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StillWater
07-21-2019, 06:21 PM
Most are full. Some are part Ashkenazi. Others are part Ukrainian etc. A couple are gentile locals from the neighborhood. From the footage, a lot of them have the surname Lombrozo in their family.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=96YUZ30-M5M

relevant article: https://avotaynuonline.com/2015/06/jews-of-crimea/

I wonder how good a proxy surnames are for their composition of Romaniote, Sephardi, Ashkenazi, and Mizrachi. I don't get why others aren't as interested in them. This is the diaspora of diasporas.

StillWater
07-21-2019, 07:31 PM
For those too lazy to read the article, the tentative conclusion of their composition is:

25-40% Sephardi
25-33% Ashkenazi
12-25% early/indeterminate/Romaniote
5-6% Caucasian Jews
5-6% Persian Jews

If only we had some genetic data.

StillWater
07-21-2019, 08:29 PM
*Jerome (d. 420; on Zech. 10:11, Obad. 20) heard from Jews that the Jewish settlers by the Bosporus were descended from families exiled by the Assyrians and Babylonians, and from deported warriors of *Bar Kokhba

from: https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/crimea

They truly are the master race.

hartaisarlag
07-22-2019, 12:37 AM
Most are full. Some are part Ashkenazi. Others are part Ukrainian etc. A couple are gentile locals from the neighborhood. From the footage, a lot of them have the surname Lombrozo in their family.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=96YUZ30-M5M

relevant article: https://avotaynuonline.com/2015/06/jews-of-crimea/

I wonder how good a proxy surnames are for their composition of Romaniote, Sephardi, Ashkenazi, and Mizrachi. I don't get why others aren't as interested in them. This is the diaspora of diasporas.

Lombrozo?!

Researching Tunisian Jews, I ran across that as a Livornese Sephardic name that became prominent in Tunis!

StillWater
07-22-2019, 12:52 AM
Lombrozo?!

Researching Tunisian Jews, I ran across that as a Livornese Sephardic name that became prominent in Tunis!

Very common amongst them, as is Sephardic ancestry. You should read the article I linked. They also have seemingly Italki names, possibly even some Provencal names.

StillWater
07-22-2019, 01:37 AM
This is so damn riveting, I should make a separate thread about this. Check back, as I'll be editing this post a lot with extra info (90 min video). Some of it I won't be quoting exactly, but paraphrasing, as it's fairly bothersome to find the same bits again:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d3BqQHmvOGc

Crimean Karaite communal representatives are featured on this show. They mention a couple times how they're all half "Karaim", but there might be pure ones amongst, just shy of announcing it. For example, the man with the long beard and long white hair next to the host, surnamed Lebedev, has an ethnic Russian father. Some notable instances:

-The host appears to have Jewish origins, judging by his line of questioning,demeanor during certain topics, and knowledge (atypical for a Russian to instantly recognize a Ketuba and to know that mixing meat and dairy isn't Kosher). Also when one of the Karaim says "We have an expression: '2 Karaim, 3 opinions', the host replies: 'believe me, you're not the only ones/ethnos with that phrase' ". Despite this not being TA, his phenotype also suggests it, but I only bring this up in conjunction with the previous info and because it's relevant to how we see him react to their claims.

-At one point, the host becomes very curious to know about their origins relative to Jews and asks particularly about their DNA. This is where we see a hilarious disagreement emerge. One of them begins to allude to a recent DNA study, almost surely Kevin Brook's. Will be neat if he chimes in on this. And recalls its conclusion being that over 50% of the paternal lineages are Middle Eastern, then the sentence turns abrupt and he seems to say that 10% are Turkic, all the while Lebedev is furiously shaking his head. Lebedev appears to be the main one pushing the theory that they're a Turkic nation, while the rest of the panel seems to either disagree with him fully or partially, as judged by their demeanor and jokes, as opposed to clear comments to the contrary. The speaker then mentions the following, either to please Lebedev or he may genuinely think so: Abraham came from Mesopotamia, which was a melting pot, and that ancient followers of the Torah came out of this melting pot and hence they're of a broadly "Sumerian" ethnos, as opposed to being pigeon holed as "Jewish". Of course, this kind of reasoning would make all modern day Jews non-Jewish and wouldn't only apply to Crimean Karaites. He then talks about the Assyrian/Babylonian exiles and their migrations within West Asia to Central Asia, none of which Lebedev likes, as none of this is native to Crimea. The host isn't fooled by this "broadly Sumerian" nonsense, and requalifies this as a theory of Jewish origin for them, to which, the initial speaker, seemingly panicked, quickly mentions that their maternal lineages might be largely Turkic. Lebedev then has his turn to speak and declares them a fully Turkic nation.

-When the Khazars are brought up, Lebedev and/or other speakers (I have to go back and rewatch it), said that the Jewish Khazars were Karaim. They further went on to mention much of the Crimean Karaite role within the region was based on business and related it to how they interacted with other Khazars, but I forget the details (will mention later).

-A claim was made, that went unchallenged by the panel, and seemingly supported by at least some, that Peter The Great's mother was a Crimean Karaite. Peter's phenotype was brought up as testament to this. This is a startling claim given what Peter said about the Jews, although it can be argued that his identity played a role in that too. This was claimed to be a core reason of why Karaim had allegedly great relations with the Russian Royals. Details were added about Crimean Karaites acting as royal guards, but I snoozed a bit here (will add details later).

-The host asked about Krymchaks. Lebedev, as expected, claimed that Krymchaks simply descend from Crimean Karaites who eventually adopted the Talmud and stresses that they're a pure Turkic nation. He mentions relevant details to this, but I forget them. Tune in later when I add them in.

-The host asks about the typical Karaim phenotype, and of course, they end up inevitably describing a Jew.

I will add/correct details later, but invite other Russian-speakers to contribute to that.

StillWater
07-22-2019, 02:30 AM
This is the best thread on the site. It should have a billion replies. Why aren't others interested in the most interesting topic? If Agamemnon doesn't post here, it'll be like him not showing up to his own birthday party.

jonahst
07-22-2019, 02:43 AM
Crimean Karaite communal representatives are featured on this show. They mention a couple times how they're all half "Karaim", but there might be pure ones amongst, just shy of announcing it. For example, the man with the long beard and long white hair next to the host, surnamed Lebedev, has an ethnic Russian father.

I was actually gonna say, the guy in the thumbnail does not look very Jewish :lol:

StillWater
07-22-2019, 02:44 AM
I was actually gonna say, the guy in the thumbnail does not look very Jewish :lol:

I was also puzzled for a while, till he eventually mentioned it.

jonahst
07-22-2019, 02:52 AM
I was also puzzled for a while, till he eventually mentioned it.

