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Rwaka
07-24-2019, 04:09 PM
Hello,

I'm Tutsi from Rwanda and carries E-M293 y-dna but on living dna they gave me E-Z830, which I think it's an ancestral clade.
Anyone knows when the mutation occured and it's ancestral and sibling clades.

Thank you very much
Rwaka

Farroukh
07-25-2019, 05:35 AM
Dear Rwaka, welcome to forum!


I'm Tutsi from Rwanda and carries E-M293
Which lab tested you for M293 (https://yfull.com/tree/E-M293/)+?
M293 in East Africa region connected with Hamite migrations of E-Z1267 farmers and herders from Ethiopia.

https://b.radikal.ru/b30/1907/f5/bac19c453d23.png (https://radikal.ru)

Rwaka
07-25-2019, 10:26 AM
Thanks for the information. It's 23andme that tested me with E-M293. I also ran my ancestrydna raw data in morley y-dna and E-M293 came as the most likely. Do you have any more details about E-Z1267 and all the clades that predated it?

Farroukh
07-25-2019, 03:26 PM
If you interested in scientific papers let me recommend you to read this:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2504844/

https://books.google.az/books?id=2HMTBwAAQBAJ&pg=PA120&lpg=PA120&dq=m293+pastoralists&source=bl&ots=nQOOHVdcrv&sig=ACfU3U0w4DoNGlmqbOm1i1l63_Vtq3ogig&hl=ru&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwicoJifsNDjAhVvyqYKHcaZB4QQ6AEwDnoECAkQA Q

VytautusofAukstaitija
07-26-2019, 12:44 AM
E-M293 gets its fame as the diagnostic South Erythrean paternal lineage, and it was well known for this even before the PN/ELM 2019 paper. It is an E-M35 lineage, however it is E-Z827, a brotherly lineage to E-L539 (E-M78's predecessor). The last common ancestor for all E-M293 thus far lived around 4,500 years ago, just around the time (+/- a few hundred years) South Erythrean broke off from East Erythrean likely somewhere in the Horn, and specifically in the Somali lowlands where 5,000 year old Erythrean pastoralist cattle herding cultures existed, and who even depicted in ancient cave paintings cattle of the type ancestral to Tutsi and Great Lakes cattle. The Natufians were E-Z830, and are the earliest E-Z830 and E-Z827 recorded. The earliest E-M35 and E-L539 however, are the Ibermaursians of NW Africa, and the Natufians had ancestry from people similar to these earlier E-M35 Ibermaursians - not the other way around.

The earliest known member of your lineage is in a 3,000 year old Pastoral Neolithic South Erythrean nomad (I8809), who was also mtdna M1a1 like yourself. Around half of the 22 PN/ELM South Erythrean ancients had or likely carried E-M293. The earliest (mentioned) was 1,000-1,500 years removed from the mrca. By 4,000 years ago, it's likely your South Erythrean ancestors had crossed past the Tana river and into the Rift from northern Kenya.

Here's an overview of your lineage:

E-M35>E-Z827>E-Z830>E-CTS10880 (E-V1515)>E-Y5861>E-CTS1177 (E-V1846)>E-Z1267>E-M293

The closest lineages to E-M293 are other E-Z1267 lineages, with which E-M293 shares a 5,000 ybp mrca. E-V1515 - the E-M35 lineage most non-E-M78 Erythreans have and to which E-M293 belongs - despite it being an old lineage, was most likely a founding lineage of the pre-proto-Erythreans. Your closest relatives outside of other E-M293 and E-Z1267 carriers would be other E-V1515 men, who are present in high frequencies throughout the Horn and in every major Erythrean sub-group except the Beja. E-V151 has two major lineages: E-V1700 and E-V1486, the latter to which E-M293 belongs. The most ancestral and basal E-V1515 lineages are all clustered in northern Eritrea and Ethiopia amongst the Ethiosemitic Tigray and Amhara, Central Erythrean Agew and Ethiopian Jews, and the Nilo-Saharan Kunama and Nara - the latter 2 Nilo-Saharan groups being heavily admixed with the neighboring Ethiosemitic groups. The East Erythrean Afar and Ethiosemitic Amhara are rich in E-V6 - a E-V1515 lineage more distant to E-M293, being as it is a E-V1700 lineage along with E-V42. Another E-V1515 lineage, a brother lineage of E-M293 as they both are E-V1486 (the other major E-V1515 lineage) is E-V92, a lineage found almost solely in Habeshas, and same goes for aforementioned E-V42 (a E-V1700 lineage), which seems as of now wholly restricted to more northern parts of Ethiopia amongst Central Erythreans (Ethiopian Jews) and the Kunama and Nara, and Amhara, but at much higher frequencies than E-V92. E-V1785* (E-GG24), a basal E-V1515 lineage ancestral to E-V6, makes up more than a quarter amongst the Tigray, and the same situation exists for ancestal E-V1486* - the other major E-V1515 lineage and the one ancestral to E-M293. As such, the two major branches of E-V1515 have their basal lineages in high frequency amongst the Tigray and northern Ethiosemites and the Nilo-Saharan Kunama and Nara (who have heavy sex-biased admixture from the aforementioned groups). Outside of the Horn, only E-V6 (along with E-V32) is also found in NW Egyptians from Siwa and Baharia. The lineage is present in the Arabian peninsula due to both long-term Aksumite socio-political hegemony in the late centuries BC and early AD, and later medieval, early modern, and late modern Horn African mamluks and slave armies, and slave-administrators, many whom settled and intermarried with the local Arab populations they policed and governed under various Arabian dynasties and monarchies.

Of the two major branchings of E-V1515, E-V1486 looks to be a major lineage of the South-East Erythrean population of Somali lowlands 5,000 years ago. It contains both E-M293 and E-V2881, the former most strongly associated with South Erythreans and found in the majority of South Erythrean males. E-V2881 is associated and found most significantly in East Erythreans in turn, especially in Oromos. While I have not seen any E-V2881 in the ancient samples or in modern populations south of Kenya, E-M293 has been recorded in Oromos, Wolaytas, and other East Erythrean and Erythrean and Omotic ethnic groups from southern Ethiopia and northern Kenya. It may be that E-M293 may have East Erythrean branch, and the South Erythreans a branch of E-V32 - especially as the earliest recorded E-V32 male was found amongst the South Erythreans, and a more basal E-V32 is found amongst Kenyan Nilotic and Bantu groups, and especially amongst the Bantu Luhya (although their E-Z813 is possibly of recent Boran Oromo origin). The same might be true for E-V2881. As such, it is likely that the E-V1515 lineages of the South Erythreans was not solely E-M293, and I'm sure at some point some Khoe, Xhosa, or Great Lakes pastoralist guy will get tested and show up with E-V2881 or some other E-V1486 or even E-V1700, just as we continue to find more E-M293 in Oromos and Wolaytas, and other East Erythrean, Omotic, and other Horn African groups.

Your ancestors - the South Erythreans - were likely the first NE African nomads to penetrate successfully south of the northern Frontier-south Somalia tropical-riverine zone and into Southeast Africa, and from there further afield, and by 2,000 South Erythrean clans and subgroups probably went past the Zambezi river into Botswana/Angola/Zimbabwe/Namibia, as perhaps as far as South Africa as Khoe-San DNA from South Africa and dating of archeological remains of cattle show.

