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Greekscholar
07-22-2019, 05:27 PM
Hi, I was hoping someone here could help me understand results from FTDNA. My cousin did a Y-67 test with FTDNA to try and determine the origins of his male line, or any other interesting information it might tell us about the family. The results are in, and I am completely confused. Here is what the site says are the results:

Your Predicted Haplogroup is I-P37

Haplogroup I dates to 23,000 years ago, or older. The I-P215 lineage is about 15,000 years old and began in southern Europe. Today it is found primarily in Sardinia and the Balkans. Haplogroup I represents one of the first peoples in Europe.

It seems the last bit of information (sorry, again, I don't have the vocabulary to discuss this well) is L460, test for P37......then it lists another product we should buy to learn more. The only match that came up at Y-67 is an Austrian (the male line that was tested can traced to the Greek island of Fourni with our papertrail.) Here is what the match says.

Comparison Chart
Generations Percentage
4 3.92%
8 32.52%
12 68.13%
16 88.78%
20 96.78%
24 99.2%

I'm really at a loss. I can't seem to find any specific information or maps, it seems these categories change names, or go by different names, or maybe nobody really knows anything? I raised money at the family reunion to pay for this test and am going to give a brief presentation of what we found out. Any help in figuring out what these results mean would be great. Thanks!

spruithean
07-22-2019, 05:35 PM
https://www.yfull.com/tree/I-P37/

From what I can see I-P37 is the same as I-P37.2 and downstream of I-L460. I-P37 is quite old (it formed, meaning it split from its parent group 20,800 ybp, years before present) and it has a TMRCA that is also quite old (common ancestor of all modern I-P37 people) estimated to have lived 18,200 ybp.

https://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_I2_Y-DNA.shtml#I2a1

You could save up money for a more in-depth SNP testing route (Big Y700) to determine where exactly you fit under I-P37 and what your terminal SNP is (final mutation if you will).

Greekscholar
07-22-2019, 08:31 PM
https://www.yfull.com/tree/I-P37/

From what I can see I-P37 is the same as I-P37.2 and downstream of I-L460. I-P37 is quite old (it formed, meaning it split from its parent group 20,800 ybp, years before present) and it has a TMRCA that is also quite old (common ancestor of all modern I-P37 people) estimated to have lived 18,200 ybp.

https://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_I2_Y-DNA.shtml#I2a1

You could save up money for a more in-depth SNP testing route (Big Y700) to determine where exactly you fit under I-P37 and what your terminal SNP is (final mutation if you will).

Thank you so much. I guess this is bad news then right? The "big reveal" is that the male line of that cousin split from some other male line 18,000 years ago? I am confused because I have talked to other people who did a Y-67 level test and had it place the haploid group in a location as recently as 900AD in one case, and 1200AD in another. I guess we are not that lucky?

I really doubt I could raise the money for a Y-700 test, but if I was able to, would it tell us about where the male line was more recently in time, or in a more specific geographic location? Or would it just spit back letter/number combinations on the Y-tree?

spruithean
07-22-2019, 08:41 PM
No, the haplogroup itself is given the age estimates in the link I provided. A genealogically relevant match will be more recent. A 67 match within a certain range, in theory, denotes a common ancestor.

What is the genetic distance you have with your Austrian match?

Big Y would provide a more in depth haplogroup call and allow for more reliability when determining legitimate matches.

You could however join a relevant Y-DNA project at FTDNA and perhaps a project admin there could help guide you to certain SNP packs to test?

Greekscholar
07-22-2019, 09:11 PM
No, the haplogroup itself is given the age estimates in the link I provided. A genealogically relevant match will be more recent. A 67 match within a certain range, in theory, denotes a common ancestor.

What is the genetic distance you have with your Austrian match?

Big Y would provide a more in depth haplogroup call and allow for more reliability when determining legitimate matches.

You could however join a relevant Y-DNA project at FTDNA and perhaps a project admin there could help guide you to certain SNP packs to test?

Since each marker has a different mutation rate, identical Genetic Distances will not necessarily yield the same probabilities. In other words, even though XXXXXX has a Genetic Distance‡ of 7 from XXXXXX, someone else with the same Genetic Distance may have different probabilities, because the distance of 7 was prompted by mutations in different markers, with different mutation rates.

I will have to work with the information provided by the existing test for now. I can't justify spending more money on this type of test until I can make some sense of the results. I'm just struggling to understand why other people buy the same test and find ancestral regions within the last 1,000 years, while our family results tell us nothing beyond 18,000 years ago. Am I misunderstanding what the results are? Is it because it is a less common haploid group? The other people I mentioned were all R1b1 and had their haploid group specifically placed in the British Isles.

I have to talk to my cousin about joining a project. I literally heard nothing back from him when I sent him the results. He was a reluctant tester to begin with, and I wasn't able to create any narrative around the results to have them make any sense to him (or me.) Thanks again.

spruithean
07-22-2019, 09:23 PM
What do you mean by ancestral regions? Are you referring to autosomal DNA tests where they give you ethnicity estimations?

Greekscholar
07-22-2019, 09:35 PM
I know a person that tested and received R-M269.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_R-M269

There is so much information on this line. He found very specific Y-matches in northern Ireland, including his surname (which I didn't think we would find, but I at least hoped to match to some location.) So, I guess their results are a combination of having a more "famous" haploid and it being common enough that many who have it have tested. Am I wrong to say they got much more for their money? Or again, am I just not interpreting the results correctly?