I edited my original comment, haha, I realized my initial statement was a little extreme. There are Jews who look somewhat similar. But he looks much more like Rasputin than Marx.

Erikl86
07-22-2019, 06:28 AM
This is the best thread on the site. It should have a billion replies. Why aren't others interested in the most interesting topic? If Agamemnon doesn't post here, it'll be like him not showing up to his own birthday party.

While I do admire your enthusiasm on this matter (and pretty much shares it), I must say that you should be careful as some of your posts, especially on this thread, gives a vibe of a certain website many of us try to avoid (another example is the your dwelling on phenotype in some of your comments and remarks such as "They truly are the master race."...).

Just a friendly advice.

As for the thread itself. Well, Crimean Karaite rejection of their Levantine origin is rooted in the 19th century, on the works of Abraham Firkovich, a Karaite Hacham, who claimed they are the descendants of Israelite teachers who had arrived in Crimea to convert the natives before the Jesus' times, thus not being culpable for the crucifixion of Jesus. He managed to convince the Imperial Russian government that Crimean Karaites cannot be accused in Jesus' crucifixion and they were excluded from the restrictive measures against Jews, which were rampant during the 19th century.

His work was later also used during WW2, to help persuade the Nazis that Crimean Karaites both in Crimea and in Lithuania are not "racially" Jewish (Rabbinate Jews also assisted in this, to help save life).

Of course, recent genetics, and especially the in-depth work done by Kevin Brook, have shown that Karaite Jews mostly descend from Levantine Jews with some local admixture similar to other diaspora Rabbinate Jews. Crimean Karaites even share few subclades with Ashkenazi Jews.

Targum
07-22-2019, 06:44 AM
While I do admire your enthusiasm on this matter (and pretty much shares it), I must say that you should be careful as some of your posts, especially on this thread, gives a vibe of a certain website many of us try to avoid (another example is the your dwelling on phenotype in some of your comments and remarks such as "They truly are the master race."...).

Just a friendly advice.

As for the thread itself. Well, Crimean Karaite rejection of their Levantine origin is rooted in the 19th century, on the works of Abraham Firkovich, a Karaite Hacham, who claimed where the descendants of Israelite teachers who had arrived in Crimea to convert the natives before the Jesus' times, thus not being culpable for the crucifixion of Jesus. He managed to convince the Imperial Russian government that Crimean Karaites cannot be accused in Jesus' crucifixion and they were excluded from the restrictive measures against Jews, which were rampant during the 19th century.

His work was later also used during WW2, to help persuade the Nazis that Crimean Karaites both in Crimea and in Lithuania are not "racially" Jewish (Rabbinate Jews also assisted in this, to help save life).

Of course, recent genetics, and especially and in-depth work done by Kevin Brook, have shown that Karaite Jews mostly descend from Levantine Jews with some local admixture similar to Jews. Crimean Karaites even share few subclades with Ashkenazi Jews.
As do the Krymchaks, the Crimean non-Karaite, Rabbinic (religiously mainstream ) Jews; mixed Romaniote, Ashkenazi,Mizrahhi and Sefaradi

StillWater
07-22-2019, 06:49 AM
While I do admire your enthusiasm on this matter (and pretty much shares it), I must say that you should be careful as some of your posts, especially on this thread, gives a vibe of a certain website many of us try to avoid (another example is the your dwelling on phenotype in some of your comments and remarks such as "They truly are the master race."...).

Just a friendly advice.

As for the thread itself. Well, Crimean Karaite rejection of their Levantine origin is rooted in the 19th century, on the works of Abraham Firkovich, a Karaite Hacham, who claimed where the descendants of Israelite teachers who had arrived in Crimea to convert the natives before the Jesus' times, thus not being culpable for the crucifixion of Jesus. He managed to convince the Imperial Russian government that Crimean Karaites cannot be accused in Jesus' crucifixion and they were excluded from the restrictive measures against Jews, which were rampant during the 19th century.

His work was later also used during WW2, to help persuade the Nazis that Crimean Karaites both in Crimea and in Lithuania are not "racially" Jewish (Rabbinate Jews also assisted in this, to help save life).

Of course, recent genetics, and especially and in-depth work done by Kevin Brook, have shown that Karaite Jews mostly descend from Levantine Jews with some local admixture similar to Jews. Crimean Karaites even share few subclades with Ashkenazi Jews.

I'm familiar where the rejection stems from. You speak Russian, don't you? I recall you mentioning having a Soviet parent in this thread. Phenotypes were brought up on the show itself, the host's as well. I completely contextualized why I brought it up. While you frame this as "friendly advice", you should watch the show first. As for "They truly are the master race", give me a break. Are you telling me you can't tell it's not a serious comment?

Erikl86
07-22-2019, 08:18 AM
I'm familiar where the rejection stems from. You speak Russian, don't you? I recall you mentioning having a Soviet parent in this thread. Phenotypes were brought up on the show itself, the host's as well. I completely contextualized why I brought it up. While you frame this as "friendly advice", you should watch the show first. As for "They truly are the master race", give me a break. Are you telling me you can't tell it's not a serious comment?

Of course I can, and I don't mind talking about phenotype, the advice wasn't from my side, it's just that every now and then, a Moderator comes a long, and they do not actively participate in each and every thread, so your posts might be taken in the wrong context. As for me - bring on full sarcasm and dark humor jokes, I'm Jewish ain't I? ;) (and an Israeli, so we are notoriously blatant).

StillWater
07-22-2019, 08:28 AM
Of course I can, and I don't mind talking about phenotype, the advice wasn't from my side, it's just that every now and then, a Moderator comes a long, and they do not actively participate in each and every thread, so your posts might be taken in the wrong context. As for me - bring on full sarcasm and dark humor jokes, I'm Jewish ain't I? ;) (and an Israeli, so we are notoriously blatant).

Regarding phenotype, the Mod would have to not just take my post out of context, but the quote out of the post's context. However, thanks for looking out. If you do what I suspect you might you do: collect DNA samples from Israelis, then you should really get some from Krymchaks. The largest number of them live in Israel. Soon enough, there won't be any.

