PDA

View Full Version : Am I part Yekke?



StillWater
07-21-2019, 02:31 AM
My mother has a full Yekke (German Jew) match, whom she shares 1.9% DNA with, 44cm as the largest segment, over a total of 11 segments. I'm fully aware that any 2 Ashkenazim will on average share more DNA than others with the same ancestral relationship, but this close? Her most western grandparent was born in the northern part of Congress Poland.

update: poll added above

hartaisarlag
07-21-2019, 03:08 AM
My mother has a full Yekke match, whom she shares 1.9% DNA with, 44cm as the largest segment, over a total of 11 segments. I'm fully aware that any 2 Ashkenazim will on average share more DNA than others with the same ancestral relationship, but this close? Her most western grandparent was born in the northern part of Congress Poland.

That's a lot of DNA.

I also have surprisingly close (seemingly) full Yekke matches; hard to account for the genetic proximity. As has come up on this forum a bunch of times, though, most connections across the West-East Ashkenazi divide in the last 250 years are likely to be from westward, rather than eastward, migrations. Would be cool if you got to the bottom of this particular connection!

StillWater
07-21-2019, 03:31 AM
That's a lot of DNA.

I also have surprisingly close (seemingly) full Yekke matches; hard to account for the genetic proximity. As has come up on this forum a bunch of times, though, most connections across the West-East Ashkenazi divide in the last 250 years are likely to be from westward, rather than eastward, migrations. Would be cool if you got to the bottom of this particular connection!

The match says he's fully Yekke and seems confident that he has no connection to Eastern Europe. Have you contacted your (seemingly) full Yekke matches? How close are they?

hartaisarlag
07-21-2019, 03:54 AM
I have not—I'd actually forgotten about this puzzle until now. Two of my 30 top FTDNA matches by total shared cM (148, with a 16 cM segment, and another 148, with a 14 cM segment), seem to be fully Yekke. I'll reach out and ask.

I've also noticed a few decently close matches who are of 100% recent Hungarian Jewish origin, and I don't have any ancestors who lived anywhere in the Hungarian domain.

On that last point, though, I recently learned the name of a late 18th century ancestor from Bedzin (southern Poland, just shy of Silesia) with a surname that's mostly attested in Hungary. If only I had the Beider volumes in front of me.

StillWater
07-21-2019, 04:48 PM
I've added a poll for those of you too lazy to reply with your opinions. However, I'd appreciate some commentary; that's not to say the responses from hartaisarlag haven't been sufficient.

hartaisarlag
07-21-2019, 07:22 PM
31944

By the way, on the topic of Western Ashkenazim vs. Eastern Ashkenazim, which keeps coming up peripherally, I don't think anyone's ever shared this PCA from Granot-Hershkovitz et al. 2017. With a pretty decent sample size, it's clear that about half of WAJ overlap with EAJ, and half don't (that's a conservative way of putting it; a good number of the overlappers are clustered on the edge of the EAJ range). The idea that there's no way to distinguish WAJ from EAJ in aggregate needs to be retired. That is not to say an overwhelming majority of WAJ individuals differ noticeably from EAJ, though. The most parsimonious explanation for this is backmigration, recent enough not to have affected all WAJ communities.

An alternate explanation that comes to mind assumes the basic truth of the Danubian/bney khes hypothesis of Yiddish origins. In that case, we might find that the WAJ who overlap EAJ are all Bavarian and Austrian Jews, and that many of the non-overlapping WAJ are Jews from the greater Rhineland.

Would be great to have geographical details on these German Jews' origins.

StillWater
07-21-2019, 07:44 PM
31944

By the way, on the topic of Western Ashkenazim vs. Eastern Ashkenazim, which keeps coming up peripherally, I don't think anyone's ever shared this PCA from Granot-Hershkovitz et al. 2017. With a pretty decent sample size, it's clear that about half of WAJ overlap with EAJ, and half don't (that's a conservative way of putting it; a good number of the overlappers are clustered on the edge of the EAJ range). The idea that there's no way to distinguish WAJ from EAJ in aggregate needs to be retired. That is not to say an overwhelming majority of WAJ individuals differ noticeably from EAJ, though. The most parsimonious explanation for this is backmigration, recent enough not to have affected all WAJ communities.

