PDA

View Full Version : Am I actually part Greek? Or is it mixing my Sicilian and Slavic?



Sikeliot
07-20-2019, 08:50 PM
23andme gives 7.2 percent Greek and Balkans to me and gives about 12 percent to my full sicilian cousin.

If it is coming up Greek and Balkan that has to mean recently Greek that is mixed with Slavs no? Ancient Greek would probably not show that way?

Or is it combining my Sicilian and Polish together and putting it as an intermediate group?

Cellachán
07-20-2019, 09:06 PM
Could be anything...but for what it’s worth;

My wife has a first cousin who’s biological father left him and his mother while her cousin was still in the womb. The man was said to be Italian. Recently her cousin did 23, he scores about 35% Greek and Balkan. The Greek and Balkan gets the Peloponnese selected in top place and interestingly, Sicily for his Italy (in which he only scores like 6%). His paternal haplogroup is E-V13. Now, he gets Spanish ancestry from his mother, so that no doubt is impacting those percentages in some way.

What do you think about that by the way? Could he truly just be half Sicilian?

Sikeliot
07-20-2019, 09:34 PM
Could be anything...but for what it’s worth;

My wife has a first cousin who’s biological father left him and his mother while her cousin was still in the womb. The man was said to be Italian. Recently her cousin did 23, he scores about 35% Greek and Balkan. The Greek and Balkan gets the Peloponnese selected in top place and interestingly, Sicily for his Italy (in which he only scores like 6%). His paternal haplogroup is E-V13. Now, he gets Spanish ancestry from his mother, so that no doubt is impacting those percentages in some way.

What do you think about that by the way? Could he truly just be half Sicilian?

Apulians score a lot more Greek than Sicilians do unless it's very recent.

Cellachán
07-20-2019, 09:39 PM
I found it interesting he gets regions in Greece highlighted, plus just in general, a Greatly higher G&B percentage versus Italian. We all know more or less about the population genetic history of Sicily and Southern Italy, but the contrast is Huge..lol.

Anyhoot, didn’t mean to hijack your thread. Reminded me of my wife’s cousins situation. I think most of that is actual Ancient Greek ancestry. I mean, how much more Slavic blood is usually in a Bulgarian or Serb versus a mainland Greek from the north?

Sikeliot
07-20-2019, 11:15 PM
I found it interesting he gets regions in Greece highlighted, plus just in general, a Greatly higher G&B percentage versus Italian. We all know more or less about the population genetic history of Sicily and Southern Italy, but the contrast is Huge..lol.

Anyhoot, didn’t mean to hijack your thread. Reminded me of my wife’s cousins situation. I think most of that is actual Ancient Greek ancestry. I mean, how much more Slavic blood is usually in a Bulgarian or Serb versus a mainland Greek from the north?

Ancient Greek should show up as Italian. The Greek category consists of Slavic admixed mainlanders.

I just know I score more of that category than most full Sicilians so I think it might be recent. We have a family rumor of it but Anatolian Greek not mainland.

Greekscholar
07-21-2019, 06:09 PM
23andme gives 7.2 percent Greek and Balkans to me and gives about 12 percent to my full sicilian cousin.

If it is coming up Greek and Balkan that has to mean recently Greek that is mixed with Slavs no? Ancient Greek would probably not show that way?

Or is it combining my Sicilian and Polish together and putting it as an intermediate group?

The best way to check for recent Greek ancestry would be to go through your cousin list. 7% is roughly a great-great-grandparent which should mean you still have a sizeable enough chunks of SNPs to find solid matches. I am not familiar with 23andMe, but on other testing services Italians and Greeks will frequently have significant percents of both ethnicities listed in their results. It doesn't always mean you have recent ancestry from that region.

Sikeliot
07-21-2019, 06:16 PM
The best way to check for recent Greek ancestry would be to go through your cousin list. 7% is roughly a great-great-grandparent which should mean you still have a sizeable enough chunks of SNPs to find solid matches. I am not familiar with 23andMe, but on other testing services Italians and Greeks will frequently have significant percents of both ethnicities listed in their results. It doesn't always mean you have recent ancestry from that region.