Erikl86
07-22-2019, 08:51 AM
As do the Krymchaks, the Crimean non-Karaite, Rabbinic (religiously mainstream ) Jews; mixed Romaniote, Ashkenazi,Mizrahhi and Sefaradi

Yes, of course. Honestly, the theory that Karaites or Krymchaks are of Khazar ancestry is shaky, at best, even before the genetic evidence, for several reasons:



Wrong language subgroup - Karaim, or Leshon Tatar לשון טטר as its called by the Karaim/Krymchaks, belong to the Northwestern Kipchak Turkic family, while Khazar most likely belonged to the Southwestern Oghur Turkic family. - this was highly debated as very few written evidence from Turkic Khazar dialect survived.
The fact that the Karaites called their language Leshon Tatar - which shows it was most likely adopted after the arrival of the Tatars to Crimea, so much later than the Khazars.
The fact that just like Yiddish or Ladino or Judeo-Arabic - Karaim or Leshon Tatar לשון טטר was written in Hebrew (before the 20th century), but contains Medieval Hebrew words, showing the Karaite Jews of Crimea brought with them knowledge of Hebrew well after Second Temple era (obviously):


https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/he/thumb/d/d0/Karaimsk_language.JPG/800px-Karaimsk_language.JPG



The fact that the Karaim/Leshon Tatar includes substantial Arabic and Persian words, that did not penetrate from nearby Tatars (although some did), showing that the Crimean Karaites' forefathers most likely spoke Judeo-Arabic and Judeo-Iranian languages before settling in Crimea. This also gives merit to Mizrahi admixture among Krymchaks (since Judeo-Iranian and Judeo-Arabic dialects would come to Crimea from Babylonia and Persia).

Erikl86
07-22-2019, 08:55 AM
Regarding phenotype, the Mod would have to not just take my post out of context, but the quote out of the post's context. However, thanks for looking out. If you do what I suspect you might you do: collect DNA samples from Israelis, then you should really get some from Krymchaks. The largest number of them live in Israel. Soon enough, there won't be any.

Unfortunately, pristine Krymchaks are almost impossible to find in Israel. I think they are all already intermarried, and since the Krymchaks themselves are of "mixed" background - Ashkenazi, Romaniote, Sephardi and Mizrahi - it would be extremely difficult to tell whether or not they are indeed pristine Krymchaks or mixed in Israel (unless one has good Krymchak reference).

artemv
07-22-2019, 01:58 PM
Unfortunately, pristine Krymchaks are almost impossible to find in Israel. I think they are all already intermarried, and since the Krymchaks themselves are of "mixed" background - Ashkenazi, Romaniote, Sephardi and Mizrahi - it would be extremely difficult to tell whether or not they are indeed pristine Krymchaks or mixed in Israel (unless one has good Krymchak reference).

Yes, I guess this is the point about young generation people. But there might be still some older people alive, born before the WW2.

Targum
07-22-2019, 03:53 PM
Unfortunately, pristine Krymchaks are almost impossible to find in Israel. I think they are all already intermarried, and since the Krymchaks themselves are of "mixed" background - Ashkenazi, Romaniote, Sephardi and Mizrahi - it would be extremely difficult to tell whether or not they are indeed pristine Krymchaks or mixed in Israel (unless one has good Krymchak reference).
Like many of the former USSR Jews (excluding Bukhara, Georgian and Mountain from the 70’s, who had almost zero intermarriage) Krymchak couples coming to Israel as two Jews were/are rare but at least in Israel something of the unique Krymchak heritage has a chance to be preserved , if not survive, as they are 100% secular and ignorant of the tradition which once was literate and had influence.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chaim_Hezekiah_Medini

Targum
07-22-2019, 03:54 PM
Unfortunately, pristine Krymchaks are almost impossible to find in Israel. I think they are all already intermarried, and since the Krymchaks themselves are of "mixed" background - Ashkenazi, Romaniote, Sephardi and Mizrahi - it would be extremely difficult to tell whether or not they are indeed pristine Krymchaks or mixed in Israel (unless one has good Krymchak reference).
Like many of the former USSR Jews (excluding Bukhara, Georgian and Mountain from the 70’s, who had almost zero intermarriage) Krymchak couples coming to Israel as two Jews were/are rare but at least in Israel something of the unique Krymchak heritage has a chance to be preserved , if not survive, as they are 100% secular and ignorant of the tradition which once was literate and had influence.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chaim_Hezekiah_Medini

artemv
07-22-2019, 04:42 PM
Like many of the former USSR Jews (excluding Bukhara, Georgian and Mountain from the 70’s, who had almost zero intermarriage) Krymchak couples coming to Israel as two Jews were/are rare

No. Those who migrated to Israel in 70-s and at the end of 80-s where Zionist and unmixed Jews, those mixed were a minority. People of mixed heritage in the end of 80-s had an option to immigrate to USA or Germany and in most cases chose US/Germany. Some unmixed Jews also emigrated to US/Europe.
Those who moved to Israel first years during USSR collapse and first years after collapse where also mostly 100% Jews, but this wave had already significant numbers immigrants of mixed origin.
Anyway, in 90th I guess any post-Soviet Jew asked himself 'should I move'? That what happens if you see that vast majority of your group moves.

Those who stayed after 1994 were almost all mixed or already old, with their kids unready to move because of mixed marriage.

So returning to Krymchak, before the WW2 they mixed with Ashkenazy Jews, as Ashkenazy Jews migrated to Crimea, but some 100% Krymchak kids were still born before WW2 and it is still possible to find some of them alive.

Targum
07-22-2019, 04:46 PM
True as I said about some 70’s ‘Olim from USSR,( I was living and working there and met hundreds) but Krymchaki even then we’re rare and generally intermarried

StillWater
07-22-2019, 05:09 PM
Like many of the former USSR Jews (excluding Bukhara, Georgian and Mountain from the 70’s, who had almost zero intermarriage) Krymchak couples coming to Israel as two Jews were/are rare but at least in Israel something of the unique Krymchak heritage has a chance to be preserved , if not survive, as they are 100% secular and ignorant of the tradition which once was literate and had influence.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chaim_Hezekiah_Medini

This is a bullshit anti-"Russi" oleh myth, one which is born out of such sentiment and one which propagates it further. Your statement about the 70's Soviet aliyah applies to both Soviet Mizrachim and Soviet Ashkenazim - I've never met a 70's Soviet oleh who wasn't Jewish, even if intermarriage was noticeable back in the USSR. As for the time frame that matters here, >1990, around 15% are estimated to have not been Jewish, which means around 30% of the couples would've not consisted of 2 Jews. This is consistent with this:


In 1988, a year before the immigration wave began, 58% of married Jewish men and 47% of married Jewish women in the Soviet Union had a non-Jewish spouse.[28]


And this is before self-selection. Given that this is pre-Aliyah, these stats were almost surely taken based on Soviet records/passports. When a Soviet citizen was born, the ethnicity of his parents was registered on his birth certificate. When he was older, a single ethnicity was chosen for his documents if his parents differed in ethnicity. One would have to be clinically retarded or simply hate their kid to register him as Jewish when they could get around it. So, you can trust that this statistic reflects full Jews.