What I was hoping to find was some idea of where the male line lived at some point in recent time. I am strongly of the opinion that the surname was changed, and hoped that a Y-test would help trace back the male line and give us some guesses on possible original surnames, or cluster around one island or geographic area, and I don't think I found that information.

Greekscholar
07-22-2019, 09:35 PM
double post

spruithean
07-22-2019, 09:49 PM
R-M269 is sort of the most in-depth call FTDNA can provide without SNP testing, however R-M269 is quite basal on the R tree and the person you know who had this result is certainly far more than R-M269 (probably R-L21 if he has British Isles roots). Because of such a basal call as R-M269 it can be uncertain as to which STR matches are legitimate or are because of convergence.

Greekscholar
07-23-2019, 12:34 AM
R-M269 is sort of the most in-depth call FTDNA can provide without SNP testing, however R-M269 is quite basal on the R tree and the person you know who had this result is certainly far more than R-M269 (probably R-L21 if he has British Isles roots). Because of such a basal call as R-M269 it can be uncertain as to which STR matches are legitimate or are because of convergence.

Hmm....so is it safe to say our R-M269 friend did "get lucky" in that he has a common last name and is Irish-American meaning there are more samples in the database to match him too?

Also, what does the genetic distance of 7 mean? Is that a close match? My cousin had matches with people who tested with fewer markers, I should check the distance on those matches too right? If I am following, some of them could be closer relatives, but because of the test they purchased, wouldn't appear on the same screen.

Thanks so much. This is starting to make some sense.

spruithean
07-23-2019, 12:47 AM
Hmm....so is it safe to say our R-M269 friend did "get lucky" in that he has a common last name and is Irish-American meaning there are more samples in the database to match him too?

Also, what does the genetic distance of 7 mean? Is that a close match? My cousin had matches with people who tested with fewer markers, I should check the distance on those matches too right? If I am following, some of them could be closer relatives, but because of the test they purchased, wouldn't appear on the same screen.

Thanks so much. This is starting to make some sense.

Haplogroup R1b, is the most common in Western Europe, and given testing demographics (sampling bias towards testers of British Isles descent) and your friend's ancestry it is no surprise that he will have more matches at this time.

A genetic distance of 7 is still within the window of probable "relatedness": https://www.familytreedna.com/learn/y-dna-testing/y-str/two-men-share-surname-genetic-distance-67-y-chromosome-str-markers-interpreted/, however the common ancestor may or may not be within a genealogical time frame.

Be aware that a lack of matches may be due to a lack of people from your lineage having tested, and if your haplotype (the STR pattern you see on your FTDNA Y-DNA results page) or specific subclade of your haplogroup is rare that can also lower the amount of potential matches. It took me a few years to acquire matches that were relevant.

I-P37 if my memory serves, since it is under I-L460, is quite common in the Balkans and I would imagine through some SNP tests later on you could determine which branch your lineage sits on.

Greekscholar
07-23-2019, 03:45 PM
Haplogroup R1b, is the most common in Western Europe, and given testing demographics (sampling bias towards testers of British Isles descent) and your friend's ancestry it is no surprise that he will have more matches at this time.

A genetic distance of 7 is still within the window of probable "relatedness": https://www.familytreedna.com/learn/y-dna-testing/y-str/two-men-share-surname-genetic-distance-67-y-chromosome-str-markers-interpreted/, however the common ancestor may or may not be within a genealogical time frame.

Be aware that a lack of matches may be due to a lack of people from your lineage having tested, and if your haplotype (the STR pattern you see on your FTDNA Y-DNA results page) or specific subclade of your haplogroup is rare that can also lower the amount of potential matches. It took me a few years to acquire matches that were relevant.

I-P37 if my memory serves, since it is under I-L460, is quite common in the Balkans and I would imagine through some SNP tests later on you could determine which branch your lineage sits on.

So in terms of narrative, I could say the following with a reasonable degree of confidence:

- The I-P37 haploid group has been in Southern Europe for 18,000 years, it is among the oldest male lines to be found there.
- I-P37 is found in highest concentrations today in the Balkans, but occurs in roughly 5-10% of Greek males too. No one haploid group is dominate in Greece.
- The closest match is an Austrian, but we do not know if we share a male ancestor with this person within a "genealogical timeframe," so this match could be 500+ years or more in the past.
- None of this means the family is not Greek, as we likely have closer matches in Greece that have not been tested in this way.

The last part is important. I will be speaking to lots of people who know very little about DNA, and whose ears will only pay attention when I get to the "closest match is Austrian" part.

George
07-23-2019, 04:47 PM
Re #12- "- I-P37 is found in highest concentrations today in the Balkans" I suspect that this is the Slavic I2a-Din. And the mention of Sardinia points to M26 which is a totally distinct ancient branch. There are also other branches, all also very ancient in origin, but not very numerous.
I wonder why FTDNA couldn't determine any M26 or L621 for you. They could do this easily in the old test I took about 5 years ago. So maybe you belong to one of the other "ancient European" lines (you can find a lot of them on Yfull) esp. since you have no matches among the numerous I-P37's.

Greekscholar
07-23-2019, 05:35 PM
Ok, digging deeper here. Here is a match with shorter genetic distance.......but he only tested at Y-37. He is Greek too. Is the genetic distance less valid with less markers. Is there anyway to tell if he is closer to my cousin's Y line than the Austrian fellow with the genetic distance of 7?