An alternate explanation that comes to mind assumes the basic truth of the Danubian/bney khes hypothesis of Yiddish origins. In that case, we might find that the WAJ who overlap EAJ are all Bavarian and Austrian Jews, and that many of the non-overlapping WAJ are Jews from the greater Rhineland.

Would be great to have geographical details on these German Jews' origins.

I am one of those Eastern Ashkenazim who plots closer to Yekkes than to my own. Note the largest region-specific diaspora group 24genetics assigned me in their report with Jewish references:

https://i.imgur.com/U4Xrwyy.png

You might be on to something, although possibly in the other direction, where those EAJ who plot with WAJ descend more from Bney Khes.

hartaisarlag
07-21-2019, 07:51 PM
I am one of those Eastern Ashkenazim who plots closer to Yekkes than to my own. Note the largest region-specific diaspora group 24genetics assigned me in their report with Jewish references:

https://i.imgur.com/U4Xrwyy.png

You might be on to something, although possibly in the other direction, where those EAJ who plot with WAJ descend more from Bney Khes.

There's that possibility.

*Or* the possibility that EAJ who plot with WAJ are the ones with less Balto-Slavic admixture.

I remember that my top Eurogenes K47 matches were Dodecanese Greek and German Jewish. It could just be an artifact of my below-average Balto-Slavic ancestry (my North Atlantic ancestry is normal for Ashkenazim, though). I'm more interested in the aggregate pattern than in individual results, each of which could be explained by half a dozen different factors.

StillWater
07-21-2019, 07:53 PM
There's that possibility.

*Or* the possibility that EAJ who plot with WAJ are the ones with less Balto-Slavic admixture.

I remember that my top Eurogenes K47 matches were Dodecanese Greek and German Jewish. It could just be an artifact of my below-average Balto-Slavic ancestry (my North Atlantic ancestry is normal for Ashkenazim, though). I'm more interested in the aggregate pattern than in individual results, each of which could be explained by half a dozen different factors.

This is the obvious and more likely possibility, but I was commenting on why I was assigned Austrian Jewish specifically, as opposed to German Jewish. Where do you find Eurogenes K47?

hartaisarlag
07-21-2019, 08:10 PM
This is the obvious and more likely possibility, but I was commenting on why I was assigned Austrian Jewish specifically, as opposed to German Jewish. Where do you find Eurogenes K47?

Depends how you're framing it.

Granot-Hershkovitz et al. construct it so that a bit more than half of WAJ don't overlap with EAJ, whereas a bit less than half of WAJ do.

You can also look at the PCA and conclude that a bit less than 2/3 of EAJ overlap with about 1/2 of WAJ, and a bit more than 1/3 of EAJ don't overlap with WAJ at all.

I think both factors—the Balto-Slavic factor and the backmigration-overlaying-primeval structure factor—are at play.

hartaisarlag
07-21-2019, 08:17 PM
And I'm actually wrong here, that was K36 by-population similarity. Here are my values above 0.9:

GR_Dodecanese 0,94738
German_Ashkenazy 0,94665
GR_Kalymnos 0,94584
Malta 0,94382
Sicily_Katania 0,94304
GR_Chios 0,94124
Romanian_Jew 0,93905
Poland_Ashkenazy 0,9378
Sicily_Palermo 0,93546
Latvia_Ashkenazy 0,9349
IT_Calabria 0,93332
GR_Crete 0,93276
GR_Ikaria 0,93226
Sicily_Trapani 0,93165
France_Ashkenazy 0,93139
Sicily_Caltanisetta 0,92944
GR_Cyclades 0,92915
Sicily_Ragusa 0,9291
IT_Apulia 0,9286
IT_Campania 0,9282
Sicily_Agrigento 0,92545
IT_Abruzzo 0,92507
GR_Kythira 0,92048
GR_Andros 0,91919
GR_Central 0,91823
Sicily_Messina 0,91743
Sephardi_Turkey 0,91479
Italian_Jew 0,90661
Belarus_Ashkenazy 0,90556
Sephardi_Bulgaria 0,90257

The Ashkenazi regional differences are interesting to me, and I don't remember anything about sample sizes, sampling methods, or significant shifts in affinity.