That is true. But 23andme's Greek category is designed to capture mainland Greek ancestry, and consists of people with significant Slavic input. If I didn't have Greek ancestry in the last 1000 years, I doubt I'd score that category because ancient Greek would go into "Italian."

The other possibility to me is that it's combining my East Med type ancestry from Sicily with Slavic, and mistaking it for Greek.

I have 7 Greek matches, all mainland. I definitely do not think this is ancient Greek ancestry or it'd show up as Italian.

Greekscholar
07-21-2019, 06:39 PM
Well, I can't say I know enough 23andMe to be able to read any more into it. The cousin matches should help you determine if the Greek admix is recent or not using normal genetic genealogy techniques.

Cellachán
07-21-2019, 07:05 PM
Anatolian Greeks in Sicily? Hmm.


Ancient Greek should show up as Italian. The Greek category consists of Slavic admixed mainlanders.

I just know I score more of that category than most full Sicilians so I think it might be recent. We have a family rumor of it but Anatolian Greek not mainland.

Sikeliot
07-21-2019, 07:11 PM
Anatolian Greeks in Sicily? Hmm.

They've been migrating there for over a thousand years.

Nino90
07-21-2019, 07:46 PM
Hi!

You have posted various results over time, But what is your known ancestry again?¨

I would not trust 23andme too much.¨

The new beta give me 6 % South European and 6,1 % Broadly European.
9.6% French and german + 11,4% Broadly Northwest European.

That would give me around 32 % that could represent my North Italian ancestry( who would be 37.5% paper trail).

But not as accurate as lets say G25 calculators.

Cellachán
07-21-2019, 08:43 PM
They've been migrating there for over a thousand years.

That wasn’t meant to be skeptical, maybe I came across weird there. Just didn’t really know.

Sikeliot
08-03-2019, 05:17 PM
So based on my father's cousin scoring 12% Greek, and myself scoring 7% (which is a lot higher than many FULL Sicilians) and the segments being very compact rather than broken up, it would lead me to believe it's from the 1800s. Here is my chromosome painting with the Greek segments highlighted.

I am a full 25% Iberian (minus the SSA in my Cape Verdean) and 23andme thinks my Greek ancestry is as recent as my Portuguese... that says something to me.

https://i.imgur.com/3DHlFHI.png

Bosniensis
08-06-2019, 06:50 AM
Your Greek & Balkan is very low... I've always taught you have way more? Your Italian % must be high though.

Dorkymon
08-06-2019, 11:12 AM
23andme gives 7.2 percent Greek and Balkans to me and gives about 12 percent to my full sicilian cousin.

If it is coming up Greek and Balkan that has to mean recently Greek that is mixed with Slavs no? Ancient Greek would probably not show that way?

Or is it combining my Sicilian and Polish together and putting it as an intermediate group?

That's not "the Greek" category. It's the old Balkan/Southeast Euro category, but they've renamed it.

"The Balkan Peninsula is nestled in the southeastern corner of Europe and serves as the geographic and genetic crossroads between Europe and western Asia. Despite broad cultural and religious diversity, the people of the Balkans are genetically similar to one another, descending from early Mediterranean and Slavic peoples. Island Greeks lack this ancestral Slavic influence and are similar to southern Italians.

Reference countries: Albania, Bosnia, Bulgaria, Croatia, Greece, Moldova, North Macedonia, Montenegro, Romania and Serbia."

Greekscholar
08-06-2019, 05:09 PM
That's not "the Greek" category. It's the old Balkan/Southeast Euro category, but they've renamed it.

"The Balkan Peninsula is nestled in the southeastern corner of Europe and serves as the geographic and genetic crossroads between Europe and western Asia. Despite broad cultural and religious diversity, the people of the Balkans are genetically similar to one another, descending from early Mediterranean and Slavic peoples. Island Greeks lack this ancestral Slavic influence and are similar to southern Italians.

Reference countries: Albania, Bosnia, Bulgaria, Croatia, Greece, Moldova, North Macedonia, Montenegro, Romania and Serbia."

