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Censored
07-21-2019, 07:10 AM
Is anyone aware of the genetic profiles of Iranian Arabs? I wondered about this for a long time. I would suspect those in khuzestan(where most live) to be similar to Iraqi Arabs or Iraqi/Persian mixes while those in bandar Abbas may be like saudis or Saudi Persian mixes. Unfortunately the entire region is so poorly sampled.

DMXX
07-28-2019, 12:33 AM
We don't have any autosomal data for them, as far as I'm aware. I also haven't seen any fully Iranian Arab individuals who've tested with the likes of 23andMe or FTDNA declare themselves online.

Iranian Arabs are mostly present along the country's southern coastline (from Khuzestan up to the Gulf of Oman). Some (those from Khuzestan) have relatively recent Arabian origins (the best-attested migration of Arabian tribes into Khuzestan took place only a few centuries ago). Others (mostly those from the southern Iranian coastline) have an arguably greater antiquity, with respect to the application of the "Iranian Arab" ethnonym, as they're largely a by-product of a trans-Gulf merchant network that appears to go back to the Sassanid period. There's also a tribal group in Khorasan with Arabian origins that claims direct descent from the Medieval Arabs whom invaded Persia (though, apparently, most of them have adopted Persian as their primary language).

As is the case with Iranian Azeris and their/"our" East Eurasian admixture, I'd expect a non-uniform distribution when it comes to Peninsular Arab ancestry, though their average would clearly be significantly higher than that seen in neighbouring groups (which looks to be negligible/nil).

Per the analysis here (https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?16054-Surplus-Levant_N-in-Iranians-and-Kurds-An-Analysis), all Iranians (including Zoroastrians) have a Levant_ChL/BA-derived surplus in ancestry which isn't derived from Peninsular Arabs (at least, going by the inclusion of BedouinB, though this isn't a perfect test, as modern Bedouins are clearly a drifted outcome of the historical Medieval Peninsular Arabs). As such, it'll be difficult to tease out the true extent of Arabian ancestry in a given individual as a result.

I've been told by Arab friends that the dialect of Arabic used by Iranian Arabs (both those from Khuzestan and also the southern Iranian coast) is near-identical to the Baghdadi variant.

Censored
07-28-2019, 12:55 AM
We don't have any autosomal data for them, as far as I'm aware. I also haven't seen any fully Iranian Arab individuals who've tested with the likes of 23andMe or FTDNA declare themselves online.

Iranian Arabs are mostly present along the country's southern coastline (from Khuzestan up to the Gulf of Oman). Some (those from Khuzestan) have relatively recent Arabian origins (the best-attested migration of Arabian tribes into Khuzestan took place only a few centuries ago). Others (mostly those from the southern Iranian coastline) have an arguably greater antiquity, with respect to the application of the "Iranian Arab" ethnonym, as they're largely a by-product of a trans-Gulf merchant network that appears to go back to the Sassanid period. There's also a tribal group in Khorasan with Arabian origins that claims direct descent from the Medieval Arabs whom invaded Persia (though, apparently, most of them have adopted Persian as their primary language).

As is the case with Iranian Azeris and their/"our" East Eurasian admixture, I'd expect a non-uniform distribution when it comes to Peninsular Arab ancestry, though their average would clearly be significantly higher than that seen in neighbouring groups (which looks to be negligible/nil).

Per the analysis here (https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?16054-Surplus-Levant_N-in-Iranians-and-Kurds-An-Analysis), all Iranians (including Zoroastrians) have a Levant_ChL/BA-derived surplus in ancestry which isn't derived from Peninsular Arabs (at least, going by the inclusion of BedouinB, though this isn't a perfect test, as modern Bedouins are clearly a drifted outcome of the historical Medieval Peninsular Arabs). As such, it'll be difficult to tease out the true extent of Arabian ancestry in a given individual as a result.

I've been told by Arab friends that the dialect of Arabic used by Iranian Arabs (both those from Khuzestan and also the southern Iranian coast) is near-identical to the Baghdadi variant.

Many Arab tribes in the fertile crescent have a reported history of being from the Arabian peninsula proper but from what Ive seen on many genetic tests, many actually turn out to be wholly, predominantly, or at least majority local to the region in which they live. IIRC, in the case of many gedmatch Iraqi samples they appear to have a strong Iranian shift and are only part Arabian if at all. I wonder if it could also be that the Arabs in Iran are Elamite or Mesopotamian descendants rather than of Iranian/Arab stock. It is the heart of elam and just bordering what was Sumeria.