StillWater
07-21-2019, 08:23 PM
And I'm actually wrong here, that was K36 by-population similarity. Here are my values above 0.9:

GR_Dodecanese 0,94738
German_Ashkenazy 0,94665
GR_Kalymnos 0,94584
Malta 0,94382
Sicily_Katania 0,94304
GR_Chios 0,94124
Romanian_Jew 0,93905
Poland_Ashkenazy 0,9378
Sicily_Palermo 0,93546
Latvia_Ashkenazy 0,9349
IT_Calabria 0,93332
GR_Crete 0,93276
GR_Ikaria 0,93226
Sicily_Trapani 0,93165
France_Ashkenazy 0,93139
Sicily_Caltanisetta 0,92944
GR_Cyclades 0,92915
Sicily_Ragusa 0,9291
IT_Apulia 0,9286
IT_Campania 0,9282
Sicily_Agrigento 0,92545
IT_Abruzzo 0,92507
GR_Kythira 0,92048
GR_Andros 0,91919
GR_Central 0,91823
Sicily_Messina 0,91743
Sephardi_Turkey 0,91479
Italian_Jew 0,90661
Belarus_Ashkenazy 0,90556
Sephardi_Bulgaria 0,90257

The Ashkenazi regional differences are interesting to me, and I don't remember anything about sample sizes, sampling methods, or significant shifts in affinity.

Where did you get this and how did they get all those references (Belarus_Ashkenazi etc.) ?

hartaisarlag
07-21-2019, 08:29 PM
Where did you get this and how did they get all those references (Belarus_Ashkenazi etc.) ?

I got it from Lukasz for a few euros, I think, back in late 2017. He says the references are from Behar et al 2013. "Austro-Hungarian Ashkenazi" and "Dutch Ashkenazi" are even farther down my list; in the first case, farther than a few North African Jewish groups + Cypriots, and in the second, farther even than Syrian Jews (probably bc of known Dutch admixture in the population).

Also worth commenting that some national-level groupings are useful—like Belarus—while others encompass too much variation to be useful, like Poland. Lithuanian Jews, which would probably be a useful group, are not represented, at least on my results list. Latvian Jews might be a decent proxy for them, but I also know that the Jews of Courland have a unique cultural (and maybe migrational) history. I would assume Romanian Jews are a better representation of Galitzian/Podolian Jews than an aggregate sample of either Polish or Ukrainian Jews, but again, I can think of possible confounds.

StillWater
07-21-2019, 08:33 PM
I got it from Davidski for a few euros, I think, back in late 2017. Unsure where they got those references. "Austro-Hungarian Ashkenazi" and "Dutch Ashkenazi" are even farther down my list; in the first case, farther than a few North African Jewish groups + Cypriots, and in the second, farther even than Syrian Jews (probably bc of known Dutch admixture in the population).

Would've guessed it was from Lukasz. Do you recommend either?

hartaisarlag
07-21-2019, 08:46 PM
Would've guessed it was from Lukasz. Do you recommend either?

I got Poles confused. It was Lukasz.

I'm not sure how informative it was—my results seem pretty typical Ashkenazi, and frankly, I don't think it's that meaningful to know which Greek Island or Sicilian region I match best.

StillWater
07-21-2019, 08:48 PM
I got it from Davidski for a few euros, I think, back in late 2017. He says the references are from Behar et al 2013. "Austro-Hungarian Ashkenazi" and "Dutch Ashkenazi" are even farther down my list; in the first case, farther than a few North African Jewish groups + Cypriots, and in the second, farther even than Syrian Jews (probably bc of known Dutch admixture in the population).