It's really hard to walk away with the impression that Soviet Jewish couples "were/are rare".

edit: My tone was probably too harsh here given that you didn't mean any malice. However, this myth should've died decades ago.

Agamemnon
07-22-2019, 05:19 PM
Very common amongst them, as is Sephardic ancestry. You should read the article I linked. They also have seemingly Italki names, possibly even some Provencal names.

I can confirm that. When my paternal grandmother and her family arrived in Marseille (from Istanbul where they'd lived for a decade following the Civil war), the immigration officer was very puzzled by her mother's surname and told her that "this is a Grognard (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Guard_(France)#Les_Grognards) surname". Honestly never paid much attention to this until I started looking into the name's etymology, and while it isn't too popular nowadays in Provence (I know because I live here), it used to be much more popular prior to 1965.

StillWater
07-22-2019, 05:47 PM
Despite all the efforts by the Crimean Karaite elders, I don't think their writings are the main reason why some of the panel propagated the myth of Turkic origin. I've transcribed the panel's names:

Alexander Evgenyevich Maykapar
Aleksei Eremeyevich?(hard to hear) Sarach ('ch' as in choose)
Marina Evgeyevna Kumish/Kumysh/Koomysh (last vowel sound is unique to Russian)
Nikolai Valentinovich Kachanov ('ch' as in choose)
Vyacheslav (no patrynomic stated at the start) Lebedev
Valery Nikolaevich Erinchek ('ch' as in choose)
Oleg Vasilevich Dubinsky
Maria Vyacheslavovna Arabadzhi (the "zh" is a consonant unique to Russian, used in "zhid" - Russian for "kike". I think the polish "zyd" is pronounced the same way.)
Elena Borisovna Arabadzhi

Their first names do not reflect the distribution of Russian first names. Imagine running into a group of Jews, where almost each one is named Connor, Doyle, Dylan etc. Soviet Jews utterly avoided certain Russian first names; good luck meeting a Jewish Nikolai or Vasily. The only Jewish Vasily I can think of is Vasily Grossman, whose name wasn't given to him by his parents, but used as a nickname by his Russian/Ukrainian nanny. He ended up adopting it later as his first name. From the male names on the list, Alexander is the one name commonly used by Jews, with Oleg and Valery being rare. Rest of the male names are unheard of among Jews. Nevermind, that they're unheard of among Jews, a random sample of ethnic Russians won't yield such a list of names. It's as if their parents attempted to give them the most gentile names possible. What best explains this is an attempt to dissociate themselves with Jews in order to avoid Soviet Antisemitism. This probably began with the parents Russifying their own names around the revolution. Oleg's father was Vasily. Valery's is Nikolai. Maria's is Vyacheslav. Some of my great-grandparents also russified their first names and patronymics around the time of the revolution, but none chose such names. I conclude that their propagation of the Turkic myth is largely a consequence of Soviet Antisemitism. The only other explanation I can imagine is that these names were typical among the gentile population in Crimea, but I didn't get the impression that the panel was born in Crimea.

artemv
07-22-2019, 06:53 PM
True as I said about some 70’s ‘Olim from USSR,( I was living and working there and met hundreds) but Krymchaki even then we’re rare and generally intermarried

Do not understand how could you get enough statistics about Krymchaks. You worked in SU Crimea? You worked in misrad a-klita in 70s?
Intermarried - you mean intermarried with Ashkenazim or with non-Jews?
Krymchaks were never a big group, that could be compared to Ashekenazim. Probably about 20000 - 30000 at max. In 70s outside SU there was a little chance to meet a single Jew from Crimea. And even if you meet one, that Jew from Crimea would likely be Ashkenazi or of mixed Ashkenazi/Krymchak ancestry.

StillWater
07-22-2019, 06:59 PM
I can confirm that. When my paternal grandmother and her family arrived in Marseille (from Istanbul where they'd lived for a decade following the Civil war), the immigration officer was very puzzled by her mother's surname and told her that "this is a Grognard (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Guard_(France)#Les_Grognards) surname". Honestly never paid much attention to this until I started looking into the name's etymology, and while it isn't too popular nowadays in Provence (I know because I live here), it used to be much more popular prior to 1965.

Will appreciate if you can comment on anything else written about Krymchaks.

What do you think about the claim regarding Bar Kokhba's soldiers? How connected were Krymchaks to other Romaniotes prior to Medini? How connected were they to the Mizrachi world? Do you speak any Krymchak? Are there resources on it? What were common migrations of Krymchaks out of Crimea during different time periods?

Anything interesting you can mention will be appreciated.

artemv
07-22-2019, 07:06 PM
Alexander Evgenyevich Maykapar
Aleksei Eremeyevich?(hard to hear) Sarach ('ch' as in choose)
Marina Evgeyevna Kumish/Kumysh/Koomysh (last vowel sound is unique to Russian)


That last vowel is not unique to Russian, it's very common in some other Slavic and Turkic languages.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yery
All the 3 family names sound like having some Tartar or other Turkic ethimilogy.
That doesn't mean I think Krimchaks are mostly Tartar genetically.

StillWater
07-22-2019, 07:09 PM
That last vowel is not unique to Russian, it's very common in some other Slavic and Turkic languages.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yery
All the 3 family names sound like having some Tartar or other Turkic ethimilogy.
That doesn't mean I think Krimchaks are mostly Tartar genetically.

That's correct. I should've said that it doesn't exist in English and related languages.

StillWater
07-23-2019, 08:15 PM
For Erikl86 and anyone willing to get DNA samples from Krymchaks:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3aJVWJY5r_c

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BsO2RfspDX4

Contact the youtuber. His name is Mikhail Izmerli. All the footage is in Israel.