And the fact these people speak the Iraqi dialect rather than say a Saudi or Yemeni one would surely suggest a deeper connection as well...

ancestryfan1994
08-23-2019, 03:41 PM
As a southern Iranian, my family members matched a few Iranian Arabs and based on what Ive seen from them, I think the true answer to their origins will be quite varied. The ones we matched indeed looked like regular southern Iranians, but I'm sure this will vary greatly on the individual, with some being heavily Arab shifted and some being virtually indistinguishable from other Iranians. Much like most Azeri from Iran on a genetic scale are pretty much northern Iranians who adopted Turkish cultural customs and language, I think what you will find is that most Iranian Arabs are Arabized Iranians, but it wont be as plain and simple as that. I would guess that there will be a cline existing in terms of how Arab shifted they will be, and there's no doubt that Arab admixture will probably be present in a good chunk of them, but exactly how much remains to be seen.

This reminded me of a Saudi match a while ago we had on 23andme which happened to show up on GEDmatch too, so I was able to check their genetic profile and interestingly enough it turned out they was actually heavily Iranian shifted, despite having fully Arabic surnames and all 4 grandparents born in Saudi Arabia. I think due to movement going both ways it will be hard to distinguish between how much genuine Arab admixture there is. This is quite often the case with the Iraqi matches we have, which actually descend from Iranians who settled there and became arabized.

Ellerbe
10-17-2019, 03:14 AM
I noticed an Iranian from the behar et al 2013 dataset being pseudo Bedouin A-like (dubbed iran13) on an admixture run featuring iran N/ana N/natufian. So I am guessing the individual is an Iranian Arab. Anyways, I decided to investigate and found out that someone seemingly uploaded his/her raw file to gedmatch (kit Z026360).

Since no Iranians from the behar dataset were used in creating the k36 calculator, I will post his/her results from this calculator:

Arabian 19.79 Pct
Armenian 4.47 Pct

Central_Euro 0.37 Pct
East_African 0.99 Pct
East_Balkan 0.77 Pct
East_Med 14.66 Pct

Italian 6.86 Pct
Near_Eastern 17.79 Pct
North_African 1.21 Pct

North_Caucasian 6.73 Pct
Northeast_African 9.86 Pct
South_Central_Asian 10.86 Pct

West_African 0.68 Pct
West_Caucasian 4.95 Pct

Censored
10-17-2019, 03:29 AM
I noticed an Iranian from the behar et al 2013 dataset being Bedouin A-like (dubbed iran13). So I am guessing the individual is an Iranian Arab. Anyways, I decided to investigate and found out that someone seemingly uploaded his/her raw file to gedmatch (kit Z026360).

Since no Iranians from the behar dataset were used in creating the k36 calculator, I will post his/her results from this calculator:

Arabian 19.79 Pct
Armenian 4.47 Pct

Central_Euro 0.37 Pct
East_African 0.99 Pct
East_Balkan 0.77 Pct
East_Med 14.66 Pct

Italian 6.86 Pct
Near_Eastern 17.79 Pct
North_African 1.21 Pct

North_Caucasian 6.73 Pct
Northeast_African 9.86 Pct
South_Central_Asian 10.86 Pct

West_African 0.68 Pct
West_Caucasian 4.95 Pct

Fascinating. I would not have guessed that this sort of BedouinA genetic profile existed in Iran at all.

Ellerbe
10-17-2019, 03:38 AM
Fascinating. I would not have guessed that this sort of BedouinA genetic profile existed in Iran at all.

well he looked bedouin a-like on an admixture run featuring iran N, natufian, anatolia N, etc., etc.

i don't know how bedouin A's look on a k36 run, but i'm thinking they'd score a lot of near eastern and east med and very few amounts of north Caucasus and south central asian, if any at all.

Censored
10-17-2019, 03:42 AM
well he looked bedouin a-like on an admixture run featuring iran N, natufian, anatolia N, etc., etc.

i don't know how bedouin A's look on a k36 run, but i'm thinking they'd score a lot of near eastern and east med and very few amounts of north Caucasus and south central asian, if any at all.

Im going to do a similarity check.

Yup, it seems to be most similar to the southern levant. Very strange.

Ellerbe
10-17-2019, 03:43 AM
Can you post the full results for them?