Also worth commenting that some national-level groupings are useful—like Belarus—while others encompass too much variation to be useful, like Poland. Lithuanian Jews, which would probably be a useful group, are not represented, at least on my results list. Latvian Jews might be a decent proxy for them, but I also know that the Jews of Courland have a unique cultural (and maybe migrational) history. I would assume Romanian Jews are a better representation of Galitzian/Podolian Jews than an aggregate sample of either Polish or Ukrainian Jews, but again, I can think of possible confounds.

You have to be careful when using Latvian Jews, as many from Riga are recent arrivals from Ukraine. Romanian Jews are very interesting. I wonder how much they descend from Sephardim, especially given that the rabbinical leadership was originally Sephardic. Memel should be explored more closely. Jews from there considered themselves Yekkes, with some being recent arrivals from Germany. I wonder how much Yekke descent it contributed to other Litvaks.

Agamemnon
07-21-2019, 09:10 PM
I got Poles confused. It was Lukasz.

I'm not sure how informative it was—my results seem pretty typical Ashkenazi, and frankly, I don't think it's that meaningful to know which Greek Island or Sicilian region I match best.

Here are my father's results in comparison (mostly Ashkenazi, ~25% Krymchak):

https://i.imgur.com/70s4Wt5.png

Sicily_Caltanisetta 0,94104
Sicily_Messina 0,94091
Italian_Jew 0,94009
German_Ashkenazy 0,93948
Sicily_Agrigento 0,93759
France_Ashkenazy 0,93655
Sephardi_Turkey 0,93578
Sicily_Ragusa 0,93484
Sephardi_Bulgaria 0,93453
Sicily_Katania 0,93276
Romanian_Jew 0,93178
IT_Calabria 0,93129
GR_Crete 0,92981
Sicily_Trapani 0,92955
Romaniote 0,9295
Poland_Ashkenazy 0,92865
Sicily_Palermo 0,92823
GR_Ikaria 0,92728
IT_Campania 0,92418
Latvia_Ashkenazy 0,9216
IT_Apulia 0,921
GR_Kythira 0,91786
AustroHungarian_Ashkenazy 0,91579
GR_Chios 0,91519
Malta 0,91458
GR_Dodecanese 0,91418
Belarus_Ashkenazy 0,91328
Cyprus 0,91041
GR_Kalymnos 0,90938
IT_Abruzzo 0,90128

The high similarity to Caltanissetta is something he gets quite often. Also, according to Sikeliot, Messina is one of the most Near Eastern-leaning regions in Sicily. Likewise, not too sure whether this is really meaningful, all that really tells me is that his genetic profile (much like yours) is typically Eastern Mediterranean.

Sikeliot
07-21-2019, 09:12 PM
Here are my father's results in comparison (mostly Ashkenazi, ~25% Krymchak):

https://i.imgur.com/70s4Wt5.png

Sicily_Caltanisetta 0,94104
Sicily_Messina 0,94091
Italian_Jew 0,94009
German_Ashkenazy 0,93948
Sicily_Agrigento 0,93759
France_Ashkenazy 0,93655
Sephardi_Turkey 0,93578
Sicily_Ragusa 0,93484
Sephardi_Bulgaria 0,93453
Sicily_Katania 0,93276
Romanian_Jew 0,93178
IT_Calabria 0,93129
GR_Crete 0,92981
Sicily_Trapani 0,92955
Romaniote 0,9295
Poland_Ashkenazy 0,92865
Sicily_Palermo 0,92823
GR_Ikaria 0,92728
IT_Campania 0,92418
Latvia_Ashkenazy 0,9216
IT_Apulia 0,921
GR_Kythira 0,91786
AustroHungarian_Ashkenazy 0,91579
GR_Chios 0,91519
Malta 0,91458
GR_Dodecanese 0,91418
Belarus_Ashkenazy 0,91328
Cyprus 0,91041
GR_Kalymnos 0,90938
IT_Abruzzo 0,90128

The high similarity to Caltanissetta is something he gets quite often. Also, according to Sikeliot, Messina is one of the most Near Eastern-leaning regions in Sicily. Likewise, not too sure whether this is really meaningful, all that really tells me is that his genetic profile (much like yours) is typically Eastern Mediterranean.

