "distance%=0.7957"


ph2ter


SLAVIC,49.8
SOUTHEAST-GERMANY,19
ILLYRIAN-THRACIAN-DACIAN,11
BALTIC-INGRIA,8
NORDIC,5.2
GRECO-ROMAN,3.8
BALTIC,3.2

[1] "distance%=0.786"


ph2ter


SLAVIC-HUN_Avar_Szolad-Av1,21.2
SLAVIC-RUS_Sunghir_MA-Sunghir6,13.8
SLAVIC-HUN_Avar_Szolad-Av2,8.2
SOUTHEAST-GERMANY-DEU_MA-AED_1135,5.2
BALTIC-INGRIA-RUS_Ingria_IA-VIII9_1,4.8
NORDIC-SWE_IA-RISE174,4.8
BALTIC-INGRIA-RUS_Ingria_IA-VIII5_2,3.8
ILLYRIAN-THRACIAN-DACIAN-Scythian_MDA-Scy305,3.8
SOUTHEAST-GERMANY-DEU_MA-AED_249,3.8
SLAVIC-CZE_Early_Slav-RISE569,3.4
ILLYRIAN-THRACIAN-DACIAN-Scythian_MDA-Scy197,3
SOUTHEAST-GERMANY-DEU_MA-STR_486,3
BALTIC-Baltic_EST_IA-V11_1,2.8
GRECO-ROMAN-ITA_Collegno_MA_o1-CL25,2
ILLYRIAN-THRACIAN-DACIAN-Scythian_MDA-Scy300,2
SOUTHEAST-GERMANY-DEU_MA-ALH_10,2
ILLYRIAN-THRACIAN-DACIAN-HRV_Early_IA-I3313,1.8
SOUTHEAST-GERMANY-DEU_MA-STR_316,1.8
BALTIC-Baltic_EST_IA-X04_1,1.4
SOUTHEAST-GERMANY-DEU_MA-NW_255,1.4
SLAVIC-Scythian_UKR-MJ14,1.2
ILLYRIAN-THRACIAN-DACIAN-BGR_IA-I5769,1
ILLYRIAN-THRACIAN-DACIAN-Scythian_MDA-Scy192,1
SOUTHEAST-GERMANY-DEU_MA-ALH_3,1
GRECO-ROMAN-DEU_MA_o-STR_300,0.6
GRECO-ROMAN-ITA_Collegno_MA_o1-CL38,0.4
SOUTHEAST-GERMANY-DEU_MA-AED_106,0.4
GRECO-ROMAN-ITA_Collegno_MA_o1-CL30,0.2
ILLYRIAN-THRACIAN-DACIAN-HRV_MBA-I4331,0.2

Alain
07-20-2019, 06:08 PM
My:
[1] "distance%=0.7957"


ph2ter


SLAVIC,49.8
SOUTHEAST-GERMANY,19
ILLYRIAN-THRACIAN-DACIAN,11
BALTIC-INGRIA,8
NORDIC,5.2
GRECO-ROMAN,3.8
BALTIC,3.2

[1] "distance%=0.786"


ph2ter


SLAVIC-HUN_Avar_Szolad-Av1,21.2
SLAVIC-RUS_Sunghir_MA-Sunghir6,13.8
SLAVIC-HUN_Avar_Szolad-Av2,8.2
SOUTHEAST-GERMANY-DEU_MA-AED_1135,5.2
BALTIC-INGRIA-RUS_Ingria_IA-VIII9_1,4.8
NORDIC-SWE_IA-RISE174,4.8
BALTIC-INGRIA-RUS_Ingria_IA-VIII5_2,3.8
ILLYRIAN-THRACIAN-DACIAN-Scythian_MDA-Scy305,3.8
SOUTHEAST-GERMANY-DEU_MA-AED_249,3.8
SLAVIC-CZE_Early_Slav-RISE569,3.4
ILLYRIAN-THRACIAN-DACIAN-Scythian_MDA-Scy197,3
SOUTHEAST-GERMANY-DEU_MA-STR_486,3
BALTIC-Baltic_EST_IA-V11_1,2.8
GRECO-ROMAN-ITA_Collegno_MA_o1-CL25,2
ILLYRIAN-THRACIAN-DACIAN-Scythian_MDA-Scy300,2
SOUTHEAST-GERMANY-DEU_MA-ALH_10,2
ILLYRIAN-THRACIAN-DACIAN-HRV_Early_IA-I3313,1.8
SOUTHEAST-GERMANY-DEU_MA-STR_316,1.8
BALTIC-Baltic_EST_IA-X04_1,1.4
SOUTHEAST-GERMANY-DEU_MA-NW_255,1.4
SLAVIC-Scythian_UKR-MJ14,1.2
ILLYRIAN-THRACIAN-DACIAN-BGR_IA-I5769,1
ILLYRIAN-THRACIAN-DACIAN-Scythian_MDA-Scy192,1
SOUTHEAST-GERMANY-DEU_MA-ALH_3,1
GRECO-ROMAN-DEU_MA_o-STR_300,0.6
GRECO-ROMAN-ITA_Collegno_MA_o1-CL38,0.4
SOUTHEAST-GERMANY-DEU_MA-AED_106,0.4
GRECO-ROMAN-ITA_Collegno_MA_o1-CL30,0.2
ILLYRIAN-THRACIAN-DACIAN-HRV_MBA-I4331,0.2