Targum
07-23-2019, 08:19 PM
For Erikl86 and anyone willing to get DNA samples from Krymchaks:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3aJVWJY5r_c

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BsO2RfspDX4

Contact the youtuber. His name is Mikhail Izmerli. All the footage is in Israel.

awesome Thank you @StillWater (translated the captions to YouTube Hebrew though)
I know this site abhors "looks" comparisons, but this group has total, 100% overlap with any group of elderly Ashkenazim anywhere

StillWater
07-23-2019, 08:30 PM
awesome Thank you @StillWater

Obviously, one should ask about their genealogy. Those with recent Ashkenazi etc ancestry will know about it. One has to be careful with the translation to make sure they understand they're being asked specifically about non-Krymchakalar(sp?) ancestry, so that they don't lump in known Ashkenazi ancestors from Crimea. Should they say that a given family comes from an Ashkenazi line, that's fine, as many of them do, which makes them interesting, just as long as they can't point to a full Ashkenazi ancestor within recent times. Either way, the data should be useful (phasing,uniparentals, segment matching etc), as long as we have the necessary context for it.

artemv
07-24-2019, 12:38 AM
For Erikl86 and anyone willing to get DNA samples from Krymchaks:

Contact the youtuber. His name is Mikhail Izmerli. All the footage is in Israel.

What he said in Russian is:
First video
Man's voice:"Today at 10th of May 2013, we are in Israel in Bet Shemesh forest, and our dear Krimchaks are here, who gathered here from all our spanless country (usually Russia is called spanless in Russian partiotic speaches, but in this video he calls Israel a spanless country, I guess this is sort of humour)".
Woman's voice: "This has already became a tradition every year in the Victory day..."
Man's voice:"Every year in the victory day we do our best to gather in this park. David could you please tell us about ...(hard to get it about what)"
Old man (must be David): "I'm happy we all could gather here to remember out fathers, mothers, grandfathers, grandmothers. There was a story called 'blue bird'. Boys and girls went deep into the forest and saw there their grandfather and grandmother, who have passed long ago, and came to speak to the Old ones. Kids were shoked: "but you're dead!". "We return to live every time when someone remembers us". This toast is for our children and grandchildren, so that they will remember us like we remember our passed".
Several voices: "Lehaim!"
Everyone drinks.
Man's voice: "please show everyone at the table".
Operator moves the camera and shows.
Mans voice: "That was great David, such a wonderfull toast".

Artemv's comment: The Krymchaks on this video speak Russian without any accent, and behave themselves quite like Soviet people do. The Victory day is about victory over Nazi Germany, that is selebrated at 9th of May in Russia.
There is no way to say 'grandparents' in Russian, so David said 'grandmother and grandfather'.
There are two flags, one is official flag of state of Israel, on the second one it is written in Russian "happy Victory day!".

Second video
"Year 2014, Israel. We are in Bet-Shemesh park with my religious friend and we are going to pray here that all our Krymchak people will gather here and live peacefully on this land". After that they speak Hebrew.

StillWater
07-24-2019, 12:56 AM
Pretty cool video: A Crimean Karaite descendant gives a detailed summary of Crimean Karaites, with little-to-no Turkic nonsense (all in English):


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YVRhy9g2fJ8

He mentions a Greek language they used to speak: "Karaitika", which might imply they fit the Western/Hellenistic cluster.

Erikl86
07-24-2019, 04:32 AM
@StillWater great find ! @artemv thanks for the detailed translation. I will try to contact them.

@StillWater regarding the last video you posted (about the Crimean Karaite) - it has long been postulated that they are related to the Constantinople Karaites (or more generally - other Byzantine Karaites) and so in a sense basically descend from Karaite Romaniotes, similar to Krymchaks (which descend from Romaniotes).

However, there must be also admixture with Babylonian and/or Persian Karaites later on (again, similar to how Krymchaks also absorbed Mizrahi Jews), because of their traditions of how to interpret the Tanakh (among Karaites, there is no oral law like Talmud or Mishnah which they reject, but over the centuries they gathered a collection of how their "Hachamim" חכמים - Karaite equivalent to Rabbis in a sense, have been interpreting the Tanakh) which also had "updates" from other Karaite centers of thought, and of course the linguistic evidence in the form of Arabic and Persian words in their language, Karaim.

Targum
07-24-2019, 04:39 AM
What he said in Russian is:
First video
Man's voice:"Today at 10th of May 2013, we are in Israel in Bet Shemesh forest, and our dear Krimchaks are here, who gathered here from all our spanless country (usually Russia is called spanless in Russian partiotic speaches, but in this video he calls Israel a spanless country, I guess this is sort of humour)".
Woman's voice: "This has already became a tradition every year in the Victory day..."
Man's voice:"Every year in the victory day we do our best to gather in this park. David could you please tell us about ...(hard to get it about what)"
Old man (must be David): "I'm happy we all could gather here to remember out fathers, mothers, grandfathers, grandmothers. There was a story called 'blue bird'. Boys and girls went deep into the forest and saw there their grandfather and grandmother, who have passed long ago, and came to speak to the Old ones. Kids were shoked: "but you're dead!". "We return to live every time when someone remembers us". This toast is for our children and grandchildren, so that they will remember us like we remember our passed".
Several voices: "Lehaim!"
Everyone drinks.
Man's voice: "please show everyone at the table".
Operator moves the camera and shows.
Mans voice: "That was great David, such a wonderfull toast".

Artemv's comment: The Krymchaks on this video speak Russian without any accent, and behave themselves quite like Soviet people do. The Victory day is about victory over Nazi Germany, that is selebrated at 9th of May in Russia.
There is no way to say 'grandparents' in Russian, so David said 'grandmother and grandfather'.
There are two flags, one is official flag of state of Israel, on the second one it is written in Russian "happy Victory day!".

Second video
"Year 2014, Israel. We are in Bet-Shemesh park with my religious friend and we are going to pray here that all our Krymchak people will gather here and live peacefully on this land". After that they speak Hebrew.
And similar blessings of health and life in Hebrew, thanking G-d, and the Krymchak man on the right in the second video is an emissary of Chabad-Lubavitch, a world wide Jewish outreach. Note the Krymchaks are fully Rabbinic(i.e. not Karaite) and the Tefillin worn by the man on the left are normative among all Orthodox Jews.

Erikl86
07-24-2019, 04:49 AM
And similar blessings of health and life in Hebrew, thanking G-d, and the Krymchak man on the right in the second video is an emissary of Chabad-Lubavitch, a world wide Jewish outreach. Note the Krymchaks are fully Rabbinic, and the Tefillin worn by the man on the left are normative among all Orthodox Jews.

This has caught my eyes immediately as well - no Karaite would ever be caught wearing Tefillin (מניח תפילין).

StillWater
07-24-2019, 04:51 AM
I decided to transcribe some names from the video in the OP. I made it about 16 min through. I don't have an ear for names I haven't heard before, so there may be mistakes. Only a couple have first names and patronymics not typical of Soviet Ashkenazim of that period: Aleksey, Alekseyvna, Ivanovich. I'll bold the surnames.