Since the South Erythreans mixed heavily with the Khoe-San HG populations of the southern Africa, all Khoe and San people - whether pastoralists or hunter-gatherers - have significant Erythrean ancestry and most groups carry E-M35 at significant frequencies, even the most isolated ones. Because of the ancient cross-continental migration of the South Erythreans, E-M239 is found in significant frequencies from the cape to central Ethiopia. It peaks in South Erythrean populations like the Iraqw and Burunge, along with Great Lakes pastoralist groups like the Tutsi, south Nilotes, the Khoe nomads and San HG groups of southern and southwest Africa. It is present in Bantu groups ranging from Mt. Kenya and the Great Lakes to Southwestern Africa, such as the Kikuyu, Luhya, Rangi, Zulu, Xhosa, Herero, and Ovambo, and many of these diverse Khoe-San, Bantu, and Nilotic groups still practice cultural artefacts and the cattle-herding lifestyle of their bygone South Erythrean ancestors.

Concerning the deep history of E-V1515:

Because E-V1515 is around 12-11,000 years old, and since this lineage is essentially almost wholly restricted to Eythreans and Erythrean admixed people, it is very likely E-V1515 was a signature lineage of the pre-proto-Erythrean hunter-gatherers of Red Sea Egypt and Sudan. It is likely your E-M35 ancestors never really left NE Africa until the Erythrean migration beginning 7-6,000 years ago into the Horn and likely as far southwards to the Zambezi.

Farroukh
07-26-2019, 01:56 AM
Vytautus, very interesting review. Let us recommend rwaka to test at FTDNA with BigY700

Rwaka
07-26-2019, 07:24 AM
Vytautus, very interesting review. Let us recommend rwaka to test at FTDNA with BigY700

Thanks very much Vytautus for the detailed information. Yes I'm thinking about doing it.

Espoir
07-26-2019, 01:46 PM
E-M293 gets its fame as the diagnostic South Erythrean paternal lineage, and it was well known for this even before the PN/ELM 2019 paper. It is an E-M35 lineage, however it is E-Z827, a brotherly lineage to E-L539 (E-M78's predecessor). The last common ancestor for all E-M293 thus far lived around 4,500 years ago, just around the time (+/- a few hundred years) South Erythrean broke off from East Erythrean likely somewhere in the Horn, and specifically in the Somali lowlands where 5,000 year old Erythrean pastoralist cattle herding cultures existed, and who even depicted in ancient cave paintings cattle of the type ancestral to Tutsi and Great Lakes cattle. The Natufians were E-Z830, and are the earliest E-Z830 and E-Z827 recorded. The earliest E-M35 and E-L539 however, are the Ibermaursians of NW Africa, and the Natufians had ancestry from people similar to these earlier E-M35 Ibermaursians - not the other way around.

The earliest known member of your lineage is in a 3,000 year old Pastoral Neolithic South Erythrean nomad (I8809), who was also mtdna M1a1 like yourself. Around half of the 22 PN/ELM South Erythrean ancients had or likely carried E-M293. The earliest (mentioned) was 1,000-1,500 years removed from the mrca. By 4,000 years ago, it's likely your South Erythrean ancestors had crossed past the Tana river and into the Rift from northern Kenya.

Here's an overview of your lineage:

E-M35>E-Z827>E-Z830>E-CTS10880 (E-V1515)>E-Y5861>E-CTS1177 (E-V1846)>E-Z1267>E-M293

The closest lineages to E-M293 are other E-Z1267 lineages, with which E-M293 shares a 5,000 ybp mrca. E-V1515 - the E-M35 lineage most non-E-M78 Erythreans have and to which E-M293 belongs - despite it being an old lineage, was most likely a founding lineage of the pre-proto-Erythreans. Your closest relatives outside of other E-M293 and E-Z1267 carriers would be other E-V1515 men, who are present in high frequencies throughout the Horn and in every major Erythrean sub-group except the Beja. E-V151 has two major lineages: E-V1700 and E-V1486, the latter to which E-M293 belongs. The most ancestral and basal E-V1515 lineages are all clustered in northern Eritrea and Ethiopia amongst the Ethiosemitic Tigray and Amhara, Central Erythrean Agew and Ethiopian Jews, and the Nilo-Saharan Kunama and Nara - the latter 2 Nilo-Saharan groups being heavily admixed with the neighboring Ethiosemitic groups. The East Erythrean Afar and Ethiosemitic Amhara are rich in E-V6 - a E-V1515 lineage more distant to E-M293, being as it is a E-V1700 lineage along with E-V42. Another E-V1515 lineage, a brother lineage of E-M293 as they both are E-V1486 (the other major E-V1515 lineage) is E-V92, a lineage found almost solely in Habeshas, and same goes for aforementioned E-V42 (a E-V1700 lineage), which seems as of now wholly restricted to more northern parts of Ethiopia amongst Central Erythreans (Ethiopian Jews) and the Kunama and Nara, and Amhara, but at much higher frequencies than E-V92. E-V1785* (E-GG24), a basal E-V1515 lineage ancestral to E-V6, makes up more than a quarter amongst the Tigray, and the same situation exists for ancestal E-V1486* - the other major E-V1515 lineage and the one ancestral to E-M293. As such, the two major branches of E-V1515 have their basal lineages in high frequency amongst the Tigray and northern Ethiosemites and the Nilo-Saharan Kunama and Nara (who have heavy sex-biased admixture from the aforementioned groups). Outside of the Horn, only E-V6 (along with E-V32) is also found in NW Egyptians from Siwa and Baharia. The lineage is present in the Arabian peninsula due to both long-term Aksumite socio-political hegemony in the late centuries BC and early AD, and later medieval, early modern, and late modern Horn African mamluks and slave armies, and slave-administrators, many whom settled and intermarried with the local Arab populations they policed and governed under various Arabian dynasties and monarchies.

Of the two major branchings of E-V1515, E-V1486 looks to be a major lineage of the South-East Erythrean population of Somali lowlands 5,000 years ago. It contains both E-M293 and E-V2881, the former most strongly associated with South Erythreans and found in the majority of South Erythrean males. E-V2881 is associated and found most significantly in East Erythreans in turn, especially in Oromos. While I have not seen any E-V2881 in the ancient samples or in modern populations south of Kenya, E-M293 has been recorded in Oromos, Wolaytas, and other East Erythrean and Erythrean and Omotic ethnic groups from southern Ethiopia and northern Kenya. It may be that E-M293 may have East Erythrean branch, and the South Erythreans a branch of E-V32 - especially as the earliest recorded E-V32 male was found amongst the South Erythreans, and a more basal E-V32 is found amongst Kenyan Nilotic and Bantu groups, and especially amongst the Bantu Luhya (although their E-Z813 is possibly of recent Boran Oromo origin). The same might be true for E-V2881. As such, it is likely that the E-V1515 lineages of the South Erythreans was not solely E-M293, and I'm sure at some point some Khoe, Xhosa, or Great Lakes pastoralist guy will get tested and show up with E-V2881 or some other E-V1486 or even E-V1700, just as we continue to find more E-M293 in Oromos and Wolaytas, and other East Erythrean, Omotic, and other Horn African groups.

Your ancestors - the South Erythreans - were likely the first NE African nomads to penetrate successfully south of the northern Frontier-south Somalia tropical-riverine zone and into Southeast Africa, and from there further afield, and by 2,000 South Erythrean clans and subgroups probably went past the Zambezi river into Botswana/Angola/Zimbabwe/Namibia, as perhaps as far as South Africa as Khoe-San DNA from South Africa and dating of archeological remains of cattle show.