PC1,PC2,PC3,PC4,PC5,PC6,PC7,PC8,PC9,PC10,PC11,PC1 2,PC13,PC14,PC15,PC16,PC17,PC18,PC19,PC20,PC21,PC2 2,PC23,PC24,PC25
Alain_E21436_scaled,0.134311,0.135065,0.067882,0.0 62985,0.036314,0.025379,0.00799,0.014076,0.0045,-0.014579,-0.004872,-0.004046,0.005798,0.018992,-0.007057,-0.005569,-0.009257,0.002787,-0.002263,-0.004627,0.002995,-0.00136,-0.001356,-0.000843,-0.001916
Alain_dad_E27758_scaled,0.133173,0.12491,0.073539, 0.066215,0.038776,0.023985,0.00987,0.019615,0.0040 9,-0.023873,-0.003735,-0.005995,0.012339,0.023809,-0.010315,0.011668,0.01004,-0.002154,-0.009679,0.001126,-0.003494,-0.002102,0.004437,0.001566,-0.002036

,PC1,PC2,PC3,PC4,PC5,PC6,PC7,PC8,PC9,PC10,PC11,PC1 2,PC13,PC14,PC15,PC16,PC17,PC18,PC19,PC20,PC21,PC2 2,PC23,PC24,PC25
Alain:E21436,0.0118,0.0133,0.018,0.0195,0.0118,0.0 091,0.0034,0.0061,0.0022,-0.008,-0.003,-0.0027,0.0039,0.0138,-0.0052,-0.0042,-0.0071,0.0022,-0.0018,-0.0037,0.0024,-0.0011,-0.0011,-0.0007,-0.0016
Alain_dad:E27758,0.0117,0.0123,0.0195,0.0205,0.012 6,0.0086,0.0042,0.0085,0.002,-0.0131,-0.0023,-0.004,0.0083,0.0173,-0.0076,0.0088,0.0077,-0.0017,-0.0077,0.0009,-0.0028,-0.0017,0.0036,0.0013,-0.0017
,PC1,PC2,PC3,PC4,PC5,PC6,PC7,PC8,PC9,PC10,PC11,PC1 2,PC13,PC14,PC15,PC16,PC17,PC18,PC19,PC20,PC21,PC2 2,PC23,PC24,PC25

A new sample, I like ph2ter Calc.

ph2ter
07-20-2019, 06:15 PM
[1] "distance%=0.9854"


Alain:E21436


SLAVIC,55
BALTIC-INGRIA,23.4
SOUTHEAST-GERMANY,17.2
NORDIC,2.2
ILLYRIAN-THRACIAN-DACIAN,1.6
GRECO-ROMAN,0.6

[1] "distance%=1.4459"


Alain_dad:E27758


BALTIC,46.2
SLAVIC,42
BALTIC-INGRIA,5.6
ILLYRIAN-THRACIAN-DACIAN,2.4
SOUTHEAST-GERMANY,2.4
OSTROGOTH,1
GRECO-ROMAN,0.4


[1] "distance%=0.956"


Alain:E21436


SLAVIC-HUN_Avar_Szolad-Av1,28.8
BALTIC-INGRIA-RUS_Ingria_IA-VIII9_1,18.6
SLAVIC-CZE_Early_Slav-RISE569,16
SOUTHEAST-GERMANY-DEU_MA-STR_486,6.8
SLAVIC-RUS_Sunghir_MA-Sunghir6,6.2
BALTIC-INGRIA-RUS_Ingria_IA-VIII5_2,5.8
SOUTHEAST-GERMANY-DEU_MA-ALH_10,5
NORDIC-SWE_IA-RISE174,3.2
SOUTHEAST-GERMANY-DEU_MA-AED_249,3
ILLYRIAN-THRACIAN-DACIAN-HRV_Early_IA-I3313,1.4
GRECO-ROMAN-DEU_MA_o-STR_300,1.2
SOUTHEAST-GERMANY-DEU_MA-ALH_3,1.2
SOUTHEAST-GERMANY-DEU_MA-STR_316,0.8
ILLYRIAN-THRACIAN-DACIAN-Scythian_MDA-Scy305,0.6
SLAVIC-HUN_Avar_Szolad-Av2,0.6
SOUTHEAST-GERMANY-DEU_MA-NW_255,0.4
ILLYRIAN-THRACIAN-DACIAN-BGR_IA-I5769,0.2
SOUTHEAST-GERMANY-DEU_MA-AED_106,0.2