In comparing Y-DNA 25 marker results, the probability that XXXXXXXXXXX and XXXXXXXXX shared a common ancestor within the last...
Comparison Chart
Generations Percentage
4 27.79%
8 58.58%
12 78.55%
16 89.52%
20 95.07%
24 97.74%

Refine your results with paper trail input

If traditional genealogical records indicate that a common ancestor between you and your match could not have lived in a certain number of past generations, your TiP results can be refined. Note, if you are not sure of this information, you should not change the value of "1" below.
Note: "0" or negative values are not accepted in the generations field.

XXXXX and XXXXX did not share a common ancestor in the last generation(s).
Markers:
Display Since each marker has a different mutation rate, identical Genetic Distances will not necessarily yield the same probabilities. In other words, even though XXXXXX has a Genetic Distance‡ of 2 from XXXXXX, someone else with the same Genetic Distance may have different probabilities, because the distance of 2 was prompted by mutations in different markers, with different mutation rates.

Bosniensis
07-23-2019, 05:41 PM
I-P37 means you are a SLAV

Slavic peoples are I-P37

Especially those in Greece, they are mostly Serbs, Bulgarians etc..

Greekscholar
07-23-2019, 05:52 PM
I-P37 means you are a SLAV

Slavic peoples are I-P37

Especially those in Greece, they are mostly Serbs, Bulgarians etc..

So, is I-P37 connected to Slavic migrations into the Balkan region of Europe? I am not sure what you mean by "they are mostly Serbs, Bulgarians, etc." Do you mean those Y-lines are most prevalent in those countries? More common in parts of Greece that have Slavic admixture from that migration event?

Thanks for the reply.

Bosniensis
07-23-2019, 06:01 PM
So, is I-P37 connected to Slavic migrations into the Balkan region of Europe? I am not sure what you mean by "they are mostly Serbs, Bulgarians, etc." Do you mean those Y-lines are most prevalent in those countries? More common in parts of Greece that have Slavic admixture from that migration event?

Thanks for the reply.

Nobody knows for sure.

Since both Ukrainians and Belorussians and even parts of Russia have unusually strong I2 CTS10228 and P37 in general it is believed it hails from Eastern Celts who were assimilated by Slavs very long ago, who then as "Slavs" conquered Balkans in 5th century.

Basternae and Gallo-Scythian theory is very plausible.

Whoever they were, they are Proto-European, oldest people in Europe who predate any R1a or R1b people in Europe.

oz
07-24-2019, 02:42 AM
I-P37 means you are a SLAV

Slavic peoples are I-P37

Especially those in Greece, they are mostly Serbs, Bulgarians etc..

Why are you telling him he's Slavic, Serbian and Bulgarian when the guy is Greek? Greeks are Greeks. And Slavic is basically just a language type it's not a nation or ethnicity or some uniform race. I2 isn't exclusive to Slavic speaking countries and neither is any haplogroup. It's more proper to label it Balkanic and East European instead of Slavic.

I kako si ti Bosnjak, Vlah? Jesil iz mjesanog braka? Znas li da kod nas Vlah znaci Krscanin?

Greekscholar
07-24-2019, 02:25 PM
Why are you telling him he's Slavic, Serbian and Bulgarian when the guy is Greek? Greeks are Greeks. And Slavic is basically just a language type it's not a nation or ethnicity or some uniform race. I2 isn't exclusive to Slavic speaking countries and neither is any haplogroup. It's more proper to label it Balkanic and East European instead of Slavic.

I kako si ti Bosnjak, Vlah? Jesil iz mjesanog braka? Znas li da kod nas Vlah znaci Krscanin?

No worries, it isn't my Y anyway :) ...........and I would never say to my family "this is a Slavic" Y. It would only confuse them. I will say "this Y group is most common in the Balkans, and is in about 5-10% of the Greek male population."

lgmayka
07-24-2019, 08:22 PM
My cousin did a Y-67 test with FTDNA to try and determine the origins of his male line, or any other interesting information it might tell us about the family. The results are in, and I am completely confused. Here is what the site says are the results:

[I]Your Predicted Haplogroup is I-P37

The only match that came up at Y-67 is an Austrian (the male line that was tested can traced to the Greek island of Fourni with our papertrail.)
FTDNA's prediction of I-P37 is only a very "safe" default classification. I suggest you join the I2a Haplogroup Project (https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/i-2a-hap-group/about), then ask the administrator to classify your Y-DNA67 as precisely as he can. In the meantime, compare your 67-marker pattern against those published for the project (https://www.familytreedna.com/public/I2aHapGroup?iframe=yresults). (This web page actually has 6 different pages, unless you change the Page Size to 3000.) Specifically search for results from Greece. You could also see whether the Austrian match is published for that project. If so, you probably belong to the same category as he.

I strongly suspect you belong more specifically to I-S20602, which YFull calls I-Y3120 (https://yfull.com/tree/I-Y3120/). Notice that the I-Y18331 clade (https://yfull.com/tree/I-Y18331/) has as many Greeks as all others put together (from YFull's population of clients).

Greekscholar
07-24-2019, 09:02 PM
FTDNA's prediction of I-P37 is only a very "safe" default classification. I suggest you join the I2a Haplogroup Project (https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/i-2a-hap-group/about), then ask the administrator to classify your Y-DNA67 as precisely as he can. In the meantime, compare your 67-marker pattern against those published for the project (https://www.familytreedna.com/public/I2aHapGroup?iframe=yresults). (This web page actually has 6 different pages, unless you change the Page Size to 3000.) Specifically search for results from Greece. You could also see whether the Austrian match is published for that project. If so, you probably belong to the same category as he.