Since the South Erythreans mixed heavily with the Khoe-San HG populations of the southern Africa, all Khoe and San people - whether pastoralists or hunter-gatherers - have significant Erythrean ancestry and most groups carry E-M35 at significant frequencies, even the most isolated ones. Because of the ancient cross-continental migration of the South Erythreans, E-M239 is found in significant frequencies from the cape to central Ethiopia. It peaks in South Erythrean populations like the Iraqw and Burunge, along with Great Lakes pastoralist groups like the Tutsi, south Nilotes, the Khoe nomads and San HG groups of southern and southwest Africa. It is present in Bantu groups ranging from Mt. Kenya and the Great Lakes to Southwestern Africa, such as the Kikuyu, Luhya, Rangi, Zulu, Xhosa, Herero, and Ovambo, and many of these diverse Khoe-San, Bantu, and Nilotic groups still practice cultural artefacts and the cattle-herding lifestyle of their bygone South Erythrean ancestors.

Concerning the deep history of E-V1515:

Because E-V1515 is around 12-11,000 years old, and since this lineage is essentially almost wholly restricted to Eythreans and Erythrean admixed people, it is very likely E-V1515 was a signature lineage of the pre-proto-Erythrean hunter-gatherers of Red Sea Egypt and Sudan. It is likely your E-M35 ancestors never really left NE Africa until the Erythrean migration beginning 7-6,000 years ago into the Horn and likely as far southwards to the Zambezi.
Quite a huge impact on the continent. You mentioned E-V1515 being signature of Red Sea HGs. Any idea on how they transitioned from a HG society to a pastoral way of life? Was pastoralism introduced by diffusion or they themselves domesticated cattle( I’m biased on cattle)? We know that progenitor of Ankole long-horned cattle originated in the lower Nile, not so far from where E-V1515 is thought to have originated.

Farroukh
07-27-2019, 01:52 PM
Your BigY result will be very interesting for better understanding of ethnogenesis of our southern brothers of E-M293 branch!
Good luck Rwaka brother!

Rwaka
12-13-2019, 02:51 AM
I did y-111 test on Ftdna. I wanted to know if anyone of you know how to interpret the results. Thanks

Farroukh
12-15-2019, 09:47 AM
Dou you have matches?

Rwaka
12-15-2019, 04:14 PM
Dou you have matches?

I don't have any; which is weird. On my mtdna, I had some matches. But on this one, not even at Y-12. Is that possible?
Anyway, my friends did also theirs; let's hope I'll get them as my first matches ��
And, oh by the way, they told me 'I was probably" E-M35 when for my mtdna it's confirmed that I'm M1a1f

Farroukh
12-15-2019, 06:48 PM
But on this one, not even at Y-12. Is that possible?
Yes, it is possible for relict or non-tested subclades.

my mtdna it's confirmed that I'm M1a1f
Your Y-DNA and Mt-DNA is typical for Сentral and East Africa.

But anyway try to upgrade your results as wide as possible.

Farroukh
12-15-2019, 07:19 PM
Any idea on how they transitioned from a HG society to a pastoral way of life? Was pastoralism introduced by diffusion or they themselves domesticated cattle( Iím biased on cattle)? We know that progenitor of Ankole long-horned cattle originated in the lower Nile, not so far from where E-V1515 is thought to have originated.
Y-chromosomal evidence of a pastoralist migration through Tanzania to southern Africa (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2504844/)

Spreading of pastoralism in Southern and Central Africa seems to be related with E-M293 subclade and Watusi, which origins from Northern Africa (green area on the map (https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/9c/Bos_primigenius_map.jpg))

alchemist223
12-15-2019, 11:26 PM
I did y-111 test on Ftdna. I wanted to know if anyone of you know how to interpret the results. Thanks

To learn more about your subclade and its origins, I would highly recommend joining the E-M35 project at FTDNA (here at https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/e-3b/about/background).

Rwaka
12-16-2019, 03:21 AM
To learn more about your subclade and its origins, I would highly recommend joining the E-M35 project at FTDNA (here at https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/e-3b/about/background).

Thank you. I joined the project and posted a comment. Will they have access to my data?

alchemist223
12-16-2019, 07:03 AM
I would highly recommend sharing your 23andme results to the E-M35 project (at FTDNA), as this will help the administrators place your kit into a more detailed subclade.

Farroukh
12-16-2019, 04:08 PM
You can change access settings in your profile. The best way is to set full access for E-M35 admins.

Rwaka
12-19-2019, 10:29 AM
My branch:
E-M35>E-Z827>E-Z830>E-CTS10880 (E-V1515)>E-Y5861>E-CTS1177 (E-V1846)>E-Z1267>E-M293>Y17344>Y17344*.

https://yfull.com/tree/E-M293/

Rwaka
12-19-2019, 11:47 AM
They told me I was given Y17344* because my true subclade is get to be discovered; "my data doesn't fully match to those assigned as Y17344. Once additional testers match my data I'll be moved to another subclade more compatible with the members therein." The future is bright.

Angoliga
12-19-2019, 06:36 PM
My branch:
E-M35>E-Z827>E-Z830>E-CTS10880 (E-V1515)>E-Y5861>E-CTS1177 (E-V1846)>E-Z1267>E-M293>Y17344>Y17344*.

https://yfull.com/tree/E-M293/

Interesting, there's some similarities between E-M293 (https://yfull.com/tree/E-M293/) and A-M13's A-Y25085 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/A-Y25085/):

https://i.imgur.com/9IQfmWo.png

These common formation dates (~5000 BP/4900 BP), and concentration of nilotic-speakers, might chronologically reflect "Proto-Kir-Abbaian" in the linguistic phylum of Nilo-Saharan:

https://i.imgur.com/YZgmGUq.png
(Andah, 2014 (https://books.google.ca/books?id=mtOhAwAAQBAJ&pg=PA116&dq=proto-nilotic++5th+millennium&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwj6kp3IocLmAhVDSK0KHTlTBvwQ6AEILzAB#v=on epage&q=proto-nilotic%20%205th%20millennium&f=false))


The largest and most well-known KirĖAbbaian language group is Nilotic, that might explain the concentration of Dinka, Luo and Maasai samples.

- this would relate to the "Southern-Nilotic" hypothesis (https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?18428-PCA-G25_scaled-Africans-only-(Users-amp-Ancients-Modern-Avgs)&p=613126&viewfull=1#post613126) inferred by the G25 results of Tutsi-related samples.

Espoir
12-20-2019, 06:27 PM
Y-chromosomal evidence of a pastoralist migration through Tanzania to southern Africa (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2504844/)

Spreading of pastoralism in Southern and Central Africa seems to be related with E-M293 subclade and Watusi, which origins from Northern Africa (green area on the map (https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/9c/Bos_primigenius_map.jpg))

Glad that someone observed that Ankole-Watusi Longhorned cattle spread in the Great Lakes region from lower Nile.


African pastoralism: genetic imprints of origins and migrations.
Hanotte O, et al. Science. 2002.
Show full citation
Abstract
The genetic history of African cattle pastoralism is controversial and poorly understood. We reveal the genetic signatures of its origins, secondary movements, and differentiation through the study of 15 microsatellite loci in 50 indigenous cattle breeds spanning the present cattle distribution in Africa. The earliest cattle originated within the African continent, but Near East and European genetic influences are also identified. The initial expansion of African Bos taurus was likely from a single region of origin. It reached the southern part of the continent by following an eastern route rather than a western one. The B. indicus genetic influence shows a major entry point through the Horn and the East Coast of Africa and two modes of introgression into the continent.