[1] "distance%=1.4213"


Alain_dad:E27758


BALTIC-Baltic_EST_IA-V12_1,43.2
SLAVIC-CZE_Early_Slav-RISE569,23.2
SLAVIC-HUN_Avar_Szolad-Av1,12
BALTIC-INGRIA-RUS_Ingria_IA-VIII5_2,6.6
BALTIC-Baltic_EST_IA-V10_2,4.4
SOUTHEAST-GERMANY-DEU_MA-AED_106,3
SLAVIC-RUS_Sunghir_MA-Sunghir6,2
GRECO-ROMAN-DEU_MA_o-STR_300,1.4
ILLYRIAN-THRACIAN-DACIAN-BGR_IA-I5769,1.2
OSTROGOTH-UKR_Chernyakhiv_Legedzine-MJ19,1.2
ILLYRIAN-THRACIAN-DACIAN-HRV_MBA-I4331,0.6
ILLYRIAN-THRACIAN-DACIAN-HRV_MBA-I4332,0.6
GRECO-ROMAN-ITA_Collegno_MA_o1-CL38,0.4
ILLYRIAN-THRACIAN-DACIAN-Scythian_MDA-Scy305,0.2

Boreas
07-20-2019, 10:07 PM
Viking Age CTS10228 samples:



SampleID
mtDNA haplogroups
Haplogroup quality score
Found mtDNA Polymorphisms
Sex
Y chromosomal haplogroups
Country
Region
Group
Age group
Latitude
Longitude


VK53
HV9b
0.8803
263G 750G 1438G 2706G 4769G 7028T 8860G 8994A 15326G 16249C 16311C
Male
I2a1a2b1a1
Sweden
Europe
Gotland.SG_VA
VikingAge
57.63
18.28


VK542
H5a2a
1
263G 456T 750G 1438G 3310T 4336C 4769G 5839T 8860G 15326G 16304C
Male
I2a1a2b1a1a
Ukraine
Europe
Ukraine.SG_VA
VikingAge
51.49
31.31



https://www.dropbox.com/s/zn4rrzwtjptoz8y/I2a1a2b.png?dl=0

Very interesting - since the I2-line is the oldest y-dna known from the Fenno-Scandian 'sub-continent'.

Using the Scandinavian penninsula as a parameter it's difficult to avoid a close association between the maritime culture, historically associated to the (scandinavian) goths, with the y-dna I-group. Following the gothic languages (dialects) around the coasts of Fenno-Scandia we find y-dna I1 to be prominent, from 'coast-to-coast'.

Adding the later farming-commuities, produced by dynasties of R1a (north) and R1b (south), we're pretty close to the three y-dna lines needed to describe 97% of all Scandianvian men. Besides, the same three lines can very well explain the patrilines nessecary to produce the anttropogenic traces producing the first "swedes" versus "danes" versus "goths". It's worth noting that BOTH farming-cultures came to share language with the maritime Goths of the western Baltics, rather than the FU language of the maritime Wends/Finns populating the Eastern Baltics.

The oldest and most royal lines of the Danish/German cattle-cultures are well known to descend from an ancestral R1b. Thus it's it's an ample suggestion that the ancient kingdom of Sweden was ran by "a house" (patri-line, 'sword-line' aka 'seed-line' aka 'genea-logy') producing and being produced by R1a+. Accordingly - if Rurik was from the House of Uppsala he should be R1a. As tests have shown, there's an older line of the Monomakhs represented by the House of Chernigov.

This seems to qualify R1a as the 'royal line' (origin) of the "Linga-aet" as well as the later "Yng-linga-aet", from which all "Lingua-people" - would descend; "from king to thrall". It's worth noting that R1a seem to represent the agriculture spreading swithin the colder part of "the temperate climate-zone", while the branches of R1b seem to utilize the wider lowlands with the milder, atlantic, climate-zone - south of the North Sea, the Baltic Ocean, the Volga interfluve and the Caspian Sea. Thus we find a line of R1b introducing the larger cattle and horses to the plains of Ukraine and Armenia, while the R1a-branches - breeding cold-blooded cattle - were able to utilize the northern plains and valleys, from the Scottish highlands to the Siberian taiga, effectively producing "a Greater Sweden" - also known as "Ros-land".


