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Farroukh
07-24-2019, 09:08 AM
To date we have two exclusively by American I1 subclades of pre-Columbian age:

I-Y15031 (https://yfull.com/tree/I-Y15031/), formed 2100 ybp, TMRCA 375 ybp: TMRCA is low, but the formation time is earlier than Vikings period
I-BY1089 (https://yfull.com/tree/I-BY1089/), formed 2700 ybp, TMRCA 1200 ybp, fits in the period of Norse colonization of North America (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norse_colonization_of_North_America)

Erik Thorvaldsson, is it you? :D

https://b.radikal.ru/b29/1907/74/b961396d4ad0.jpg (https://radikal.ru)

Farroukh
07-24-2019, 09:36 AM
Both downstream suclades of I1-BY1089 located on East (Atlantic) Coast of USA, relatively close to Vinland (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vinland), land of grapes

spruithean
07-24-2019, 09:41 AM
South Carolina and Virginia are not exactly "close" to Newfoundland. These are reported genealogies from Americans who've not yet determined who their immigrant ancestor was. I highly doubt they are the descendants of Norse settlers of Vinland.

Farroukh
07-24-2019, 09:59 AM
spruithean, thanks for your interest. My post is just one of possible scenarios.

South Carolina and Virginia are not exactly "close" to Newfoundland.
Exact location of Vinland still unknown, theories only. If they really saw grapes (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vitis_labrusca), it was only along the eastern seaboard from Nova Scotia down to Georgia.
Theory of Cape Cod and Narragansett Bay (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cape_Cod#Discovery_by_Europeans).

Also look at their upstream subclades (I-Y15030 (https://yfull.com/tree/I-Y15030/) and I-Y36072 (https://yfull.com/tree/I-Y36072/)): both of them have only Scandinavian downstreams.

spruithean
07-24-2019, 10:12 AM
spruithean, thanks for your interest. My post is just one of possible scenarios.

Exact location of Vinland still unknown, theories only. If they really saw grapes (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vitis_labrusca), it was only along the eastern seaboard from Nova Scotia down to Georgia.
Theory of Cape Cod and Narragansett Bay (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cape_Cod#Discovery_by_Europeans).

Vinland was a failed colony, no? As in it was abandoned due to various reasons. New Brunswick is another likely location outside of Newfoundland (considering the lack of grapes in NFLD). Both these areas aren't too far from other Norse colonies in Greenland.

While I'm open to the idea of descendants of Norse settlers of North America still walking among us we'd first need to see evidence from the people on the YFull branches you linked. Do they report themselves as "Native American"?

Farroukh
07-24-2019, 10:27 AM
We have no final evidence now. European subclades among Native Americans and someone self-identity are not the proof too. Only aDNA results from Viking remnants in North America will reveal it.

I just share my idea (as one of many hypotheses):
- roots of both suclades are in Scandinavia, no other European matches
- their TMRCA fits with age of Viking seawalkings
- their recent location is eastern seaboard

Ruderico
07-24-2019, 10:28 AM
Also keep in mind the TMRCA date has a rather wide CI. I-Y15031's is 500-275 ybp and I-BY1089 2000-500 ybp for example

Farroukh
07-24-2019, 10:37 AM
TMRCA and formation period are important. I1 is one of well sequenced haplogroups. These two suclades have only Scandinavian co-branches with pre-Viking time to coalescence.

Ruderico
07-24-2019, 10:38 AM
There were plenty of Scandinavians who moved to the Americas during the colonial period, I find it very unlikely that either of those are pre-Columbian

spruithean
07-24-2019, 10:48 AM
Also keep in mind the TMRCA date has a rather wide CI. I-Y15031's is 500-275 ybp and I-BY1089 2000-500 ybp for example

Precisely.


TMRCA and formation period are important. I1 is one of well sequenced haplogroups. These two suclades have only Scandinavian co-branches with pre-Viking time to coalescence.

Agreed. I highly doubt it's pre-Columbian.