I strongly suspect you belong more specifically to I-S20602, which YFull calls I-Y3120 (https://yfull.com/tree/I-Y3120/). Notice that the I-Y18331 clade (https://yfull.com/tree/I-Y18331/) has as many Greeks as all others put together (from YFull's population of clients).

Yes, this is what we must do. I saw the closest match's surname listed twice, and in one group there were Greek matches. Wish me luck in convincing my cousin to join the project. I have access to the account, so I can do the leg work, I just need his permission. Thank you so much.

td120
07-24-2019, 09:14 PM
Can you run his STR markers in this predictor:
http://www.nevgen.org/
Copy/paste and hit "calculate"...

Greekscholar
07-24-2019, 09:45 PM
Can you run his STR markers in this predictor:
http://www.nevgen.org/
Copy/paste and hit "calculate"...

I2a1b3 Slavic-Carpathian &Disles L621 - 100%

Thank you so much. This classification brings up useful information. Does anyone know more about this specific group? I am researching it on the internet, but would love to hear more.

Now, here is my next question. Why did this calculator on the internet give me more information than the $250 test we paid to purchase? I am a little miffed that FTDNA's answer to nearly every question was "pay to buy this kit to learn more." I am wrong to say they were holding this information back?

At any rate, it sure does look like it came into the Balkans with the Slavic migrations, doesn't it? Or do we still need to pay more to figure that out ;)

td120
07-24-2019, 09:58 PM
Now click on the settings icon in the upper left corner (the mixer sliders) and select "Predictor model"-->Subclades of I (67+ markers). See if anything changes. It may report a defining snp.Have in mind that although the predictor is very reliable they use an older version of the ISOGG tree and "I2a1b3" has in 2019 another designation.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1TH2aUkqHUV8coChJOCxGeXMg6QdyRTPthWOpW8IyCJE/edit#gid=198726360

Well people behind such projects do put tremendous efforts (my respect and gratitude !) and rely on our cooperation.So join every relevant project on FTDNA. It sucks when somebody spends several hundreds on a test,receives the results and just "locks 'em away".Zero contribution.

I don't like FTDNA ways at all...but it is what it is.

spruithean
07-25-2019, 03:09 AM
I2a1b3 Slavic-Carpathian &Disles L621 - 100%

Thank you so much. This classification brings up useful information. Does anyone know more about this specific group? I am researching it on the internet, but would love to hear more.

Now, here is my next question. Why did this calculator on the internet give me more information than the $250 test we paid to purchase? I am a little miffed that FTDNA's answer to nearly every question was "pay to buy this kit to learn more." I am wrong to say they were holding this information back?

At any rate, it sure does look like it came into the Balkans with the Slavic migrations, doesn't it? Or do we still need to pay more to figure that out ;)

Nevgen is fairly accurate, at least in my experience. Before I did Big Y it estimated my haplogroup to fall under CTS6772. While that isn't entirely correct (I'm quite downstream of that mutation) it is on the right track. You could use nevgen combined with information from people knowledgable of the I2a haplogroup to help guide you in any future tests you may wish to take. I know YSEQ is fairly decent with more affordable options (their haplogroup panels are anywhere from $88-99).

artemv
07-25-2019, 10:14 AM
I2a1b3 Slavic-Carpathian &Disles L621 - 100%

Thank you so much. This classification brings up useful information. Does anyone know more about this specific group? I am researching it on the internet, but would love to hear more.

Now, here is my next question. Why did this calculator on the internet give me more information than the $250 test we paid to purchase? I am a little miffed that FTDNA's answer to nearly every question was "pay to buy this kit to learn more." I am wrong to say they were holding this information back?

At any rate, it sure does look like it came into the Balkans with the Slavic migrations, doesn't it? Or do we still need to pay more to figure that out ;)

ph2ter (user on this forum) made this wonderfull tree.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/kj9b0z8raiwf3oj/P37_V4.7a.png?dl=0

You can see there is one major Greek branch - Y18331 (there are two small Greek branches though).
Yes, it likely came to the Balkans with the Slavic migrations. Slavs also invaded continental Greece in the 6th century.
You can search the AG forums - there was pretty much discussion that even now it is possible to see genetic difference between Continental Greece, more "Northern European"-like because of Slavic admixture and Greek from the Isles, who are more like "pre-Slavic" Greeks.
I2a-L621 is more common in continental Greece, and less common on the Isles.

FTDNA just not that good in analysing the Y-DNA. After bigY-700 many people pay to yfull, because they want detailed test results be analyzed well. There are not so many other options, if you do not want to make BigY. You can analyse 100% of your genome at Dante-labs, but Dante-labs are focused on medical issues, and they will not help you to search for relatives. 100% genome analyse costs a little bit more that BigY. After you get a file from Dante-labs you will probably want to pay to yfull for more detailed analyse.
The only reasonable cheap option is Yseq, costs 88$ + delivery.
https://www.yseq.net/product_info.php?cPath=27&products_id=11788&osCsid=5229ddbf3b1330e1162ccb4adb0ff3a8
But Yseq only checks you for known SNPs. After some time additional SNPs will become known, so you will probably want later to make additional test, if those new SNPs will be located on your branch.