Messina, Caltanissetta, and Palermo are all more MENA shifted than the rest of Sicily. They're kind of like Cretans with North African, and some of them with less NA input are similar to Calabrians and Dodecanese.

Messina is like Calabria bleeding over into Sicily.

hartaisarlag
07-21-2019, 09:13 PM
You have to be careful when using Latvian Jews, as many from Riga are recent arrivals from Ukraine. Romanian Jews are very interesting. I wonder how much they descend from Sephardim, especially given that the rabbinical leadership was originally Sephardic. Memel should be explored more closely. Jews from there considered themselves Yekkes, with some being recent arrivals from Germany. I wonder how much Yekke descent it contributed to other Litvaks.

That's important info: I knew very little about Latvian Jewish history. The farthest north any of my ancestry comes from is Mir...

As for Romanian Jews, my impression from reading whatever I can get my hands on is that a substantial majority of Romanian Jewry at the dawn of the mass migration era was in Moldavia, and the vast majority of Moldavian Jews ca. the late 19th century were recent arrivals from Galitzia, Podolia, and Bessarabia.

That said, unlike in Bucharest, where a distinct Sephardic community survived into modern times, the first Jews of Iasi, who were Sephardic, appear not to have maintained a coherent kehila, which means they were probably absorbed. But looking at the exponential growth of the Moldavian Jewish population over the course of the 19th century, it seems likely that the earliest 16th-17th century community would've amounted to just a drop in the bucket.

hartaisarlag
07-21-2019, 09:18 PM
Here are my father's results in comparison (mostly Ashkenazi, ~25% Krymchak):

https://i.imgur.com/70s4Wt5.png

Sicily_Caltanisetta 0,94104
Sicily_Messina 0,94091
Italian_Jew 0,94009
German_Ashkenazy 0,93948
Sicily_Agrigento 0,93759
France_Ashkenazy 0,93655
Sephardi_Turkey 0,93578
Sicily_Ragusa 0,93484
Sephardi_Bulgaria 0,93453
Sicily_Katania 0,93276
Romanian_Jew 0,93178
IT_Calabria 0,93129
GR_Crete 0,92981
Sicily_Trapani 0,92955
Romaniote 0,9295
Poland_Ashkenazy 0,92865
Sicily_Palermo 0,92823
GR_Ikaria 0,92728
IT_Campania 0,92418
Latvia_Ashkenazy 0,9216
IT_Apulia 0,921
GR_Kythira 0,91786
AustroHungarian_Ashkenazy 0,91579
GR_Chios 0,91519
Malta 0,91458
GR_Dodecanese 0,91418
Belarus_Ashkenazy 0,91328
Cyprus 0,91041
GR_Kalymnos 0,90938
IT_Abruzzo 0,90128

The high similarity to Caltanissetta is something he gets quite often. Also, according to Sikeliot, Messina is one of the most Near Eastern-leaning regions in Sicily. Likewise, not too sure whether this is really meaningful, all that really tells me is that his genetic profile (much like yours) is typically Eastern Mediterranean.

I also just want to note that I'm skeptical of these different calculators' ability to reliably indicate a particular "bent" in me. I get very high Red Sea for an Ashkenazi in K13, but relatively low Arabian in K36. Between-group differences might actually mean something if we were working with decently-powered regional samples.

StillWater
07-21-2019, 09:45 PM
That's important info: I knew very little about Latvian Jewish history. The farthest north any of my ancestry comes from is Mir...

As for Romanian Jews, my impression from reading whatever I can get my hands on is that a substantial majority of Romanian Jewry at the dawn of the mass migration era was in Moldavia, and the vast majority of Moldavian Jews ca. the late 19th century were recent arrivals from Galitzia, Podolia, and Bessarabia.

That said, unlike in Bucharest, where a distinct Sephardic community survived into modern times, the first Jews of Iasi, who were Sephardic, appear not to have maintained a coherent kehila, which means they were probably absorbed. But looking at the exponential growth of the Moldavian Jewish population over the course of the 19th century, it seems likely that the earliest 16th-17th century community would've amounted to just a drop in the bucket.