Thus the unifying effort made to produce a common defense of the eastern agriculturalists - as well as their FU neighbours - merging the old "Gardarike" (Ukraine) and the old "Rosland" into the Novgorod-Kiev-alliance known as "Gardarike-Rosland" - with a common king was elected from the first House of the "Linga-family" in ancient Uppsala.

When the first latin scribes described the Scandinavian penninsula they usually summarized it as "three different kingdoms".

Two of them was always danes and suedes, the third could be 'the goths' or only the northern goths, known as 'northmen', norsemen' and 'norwegians'. Their old. indigenous kinglines are unknown, though - as the Goths still remaining on the penninsula after the Roman wars and the Migration-period - chose to (politically) merge with the Swedish kingdom. 700 yrs later, at the end of the holy Roman conquest of Fenno-Scandia (too) - the twin-kingdom of Goths and Swedes still in Uppsala managed to merge with the Finnish "ur-adel" ('indigenous royality') to reproduce the historical alliance of three ancient kingdoms ("Three Crowns") - known to populate the northern shores of the Baltic since 'time origin'.

The family elected to become the kingline of this new, fenno-scandic constitution - as prescribed and/or sanctioned by Rome - was known as the "House of Munsoe". Their y-dna-line was I1 - which means that the bilingual, gothic nobility - once running (all) the trade across the Baltic - were still existant. Their new role as "royals" to both Swedes and Finns - as of 1249 AD - seems to underline the historical position of the renown Gothic traders, mediating goods, news and knowledge between Suedes (R1a) and Finns (N1) since the late Mesolithic.

As the bifurication of y-dna I2 and I1 would produce 'goths', we may ask from where their ancestral "proto-goths" - still carrying I2 - actually lived, if not around the Scandinavian provinces still called "gothic". Thus we may ask if the 10.500 yrs old y-dna I2 from Hummervikholmen represents (a branch from) a core-population that eventually produced y-dna I1. (So far the oldest "proto-I1" seem to be 7.500 yrs old Stora Forvar - from a small island north of Gotland.)

If so, there should be a continuity within the patri-lines of the Scandinavian Genome, that started evolving with the SHG, already. Add the strong growth of y-dna R1 during the neolithic and the basic structure of the present Scanianvian Genome is already there. It's basically divided between I2/I1, R1a and R1b - and hardly any other. Besides the Finns - obviously - who has been the most successful in containing, conserving and keeping their indigenous culture as well as nature - shilded behind swarms of mosquitos, an incomprehensible, FU language and some old noble-families of the indigenous House of Finns - with a demographical distribution still visible as y-dna N1.

https://www.nature.com/articles/s42003-019-0399-1

Alain
07-21-2019, 06:26 AM
[1] "distance%=0.9854"


Alain:E21436


SLAVIC,55
BALTIC-INGRIA,23.4
SOUTHEAST-GERMANY,17.2
NORDIC,2.2
ILLYRIAN-THRACIAN-DACIAN,1.6
GRECO-ROMAN,0.6

[1] "distance%=1.4459"


Alain_dad:E27758


BALTIC,46.2
SLAVIC,42
BALTIC-INGRIA,5.6
ILLYRIAN-THRACIAN-DACIAN,2.4
SOUTHEAST-GERMANY,2.4
OSTROGOTH,1
GRECO-ROMAN,0.4


[1] "distance%=0.956"


Alain:E21436


SLAVIC-HUN_Avar_Szolad-Av1,28.8
BALTIC-INGRIA-RUS_Ingria_IA-VIII9_1,18.6
SLAVIC-CZE_Early_Slav-RISE569,16
SOUTHEAST-GERMANY-DEU_MA-STR_486,6.8
SLAVIC-RUS_Sunghir_MA-Sunghir6,6.2
BALTIC-INGRIA-RUS_Ingria_IA-VIII5_2,5.8
SOUTHEAST-GERMANY-DEU_MA-ALH_10,5
NORDIC-SWE_IA-RISE174,3.2
SOUTHEAST-GERMANY-DEU_MA-AED_249,3
ILLYRIAN-THRACIAN-DACIAN-HRV_Early_IA-I3313,1.4
GRECO-ROMAN-DEU_MA_o-STR_300,1.2
SOUTHEAST-GERMANY-DEU_MA-ALH_3,1.2
SOUTHEAST-GERMANY-DEU_MA-STR_316,0.8
ILLYRIAN-THRACIAN-DACIAN-Scythian_MDA-Scy305,0.6
SLAVIC-HUN_Avar_Szolad-Av2,0.6
SOUTHEAST-GERMANY-DEU_MA-NW_255,0.4
ILLYRIAN-THRACIAN-DACIAN-BGR_IA-I5769,0.2
SOUTHEAST-GERMANY-DEU_MA-AED_106,0.2