Greekscholar
07-25-2019, 03:34 PM
Now click on the settings icon in the upper left corner (the mixer sliders) and select "Predictor model"-->Subclades of I (67+ markers). See if anything changes. It may report a defining snp.Have in mind that although the predictor is very reliable they use an older version of the ISOGG tree and "I2a1b3" has in 2019 another designation.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1TH2aUkqHUV8coChJOCxGeXMg6QdyRTPthWOpW8IyCJE/edit#gid=198726360

Well people behind such projects do put tremendous efforts (my respect and gratitude !) and rely on our cooperation.So join every relevant project on FTDNA. It sucks when somebody spends several hundreds on a test,receives the results and just "locks 'em away".Zero contribution.

I don't like FTDNA ways at all...but it is what it is.

10.6% chance of I2a1b3a Slavic-Carpathian>Y4460> Y3118 which appears to be Eastern Slavic + Baltic on that nice tree. 82.3% chance of unsupported subclade.

Yes, I really hope my cousin will agree to join the project. His sister has already replied to me and is interested, but we need his permission and he was a reluctant tester to begin with.

Agamemnon
07-25-2019, 05:11 PM
No worries, it isn't my Y anyway :) ...........and I would never say to my family "this is a Slavic" Y. It would only confuse them. I will say "this Y group is most common in the Balkans, and is in about 5-10% of the Greek male population."

What's your Y-Chromosomal lineage though?

Greekscholar
07-25-2019, 05:52 PM
What's your Y-Chromosomal lineage though?

My oldest known male line ancestor on my dad's side was from Samos. The Y in question is the first branch of the family to move to America. This man's lineage was among "the first settlers of Fourni" according to both family stories and a monument on the island. My dad's great-aunt said "Peloponnese" My mother's family also descends from this family and says "Northern Greece." Another cousin I know from Ancestry.com says "the island of Amorgos." My best clue is that both my mother's family and my great-aunt have used the word "Mani." Sounds simple, but my great-aunt used "Maniate" to mean "crazy/wild people." My mom insists her father would still go to "Mani" in her lifetime to make charcoal, and there is a place in Macedonia that is also called "Mani." (Google is not bringing it up anymore, but I have seen it on maps.)

To add to the difficulty, the last name is very rare, it is only found on Fourni and people who emigrated from the island so far as I can track. It is also not really a name, but just a household object. I am nearly certain it was changed from something else. The cousin who shared "Amorgos" has two other stories of surname changes on the island which I believe to be true based on an old photo.

I believe the answer is Mani in the Peloponnese, but we should still have some cousin matches to there (which I haven't found) and when doing genealogy doubting my mom rarely works out. :)

So, my hope was that this test would produce some surname matches that would help, or at minimum, zoom in a specific part of Greece. No luck so far.

Bosniensis
07-25-2019, 09:56 PM
Why are you telling him he's Slavic, Serbian and Bulgarian when the guy is Greek? Greeks are Greeks. And Slavic is basically just a language type it's not a nation or ethnicity or some uniform race. I2 isn't exclusive to Slavic speaking countries and neither is any haplogroup. It's more proper to label it Balkanic and East European instead of Slavic.

I kako si ti Bosnjak, Vlah? Jesil iz mjesanog braka? Znas li da kod nas Vlah znaci Krscanin?

Nations are made of Tribes and are not a Language Groups, Some of Greeks could be Africans who just learned Greek language, that doesn't mean they are ancient Greeks. Most of them are Though.

Imam jako poklapanje sa Vlasima iz Dalmacije, inače pola moje familije su pravoslavci pola muslimani.. svi se isto prezivamo živimo desetak kilometara jedni od drugih, nakon 90'ih smo se izjasnili kao Bošnjaci zbog vjere.

Prema mišljenju srpskog dnk projekta, postoji vjerovatnoća da pripadamo Vlasima Predojevićima ili nekim drugim.

Osim toga meni na gedmatch K15 na testiranju Rumunija izlazi pod 1.

1 Romanian 5.45
2 Serbian 6.37
3 Bulgarian 6.44
4 Moldavian 6.62
5 Croatian 8.72

Što je dobra naznaka da smo Vlasi eto..

Dibran
07-26-2019, 12:14 AM
I2a1b3 Slavic-Carpathian &Disles L621 - 100%

Thank you so much. This classification brings up useful information. Does anyone know more about this specific group? I am researching it on the internet, but would love to hear more.

Now, here is my next question. Why did this calculator on the internet give me more information than the $250 test we paid to purchase? I am a little miffed that FTDNA's answer to nearly every question was "pay to buy this kit to learn more." I am wrong to say they were holding this information back?

At any rate, it sure does look like it came into the Balkans with the Slavic migrations, doesn't it? Or do we still need to pay more to figure that out ;)

Regardless whether it Came with Slavs or not I still recommend taking a deeper test. Preferably a BigY. For instance my line likely came with Proto Slavic tribes as well however my prediction was wrong. I formed a founder effect down L1029 and for some reason my initial prediction was YP515.

My founder effect turned out to be an Albanian lineage that formed from L1029. Discovered doing a BigY with FGC. The current tmrca between me and the Albanians in our cluster is about 1200 years. Suggesting our Albanian speaking ancestor lived at this time. His likely ancestor was a Proto-Slavic tribesman but given no pre migration ancients no one can say for sure.

All can be said currently is some one from central or east Europe arrived in Albania sometime between 2000-1500 years ago and whose descendants later incubated and participated in Albanian ethnogenesis.

This is precisely why I recommend a BigY. Despite the predicted branch from nevgen being PH908/I2a1b3 it has a tmrca of 1850ypb.