K36 or the admixture run i'm referencing?

Censored
10-17-2019, 03:44 AM
K36 or the admixture run i'm referencing?

I thought it was missing some components but I was wrong. I entered them in to see the closest match on this:

https://gen3553.pagesperso-orange.fr/ADN/similitude.htm

Ellerbe
10-17-2019, 03:47 AM
I thought it was missing some components but I was wrong. I entered them in to see the closest match on this:

https://gen3553.pagesperso-orange.fr/ADN/similitude.htm

Ah, no, it's not. The gedmatch kit # was shared so you can verify on gedmatch too. The kit does not belong to me. Not sure who owns it.

Censored
10-17-2019, 04:01 AM
Ah, no, it's not. The gedmatch kit # was shared so you can verify on gedmatch too. The kit does not belong to me. Not sure who owns it.

Ok, I've checked a few calculators and it seems to be some sort of Arabian-Iranian mix rather than Bedouin-A like which is a Levantine/Arabian mix. It has an northeastern shift rather than a northwestern one.

Harappa:
1 54.4% iranian (behar) + 45.6% bedouin (hgdp) @ 4.03
2 52.7% kurd (harappa) + 47.3% bedouin (hgdp) @ 4.17
3 66% iraqi-arab (harappa) + 34% qatari (henn2012) @ 4.27
4 52% kurd (harappa) + 48% qatari (henn2012) @ 4.87
5 66.9% iraqi-arab (harappa) + 33.1% bedouin (hgdp) @ 4.94
6 50.5% turkish (harappa) + 49.5% qatari (henn2012) @ 5.02
7 54.7% uzbekistan-jew (behar) + 45.3% qatari (henn2012) @ 5.31
8 52.1% qatari (henn2012) + 47.9% azeri (harappa) @ 5.32
9 67.8% palestinian (harappa) + 32.2% qatari (henn2012) @ 5.35
10 50.2% qatari (henn2012) + 49.8% iranian (harappa) @ 5.52
11 55.4% iranian (behar) + 44.6% saudi (behar) @ 5.73
12 53.8% iranian (behar) + 46.2% qatari (henn2012) @ 5.83
13 68.4% iraqi-arab (harappa) + 31.6% saudi (behar) @ 5.87
14 62.3% yemen-jew (behar) + 37.7% tajik (yunusbayev) @ 5.93
15 52.7% qatari (henn2012) + 47.3% turk (behar) @ 5.99
16 53.8% kurd (harappa) + 46.2% saudi (behar) @ 6.01
17 51.7% qatari (henn2012) + 48.3% turk-kayseri (hodoglugil) @ 6.06
18 51.4% bedouin (hgdp) + 48.6% azeri (harappa) @ 6.06
19 51.3% turkish (harappa) + 48.7% bedouin (hgdp) @ 6.27
20 53.1% qatari (henn2012) + 46.9% turk-istanbul (hodoglugil) @ 6.28

Euro k13:
1 66.7% Saudi + 33.3% Tabassaran @ 7.62
2 66% Saudi + 34% Lezgin @ 7.95
3 71.2% Saudi + 28.8% Balochi @ 8.14
4 68.5% Saudi + 31.5% Makrani @ 8.15
5 71.2% Saudi + 28.8% Brahui @ 8.25
6 66.3% Saudi + 33.7% Chechen @ 8.37
7 65.9% Saudi + 34.1% Ossetian @ 8.5
8 53% Saudi + 47% Iranian @ 8.7
9 68.5% Saudi + 31.5% Afghan_Pashtun @ 8.72
10 66.6% Saudi + 33.4% North_Ossetian @ 8.92
11 65.3% Saudi + 34.7% Adygei @ 8.99
12 55.6% Saudi + 44.4% Kurdish @ 9.06
13 63% Saudi + 37% Kumyk @ 9.09
14 67.1% Saudi + 32.9% Tadjik @ 9.23
15 66.2% Saudi + 33.8% Kabardin @ 9.3
16 65.3% Saudi + 34.7% Georgian @ 9.37
17 53.6% Saudi + 46.4% Azeri @ 9.39
18 66.2% Saudi + 33.8% Balkar @ 9.42
19 66.8% Saudi + 33.2% Abhkasian @ 9.71
20 73.3% Saudi + 26.7% Kalash @ 9.82