It's only really Riga that needs careful attention, as far as I know. As for Sephardic Romanian/Moldavian Jews, there was a thread on the 23andMe reddit, where 2 users with family history of Sephardic ancestry from Budjak (modern day Ukraine, former Moldavia/Bessarabia) thought that 23andMe had confirmed their Sephardic ancestry. Here it is: https://www.reddit.com/r/23andme/comments/9tk44o/family_story_confirmed_my_moms_results_romanian/

hartaisarlag
07-22-2019, 12:22 AM
I also just want to note that I'm skeptical of these different calculators' ability to reliably indicate a particular "bent" in me. I get very high Red Sea for an Ashkenazi in K13, but relatively low Arabian in K36. Between-group differences might actually mean something if we were working with decently-powered regional samples.

btw, I would not consider these adequately-powered regional samples, except for maybe the French Jews (n=7). Every other national-level group in Lukasz' analysis is represented by a sample of 2 or 3.

StillWater
07-22-2019, 12:24 AM
What I wrote about Riga might apply to most capital cities. Both Warsaw and Kiev had many Litvaks. However, I don't recall any cases of non-Litvaks in Minsk. I think Erickl86 might've written about having non-Litvak family in Vilna.

Sikeliot
07-22-2019, 11:48 AM
Related to Agamemnon's father, I ran a bunch of people from Caltanissetta (central region of Sicily) and neighboring parts of Palermo through Eurogenes K15 and I noticed a lot of them receiving small distance to "Italian Jewish" in the Oracle and having that appearing in their top 3. So there is definitely something to it that his father is scoring a close match to people from that region. I also noticed the inland part of the island scoring higher than average Red Sea.

hartaisarlag
07-22-2019, 12:21 PM
Be that as it may, this is a thread about Ashkenazi genealogy.

StillWater
07-23-2019, 03:19 AM
Be that as it may, this is a thread about Ashkenazi genealogy.

We're all Sicilians now.

hartaisarlag
07-23-2019, 03:27 AM
We're all Sicilians now.

Oy. Nothing against Sicilians, but the conversations bleed together way more often than called for.

Sikeliot
07-23-2019, 04:17 AM
Oy. Nothing against Sicilians, but the conversations bleed together way more often than called for.

I contributed to this in this thread of course (probably against my better judgment so I apologize) but to be fair I didn't bring it up, Agamemnon did. :lol: Either way we've moved on.

mildlycurly
08-07-2019, 07:25 PM
A slightly related question:

A number of my GEDmatch matches are Russian. Having run several of them through the two-to-many tool with myself, the most likely connection is Jewish. Does this mean I have some distant Russian Jewish ancestry? I believe the main source of my Jewish ancestry based on paper trail and DNA matches is from East Germany and likely Poland. How likely would it be that a Russian Jew ended up in Germany or Poland?

StillWater
08-07-2019, 07:32 PM
A slightly related question:

A number of my GEDmatch matches are Russian. Having run several of them through the two-to-many tool with myself, the most likely connection is Jewish. Does this mean I have some distant Russian Jewish ancestry? I believe the main source of my Jewish ancestry based on paper trail and DNA matches is from East Germany and likely Poland. How likely would it be that a Russian Jew ended up in Germany or Poland?

A lot of possibilities are likely here: shared Polish Jewish ancestry, what you suggested etc.

artemv
08-07-2019, 11:38 PM
A slightly related question:

A number of my GEDmatch matches are Russian. Having run several of them through the two-to-many tool with myself, the most likely connection is Jewish. Does this mean I have some distant Russian Jewish ancestry? I believe the main source of my Jewish ancestry based on paper trail and DNA matches is from East Germany and likely Poland. How likely would it be that a Russian Jew ended up in Germany or Poland?