Farroukh
07-24-2019, 11:15 AM
I1 among Native peoples of Canada:

DYS19 DYS385 DYS389I DYS389II DYS390 DYS391 DYS392 DYS393 DYS437 DYS438 DYS439 DYS448 DYS456 DYS458 DYS635 Y GATA H4

Dulik 2012 Gwich’in I1* M253(xM21,M72,P109,P259) 15 13-14 13 29 22 10 11 13 16 10 11 20 15 16 21 11
Dulik 2012 Tłı̨chǫ I1* M253(xM21,M72,P109,P259) 15 13-14 12 28 22 10 11 13 16 10 11 20 14 16 21 11
Dulik 2012 Inuvialuit I1* M253(xM21,M72,P109,P259) 14 13-13 12 28 22 10 11 13 16 10 11 20 15 15 21 11
Dulik 2012 Inuvialuit I1* M253(xM21,M72,P109,P259) 14 13-14 12 28 22 10 11 14 16 10 11 20 14 15 22 11
Dulik 2012 Inuit I1* M253(xM21,M72,P109,P259) 14 13-13 12 28 22 10 11 13 16 10 11 20 15 15 21 11

Farroukh
07-24-2019, 11:32 AM
There were plenty of Scandinavians who moved to the Americas during the colonial period, I find it very unlikely that either of those are pre-Columbian
Indeed. My speculation is only about a couple of subclades, not all Americans/Canadians with Scandinavian ancestry.

Farroukh
07-24-2019, 11:45 AM
To date I1 Yfull tree contains 140 bams from USA and 5 from Canada.
Only I-Y15031 and I-BY1089 subclades has no post-Columbian relative branches. That is why they can be considered as possible footprint of Vikings.
(I-Y33718 and some others contains American and nonamed samples).

MitchellSince1893
07-24-2019, 12:26 PM
Virginia and South Carolina sounds more like the Lost Colony.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roanoke_Colony

Farroukh
07-24-2019, 12:40 PM
Virginia and South Carolina sounds more like the Lost Colony.
Yes, this scenario is one of suitable explanations too. But TMRCA of I1-Y15031 and I1-BY1089 is older than Roanoke colony times.

Webb
07-24-2019, 12:43 PM
Vinland was a failed colony, no? As in it was abandoned due to various reasons. New Brunswick is another likely location outside of Newfoundland (considering the lack of grapes in NFLD). Both these areas aren't too far from other Norse colonies in Greenland.

While I'm open to the idea of descendants of Norse settlers of North America still walking among us we'd first need to see evidence from the people on the YFull branches you linked. Do they report themselves as "Native American"?

I think New Brunswick is favored for the settlement based on something as simple as a butternut. It is a tree in the walnut family that only grows in hardwood, temperate forests. I'll link the article:

https://www.canadianmysteries.ca/sites/vinland/whereisvinland/newbrunswick/indexen.html

deadly77
07-24-2019, 07:17 PM
I think the premise is unlikely. The YFull tree is based on NGS tests uploaded to YFull and not everyone uploads to YFull. If you cross reference the same branches on the FTDNA haplotree, there are examples of kits listing England as an origin. From the most common surnames, you can look up the surname projects for those - Biby for I-BY35364, I-Y129466 (under I-BY3464 on FTDNA, phyloequivalent to I-BY1089) , Brewer for I-Y15031 and subclades. Those have several people that they are grouped with that list England as origin along with America. The project summaries suggest that they see themselves as coming to Colonial America from the British Isles.

I think it's just more likely that a well organized surname project has tested quite a few closely related individuals in America, and the individuals who would break up their branch a bit more inbetween the formed and TMRCA haven't tested to that level of resolution.

Not saying that you're incorrect, but I think there needs to be a lot more supporting evidence.

spruithean
07-24-2019, 08:48 PM
I1 among Native peoples of Canada:

DYS19 DYS385 DYS389I DYS389II DYS390 DYS391 DYS392 DYS393 DYS437 DYS438 DYS439 DYS448 DYS456 DYS458 DYS635 Y GATA H4

Dulik 2012 Gwich’in I1* M253(xM21,M72,P109,P259) 15 13-14 13 29 22 10 11 13 16 10 11 20 15 16 21 11
Dulik 2012 Tłı̨chǫ I1* M253(xM21,M72,P109,P259) 15 13-14 12 28 22 10 11 13 16 10 11 20 14 16 21 11
Dulik 2012 Inuvialuit I1* M253(xM21,M72,P109,P259) 14 13-13 12 28 22 10 11 13 16 10 11 20 15 15 21 11
Dulik 2012 Inuvialuit I1* M253(xM21,M72,P109,P259) 14 13-14 12 28 22 10 11 14 16 10 11 20 14 15 22 11
Dulik 2012 Inuit I1* M253(xM21,M72,P109,P259) 14 13-13 12 28 22 10 11 13 16 10 11 20 15 15 21 11

The Dulik paper acknowledged that these individuals were aboriginal but made note that they had some genetic ancestry from Europeans.