Source: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/11951043/

Paths taken by both E-M293 and Watusi cattle are strikingly similar.

drobbah
12-21-2019, 04:36 PM
Interesting, there's some similarities between E-M293 (https://yfull.com/tree/E-M293/) and A-M13's A-Y25085 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/A-Y25085/):

https://i.imgur.com/9IQfmWo.png

These common formation dates (~5000 BP/4900 BP), and concentration of nilotic-speakers, might chronologically reflect "Proto-Kir-Abbaian" in the linguistic phylum of Nilo-Saharan:

https://i.imgur.com/YZgmGUq.png
(Andah, 2014 (https://books.google.ca/books?id=mtOhAwAAQBAJ&pg=PA116&dq=proto-nilotic++5th+millennium&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwj6kp3IocLmAhVDSK0KHTlTBvwQ6AEILzAB#v=on epage&q=proto-nilotic%20%205th%20millennium&f=false))


The largest and most well-known Kir–Abbaian language group is Nilotic, that might explain the concentration of Dinka, Luo and Maasai samples.

- this would relate to the "Southern-Nilotic" hypothesis (https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?18428-PCA-G25_scaled-Africans-only-(Users-amp-Ancients-Modern-Avgs)&p=613126&viewfull=1#post613126) inferred by the G25 results of Tutsi-related samples.

The Horn has diverse V1515 lineages (including the V1486 branch that M293 is part of) and those neolithic pastoralists samples from Kenya/Tanzania and the Iraqw also have a high frequency of E-M293.There is no reason to believe that this lineage was brought by Nilotic speakers from South Sudan.

Angoliga
12-23-2019, 01:04 PM
The Horn has diverse V1515 lineages (including the V1486 branch that M293 is part of) ...

The closest lineage to E-M293 is E-Z1267 (5 ky tmrca): considering pastoralist ancestry hadn't fully colonized the Horn in this time-period (ETH_4500BP HG), along with the general lack of detection in Horner pops, a broader northern east-african region might be more appropriate for this lineage's north-to-south expansion...


"We propose that the migration marked by the E-M293 haplogroup could be the final step of a north-to-south range expansion linked to different branches of E-V1515, which initially involved people from Eritrea (and possibly northern Sudan, not sampled here)". (Trombetta, 2015 (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4524485/))




... and those neolithic pastoralists samples from Kenya/Tanzania and the Iraqw also have a high frequency of E-M293.

Interestingly, the highest E-M293 frequency and Y-STR diversity has been observed among the Datoog, a Southern-Nilotic speaking population:


"...the Tanzanian Datog population has both the highest haplogroup E3b1f-M293 frequency (43%) and Y-STR diversity (Table 1) of any group surveyed. The Datog are pastoralists who speak a Southern Nilotic language." (Henn, 2008 (https://www.pnas.org/content/105/31/10693))


*Despite this taken into account, Y-DNA and linguistic affiliation needn't always correlate, especially within a broad time-scale and region as anthropologically complex as East-Africa -- the bigger call-out here would be the internal Y-STR diversity



... There is no reason to believe that this lineage was brought by Nilotic speakers from South Sudan.

A region within the Middle-Nile Basin (modern Sudan) would be more appropriate: the eastern Middle-Nile Basin south of the Abbai River, which would be south-east of present-day Khartoum, is considered the urhermiat of Nilotic speakers.

The Levant_PPNC affinities (https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?18428-PCA-G25_scaled-Africans-only-(Users-amp-Ancients-Modern-Avgs)&p=613126&viewfull=1#post613126)observed in modern North-African pops, and minor non-negligible %s observed in modern/aDNA samples of Southern-Nilotic ancestry, gives the impression that the Southern-Nilotic branch of Nilotic speakers might've been situated in the northern-sphere of the afmd urhermiat.



This might reflect the ancestral North-African Bos-Taurus breed of Ankole-Watusi being introduced to Middle-Nile valley Nilotic-speakers from where it spread across Central-East and Southern-Africa:

https://i.imgur.com/PF0wVZ4.png
Fig.1 (Okeyo et al., 2015 (https://www.researchgate.net/publication/279222258_-_Invited_Review_-_African_Indigenous_Cattle_Unique_Genetic_Resource s_in_a_Rapidly_Changing_World))




The proto Western-Nilotic branch of Nilotic speakers (Dinka, Nuer, Anuak, Acholi, Luo..) are believed to have been situated further west in Bahr el Ghazal; the main western tributary of the Nile. This group of River-Lake Nilotes have experienced a *relatively recent regional expansion, giving them a significant proportion of the present-day South-Sudanese population (Dinka (38.8%), Nuer people (27.6%).. ) despite there being a wider-diversity of nearly 60 ethnic-groups who've had an altering sway on South-Sudanese demography: some of these groups include Baggara Arabs, Central-Sudanic Speakers (Bari, Madi..) with the longest hegemony, fairly recent Eastern-Nilotic speakers (>17th century Bari, Mandari), Non-Nilotic Azande, and even modern Fulani to name a few -- that's to say, the demography of South-Sudan shouldn't be considered static, the distribution for many of these pastoral-groups have changed quite drastically throughout antiquity.


Ultimately of course, further sampling from the neolithic onward along with more representation of regional ethnic-groups (the Horn, North/South-Sudan) will clarify E-M293.

Alfa
12-23-2019, 04:31 PM
The closest lineage to E-M293 is E-Z1267 (5 ky tmrca): considering pastoralist ancestry hadn't fully colonized the Horn in this time-period (ETH_4500BP HG), along with the general lack of detection in Horner pops, a broader northern east-african region might be more appropriate for this lineage's north-to-south expansion...


"We propose that the migration marked by the E-M293 haplogroup could be the final step of a north-to-south range expansion linked to different branches of E-V1515, which initially involved people from Eritrea (and possibly northern Sudan, not sampled here)". (Trombetta, 2015 (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4524485/))





Interestingly, the highest E-M293 frequency and Y-STR diversity has been observed among the Datoog, a Southern-Nilotic speaking population:


"...the Tanzanian Datog population has both the highest haplogroup E3b1f-M293 frequency (43%) and Y-STR diversity (Table 1) of any group surveyed. The Datog are pastoralists who speak a Southern Nilotic language." (Henn, 2008 (https://www.pnas.org/content/105/31/10693))


*Despite this taken into account, Y-DNA and linguistic affiliation needn't always correlate, especially within a broad time-scale and region as anthropologically complex as East-Africa -- the bigger call-out here would be the internal Y-STR diversity




A region within the Middle-Nile Basin (modern Sudan) would be more appropriate: the eastern Middle-Nile Basin south of the Abbai River, which would be south-east of present-day Khartoum, is considered the urhermiat of Nilotic speakers.

The Levant_PPNC affinities (https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?18428-PCA-G25_scaled-Africans-only-(Users-amp-Ancients-Modern-Avgs)&p=613126&viewfull=1#post613126)observed in modern North-African pops, and minor non-negligible %s observed in modern/aDNA samples of Southern-Nilotic ancestry, gives the impression that the Southern-Nilotic branch of Nilotic speakers might've been situated in the northern-sphere of the afmd urhermiat.