We have discussed it pretty much in other threads.
All Russian Ashkenazy Jews (I guess more than 99,9%) are descendants of Jews of Polish-Lithuanian commonwealth, that existed before end of 18th century. Since partition of Ploand and until 1914 most of Polish-Lithuanian commonwealth territories were part of Russian Empire. Ashkenazy Jews, as a group of people, emerged in modern Poland-Lithuana-Ukraine-Belarus. Until 1917 Jews could not permanently settle in most Russian regions that were outside of Polish-Lithuanian commonwealth, but they again could migrate freely between all these regions, that were Western part of Russian empire. After 1917 Jews started migrating to the Eastern part of USSR - because it became possible.

So, given all this histrory data you can understand - that there was almost no genetic difference between Ashkenazy Jews in Poland/Ukraine/Belarus/Russia, as all of them are descendants of the same homogenous group of people. (Of course, this is not about Russian Jews of Eastern descent like Mountain Jews, Georgian Jews, Bukhara Jews).

Dewsloth
08-07-2019, 11:52 PM
We don't have any (known) connection to eastern Europe, or even East-Central: our Jewish ancestors' records begin in the late 1600s-early 1700s in southwest Germany (mostly B-W, some Bav) although the family surname points to a possible earlier origin of Dessau (now part of Saxony-Anhalt) .

I guess we're really part Yekke and not so much Ashkenazi, but I don't pretend to understand all the distinctions. Also, with only about 10% ancestry remaining, it's hard to say definitively what the total sum of our last full-Jewish ancestors looked like, autosomally.

hartaisarlag
08-08-2019, 01:20 AM
We don't have any (known) connection to eastern Europe, or even East-Central: our Jewish ancestors' records begin in the late 1600s-early 1700s in southwest Germany (mostly B-W, some Bav) although the family surname points to a possible earlier origin of Dessau (now part of Saxony-Anhalt) .

I guess we're really part Yekke and not so much Ashkenazi, but I don't pretend to understand all the distinctions. Also, with only about 10% ancestry remaining, it's hard to say definitively what the total sum of our last full-Jewish ancestors looked like, autosomally.

Yekkes are German Ashkenazim.

Dewsloth
08-08-2019, 02:52 AM
Yekkes are German Ashkenazim.

So I’m not totally incorrect using either term? Thanks!

hartaisarlag
08-08-2019, 03:21 AM
So I’m not totally incorrect using either term? Thanks!

Right—Yekke is a subset of Ashkenazi, like Litvak or Galitzianer.

I should add, most Ashkenazi American Jews today are not familiar with these terms. I recently informed my girlfriend that she's a Yekke (well, half), and after reading a list of Yekke stereotypes, she was like, "Oh, that makes sense." Mind you, she knew exactly where her family was from—grandparents were born in Germany and still speak German at home.

Targum
08-08-2019, 03:27 AM
So I’m not totally incorrect using either term? Thanks!
Not at all ; it is in common usage in Israel; some US German-Jewish descendants are offended by it due to lack of familiarity with Israeli slang. Israelis of full(this is already rare) or partial ( like my wife’s Yekke-Yemenite cousins) German Jewish descent see it as affectionate. It is actually a bit complementary and mocking at the same time, as Yekkim of the 1920s or 1930s had Western European culture and manners unknown and strange to the Jews of Mandatory Palestine.

StillWater
08-08-2019, 03:57 AM
Not at all ; it is in common usage in Israel; some US German-Jewish descendants are offended by it due to lack of familiarity with Israeli slang. Israelis of full(this is already rare) or partial ( like my wife’s Yekke-Yemenite cousins) German Jewish descent see it as affectionate. It is actually a bit complementary and mocking at the same time, as Yekkim of the 1920s or 1930s had Western European culture and manners unknown and strange to the Jews of Mandatory Palestine.

However, nothing is more of a compliment than being called a Litvak.

Targum
08-08-2019, 04:05 AM
However, nothing is more of a compliment than being called a Litvak.

1/4 Litvak here

StillWater
08-08-2019, 04:55 AM
1/4 Litvak here

Wait, aren't you half since both zeydes were from Belarus? But if you are 1/4, it means you think at 3/4s the time of a Galitzianer! Just imagine, you can always grab the last piece of the sugar mess they call gefilte without being noticed.