Raisa Petrovna Levi
Parents: Pinhas Davidovich Levi, Rivetta/Revekka? Iosevna Levi

Chaim Yudovich Hafus/Hafuz
Parents: Yudam/Yudamin?(first name hard to make out, make Artem will give it a shot) Nehemovich Hafus
Maria Illinchna Hafus

Aleksei Mikhailovich Gurdzhi/Gurdji
Parents: Mikhail Markovich Gurdji
Ekaterina Yurevna Gurdji

Phillip Alexanderovich Achkinaze
Parents: Aron Achkinaze
Esfir Piastro

Yakov Zinovievich Shalom
Parents: says both surnamed Shalom

Mark Solomonovich Shteynberg (Steinberg)
Parents: Solomon Moiseyevich Shteynberg
Vera Naumovna Shteynberg

Chaya Yudovna Bakshi
Parents: Yuda (can't hear patronymic) Lumbrozo/Lombrozo, Yevgenya Iosevna (no surname given)

Inna Mikhailovna Muratova/Muratov
Parents: interviewer forgot
Grandma: Berta Semenovna Zingen/Zingin(hard to make out)

Gert? Abramovich Roytman
Parents: Abram Solomonovich Roytman
Mother: doesn't remember

Leonid Illich Achkinazi
Parents:Ilya Ivanovich Achkinazi
Eva Yakovelevna Kukoz/Kukot/Kokot (hard to make out)

Yulia Mikhailovna Achkinazi
Parents: Mikhail Anifomevich? Scherbakov
Tatiana Alekseyvna Scherbakova (Scherbakov)


Roytman , ne Chernapolskaya (Chernapolsky)
Chernapolsky (Ashkenazi or non-Jewish based on the conversation)
Tamara Lazarevna Takatli

Zinaida Mikhailovna Shalom
Parents: Suleimanov
Mother's maiden name: Berman

Ilya Benyaminov Achkenazi

Nina Davydovna Lumbrozo/Lombrozo
Parents: David Mikhailovich Israel (says he wasn't a Krymchak (but seems to mumble it quickly. . Must be Ashkenazi then by name) (16:11, maybe Artem can give a second opinion)
Mother's maiden name: Chube/Chuba

I'll transcribe the rest later.

Targum
07-24-2019, 05:09 AM
Hi
I decided to transcribe some names from the video in the OP. I made it about 16 min through. I don't have an ear for names I haven't heard before, so there may be mistakes. Only a couple have first names and patronymics not typical of Soviet Ashkenazim of that period: Aleksey, Alekseyvna, Ivanovich. I'll bold the surnames.

Raisa Petrovna Levi
Parents: Pinhas Davidovich Levi, Rivetta/Revekka? Iosevna Levi

Chaim Yudovich Hafus/Hafuz
Parents: Yudam/Yudamin?(first name hard to make out, make Artem will give it a shot) Nehemovich Hafus
Maria Illinchna Hafus

Aleksei Mikhailovich Gurdzhi/Gurdji
Parents: Mikhail Markovich Gurdji
Ekaterina Yurevna Gurdji

Phillip Alexanderovich Achkinaze
Parents: Aron Achkinaze
Esfir Piastro

Yakov Zinovievich Shalom
Parents: says both surnamed Shalom

Mark Solomonovich Shteynberg (Steinberg)
Parents: Solomon Moiseyevich Shteynberg
Vera Naumovna Shteynberg

Chaya Yudovna Bakshi
Parents: Yuda (can't hear patronymic) Lumbrozo/Lombrozo, Yevgenya Iosevna (no surname given)

Inna Mikhailovna Muratova/Muratov
Parents: interviewer forgot
Grandma: Berta Semenovna Zingen/Zingin(hard to make out)

Gert? Abramovich Roytman
Parents: Abram Solomonovich Roytman
Mother: doesn't remember

Leonid Illich Achkinazi
Parents:Ilya Ivanovich Achkinazi
Eva Yakovelevna Kukoz/Kukot/Kokot (hard to make out)

Yulia Mikhailovna Achkinazi
Parents: Mikhail Anifomevich? Scherbakov
Tatiana Alekseyvna Scherbakova (Scherbakov)


Roytman , ne Chernapolskaya (Chernapolsky)
Chernapolsky (Ashkenazi or non-Jewish based on the conversation)
Tamara Lazarevna Takatli

Zinaida Mikhailovna Shalom
Parents: Suleimanov
Mother's maiden name: Berman

Ilya Benyaminov Achkenazi

Nina Davydovna Lumbrozo/Lombrozo
Parents: David Mikhailovich Israel (says he wasn't a Krymchak (but seems to mumble it quickly. . Must be Ashkenazi then by name) (16:11, maybe Artem can give a second opinion)
Mother's maiden name: Chube/Chuba

I'll transcribe the rest later.
Hmm Gurdji means Georgian, as in Kartvelian. In the 19th Century the Georgian-origin Jewish community of Jerusalem were called “ Gurdjim”
As to Bakshi, Ralph Bakshi directed the first full length X-Rated cartoon in Hollywood, in 1972, called Fritz the Cat”, yes I saw it and yes Bakshi is of Krymchak descent.

StillWater
07-24-2019, 05:18 AM
Hi
Hmm Gurdji means Georgian, as in Kartvelian. In the 19th Century the Georgian-origin Jewish community of Jerusalem were called “ Gurdjim”
As to Bakshi, Ralph Bakshi directed the first full length X-Rated cartoon in Hollywood, in 1972, called Fritz the Cat”, yes I saw it and yes Bakshi is of Krymchak descent.

Bakshi is the one Krymchak known in the west. I also know which cartoon you're referring to. He made 2 Jewish-themed animated films: Wizards and American Pop. Both are good. Kanye West used the latter for a music video.

jonahst
07-24-2019, 05:22 AM
Is Bakshi an exclusively Krymchak name among Jews? I know there's an Israeli pop star named Idan Bakshi, but I wouldn't have guessed he was Krymchak or part Krymchak.

StillWater
07-24-2019, 05:24 AM
Is Bakshi an exclusively Krymchak name among Jews? I know there's an Israeli pop star named Idan Bakshi, but I wouldn't have guessed he was Krymchak or part Krymchak.

I've also seen other Jews with it. I think some Turkish Jews and even non-Jews use it. Not sure though. There was also a famous non-Krymchak Rabbi with it.