This might reflect the ancestral North-African Bos-Taurus breed of Ankole-Watusi being introduced to Middle-Nile valley Nilotic-speakers from where it spread across Central-East and Southern-Africa:

https://i.imgur.com/PF0wVZ4.png
Fig.1 (Okeyo et al., 2015 (https://www.researchgate.net/publication/279222258_-_Invited_Review_-_African_Indigenous_Cattle_Unique_Genetic_Resource s_in_a_Rapidly_Changing_World))




The proto Western-Nilotic branch of Nilotic speakers (Dinka, Nuer, Anuak, Acholi, Luo..) are believed to have been situated further west in Bahr el Ghazal; the main western tributary of the Nile. This group of River-Lake Nilotes have experienced a *relatively recent regional expansion, giving them a significant proportion of the present-day South-Sudanese population (Dinka (38.8%), Nuer people (27.6%).. ) despite there being a wider-diversity of nearly 60 ethnic-groups who've had an altering sway on South-Sudanese demography: some of these groups include Baggara Arabs, Central-Sudanic Speakers (Bari, Madi..) with the longest hegemony, fairly recent Eastern-Nilotic speakers (>17th century Bari, Mandari), Non-Nilotic Azande, and even modern Fulani to name a few -- that's to say, the demography of South-Sudan shouldn't be considered static, the distribution for many of these pastoral-groups have changed quite drastically throughout antiquity.


Ultimately of course, further sampling from the neolithic onward along with more representation of regional ethnic-groups (the Horn, North/South-Sudan) will clarify E-M293.

Based on what is available, I beleive this mutation may have occured in Eritrea/Northern Ethiopia (some eritreans reported having relatives on 23andme with E-M293 on anthrogenica), there is also 1 Kuweit guy with E-M293? But the most diversirty will obviously be found not only among Kenya, Tanzania and Great lakes pastoralists, but I suspect the South Cushites may have the highest diversity. Also, Hirbo et Al study had a larger sample of 47 Iraqw with 51% E-M293(highest among sampled groups), 2% E-V22, E-V12(XV32), and some T. In the most recent PNs study, E-M293 was predominent among PNs sample.


Regarding the Levant_PPNC, no evidence this affinity exists in South Sudanese. I am not familiar with Nubians, Eritrea nilosaharians, but my guess will be this PPNC, the
South Cushites ancestors(Elmolo, Fiome, Burunge, Iraqw) may have picked up this PPNC in Eritrea from nilosaharians speakers if this PPNC is proven to be from nilosaharians speakers.

drobbah
12-24-2019, 12:14 AM
The closest lineage to E-M293 is E-Z1267 (5 ky tmrca): considering pastoralist ancestry hadn't fully colonized the Horn in this time-period (ETH_4500BP HG), along with the general lack of detection in Horner pops, a broader northern east-african region might be more appropriate for this lineage's north-to-south expansion...


"We propose that the migration marked by the E-M293 haplogroup could be the final step of a north-to-south range expansion linked to different branches of E-V1515, which initially involved people from Eritrea (and possibly northern Sudan, not sampled here)". (Trombetta, 2015 (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4524485/))





Interestingly, the highest E-M293 frequency and Y-STR diversity has been observed among the Datoog, a Southern-Nilotic speaking population:


"...the Tanzanian Datog population has both the highest haplogroup E3b1f-M293 frequency (43%) and Y-STR diversity (Table 1) of any group surveyed. The Datog are pastoralists who speak a Southern Nilotic language." (Henn, 2008 (https://www.pnas.org/content/105/31/10693))


*Despite this taken into account, Y-DNA and linguistic affiliation needn't always correlate, especially within a broad time-scale and region as anthropologically complex as East-Africa -- the bigger call-out here would be the internal Y-STR diversity




A region within the Middle-Nile Basin (modern Sudan) would be more appropriate: the eastern Middle-Nile Basin south of the Abbai River, which would be south-east of present-day Khartoum, is considered the urhermiat of Nilotic speakers.

The Levant_PPNC affinities (https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?18428-PCA-G25_scaled-Africans-only-(Users-amp-Ancients-Modern-Avgs)&p=613126&viewfull=1#post613126)observed in modern North-African pops, and minor non-negligible %s observed in modern/aDNA samples of Southern-Nilotic ancestry, gives the impression that the Southern-Nilotic branch of Nilotic speakers might've been situated in the northern-sphere of the afmd urhermiat.



This might reflect the ancestral North-African Bos-Taurus breed of Ankole-Watusi being introduced to Middle-Nile valley Nilotic-speakers from where it spread across Central-East and Southern-Africa:

https://i.imgur.com/PF0wVZ4.png
Fig.1 (Okeyo et al., 2015 (https://www.researchgate.net/publication/279222258_-_Invited_Review_-_African_Indigenous_Cattle_Unique_Genetic_Resource s_in_a_Rapidly_Changing_World))




The proto Western-Nilotic branch of Nilotic speakers (Dinka, Nuer, Anuak, Acholi, Luo..) are believed to have been situated further west in Bahr el Ghazal; the main western tributary of the Nile. This group of River-Lake Nilotes have experienced a *relatively recent regional expansion, giving them a significant proportion of the present-day South-Sudanese population (Dinka (38.8%), Nuer people (27.6%).. ) despite there being a wider-diversity of nearly 60 ethnic-groups who've had an altering sway on South-Sudanese demography: some of these groups include Baggara Arabs, Central-Sudanic Speakers (Bari, Madi..) with the longest hegemony, fairly recent Eastern-Nilotic speakers (>17th century Bari, Mandari), Non-Nilotic Azande, and even modern Fulani to name a few -- that's to say, the demography of South-Sudan shouldn't be considered static, the distribution for many of these pastoral-groups have changed quite drastically throughout antiquity.


Ultimately of course, further sampling from the neolithic onward along with more representation of regional ethnic-groups (the Horn, North/South-Sudan) will clarify E-M293.

The Datoog from what I've read are neighbors of the Iraqw and heavily intermixed with them

Angoliga
12-24-2019, 12:44 AM
Based on what is available, I beleive this mutation may have occured in Eritrea/Northern Ethiopia (some eritreans reported having relatives on 23andme with E-M293 on anthrogenica), there is also 1 Kuweit guy with E-M293? But the most diversirty will obviously be found not only among Kenya, Tanzania and Great lakes pastoralists, but I suspect the South Cushites may have the highest diversity. Also, Hirbo et Al study had a larger sample of 47 Iraqw with 51% E-M293(highest among sampled groups), 2% E-V22, E-V12(XV32), and some T. In the most recent PNs study, E-M293 was predominent among PNs sample.

No need to interject with personal-suspicions here, the data is quite clear in this regard:


"...the Tanzanian Datog population has both the highest haplogroup E3b1f-M293 frequency (43%) and Y-STR diversity (Table 1) of any group surveyed. The Datog are pastoralists who speak a Southern Nilotic language." (Henn, 2008 (https://www.pnas.org/content/105/31/10693))



Regarding the Levant_PPNC, no evidence this affinity exists in South Sudanese. I am not familiar with Nubians, Eritrea nilosaharians, but my guess will be this PPNC, the
South Cushites ancestors(Elmolo, Fiome, Burunge, Iraqw) may have picked up this PPNC in Eritrea from nilosaharians speakers if this PPNC is proven to be from nilosaharians speakers.