Targum
08-08-2019, 05:04 AM
Wait, aren't you half since both zeydes were from Belarus? But if you are 1/4, it means you think at 3/4s the time of a Galitzianer! Just imagine, you can always grab the last piece of the sugar mess they call gefilte without being noticed.

Won’t be in same room as sweet fish; no one in our family cooked gefilte fish that way; preferring black pepper;and now we prefer our gefilte fish, which like most observant Jews today, we make from frozen fresh ground fish, Moroccan style like in Israel, even though neither of us is Moroccan. That’s just the default fish recipe nowadays.
And yes if Belarus counts as Lita, then 3/4 Litvak

hartaisarlag
08-08-2019, 05:10 AM
1/4 Litvak here

Less than 1/4 here

StillWater
08-08-2019, 05:28 AM
Won’t be in same room as sweet fish; no one in our family cooked gefilte fish that way; preferring black pepper;and now we prefer our gefilte fish, which like most observant Jews today, we make from frozen fresh ground fish, Moroccan style like in Israel, even though neither of us is Moroccan. That’s just the default fish recipe nowadays.
And yes if Belarus counts as Lita, then 3/4 Litvak

If Belarus didn't count as Lita, I'd be in trouble. The reason no one cooked gefilte fish that way in your household is because Belarusian Jews are Litvaks. In fact, Belarusian Jews are arguably more Litvak than those from the Baltics, as Chassidic Belarusian Jews are more likely to use Litvish pronunciations even during prayer and most big Misnoged Yeshives were in Belarus: Brisk, Volozhin, Slutsk, Radun, Mir, Novogrodek(non-bolded also in Belarus). The Vilna Gaon was also born in Belarus - the English wiki gets it wrong. In my main region of Belarus, the Yiddish sounded even more Litvish than in Lithuania.

loxias
08-08-2019, 07:29 AM
I hope I am not highjacking the thread too much with this question.
Can surnames be of any use when trying to detect which matches on Gedmatch are Yekke, Litvaks or Galitzianer? My grandmother’s whole Jewish family tree was born in France (Rhineland areas and Provenšal Jews from the Pope’s enclave of Comtat Venaissin), yet she often talks of a Latvian ancestor who came to France by foot. I still haven’t been able to find who it was but Gedmatch seems to indicate a lot of Eastern matches for her.

StillWater
08-08-2019, 07:44 AM
I hope I am not highjacking the thread too much with this question.
Can surnames be of any use when trying to detect which matches on Gedmatch are Yekke, Litvaks or Galitzianer? My grandmother’s whole Jewish family tree was born in France (Rhineland areas and Provenšal Jews from the Pope’s enclave of Comtat Venaissin), yet she often talks of a Latvian ancestor who came to France by foot. I still haven’t been able to find who it was but Gedmatch seems to indicate a lot of Eastern matches for her.

If read literally, then yes, they can be. However, the name may not be of any help there.

StillWater
11-28-2019, 04:26 AM
An update, one of my mom's closest matches is now a Hungarian Jew:

Estimated relationships
1st cousin twice removed - 2nd cousin once removed?
DNA Match quality?
1.9%
Shared DNA
13
Shared segments
~24cm

Given that her 1st maternal cousin doesn't match him, it's again from the same side which matches the Yekke. Is my Eastern Ashkenazi purity in jeopardy?

passenger
11-28-2019, 05:21 AM
Is my Eastern Ashkenazi purity in jeopardy?

Seems so :laugh:

hartaisarlag
12-03-2019, 05:34 PM
I hope I am not highjacking the thread too much with this question.
Can surnames be of any use when trying to detect which matches on Gedmatch are Yekke, Litvaks or Galitzianer? My grandmother’s whole Jewish family tree was born in France (Rhineland areas and Provenšal Jews from the Pope’s enclave of Comtat Venaissin), yet she often talks of a Latvian ancestor who came to France by foot. I still haven’t been able to find who it was but Gedmatch seems to indicate a lot of Eastern matches for her.

Yes, actually. I would recommend reading the introductory chapters to Beider's Russian Empire Jewish surname dictionary for this.