For all you know it forms a new Greek branch that split from PH908.

Assuming the matches are from Bulgarians and Serbs in the Middle Ages, this theoretical Greek cluster should be between 1100-700years old.

If it’s older it could be when the Slavic tribes first arrived. So something similar to my clusters age of 1200 years. If the matches have Bulgarian and Serbian matches within the last few hundred years then this is when their common ancestor likely Slavic would have lived.

Also using Michals estimates the ages may be 10-20 percent older than Yfull estimates.

Dibran
07-26-2019, 12:33 AM
10.6% chance of I2a1b3a Slavic-Carpathian>Y4460> Y3118 which appears to be Eastern Slavic + Baltic on that nice tree. 82.3% chance of unsupported subclade.

Yes, I really hope my cousin will agree to join the project. His sister has already replied to me and is interested, but we need his permission and he was a reluctant tester to begin with.

Was the same for me. Unsupported subclade. Because it wasn’t yet discovered! Maybe you form a Greek clade under one of those clusters. Possibly under PH908.

Greekscholar
07-26-2019, 02:25 PM
Regardless whether it Came with Slavs or not I still recommend taking a deeper test. Preferably a BigY. For instance my line likely came with Proto Slavic tribes as well however my prediction was wrong. I formed a founder effect down L1029 and for some reason my initial prediction was YP515.

My founder effect turned out to be an Albanian lineage that formed from L1029. Discovered doing a BigY with FGC. The current tmrca between me and the Albanians in our cluster is about 1200 years. Suggesting our Albanian speaking ancestor lived at this time. His likely ancestor was a Proto-Slavic tribesman but given no pre migration ancients no one can say for sure.

All can be said currently is some one from central or east Europe arrived in Albania sometime between 2000-1500 years ago and whose descendants later incubated and participated in Albanian ethnogenesis.

This is precisely why I recommend a BigY. Despite the predicted branch from nevgen being PH908/I2a1b3 it has a tmrca of 1850ypb.

For all you know it forms a new Greek branch that split from PH908.

Assuming the matches are from Bulgarians and Serbs in the Middle Ages, this theoretical Greek cluster should be between 1100-700years old.

If it’s older it could be when the Slavic tribes first arrived. So something similar to my clusters age of 1200 years. If the matches have Bulgarian and Serbian matches within the last few hundred years then this is when their common ancestor likely Slavic would have lived.

Also using Michals estimates the ages may be 10-20 percent older than Yfull estimates.

That's very interesting, you have a great story to tell. BigY is big bucks though, so it would have to be a long term "to do list" project. I have to try and get my cousin to agree to join the project first. My immediate family really likes genetic genealogy, the extended family is really hit or miss.

Dibran
07-26-2019, 06:19 PM
That's very interesting, you have a great story to tell. BigY is big bucks though, so it would have to be a long term "to do list" project. I have to try and get my cousin to agree to join the project first. My immediate family really likes genetic genealogy, the extended family is really hit or miss.

Yea same with my family. Some are really closed minded and treat it like its falsehoods, others very interested. I personally would save up for bigy with FTDNA. You could do the payment plan for yelite 2.0 which they break up 500 into 3 monthly payments. I did this option. However, it doesn't have the FTDNA matching system, which is now doing something like yfull and is far more convenient.

Greekscholar
07-26-2019, 07:07 PM
Yea same with my family. Some are really closed minded and treat it like its falsehoods, others very interested. I personally would save up for bigy with FTDNA. You could do the payment plan for yelite 2.0 which they break up 500 into 3 monthly payments. I did this option. However, it doesn't have the FTDNA matching system, which is now doing something like yfull and is far more convenient.

Yes, I had a few cousins (not this one) who freaked out over trace regions and demanded their money back. I see that FTDNA is planning an update (their site says so when I log-in) so maybe that will help out too. It's hard to spend so much money on a test when it isn't really me being tested, I think I would either have to win the lottery, or find a way to get the family to all chip in again. Well, that's my issue to work out. The larger family would prefer I focus more on traditional genealogy, like updating all the new births and deaths anyway.

Bosniensis
07-26-2019, 07:33 PM
Yes, I had a few cousins (not this one) who freaked out over trace regions and demanded their money back. I see that FTDNA is planning an update (their site says so when I log-in) so maybe that will help out too. It's hard to spend so much money on a test when it isn't really me being tested, I think I would either have to win the lottery, or find a way to get the family to all chip in again. Well, that's my issue to work out. The larger family would prefer I focus more on traditional genealogy, like updating all the new births and deaths anyway.

FTDNA is stuck in 2014 ... they should look upon the 23andMe... those guys are upgrading both data and site on weekly basis.

Kelmendasi
07-26-2019, 07:59 PM
FTDNA is stuck in 2014 ... they should look upon the 23andMe... those guys are upgrading both data and site on weekly basis.
FTDNA is one of the most advanced haplogroup testing companies afaik, far more advanced than 23andme when it comes to that aspect. However, I'm not too sure about the autosomal

Bosniensis
07-26-2019, 09:54 PM
FTDNA is one of the most advanced haplogroup testing companies afaik, far more advanced than 23andme when it comes to that aspect. However, I'm not too sure about the autosomal

I was talking about general things like User Interface etc.. not their professional part.

Also their autosomal presentation is horrid.

Dibran
07-26-2019, 10:45 PM
I was talking about general things like User Interface etc.. not their professional part.

Also their autosomal presentation is horrid.