MDLP K16 modern:
# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 60.6% BedouinA (Negev) + 39.4% Iranian (Kerman) @ 3.3
2 61.4% BedouinA (Negev) + 38.6% Iran_Lor (Lor) @ 3.57
3 63.3% BedouinA (Negev) + 36.7% Iranian (Iran) @ 3.6
4 64.5% BedouinA (Negev) + 35.5% Zoroastrian (Iran) @ 3.61
5 69% BedouinA (Negev) + 31% Iran_Mazandrani (Mazandrani) @ 3.62
6 64.4% BedouinA (Negev) + 35.6% Iranian (Fars) @ 3.69
7 53.4% Azeri (Azerbaijan) + 46.6% Saudi (Saudi_Arabia) @ 3.98
8 50.2% Zoroastrian (Iran) + 49.8% Saudi (Saudi_Arabia) @ 4.14
9 53.8% Kurd (Syria) + 46.2% Saudi (Saudi_Arabia) @ 4.14
10 72.5% BedouinA (Negev) + 27.5% Iranian (Bandari) @ 4.16
11 53.6% Saudi (Saudi_Arabia) + 46.4% Azerbaijani_Dagestan (Azerbaijan_Dagestan) @ 4.18
12 53.5% Iran_Lor (Lor) + 46.5% Saudi (Saudi_Arabia) @ 4.21
13 54.2% Iranian (Kerman) + 45.8% Saudi (Saudi_Arabia) @ 4.21
14 61.6% BedouinA (Negev) + 38.4% Kurd (Syria) @ 4.24
15 53.2% Iranian (Kerman) + 46.8% Jew (Yemen) @ 4.24
16 58% Jew (Uzbekistan) + 42% Saudi (Saudi_Arabia) @ 4.36
17 64.1% Iraki (Irak) + 35.9% Saudi (Saudi_Arabia) @ 4.47
18 50.4% Iranian (Fars) + 49.6% Saudi (Saudi_Arabia) @ 4.47
19 51.4% BedouinA (Negev) + 48.6% Iraki (Irak) @ 4.52
20 77.1% BedouinA (Negev) + 22.9% Pashtun (Afganistan) @ 4.58

Ellerbe
10-17-2019, 04:04 AM
Ok, I've checked a few calculators and it seems to be some sort of Arabian-Iranian mix rather than Bedouin-A like which is a Levantine/Arabian mix. It has an northeastern shift rather than a northwestern one.

Yes, just to clarify, I only meant to say he looked Bedouin A-like on an admixture run featuring natufian/ana N/iran N and then i proceeded to investigate from there. I am aware that he differs from Bedouin A's; as i previously mentioned, I don't think Bedouin A's would score much, if any, North Caucasus and South Central Asia on K36.

Patarames
10-17-2019, 05:50 PM
This news study revealed that Iranian Arabs are remarkably similar to other Iranian groups in terms of auDNA:
https://journals.plos.org/plosgenetics/article?id=10.1371/journal.pgen.1008385

Difference is of course somewhat elevated Levant_N.

Censored
10-17-2019, 06:36 PM
This news study revealed that Iranian Arabs are remarkably similar to other Iranian groups in terms of auDNA:
https://journals.plos.org/plosgenetics/article?id=10.1371/journal.pgen.1008385

Difference is of course somewhat elevated Levant_N.

I wish they included Mesopotamians in this study.

Glittronthfloor
10-24-2019, 06:29 PM
I'm Iranian from the south(although,in 23andme that was one of the weaker regions for me) and have Arab relatives and this is what I got.

Mother is Lur.

Censored
10-24-2019, 06:40 PM
I'm Iranian from the south(although,in 23andme that was one of the weaker regions for me) and have Arab relatives and this is what I got.

Mother is Lur.

Gedmatch oracles?

Glittronthfloor
10-24-2019, 07:15 PM
I honestly don't have a clue about these calculators..

K36

Glittronthfloor
10-24-2019, 07:28 PM
MDLP K16 modern:

Glittronthfloor
10-24-2019, 07:38 PM
Euro K13:

Censored
10-24-2019, 08:28 PM
Euro K13:

These are very normal results for a western Iranian. No Arab influence at all.

Glittronthfloor
10-24-2019, 08:42 PM
It's really weird though as on 23andme I scored 11.4% for Arab,Egyptian & Levantine.

Magnetic
10-25-2019, 05:40 PM
....

can I see your eurogenes k12b results please