A quote from the paper, https://www.pnas.org/content/109/22/8471:


Earlier studies of Aboriginal and Native American Y chromosomes struggled to identify the number of indigenous founder
haplogroups from those haplogroups that recently came from
European and African sources (16, 23–26). Based on our examination of genealogical information and high-resolution genotypes,
we were able to distinguish between these sources; 48% of the
Gwich’in and 43% of the Inuvialuit Y chromosomes were more
typically found in Europeans. By contrast, only 19% of the Tł˛icho˛
lineages were nonindigenous. Comparisons of these data with data
from worldwide populations (www.yhrd.org) showed exact or near matches between the haplotypes of nonindigenous lineages and
those haplotypes of Europeans. Hence, although these men are
Aboriginal, some of their genetic ancestry traces back to Europe.

Given the history of European fur trade activity in Northern Canada, with Pacific Fur Trade off the coast of BC and Alaska it is not a surprise to find some European lineages among aboriginal people. Some of the tribes listed with some I1 samples are Dene and the Dene had their earliest contact with European people circa 1700s, with the eventual gold rush in the 1900s white settlement increased in the area. The same goes for the Inuit groups (Inuvialuit & Mackenzie Inuit), who had connections with Russians and other Europeans (including European descended American whalers). It would seem to me that these European lineages ended up in these Aboriginal groups through contact with European traders & American traders, this seems much more realistic compared to linking it to Norse settlers of Vinland on the east coast of North America (the Athabaskan-speaking tribes & Inuit tribes mentioned from Alaska & Northern Canada, some within the Arctic circle).

Farroukh
07-25-2019, 02:05 AM
they had some genetic ancestry from Europeans
Undoubtedly, İ-M253 is of European origin. It matters in which particular era it first came to America. Only aDNA samples from old Viking sites in America will reveal it.

Those have several people that they are grouped with that list England as origin along with America.
If so, it excludes my assumption and is an example of completely extinction of some subclades in Europe with refuged lonely line in the New World.

spruithean
07-25-2019, 02:28 AM
Undoubtedly, İ-M253 is of European origin. It matters in which particular era it first came to America. Only aDNA samples from old Viking sites in America will reveal it.

I highly doubt the Aboriginal people of Alaska, Yukon, NWT and so on are descended from Norse settlers from Vinland. My points about European activity in regards to the fur trade, whaling, exploration, settlement post-Columbus era (let's think Rupert's land & Hudson's Bay Company times) still stands. It is likely these activities by white settlers, trappers, traders, whalers, etc are responsible for these European Y-DNA lineages of some members of Dene, Inuvialuit, and Inuit people. These samples on YFull contain self-reported ancestral information. We do not know the genealogy of these individuals and it is much more likely these YFull individuals are of British or some other Colonial era European descent.


If so, it excludes my assumption and is an example of completely extinction of some subclades in Europe with refuged lonely line in the New World.

What? YFull is limited by the amount of people who upload, and by the amount of people from a certain haplogroup who've tested. You can't assume that because we only see this SNP in Americans that it must be absent elsewhere. Sample bias and lack of testing.

Farroukh
07-25-2019, 05:03 AM
I highly doubt the Aboriginal people of Alaska, Yukon, NWT and so on are descended from Norse settlers from Vinland.
Naturally, it is highly unlikely.

These samples on YFull contain self-reported ancestral information.
Any ancestral information on Yfull, FTDNA, scientific papers and anywhere else is a personal declaration of the individual, am I right? There is no other reliable ways except DNA tests.

We do not know the genealogy of these individuals and it is much more likely these YFull individuals are of British or some other Colonial era European descent.
It is just personal opinion in the absence of other additional information. Based on the available data, one can generate several different ideas.

Sample bias and lack of testing.
Yes. But we talking about well-explored I1 with general TMRCA 4.6 kya only. Ofcourse, there are some chance to detect in Britain/Scandinavia new I1 subclades older than 1000 years. But the same probability that I-Y15031 and I-BY1089 remained only in USA today.