Thats why its a niche. 23andme is for the average DNA enthusiast whereas Full chromosome testing whilst not indicative of your total ancestry is essential in putting the puzzle together of how people migrated and common ancestors. Helps to dispel alot of myth and legends people and cultures have, or even confirm them. Something a autosomal test cannot do. It is only good for the last 300-500 years.

Greekscholar
08-05-2019, 09:19 PM
FTDNA has not impressed me so far, but my cousin just gave me permission to join him up to the FTDNA project, so maybe that will help us learn more. Thanks again everyone here for their help.

Greekscholar
08-08-2019, 03:48 PM
Project joined. Here is what they had to say.

The STR pattern in your STR result points to the I-CTS10228 haplogroup. This haplogroup is nicknamed as "Dinaric group" because its high frequency in the Dinaric Alps region. It is sometimes misleading name, it does not mean that origins of this group are from that region. This haplogroup is well represented in central and eastern Europe as well. It is very abundant and very young group. Most members have 37 etc. markers very similar to each other. According to some STR values, I-CTS10228 group is divided in two clusters: Dinaric North and Dinaric South. Please note: it is a STR based division and we use it when there are no relevant SNP tests results. You do not have any SNP result.

People with STR values DYS448=20 (and higher) and DYS 449=31 (and higher) belong to the Dinaric North group, which is usually found in Central and Eastern Europe (Poland, Baltic countries, Czech Republic, Hungary, Slovakia, Ukraine, Belarus, Russia etc.).
People with STR values DYS448=19 (and lower) and DYS 449=31 (and lower) belong to the Dinaric South group, which is usually found in SE Europe (Croatia, Bosnia and Herzegovina, Serbia, Montenegro etc.).If people ask us what the boundary between the group is, we say the Danube river, but there is much overlap; for example Dinarics in Germany often match the values for Din-S and most of Greek and Bulgarian Dinarics are in the Dinaric North cluster. You have DYS448=20 and DYS449=32 results, I put your STR results in the Dinaric North cluster section.

Two of your STR matches belong to the I-Y4460 haplogroup (XXXX and XXX). It does not mean that you belong to that haplogroup. You have DYS389I/II=14,33 values which are characteristic for some lines in the I-Z17855 haplogroup. You could also be in the I-Y18331 haplogroup. One of your matches is XXXXXX from Greece. He has only 12 STR markers tested. As said, STR values are not reliable for haplogroup prediction in the I-CTS10228, you could be in other haplogroup below I-CTS10228.

SNP markers ar those which determine haplogroups. I recommend SNP testing. You will learn which haplogroup you belong to. When you know your haplogroup you can compare your STR results with persons inside that haplogroup and disregard eventual matches from other haplogroups.

You have several SNP test options:

1) you can order the I2-P37 SNP pack test which covers mentioned I-CTS10228 SNPs and their subbranches, this test should roughly define your position inside the I-CTS10228 haplogroup.

2) more detailed I2a-M423 SNP panel test can be ordered in another laboratory YSeq.net for $88 ( http://www.yseq.net/product_info.php?cPath=27&products_id=11788 ). You will need to give a new cheek scrape DNA sample and there is also a one time $5 handling fee for the kit. If you take YSeq's I2a-M423 panel test or any other SNP test, please let us know your results because they will not be transferred to your FTDNA page and we have no way to know about them.

3) you can order the expensive Big Y-700 test. It includes all SNPs in the haplotree, sequence 10 million+ base pairs of your chromosome and find many new SNPs unique to you and your closest male relative. 700 STR markers test is included in this test. It also offers an opportunity to find your other, more downstream haplogroups in the future. This test is on sale untill August 31st, it costs $399 for those who have Y-DNA67 STR test done.

I am very happy with this response. It is more detailed and will allow me to share specific information with my cousin and the rest of the family. Learning more without having to pay for "Big Y" is a relief too. We'll see if the family is good for another $100 or so for the SNP testing.

Dibran
08-08-2019, 04:54 PM
Project joined. Here is what they had to say.

The STR pattern in your STR result points to the I-CTS10228 haplogroup. This haplogroup is nicknamed as "Dinaric group" because its high frequency in the Dinaric Alps region. It is sometimes misleading name, it does not mean that origins of this group are from that region. This haplogroup is well represented in central and eastern Europe as well. It is very abundant and very young group. Most members have 37 etc. markers very similar to each other. According to some STR values, I-CTS10228 group is divided in two clusters: Dinaric North and Dinaric South. Please note: it is a STR based division and we use it when there are no relevant SNP tests results. You do not have any SNP result.

People with STR values DYS448=20 (and higher) and DYS 449=31 (and higher) belong to the Dinaric North group, which is usually found in Central and Eastern Europe (Poland, Baltic countries, Czech Republic, Hungary, Slovakia, Ukraine, Belarus, Russia etc.).
People with STR values DYS448=19 (and lower) and DYS 449=31 (and lower) belong to the Dinaric South group, which is usually found in SE Europe (Croatia, Bosnia and Herzegovina, Serbia, Montenegro etc.).If people ask us what the boundary between the group is, we say the Danube river, but there is much overlap; for example Dinarics in Germany often match the values for Din-S and most of Greek and Bulgarian Dinarics are in the Dinaric North cluster. You have DYS448=20 and DYS449=32 results, I put your STR results in the Dinaric North cluster section.