If Levant_PPNC wasn't embedded in these Sudanese migrations (Prendergast, 2019), then why do we have instances of sizable Levant_PPNC without South-Cushitic affinities (KEN_Pastoral_N/ETH_4500BP or Natufian)?

https://i.imgur.com/uRxvL07.png

Target and Source Samples provided:
Target: KEN_IA_Deloraine:I8802,-0.537245,0.067025,0.013953,-0.00969,0.001846,-0.00502,-0.01034,0.014538,0.022089,-0.037176,-0.006658,0.008393,-0.033003,-0.009221,-0.024565,0.017237,-0.009648,0.002407,-0.010684,0.006003,0.003494,0.003215,0.004314,0.001 084,0.000838

Source Samples:

KEN_LSA,-0.522448,0.044683,-0.010936,0.006137,0.004308,-0.006414,0.085309,-0.06692,0.076287,-0.06925,-0.011367,0.010491,-0.033003,0.000138,0.00855,-0.014983,0.021383,0.038513,-0.002137,-0.005253,-0.007612,-0.002968,0.002342,0.004699,-0.000718
ETH_4500BP,-0.511066,0.043668,0.000754,0.000969,-0.00277,-0.011435,0.050997,-0.045229,0.089172,-0.087838,-0.012991,-0.002997,-0.031219,0.000688,0.02158,-0.029965,0.027772,0.039273,0.00176,-0.009004,0.000374,0.006183,-0.003451,-0.00241,-0.000838
KEN_Pastoral_N,-0.3004929,0.0954598,-0.0263607,-0.0737732,0.0007384,-0.0365346,-0.0094944,-0.0014769,0.1220598,-0.0880928,-0.0057811,-0.0097713,-0.0017243,-0.0018993,0.0229232,-0.0209888,0.0222697,-0.0004942,0.0076929,-0.0014882,0.0019467,0.00298,-0.0040671,-0.0013375,-0.0010058
Levant_JOR_EBA,0.0758823,0.147929,-0.0599623,-0.11402,-0.0056417,-0.0476903,-0.0108887,-0.013307,0.0336783,0.0075323,0.0157517,-0.0196823,0.041526,-0.0008717,-0.0031217,0.0228937,0.0018253,0.0010137,-0.0030583,0.0170917,0.0050743,0.011706,-0.0038617,0.0042577,-0.0071053
Levant_PPNB,0.072847,0.1639064,-0.0316026,-0.1361132,0.0332986,-0.0645352,-0.0134426,-0.0147684,0.0741604,0.03601,0.0188046,-0.0150764,0.035738,0.0025596,-0.0217696,0.006099,0.0098048,-0.0013176,-0.0047264,0.0188088,-0.001797,0.0071472,0.0008872,-0.0056874,-0.0037602
Levant_PPNC,0.067156,0.168578,-0.023004,-0.150842,0.028621,-0.071954,-0.013866,-0.017999,0.077719,0.037905,0.006496,-0.013188,0.032705,-0.000275,-0.014929,0.008486,-0.000913,-0.007728,-0.013575,0.012381,-0.009982,0.01014,0.002958,0.003012,-0.001916
CHN_Tianyuan,-0.027318,-0.260991,-0.075424,0.071383,0.033545,-0.018407,-0.00799,-0.003,0.040291,0.021322,-0.006333,-0.005995,-0.003568,-0.00523,-0.000407,-0.000663,0.008084,0.002407,-0.001131,0.027263,-0.001747,0.008037,-0.008874,-0.010845,0.011256
Yamnaya_UKR,0.119514,0.088351,0.044123,0.110144,-0.032006,0.038487,0.00799,0.002308,-0.05788,-0.076721,-0.002761,-0.002398,0.000743,-0.021056,0.033387,0.01485,0.004955,-0.008235,-0.002263,0.015007,0.002121,0.003462,0.002958,0.023 256,0.002874
Anatolia_Barcin_N,0.1175998,0.180118,0.0035312,-0.101158,0.0510443,-0.0483875,-0.0043582,-0.0069334,0.0362287,0.0807473,0.0079718,0.0118803,-0.0234545,0.0004691,-0.0419807,-0.0101913,0.0233091,0.0019866,0.0136954,-0.0097489,-0.0142249,0.0057723,-0.0041232,-0.0031658,-0.0043437
Levant_Natufian,0.020488,0.1431895,-0.0377125,-0.1387295,0.030775,-0.079484,-0.025616,-0.0175375,0.114329,0.002005,0.0332085,-0.0222555,0.076486,0.002133,0.0153365,0.009016,-0.0154505,-0.001014,-0.02206,0.040832,0.001497,0.0001235,-0.003636,-0.0044585,0.006287
Yoruba,-0.6300625,0.0625011,0.022113,0.0167079,0.0005035,0 .0124741,-0.044417,0.0477673,-0.0488813,0.0327694,0.0046205,0.0007904,0.0230561, 0.0009509,0.0125232,-0.0096067,0.0070763,0.0004491,0.006022,-0.00299,0.0015542,0.0023156,-0.0017592,-0.0004711,-0.0004246
Dinka,-0.577083,0.0507765,-0.0003773,-0.0075098,-0.0053855,-0.0016735,-0.0176848,0.0204222,0.081145,-0.0969495,-0.02107,0.022742,-0.0383172,-0.0011698,0.0101452,-0.021347,0.0186125,-0.0094382,0.0241968,-0.0241678,0.002402,0.003308,0.001479,0.0009038,0.0 096995
Ju_hoan_North,-0.616466,0.0601194,0.0211942,0.028424,0.0025852,-0.0038486,0.2541404,-0.199192,0.0240112,0.007909,0.0032478,-0.0723558,-0.0255104,0.00867,0.0283928,-0.0321662,0.0461558,0.4102178,-0.1364076,0.003877,-0.0556018,-0.0051686,0.0126206,-0.0044826,0.0028978
Mbuti,-0.6493608,0.0578852,0.0250785,0.038437,-0.001077,0.0054385,0.3631505,-0.291911,0.0193278,0.0323013,-0.0090938,0.2169692,0.1242805,3.45E-05,0.0080072,0.0017568,0.000717,-0.049567,0.015901,0.004471,0.0049288,-0.0020402,-0.002465,0.0057838,0.000389
IRN_Wezmeh_N,0.037562,0.072103,-0.165556,-0.016473,-0.11756,0.01506,0.017861,-0.003231,-0.071583,-0.046835,0.003085,-0.003147,0.00669,0.000688,0.022122,0.053036,-0.011735,0.001014,0.014581,-0.035267,0.009358,-0.023741,-0.006655,-0.032896,0.019998
IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N,0.0455292,0.0660095,-0.1518855,0.0026648,-0.1250232,0.0204982,0.0170972,-0.0017305,-0.0814005,-0.0579968,0.0004465,-0.001611,0.0072845,-0.0087735,0.0294512,0.0567152,-0.005248,0.0084882,0.007259,-0.037018,0.0075492,-0.0286258,-0.010322,-0.0404578,0.0265842
ITA_Villabruna,0.121791,0.114755,0.18592,0.184111, 0.156337,0.060798,0.020211,0.035998,0.092445,0.018 041,-0.016239,-0.016186,0.016947,-0.010046,0.054017,0.067356,0.000782,0.005448,-0.008422,0.053526,0.100073,0.010758,-0.048313,-0.163517,0.01928
GEO_CHG,0.091058,0.102568,-0.083344,-0.00323,-0.08617,0.020638,0.024911,-0.001846,-0.128236,-0.074717,-0.006333,0.023979,-0.054856,0.004404,0.026601,-0.03275,0.02386,-0.013429,-0.022249,0.034767,0.033815,-0.007048,0.006532,-0.025787,-0.002036
MAR_LN,0.021626,0.148267,0.003394,-0.095285,0.047393,-0.054384,-0.027731,0.008769,0.083855,0.054124,0.020136,0.001 798,0.002973,-0.028901,0.004343,0.009944,0.032726,-0.014062,-0.033938,-5.00E-04,-0.018343,-0.02201,0.011709,-0.009881,-0.004191
MAR_EN,-0.1735805,0.0919055,-0.0258325,-0.083657,0.0283125,-0.0596825,-0.079316,0.021461,0.1500185,0.0043735,0.0222475,-0.0264515,0.075148,-0.0461725,0.069353,-0.03381,0.0171455,-0.05549,-0.1487635,0.0340785,-0.038245,-0.118212,0.0826995,-0.009941,0.021615
MAR_Iberomaurusian,-0.189857,0.0814452,-0.0242866,-0.085595,0.027636,-0.0552202,-0.0705968,0.0184146,0.155397,0.003499,0.0209156,-0.0318316,0.0747168,-0.0513334,0.0711988,-0.0363032,0.0052676,-0.066106,-0.1424162,0.0389938,-0.0376836,-0.1255322,0.0730118,-0.0137606,0.0164534

https://i.imgur.com/bPePhg5.png
Target:
UG Hima_scaled,-0.451878,0.080227,-0.001886,-0.037145,0.006155,-0.015339,-0.003055,0.005538,0.058085,-0.047199,-0.010555,0.005095,-0.015163,0.001376,0.004343,-0.004773,0.00326,0.00152,-0.000754,0.008879,0.003619,-0.002968,0.000739,-0.004579,0.004191