[1] "distance%=1.4213"


Alain_dad:E27758


BALTIC-Baltic_EST_IA-V12_1,43.2
SLAVIC-CZE_Early_Slav-RISE569,23.2
SLAVIC-HUN_Avar_Szolad-Av1,12
BALTIC-INGRIA-RUS_Ingria_IA-VIII5_2,6.6
BALTIC-Baltic_EST_IA-V10_2,4.4
SOUTHEAST-GERMANY-DEU_MA-AED_106,3
SLAVIC-RUS_Sunghir_MA-Sunghir6,2
GRECO-ROMAN-DEU_MA_o-STR_300,1.4
ILLYRIAN-THRACIAN-DACIAN-BGR_IA-I5769,1.2
OSTROGOTH-UKR_Chernyakhiv_Legedzine-MJ19,1.2
ILLYRIAN-THRACIAN-DACIAN-HRV_MBA-I4331,0.6
ILLYRIAN-THRACIAN-DACIAN-HRV_MBA-I4332,0.6
GRECO-ROMAN-ITA_Collegno_MA_o1-CL38,0.4
ILLYRIAN-THRACIAN-DACIAN-Scythian_MDA-Scy305,0.2

Scythian009_Ukraine 28
EMA_Czech_RISE569 10.4
AV2_Hungary_Szolad 9.4
AV1_Hungary_Szolad 4.4
Scythian010_Ukraine 4.4
DA29_Golden-Horde_European 4.2
DA191_Hungary_Scythian 3.8
Sungir6_Medieval_Russian 3.8
Baiuvarii_Germanic_AEd_92 3.4
EMA_Czech_Slav_RISE568 3
DA112_Hallstatt-Bylany_800BC 2.8
IA_Britain_York_6DRIF22 1.8
LBA_Lithuania_RISE598 1.8
SZ24_Longobard 1.6
LBA_Denmark_RISE276 1.4
DA171_Lithuania_350650AD 1.2
DA199HungaryMedieval 1
Baiuvarii_Germanic_ALH_1 0.8
Baiuvarii_Germanic_STR_355 0.8
Kivutkalns_153_Latvia_BA 0.8
IA_Sarmatian_PR3_I0575__Pokrovka 0.8
Visigoth_I12163 0.8
EMA_Alpine_AED_513 0.6
IA_Eastkazachstan_Is2 0.6
BA_Hungary_RISE254 0.4
BA_Portugal_Vale_Ouro 0.4
DA119_Germanic_chieftain_Poprad 0.4
I1819_Mesolithic_Ukrain 0.4
IA_Wielbark_Kow_45_PL 0.4
Mesolithic_CCC_EstoniaKudrukula2_MA974 0.4
Mesolithic_Sweden_Ajvide59 0.4

Nearly indectial to this from YourDNA Portal

GOOD Work ph2ter

artemv
07-22-2019, 01:42 AM
Very interesting - since the I2-line is the oldest y-dna known from the Fenno-Scandian 'sub-continent'.

There is no connection between SHG and Viking Age I2a1a2b1a1(CTS10228).
Scandinavian hunter-gather M423 lines are likely a dead-end.
Those individs are of typical Slavic happlogroup and are also Slavic autosomally.

Returning to the VA I2-Dins.
I hope there will be more findings of Rurikovich dynasty people.
At the moment it seems that the skull belongs to some other person, not Gleb Svyatoslavich.
It is ok that at this period of time members of ruling dynasty were already mostly Slavic, but it this case we see numbers that are close to 0 for all 3 Scandinavian ancestries.

After reading the description, I started thinking about possible modern DNA contamination of skull from Chernigov. It was excavated by non-professionals in USSR 60-s, who did not even make proper records, then sent it from one place to another.

Boreas
07-22-2019, 06:18 AM
There is no connection between SHG and Viking Age I2a1a2b1a1(CTS10228).
Scandinavian hunter-gather M423 lines are likely a dead-end.

Why so?



Those individs are of typical Slavic happlogroup and are also Slavic autosomally.