StillWater
07-24-2019, 05:26 AM
The famous Rabbi: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eliyahu_Bakshi-Doron

according to wiki: "Bakshi is also a Jewish surname, from the Turkish word for garden."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bakshi

jonahst
07-24-2019, 05:48 AM
The famous Rabbi: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eliyahu_Bakshi-Doron

according to wiki: "Bakshi is also a Jewish surname, from the Turkish word for garden."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bakshi

So I guess it's also Persian Jewish. The singer looks pretty Mizrahi to me, so makes more sense haha.

https://www.instagram.com/idan_bakshiofficial/?hl=en

StillWater
07-24-2019, 05:58 AM
This is so damn riveting, I should make a separate thread about this. Check back, as I'll be editing this post a lot with extra info (90 min video). Some of it I won't be quoting exactly, but paraphrasing, as it's fairly bothersome to find the same bits again:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d3BqQHmvOGc

Crimean Karaite communal representatives are featured on this show. They mention a couple times how they're all half "Karaim", but there might be pure ones amongst, just shy of announcing it. For example, the man with the long beard and long white hair next to the host, surnamed Lebedev, has an ethnic Russian father. Some notable instances:

-The host appears to have Jewish origins, judging by his line of questioning,demeanor during certain topics, and knowledge (atypical for a Russian to instantly recognize a Ketuba and to know that mixing meat and dairy isn't Kosher). Also when one of the Karaim says "We have an expression: '2 Karaim, 3 opinions', the host replies: 'believe me, you're not the only ones/ethnos with that phrase' ". Despite this not being TA, his phenotype also suggests it, but I only bring this up in conjunction with the previous info and because it's relevant to how we see him react to their claims.

-At one point, the host becomes very curious to know about their origins relative to Jews and asks particularly about their DNA. This is where we see a hilarious disagreement emerge. One of them begins to allude to a recent DNA study, almost surely Kevin Brook's. Will be neat if he chimes in on this. And recalls its conclusion being that over 50% of the paternal lineages are Middle Eastern, then the sentence turns abrupt and he seems to say that 10% are Turkic, all the while Lebedev is furiously shaking his head. Lebedev appears to be the main one pushing the theory that they're a Turkic nation, while the rest of the panel seems to either disagree with him fully or partially, as judged by their demeanor and jokes, as opposed to clear comments to the contrary. The speaker then mentions the following, either to please Lebedev or he may genuinely think so: Abraham came from Mesopotamia, which was a melting pot, and that ancient followers of the Torah came out of this melting pot and hence they're of a broadly "Sumerian" ethnos, as opposed to being pigeon holed as "Jewish". Of course, this kind of reasoning would make all modern day Jews non-Jewish and wouldn't only apply to Crimean Karaites. He then talks about the Assyrian/Babylonian exiles and their migrations within West Asia to Central Asia, none of which Lebedev likes, as none of this is native to Crimea. The host isn't fooled by this "broadly Sumerian" nonsense, and requalifies this as a theory of Jewish origin for them, to which, the initial speaker, seemingly panicked, quickly mentions that their maternal lineages might be largely Turkic. Lebedev then has his turn to speak and declares them a fully Turkic nation.

-When the Khazars are brought up, Lebedev and/or other speakers (I have to go back and rewatch it), said that the Jewish Khazars were Karaim. They further went on to mention much of the Crimean Karaite role within the region was based on business and related it to how they interacted with other Khazars, but I forget the details (will mention later).

-A claim was made, that went unchallenged by the panel, and seemingly supported by at least some, that Peter The Great's mother was a Crimean Karaite. Peter's phenotype was brought up as testament to this. This is a startling claim given what Peter said about the Jews, although it can be argued that his identity played a role in that too. This was claimed to be a core reason of why Karaim had allegedly great relations with the Russian Royals. Details were added about Crimean Karaites acting as royal guards, but I snoozed a bit here (will add details later).

-The host asked about Krymchaks. Lebedev, as expected, claimed that Krymchaks simply descend from Crimean Karaites who eventually adopted the Talmud and stresses that they're a pure Turkic nation. He mentions relevant details to this, but I forget them. Tune in later when I add them in.

-The host asks about the typical Karaim phenotype, and of course, they end up inevitably describing a Jew.

I will add/correct details later, but invite other Russian-speakers to contribute to that.

An edit: during the genetics conversation, the man giving the initial narrative says that >50% of their genome was found to be Middle Eastern. However, he cautions not call it "Semitic" or too narrow it to being Jewish, as he says it was part of the large melting pot of Sumeria during the Assyrian Exile. Then switches his line and says the ">50%" only concerns male lineages and that >50% of female lineages might be Turkic. He also brings up Firkovich's initial migration theory and cites him for it.

They often talk about their place of worship. They refer to it as a "kinase" - probably from beit knesset, but Lebedev insists on calling it a church, while the rest describe it purely in Jewish terms. The main, interesting difference I heard from them is that there is an additional separation between old and young men on the first floor.

Regarding Krymchacks, Lebedev says they would be offended to be called "Crimean Jews". Lebedev claims that they descend from 200 Crimean Karaite families from Feodosia who adopted the Talmud somewhere in or during the span of 10th-12th century and still consider themselves a Turkic nation deriving from the Khazars. Clearly, Lebedev is full of shit, but he ends up speaking up more than others, as is often the case.

Erik
07-24-2019, 03:13 PM
Hi
Hmm Gurdji means Georgian, as in Kartvelian. In the 19th Century the Georgian-origin Jewish community of Jerusalem were called “ Gurdjim”
As to Bakshi, Ralph Bakshi directed the first full length X-Rated cartoon in Hollywood, in 1972, called Fritz the Cat”, yes I saw it and yes Bakshi is of Krymchak descent.

We also have some Israeli YouTuber named "Waxman-Bakshi". Apparently she is popular among teenagers.

You can check her out here: https://youtube.com/channel/UC92n2SzCNiw9-JmT74T7gqw

artemv
07-24-2019, 04:12 PM
And similar blessings of health and life in Hebrew, thanking G-d, and the Krymchak man on the right in the second video is an emissary of Chabad-Lubavitch, a world wide Jewish outreach. Note the Krymchaks are fully Rabbinic(i.e. not Karaite) and the Tefillin worn by the man on the left are normative among all Orthodox Jews.


How do you know that he is emissary of Chabad-Lubavitch? Nor "religious friend", not Izmerli "man on the left" himself does not say anything about Chabad.

Targum
07-24-2019, 04:52 PM
He’s wearing the uniform and the way his beard comes out narrows it down and distinguishes him from Yeshiva Orthodox (Litvish) on one hand,?and from non-Chabad Hhassidim on the other. It’s not an issue he’s a Chabadsker wearing the uniform.