**In the spoiler above, notice the modern UG_Hima pastoralist with Levant_PPNC (10.6%) and without any KEN_Pastoral_N/ETH_4500BP:

If these Sudanese migrations came via the Horn directly, how were they able to circumvent KEN_Pastoral_N/ETH_4500BP affinities which are embedded in Cushitic-speaking pops? These migrations had to have come via the upper-nile basin (South-Sudan) or the extreme southwestern-edge of the Ethiopian-highlands -- there's simply no other explanation.

Some of these Sudanese-pastoral groups would later admix with Erythraean-pastoralists in the Rift-Valley, it doesn't look to be the case for this particular UG_Hima pastoralist but we see clear evidence in most of the other Tutsi-related samples judging by their KEN_Pastoral_N-affinity.

drobbah
12-24-2019, 01:40 AM
The high Datoog E-M293 frequency can simply be a founder effect similiar to the high V32 found in groups like the Fur and Masalit some of which carry E-V32 at 73%

Alfa
12-24-2019, 01:52 AM
The high Datoog E-M293 frequency can simply be a founder effect similiar to the high V32 found in groups like the Fur and Masalit some of which carry E-V32 at 73%

The highest frequency of E-M293 is 51% in 47 Iraqws(Hirbo et Al).

The Datog lives in same region with Iraqws and there are a lot of intermarriage between Iraqw/Datogs. It makes sense.

Alfa
12-24-2019, 02:33 AM
No need to interject with personal-suspicions here, the data is quite clear in this regard:


"...the Tanzanian Datog population has both the highest haplogroup E3b1f-M293 frequency (43%) and Y-STR diversity (Table 1) of any group surveyed. The Datog are pastoralists who speak a Southern Nilotic language." (Henn, 2008 (https://www.pnas.org/content/105/31/10693))






If Levant_PPNC wasn't embedded in these Sudanese migrations (Prendergast, 2019), then why do we have instances of sizable Levant_PPNC without South-Cushitic affinities (KEN_Pastoral_N/ETH_4500BP or Natufian)?

https://i.imgur.com/uRxvL07.png

Target and Source Samples provided:
Target: KEN_IA_Deloraine:I8802,-0.537245,0.067025,0.013953,-0.00969,0.001846,-0.00502,-0.01034,0.014538,0.022089,-0.037176,-0.006658,0.008393,-0.033003,-0.009221,-0.024565,0.017237,-0.009648,0.002407,-0.010684,0.006003,0.003494,0.003215,0.004314,0.001 084,0.000838

Source Samples:

KEN_LSA,-0.522448,0.044683,-0.010936,0.006137,0.004308,-0.006414,0.085309,-0.06692,0.076287,-0.06925,-0.011367,0.010491,-0.033003,0.000138,0.00855,-0.014983,0.021383,0.038513,-0.002137,-0.005253,-0.007612,-0.002968,0.002342,0.004699,-0.000718
ETH_4500BP,-0.511066,0.043668,0.000754,0.000969,-0.00277,-0.011435,0.050997,-0.045229,0.089172,-0.087838,-0.012991,-0.002997,-0.031219,0.000688,0.02158,-0.029965,0.027772,0.039273,0.00176,-0.009004,0.000374,0.006183,-0.003451,-0.00241,-0.000838
KEN_Pastoral_N,-0.3004929,0.0954598,-0.0263607,-0.0737732,0.0007384,-0.0365346,-0.0094944,-0.0014769,0.1220598,-0.0880928,-0.0057811,-0.0097713,-0.0017243,-0.0018993,0.0229232,-0.0209888,0.0222697,-0.0004942,0.0076929,-0.0014882,0.0019467,0.00298,-0.0040671,-0.0013375,-0.0010058
Levant_JOR_EBA,0.0758823,0.147929,-0.0599623,-0.11402,-0.0056417,-0.0476903,-0.0108887,-0.013307,0.0336783,0.0075323,0.0157517,-0.0196823,0.041526,-0.0008717,-0.0031217,0.0228937,0.0018253,0.0010137,-0.0030583,0.0170917,0.0050743,0.011706,-0.0038617,0.0042577,-0.0071053
Levant_PPNB,0.072847,0.1639064,-0.0316026,-0.1361132,0.0332986,-0.0645352,-0.0134426,-0.0147684,0.0741604,0.03601,0.0188046,-0.0150764,0.035738,0.0025596,-0.0217696,0.006099,0.0098048,-0.0013176,-0.0047264,0.0188088,-0.001797,0.0071472,0.0008872,-0.0056874,-0.0037602
Levant_PPNC,0.067156,0.168578,-0.023004,-0.150842,0.028621,-0.071954,-0.013866,-0.017999,0.077719,0.037905,0.006496,-0.013188,0.032705,-0.000275,-0.014929,0.008486,-0.000913,-0.007728,-0.013575,0.012381,-0.009982,0.01014,0.002958,0.003012,-0.001916
CHN_Tianyuan,-0.027318,-0.260991,-0.075424,0.071383,0.033545,-0.018407,-0.00799,-0.003,0.040291,0.021322,-0.006333,-0.005995,-0.003568,-0.00523,-0.000407,-0.000663,0.008084,0.002407,-0.001131,0.027263,-0.001747,0.008037,-0.008874,-0.010845,0.011256
Yamnaya_UKR,0.119514,0.088351,0.044123,0.110144,-0.032006,0.038487,0.00799,0.002308,-0.05788,-0.076721,-0.002761,-0.002398,0.000743,-0.021056,0.033387,0.01485,0.004955,-0.008235,-0.002263,0.015007,0.002121,0.003462,0.002958,0.023 256,0.002874
Anatolia_Barcin_N,0.1175998,0.180118,0.0035312,-0.101158,0.0510443,-0.0483875,-0.0043582,-0.0069334,0.0362287,0.0807473,0.0079718,0.0118803,-0.0234545,0.0004691,-0.0419807,-0.0101913,0.0233091,0.0019866,0.0136954,-0.0097489,-0.0142249,0.0057723,-0.0041232,-0.0031658,-0.0043437
Levant_Natufian,0.020488,0.1431895,-0.0377125,-0.1387295,0.030775,-0.079484,-0.025616,-0.0175375,0.114329,0.002005,0.0332085,-0.0222555,0.076486,0.002133,0.0153365,0.009016,-0.0154505,-0.001014,-0.02206,0.040832,0.001497,0.0001235,-0.003636,-0.0044585,0.006287
Yoruba,-0.6300625,0.0625011,0.022113,0.0167079,0.0005035,0 .0124741,-0.044417,0.0477673,-0.0488813,0.0327694,0.0046205,0.0007904,0.0230561, 0.0009509,0.0125232,-0.0096067,0.0070763,0.0004491,0.006022,-0.00299,0.0015542,0.0023156,-0.0017592,-0.0004711,-0.0004246
Dinka,-0.577083,0.0507765,-0.0003773,-0.0075098,-0.0053855,-0.0016735,-0.0176848,0.0204222,0.081145,-0.0969495,-0.02107,0.022742,-0.0383172,-0.0011698,0.0101452,-0.021347,0.0186125,-0.0094382,0.0241968,-0.0241678,0.002402,0.003308,0.001479,0.0009038,0.0 096995
Ju_hoan_North,-0.616466,0.0601194,0.0211942,0.028424,0.0025852,-0.0038486,0.2541404,-0.199192,0.0240112,0.007909,0.0032478,-0.0723558,-0.0255104,0.00867,0.0283928,-0.0321662,0.0461558,0.4102178,-0.1364076,0.003877,-0.0556018,-0.0051686,0.0126206,-0.0044826,0.0028978
Mbuti,-0.6493608,0.0578852,0.0250785,0.038437,-0.001077,0.0054385,0.3631505,-0.291911,0.0193278,0.0323013,-0.0090938,0.2169692,0.1242805,3.45E-05,0.0080072,0.0017568,0.000717,-0.049567,0.015901,0.004471,0.0049288,-0.0020402,-0.002465,0.0057838,0.000389
IRN_Wezmeh_N,0.037562,0.072103,-0.165556,-0.016473,-0.11756,0.01506,0.017861,-0.003231,-0.071583,-0.046835,0.003085,-0.003147,0.00669,0.000688,0.022122,0.053036,-0.011735,0.001014,0.014581,-0.035267,0.009358,-0.023741,-0.006655,-0.032896,0.019998
IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N,0.0455292,0.0660095,-0.1518855,0.0026648,-0.1250232,0.0204982,0.0170972,-0.0017305,-0.0814005,-0.0579968,0.0004465,-0.001611,0.0072845,-0.0087735,0.0294512,0.0567152,-0.005248,0.0084882,0.007259,-0.037018,0.0075492,-0.0286258,-0.010322,-0.0404578,0.0265842
ITA_Villabruna,0.121791,0.114755,0.18592,0.184111, 0.156337,0.060798,0.020211,0.035998,0.092445,0.018 041,-0.016239,-0.016186,0.016947,-0.010046,0.054017,0.067356,0.000782,0.005448,-0.008422,0.053526,0.100073,0.010758,-0.048313,-0.163517,0.01928
GEO_CHG,0.091058,0.102568,-0.083344,-0.00323,-0.08617,0.020638,0.024911,-0.001846,-0.128236,-0.074717,-0.006333,0.023979,-0.054856,0.004404,0.026601,-0.03275,0.02386,-0.013429,-0.022249,0.034767,0.033815,-0.007048,0.006532,-0.025787,-0.002036
MAR_LN,0.021626,0.148267,0.003394,-0.095285,0.047393,-0.054384,-0.027731,0.008769,0.083855,0.054124,0.020136,0.001 798,0.002973,-0.028901,0.004343,0.009944,0.032726,-0.014062,-0.033938,-5.00E-04,-0.018343,-0.02201,0.011709,-0.009881,-0.004191
MAR_EN,-0.1735805,0.0919055,-0.0258325,-0.083657,0.0283125,-0.0596825,-0.079316,0.021461,0.1500185,0.0043735,0.0222475,-0.0264515,0.075148,-0.0461725,0.069353,-0.03381,0.0171455,-0.05549,-0.1487635,0.0340785,-0.038245,-0.118212,0.0826995,-0.009941,0.021615
MAR_Iberomaurusian,-0.189857,0.0814452,-0.0242866,-0.085595,0.027636,-0.0552202,-0.0705968,0.0184146,0.155397,0.003499,0.0209156,-0.0318316,0.0747168,-0.0513334,0.0711988,-0.0363032,0.0052676,-0.066106,-0.1424162,0.0389938,-0.0376836,-0.1255322,0.0730118,-0.0137606,0.0164534