How can haplogroups become "slavic"?!

"Slavic" is not an etnicity, but a pretty young language - developed at the end of a millennia filled with intrusions, wars and migration - finally haunting all shores of the Black Sea.

After the Persian and Roman invasions of the Black Sea area (Anatolia and the Caspian depression, Dacia the Danubian depression - respectively) - the fall of the (West) Roman Empire represented a large re-organisation of both Western and Eastern Europe. In those days the trade of the Black Sea was dominated by Konstantinopel - who would produce a truce with their old, northern neigbours - historically known a "Scyti" in Greece and "Saka" and "Saka-lav" in Persia.

The first Indo-Iranian influxes are definitly present as the Persians pushed west to present Rumenia. Before Alexander returned the area to a Greek dominance, producing the "cyrilian" Greek. North of the Sea there were the IE "bulgars" (R1b) and the FU "ounugurs" aka "huns" (N1c). The latter had already merged with the "Baltic House" from the Goths (I2) - producing a mix of IE/gothic and FU/hunnic known as "Ostro-gothic". (Documented by Wulfilas ostrogotic bible, Codex Argentus, written around 370 AD.)

As the Visigoths, Huns and Ostrogoths end the Roman tyranny there were several mixed languages surrounding the Black Sea. As peaceful relations and trade gets restored the pidgin languages around the Black Sea needs a unifying normative to enhane travel and trade. Which ends up with Cyril and Method utilizing an IE normative allowing both Satem and Centum isoglosses to appear.

Like the new "Lingua Franca" developed between Italy and Belgium the new language-norm of SE Europe was developed - first in oral then i written form - to serve as a common language of travel and trade around the Black Sea - as well as through the rivers across the Polish-Ukrainaian depression - between the Baltic and the Black Sea seaports.

Thus we got the Saka-lavi/Sklavi/Sklavin/Slavon/Slavic langauge-norm behind the present branches of the old, "Scyto-Slavic" basis - comparable to the dialectial variations of other new combination-langauages, such as the French, the Celtic and the English.




Returning to the VA I2-Dins.

It is ok that at this period of time members of ruling dynasty were already mostly Slavic, but it this case we see numbers that are close to 0 for all 3 Scandinavian ancestries.


I2-din may be the result of the ostro-gothic migrations to the Adriatic Sea - using the old "Amber route" of their northern allies, the "Vistulan Veneti". (In eastern sources known as van/ouan/ounugur/hun while western (latin/norse) sources name them veneti/venedae/vend/ven - from whom the 'van-dali' branched off.) It's well known that the Ostrogoths managed to defend their realms on the eastern shores of the Adriatic against the bysantian re-conquista of Rome in the late 6th century, while their cousins the Longshanks (Lombards) managed to survive around the northern and western shores of the Adriatic.

Now it seems that both the Ostrogoths and the Lombards were of "gotic" origin - as the latter belonged to y-dna I1. Moreover - it's woth noting that the massive emigration of Goths from Scandinavia during Late Roman/Merovingian time seem to have changed their royal progenitor from y-dna I2 to I1.

---

Several distinct Y-DNA halogroups were found among members of the Rurikids:

R1a1 Princes of Chernigov
R1a1 Shuysky Princes
R1a1 Drucki Princes
R1a1 Belosselsky-Belozersky Princes R1a1 Princes of Chernigov
https://zbigniewlolkowski.wordpress.com/…/masovian-nobilit…/

Janusz III of Masovia, Polish prince from Ruriks western branch (Piast), was R1a1 M198. Looking at the distribution of M198->Z282/Z284 it's quite clear that a 'Swedish origin' of the cattle-farmers populating Russia (once called "Greater Sweden") was fully possible, if not plausible.

artemv
07-22-2019, 01:35 PM
There is no connection between SHG and Viking Age I2a1a2b1a1(CTS10228).
Scandinavian hunter-gather M423 lines are likely a dead-end.


Why so?


There are several reasons:
1.Because there are methods like "molecular clock" that give us estimation of two important moments - time when happlogroup was formed and TMRCA (time when most recent common ancestor lived).
All the tens of millions of modern people who carry Y3120 branch come from a single person, who lived 2200 ybp.
SHG are a very ancient group, if I2a from them was alive, it would have much, much older TMRCA.

2. I myself checked the *.bam file from one of the late SHG, from Steigen, who lived about 4000 BCE.
He had last common ancestor with currently living I2, who lived about 13 900 ybp. This means about 8 000 years old dead-end branch.
This is not an example of a case, when we have relatively modern man classified as BT, because of poor DNA preservation and mostly no calls. He had negative downstream calls proving he does not belong to any known downstream branch.