StillWater
07-24-2019, 05:45 PM
He’s wearing the uniform and the way his beard comes out narrows it down and distinguishes him from Yeshiva Orthodox (Litvish) on one hand,?and from non-Chabad Hhassidim on the other. It’s not an issue he’s a Chabadsker wearing the uniform.

As soon as I saw him, I thought of such great classics as:

"Excuse me, are you Jewish by any chance?"
"Did you put on tefillin today?"
"We want Moshiach now!"
"Have some cake! "
"The Rebbe..."
"Except Rambam says..."
"Mendel!" x1000

StillWater
07-24-2019, 07:16 PM
Interesting story here: http://ha-historion.blogspot.com/2017/04/ "The strange and (ultimately) tragic case of a Rabbanite-Karaite couple in Holocaust-era Latvia."

I really recommend that guy's blogs. They're full of interesting historical minutia, much of it surprising.

StillWater
07-24-2019, 07:29 PM
Now, this one is really cool: "Karaites, Samaritans and praying with a ‘minyan’. An Attempt at a Samaritan-Karaite Alliance in the 19th Century"

https://toldotyisrael.wordpress.com/2012/01/24/karaites-samaritans-and-praying-with-a-minyan-an-attempt-at-a-samaritan-karaite-alliance-in-the-19th-century/

excerpts:


In the Spring of 1864, the noted Karaite figure, Abraham Firkovich, found himself in the Samaritan community of Mt. Gerizim in the city of Nablus, known in Hebrew as Shchem. Firkovich,was on a mission to buy as many hand-written manuscripts as he could get his hands on.


This strange episode and a reproduction of the contract signed between the 2 parties can be found in in an article published in the Journal Studia Orientalia (1997, vol. 82, pp. 85-98), entitled SAMARITAN AND KARAIM COMMITMENTS TO MINYAN, ABRAHAM FIRKOVICH AND THE POOR OF TRAKAI by Tapai harvianinen, Haseeb Shehadeh, and Harry Halen 3.


English Translation of the contract:

By the Mt. Sinai covenant and the decrees of Mount Horeb, we, the Israelites, the inhabitants of the town of Nablus in the gathering of the leaders of the community are making a covenant and appending our signets to this document of regulation in order to fulfill those conditions which are clarified in the Arabic language. It is the eve of the blessed Tuesday, the 28th day of the 12th month of the year 1280 n (4-5 june 1864 a.d.) in the presence of his excellency, the Chief Rabbi (!) of our respected brethren, rabbi אלחכם Abraham Firkovich, in the town of Nablus while meeting his excellency and in the footsteps of negotiation and listening to his magnificent spiritual counsel all we who append our names and signets below have agreed to come the House of God (Synagogue) itended for prayers in order to perform the ritual prayer twice a day in the evening and in the morning in accordance with our duty and the practice of our fathers of long standing. And we will not be restrained from doing so without a clear excuse .And for this agreement of ours we have composed this as notification of what we have agreed upon in the presence of his excellency referred to on the date mentioned above. We ask God to give us success (in achieving) what he chooses and wishes and may God’s peace rest upon Moses b Amram.

It is well and if one or 2 persons of the community come (to the Synagogue) then it will not be necessary for the priest to pray unless an assembly of ten persons at least (is present). With less than ten he (the priest), ought not to perform public prayers, and upon this agreement was reached.

At least Firkovich acknowledges his Israelite roots in this and we know therefore, the Samaritans acknowledged him as an Israelite as well.

StillWater
07-25-2019, 04:36 AM
Some more names from the Krymchack video in the OP:

Ilya Venyaminovich Achkinaze
Parents: Venyamin Moiseyevich Achkinaze
Yulia Mikhailovna Achkinaze

Lazar Lvovich Mangupli
Parents:Lev (can't make out patrynomic) Mangupli
Sarah Lazarevna Mangupli

Iosif Aronovich Lumbrozo
Parents:Aron Iosivich Lumbrozo
Sarah Moiseyevna Lumbrozo

Alexandra Illorionovna Gurdji
Parents: (can't make out first and patrynomic) Levi
Gurdji-Elyash? (can't make up mother's surname after hyphen)

Someone's friends:

Niki
Chulak
Valit
Angelo

Nina Yurevna Karazubazarskaya/sky (might be a joke, and her real surname is still Bakshi)
Parents: Yuri Semenovich Bakshi
Katarina Iosivna Gurdji
step-dad: Yakov Lazarevich Gotta(likely a russified pronouncation of Guetta)

As before, the father's surname will often differ from the daughter's , as she's now married. Again, surnames are bolded.

This reminds me of Zamir Gotta, who starred on Anthony Bourdain's show and in one episode revealed that he's from Crimea and that his dad was Jewish. In fact, watching the video again, he might be Jewish on both sides.

artemv
08-14-2019, 02:51 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=61-L8qk_mCQ
On my view a very intersting video, about linguistic analysis of some text from Firkovich collection (in Russian).

The text itself is translation of Torah (likely Rabbanic, not Karaite) to old Kipchak language (that was spoken in Golden Horde) using Aramean letters.
Later he shows that some hand-written texts of Russian Christian Bible contain several borrowings from that Kypchak language text.

Golden Horde Jews included both Karaite and Rabbanite communities that likely came from Babel.
Rabbanic Golden Horde Jews were later incorporated in much more numerous Polish-Lithuana Ashkenazy Community.
Members of Karaite community of Golden Horde Jews settled in Crimea and formed Karaite communities in Poland-Lithuana.

StillWater
08-14-2019, 03:28 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=61-L8qk_mCQ
On my view a very intersting video, about linguistic analysis of some text from Firkovich collection (in Russian).

The text itself is translation of Torah (likely Rabbanic, not Karaite) to old Kipchak language (that was spoken in Golden Horde) using Aramean letters.
Later he shows that some hand-written texts of Russian Christian Bible contain several borrowings from that Kypchak language text.

Golden Horde Jews included both Karaite and Rabbanite communities that likely came from Babel.
Rabbanic Golden Horde Jews were later incorporated in much more numerous Polish-Lithuana Ashkenazy Community.
Members of Karaite community of Golden Horde Jews settled in Crimea and formed Karaite communities in Poland-Lithuana.

Great find. Will have to watch it carefully - am skeptical of the standards in Russian academia. However, this potentially has a lot of interesting and relevant facts.

artemv
08-14-2019, 04:03 AM
Great find. Will have to watch it carefully - am skeptical of the standards in Russian academia. However, this potentially has a lot of interesting and relevant facts.

He several times thanked for help his collegues from Israel (if I remember it well it was Hebrew U), if I understand it well he himself is a specialist in Kipchak languages.
P.S. Please write here about your impression.