Yes, thank you for this. Both Ancestry.com and it seems, 23andMe, have their "Greece" label attached to the Balkans now, which means most Island Greeks score a majority or plurality "Italian" on these tests. It is confusing to casual users who don't dig deeper into what these regions are supposed to mean (not saying that is anyone here.) IMO, MyHeritage has the best labeling system since they have separate regions for:

The Balkans
Greece and Southern Italy
Italy (could probably use a better name for this region)

Mainland Greeks are G/SI + Balkans, they look much like Albanians on this test. Island Greeks are G/SI + various West Asian/Middle Eastern groups. There are exceptions, of course, but for a commercial testing service MyHeritage does pretty well with Greek populations.

Sikeliot
08-08-2019, 12:12 AM
Yes, thank you for this. Both Ancestry.com and it seems, 23andMe, have their "Greece" label attached to the Balkans now, which means most Island Greeks score a majority or plurality "Italian" on these tests. It is confusing to casual users who don't dig deeper into what these regions are supposed to mean (not saying that is anyone here.) IMO, MyHeritage has the best labeling system since they have separate regions for:

The Balkans
Greece and Southern Italy
Italy (could probably use a better name for this region)

Mainland Greeks are G/SI + Balkans, they look much like Albanians on this test. Island Greeks are G/SI + various West Asian/Middle Eastern groups. There are exceptions, of course, but for a commercial testing service MyHeritage does pretty well with Greek populations.


What is funny is 'Greek + South Italian' also doesn't capture southern Italians well either, as they are also coming up with West Asian, Middle Eastern, and North African. They need to rename these groupings or make them more inclusive.

Greekscholar
08-08-2019, 04:59 PM
What is funny is 'Greek + South Italian' also doesn't capture southern Italians well either, as they are also coming up with West Asian, Middle Eastern, and North African. They need to rename these groupings or make them more inclusive.

Well, when you consider that Southern Italians and Island Greeks overlap on most PCAs, it shouldn't be that surprising. I can say that the two 100% Greek/Southern Italian cousins I have found were both from Ikaria. The two brothers from Kalymnos and the Cypriot-shifted Ikarian on my K15 chart both pop at least 15% in the West Asian region on MyHeritage (luckily all three are signed up on both.) My immediate family, who all are closer to the Southern Italian end of the continuum according to most of these tests we have looked at all score very low West Asian (I posted these in the MyHeritage forum here.) My aunt (that other Fourni dot) is closer to West Asia on the K15 PCA, and has more West Asian on MyHeritage as well. I doubt this holds true for every individual, but my guess would be the MyHeritage reference panel for Greece/Southern Italy is based on individuals on the "west" side of the continuum. As you move towards more the Dodecanese and on to Cyprus on the "east" side of the continuum that West Asian percent increases accordingly.

Sikeliot
08-08-2019, 09:16 PM
Well, when you consider that Southern Italians and Island Greeks overlap on most PCAs, it shouldn't be that surprising. I can say that the two 100% Greek/Southern Italian cousins I have found were both from Ikaria. The two brothers from Kalymnos and the Cypriot-shifted Ikarian on my K15 chart both pop at least 15% in the West Asian region on MyHeritage (luckily all three are signed up on both.) My immediate family, who all are closer to the Southern Italian end of the continuum according to most of these tests we have looked at all score very low West Asian (I posted these in the MyHeritage forum here.) My aunt (that other Fourni dot) is closer to West Asia on the K15 PCA, and has more West Asian on MyHeritage as well. I doubt this holds true for every individual, but my guess would be the MyHeritage reference panel for Greece/Southern Italy is based on individuals on the "west" side of the continuum. As you move towards more the Dodecanese and on to Cyprus on the "east" side of the continuum that West Asian percent increases accordingly.



I think it depends on who is in that 'South Italian and Greek' category but it might work better for Ikaria than for Sicily/Calabria because the latter have more North African and Levantine. Not sure. West Asian is more Caucasus type ancestry and might be higher in the Dodecanese. I also noticed higher than average West Asian in Sicilians from Palermo, but almost 95%+ European in Apulians by contrast.

This is fairly typical for what a Sicilian might score on there.. this person is from Sciacca, Agrigento, Sicily.

https://i.imgur.com/xgYvTGS.png