3. Modern I2-Y3120 live in Slavic countries, or countries where Slavs migrated en masse in historical times - like Hungary (where Slavs lived before Hungarians), Greece (Slavs invaded there in 6th century CE) e.t.c.
For example we know about Russia that I2-Y3120 is more frequent in Slavs than in any non-slav minority, this supports idea that minorities got this happlogroup from Russians (or other Slavs), but not vice versa.



How can haplogroups become "slavic"?!

"Slavic" is not an etnicity, but a pretty young language - developed at the end of a millennia filled with intrusions, wars and migration - finally haunting all shores of the Black Sea.

Not all shores of Black Sea.

The fact that I2-Y3120 is a Slavic haplogroup doesn't mean that all modern I2-Y3120 speak Slavic languages. This just means their direct male line ancestors where part of some Slavic group in the first millenium CE.
And by the way, Slavic does not mean just language. We can see even now that most groups of East and West Slavs are very close genetically. Southern Slavs have significant non-Slav admixture, but they still have very significant common ancestry with other Slavs.

I will not comment here what you wrote about history, this is mostly out of scope for the I2-Din discussion.



I2-din may be the result of the ostro-gothic migrations to the Adriatic Sea - using the old "Amber route" of their northern allies, the "Vistulan Veneti". (In eastern sources known as van/ouan/ounugur/hun while western (latin/norse) sources name them veneti/venedae/vend/ven - from whom the 'van-dali' branched off.) It's well known that the Ostrogoths managed to defend their realms on the eastern shores of the Adriatic against the bysantian re-conquista of Rome in the late 6th century, while their cousins the Longshanks (Lombards) managed to survive around the northern and western shores of the Adriatic.


We have Hunn aDNA, it is a mixture of definitely Asian and East European DNA, in various proportions. Hunns and Venedi are differnt people.
Currently we have enough aDNA from Bronze Age and other pre-Viking era in Scandinavia, and see no I2-M423 outside Scandinavian hunter gathers.



Moreover - it's woth noting that the massive emigration of Goths from Scandinavia during Late Roman/Merovingian time seem to have changed their royal progenitor from y-dna I2 to I1.


I do not understand.



Janusz III of Masovia, Polish prince from Ruriks western branch (Piast), was R1a1 M198.

So? M198 is a happlogroup that was formed 14000 ybp, TMRCA 8600 ybp. Hundreds of millions people in India are also M198.



Looking at the distribution of M198->Z282/Z284 it's quite clear that a 'Swedish origin' of the cattle-farmers populating Russia (once called "Greater Sweden") was fully possible, if not plausible.
Not clear for me.

Plashiputak
07-22-2019, 02:39 PM
No such thing as slavs. It's a term invented in 17th century for Russian imperialism. Even if the language is close, it's not because it had common root, but because it was imposed onto the defeated populations. The first Glagolitic was complete shitshow, that's why Cyrilic was made by Cyril's students. Then it was spread by the First Bulgarian Empire,which in that time was 3rd biggest country. After that Russia started doing the same thing. Old Church Slavonic is still understood in Macedonia and Bulgaria, where Eastern and Western Slavs have hard time listening to it. Even the official Bulgarian language went thru transformations in the last 100 years, to become more russian-like.

Another example, the Bulgars led more wars against other slavic tribes in the Balkans, rather than the Byzantines. Why would they do that, if they made an alliance with anonymous "7 Slavic Tribes" just a year ago? The so called slavs, were never ever united in a single country. They always miraculously appear in Greek, Avar, Bulgar, Magyar, Rus states with greater numbers, but somehow cannot form a state by their own.
You cannot just lump different tribes and people, into ever changing term for "slavs".

Couple of years ago the R1a branch was slavic, because it was found in every slavic speaking country. Then it became the I2a1 because of the young TMRCA. Even the N1c was slavic at one point. Now I read that the scythians and sarmatians were proto-slavs. So which one is it exactly? The ever changing language, or Y-haplo or what exactly defines it?

artemv
07-22-2019, 05:45 PM
No such thing as slavs. It's a term invented in 17th century for Russian imperialism. Even if the language is close, it's not because it had common root, but because it was imposed onto the defeated populations. The first Glagolitic was complete shitshow, that's why Cyrilic was made by Cyril's students. Then it was spread by the First Bulgarian Empire,which in that time was 3rd biggest country. After that Russia started doing the same thing. Old Church Slavonic is still understood in Macedonia and Bulgaria, where Eastern and Western Slavs have hard time listening to it. Even the official Bulgarian language went thru transformations in the last 100 years, to become more russian-like.