Two of your STR matches belong to the I-Y4460 haplogroup (XXXX and XXX). It does not mean that you belong to that haplogroup. You have DYS389I/II=14,33 values which are characteristic for some lines in the I-Z17855 haplogroup. You could also be in the I-Y18331 haplogroup. One of your matches is XXXXXX from Greece. He has only 12 STR markers tested. As said, STR values are not reliable for haplogroup prediction in the I-CTS10228, you could be in other haplogroup below I-CTS10228.

SNP markers ar those which determine haplogroups. I recommend SNP testing. You will learn which haplogroup you belong to. When you know your haplogroup you can compare your STR results with persons inside that haplogroup and disregard eventual matches from other haplogroups.

You have several SNP test options:

1) you can order the I2-P37 SNP pack test which covers mentioned I-CTS10228 SNPs and their subbranches, this test should roughly define your position inside the I-CTS10228 haplogroup.

2) more detailed I2a-M423 SNP panel test can be ordered in another laboratory YSeq.net for $88 ( http://www.yseq.net/product_info.php?cPath=27&products_id=11788 ). You will need to give a new cheek scrape DNA sample and there is also a one time $5 handling fee for the kit. If you take YSeq's I2a-M423 panel test or any other SNP test, please let us know your results because they will not be transferred to your FTDNA page and we have no way to know about them.

3) you can order the expensive Big Y-700 test. It includes all SNPs in the haplotree, sequence 10 million+ base pairs of your chromosome and find many new SNPs unique to you and your closest male relative. 700 STR markers test is included in this test. It also offers an opportunity to find your other, more downstream haplogroups in the future. This test is on sale untill August 31st, it costs $399 for those who have Y-DNA67 STR test done.

I am very happy with this response. It is more detailed and will allow me to share specific information with my cousin and the rest of the family. Learning more without having to pay for "Big Y" is a relief too. We'll see if the family is good for another $100 or so for the SNP testing.

That is a good start. I still recommend BigY eventually, considering the unknowns, which means you could form a unique branch under CTS10228 or under one of the clades you could belong to as well.

Greekscholar
08-19-2019, 09:22 PM
SNP pack for I-P37 has been ordered. Hopefully they don't need another cheek swap from my cousin and can just test his existing submission. Either way, he is excited and I am too. Any clue what the normal wait time is when no new sample is needed? Thanks!

spruithean
08-29-2019, 02:03 PM
I agree with Dibran in the recommendation of Big Y, eventually if you are interested. In my opinion, Big Y was expensive, but it was sort of a catch all test that didn't require me ordering SNP packs and buying things piece by piece. Not saying you should buy it now (especially if it is out of the question).

I don't know if it has changed recently, but I remember the initial FTDNA kit had more than one vial for the swab and they kept your samples frozen for a fair amount of time. I doubt they'll need another sample, unless the remaining material doesn't pass quality standards.

Your SNP pack will probably take several weeks, your results will be visible on the haplotree section, if I remember correctly.

Greekscholar
09-02-2019, 05:57 PM
SNP pack back already (that felt fast.) My cousin is now classified as I-A2512, which appears downstream of the "Greek" I-18331 marker. This test feels very helpful. He is now put into a category with another Greek islander...........but it seems he could also be a very close match to the downstream A10959 cluster, whose male lines are from the Peloponnese.

Dibran
09-04-2019, 01:12 PM
SNP pack back already (that felt fast.) My cousin is now classified as I-A2512, which appears downstream of the "Greek" I-18331 marker. This test feels very helpful. He is now put into a category with another Greek islander...........but it seems he could also be a very close match to the downstream A10959 cluster, whose male lines are from the Peloponnese.

Awesome. So your cousin does fall in the Greek I2-A2512 cluster. It wasn't even that long ago it was discovered and it is already growing and splitting into clades on Yfull.

My Albanian L1029 cluster is growing too, just no one else has done bigY unfortunately(mainly YSEQ).

Greekscholar
09-04-2019, 09:01 PM
Yes, it was a surprise, apparently, based on his STR markers. As mentioned, the possible connection to the A10959 Peloponnese cluster is very exciting from a genealogy standpoint. My cousin is completely on board after we had a chance to discuss all the results in person, so more testing is probably on the way here soon.

pmokeefe
03-07-2021, 05:08 PM
Disproving a Cossack Paternal Ancestry for an Ashkenazic Lineage (https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Rachel-Unkefer/publication/349413715_Disproving_a_Cossack_Paternal_Ancestry_f or_an_Ashkenazic_Lineage/links/602ef6394585158939b473f9/Disproving-a-Cossack-Paternal-Ancestry-for-an-Ashkenazic-Lineage.pdf)
by Rachel Unkefer

Conclusion
The narrative of a cluster of Ashkenazi Jewish men belonging
to the I-P37 haplogroup that had been promulgated
prior to the advent of Next Generation Sequencing
(NGS) technology was of somewhat recent Cossack paternity
(perhaps in the 17th century). NGS testing has shown
that these men shared a common Jewish male ancestor
around 1,000 years ago, prior to any historical mention of
the Cossacks. In addition, the non-Jewish men with whom
they share an ancestor about 2,100 years ago, identify as
Greek, although their shared I-P37 haplogroup is most
common in present-day Balkan and Slavic countries.
Whether their shared ancestor lived in Greece, in a Greek
colony near the Black Sea, in Alexandria, Judea, or elsewhere,
there are multiple plausible explanations for how
this ancestor has present-day descendants whose ancestors
came from Greece and also the Eastern European Ashkenazi
Diaspora.