First of all, linguists are able to tell between languages that have common root and languages that got some similarities because borrowing terms or even grammatic rules. Linguists agree, that Slavic is a natural group of languages that comes from a single language that existed some time ago.



Another example, the Bulgars led more wars against other slavic tribes in the Balkans, rather than the Byzantines. Why would they do that, if they made an alliance with anonymous "7 Slavic Tribes" just a year ago? The so called slavs, were never ever united in a single country. They always miraculously appear in Greek, Avar, Bulgar, Magyar, Rus states with greater numbers, but somehow cannot form a state by their own.
You cannot just lump different tribes and people, into ever changing term for "slavs".

Slavs were united before any state existed on the territory where they lived. But they were a single group of people, group of tribes, that one day existed and had a common distinctive culture, common laguage, and they rapidly expanded in the East Europe/Balkans. Unfortunately we do not have Early Slavs DNA because they shared cremation tradition.
The descendant cultures had some things in common because of shared heritage. In some periods ideas of pan-slavism became popular, later these ideas lost their popularity.



Couple of years ago the R1a branch was slavic, because it was found in every slavic speaking country. Then it became the I2a1 because of the young TMRCA. Even the N1c was slavic at one point. Now I read that the scythians and sarmatians were proto-slavs. So which one is it exactly? The ever changing language, or Y-haplo or what exactly defines it?

There is no one and 100% true theory in any science, in history either. Paleogenetics is a relatively new science, many theories turn out to be wrong or not 100% correct. Look at changes in biological creatures classification - so many things changed since we got able to sequence the DNA.

But labling Y-happlogroups is still a reasonable thing to do.
I2a1 is not Slavic, only single one of its sub-branches, I2-Y3120. R1a is not Slavic either, but few its younger subbranches can be called Slavic. Some people here might say "R1a is Slavic" to be short, but from formal point of view this is not correct, even if in some cases noone objects.
N1c is a very old happlogroup that cannot be called Slavic because it emerged long before Early Slavs did. I do not know who called N1c "Slavic". As we currently think it was not present in those Early Slav groups, so no N1c sub-branches that could be called Slavic. There are some N1c sub-branches common in Northern Russia, they can be called Russian, but not Slavic. Russian branch of Finnic (for example) descent, something like this.

eastara
07-27-2019, 07:18 AM
No such thing as slavs. It's a term invented in 17th century for Russian imperialism. Even if the language is close, it's not because it had common root, but because it was imposed onto the defeated populations. The first Glagolitic was complete shitshow, that's why Cyrilic was made by Cyril's students. Then it was spread by the First Bulgarian Empire,which in that time was 3rd biggest country. After that Russia started doing the same thing. Old Church Slavonic is still understood in Macedonia and Bulgaria, where Eastern and Western Slavs have hard time listening to it. Even the official Bulgarian language went thru transformations in the last 100 years, to become more russian-like.

Another example, the Bulgars led more wars against other slavic tribes in the Balkans, rather than the Byzantines. Why would they do that, if they made an alliance with anonymous "7 Slavic Tribes" just a year ago? The so called slavs, were never ever united in a single country. They always miraculously appear in Greek, Avar, Bulgar, Magyar, Rus states with greater numbers, but somehow cannot form a state by their own.
You cannot just lump different tribes and people, into ever changing term for "slavs".

Couple of years ago the R1a branch was slavic, because it was found in every slavic speaking country. Then it became the I2a1 because of the young TMRCA. Even the N1c was slavic at one point. Now I read that the scythians and sarmatians were proto-slavs. So which one is it exactly? The ever changing language, or Y-haplo or what exactly defines it?

Pashiputak, your name is rude, maybe you have forgotten that at least the South Slavs can understand it and immediately identify you as a troll.

Ayetooey
08-05-2019, 11:26 PM
Nice to see some more samples; they are sorely lacking within our subclade. Would be good to see something more early medieval that predates the 900 AD Poland sample we have; which is afaik the earliest one found.

Mis
10-02-2020, 06:43 AM
Distance Mis R1b-L23EE Polska
0.02522712 HUN_Avar_Szolad:Av1
0.02914799 VK2020_SWE_Gotland_VA:VK53
0.02972614 VK2020_DNK_Jutland_VA:VK340
0.03145728 SWE_Viking_Age_Sigtuna:vik_grt036
0.03275704 VK2020_SWE_Skara_VA:VK309
0.03335801 VK2020_DNK_Langeland_VA:VK274
0.03338401 CZE_Early_Slav:RISE569
He must be a Slav.