https://i.imgur.com/bPePhg5.png
Target:
UG Hima_scaled,-0.451878,0.080227,-0.001886,-0.037145,0.006155,-0.015339,-0.003055,0.005538,0.058085,-0.047199,-0.010555,0.005095,-0.015163,0.001376,0.004343,-0.004773,0.00326,0.00152,-0.000754,0.008879,0.003619,-0.002968,0.000739,-0.004579,0.004191



**In the spoiler above, notice the modern UG_Hima pastoralist with Levant_PPNC (10.6%) and without any KEN_Pastoral_N/ETH_4500BP:

If these Sudanese migrations came via the Horn directly, how were they able to circumvent KEN_Pastoral_N/ETH_4500BP affinities which are embedded in Cushitic-speaking pops? These migrations had to have come via the upper-nile basin (South-Sudan) or the extreme southwestern-edge of the Ethiopian-highlands -- there's simply no other explanation.

Some of these Sudanese-pastoral groups would later admix with Erythraean-pastoralists in the Rift-Valley, it doesn't look to be the case for this particular UG_Hima pastoralist but we see clear evidence in most of the other Tutsi-related samples judging by their KEN_Pastoral_N-affinity.

It is possible that this PPNC may be from South Nilotes speakers, but there is no evidence of PPNC in South Sudan. Hopefully, future studies will clarify this.

Regarding the Ugand_Hima (who I just found out he is also E-M293), there seems to be different results based on reference sample used. When I used all those PNs in G25 like: KEN_PN, KEN_Early_Pastoral_N, KEN_N_Elmenteitan,TZA_Luxmanda_3100BP, TZ_PN, TZ_PN_0 alongside PPNC and other Levants ref, our PPNC does disappear/decrease significantly for most of us. In this run, the average PPNC for Tutsi/Hima from Rwanda/RDC(excluding Burundians who strangely have higher Nilotic than Rwandans, further verification needed) Averaged PPNC was 0.7



Target: UG_Hima
Distance: 0.017551

37.0 TZA_Pemba
16.2 Dinka
15.0 TZA_PN
11.0 KEN_Pastoral_N_Elmenteitan
8.6 TZ_PN_0
5.6 KEN_LSA
4.8 Levant_PPNC
1.8 MAR_Iberomaurisian and the rest is very negligible.

In this run Tutsi/Hima I used, they averaged ~40% PNs, so this Ug_Hima is like us. Most likely scenario, Sudanese Pastoralists mixing with Erythraen_pastoralists in the Rift_Valley.

Chad Rohlfsen
12-24-2019, 02:43 AM
There is Levantine and Iberomaurusian admixture in the South Sudanese. Dstats make it pretty obvious.

Angoliga
12-24-2019, 08:18 PM
The high Datoog E-M293 frequency can simply be a founder effect similiar to the high V32 found in groups like the Fur and Masalit some of which carry E-V32 at 73%

A founder effect would result in loss of genetic variation, not an increase.

The afmd higher Y-STR diversity found in Datooga (Henn, 2008) speaks to deeper on-going relations between S/E-Cushitic and Sudanese-derived pastoralists in the Rift-Valley.



It is possible that this PPNC may be from South Nilotes speakers, but there is no evidence of PPNC in South Sudan.


What other logical outcome could be derived from the data? It's clearly illustrated with the KEN_IA_Deloraine sample:

https://i.imgur.com/Co45OAN.png


(previously posted here (https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?18428-PCA-G25_scaled-Africans-only-(Users-amp-Ancients-Modern-Avgs)&p=613126&viewfull=1#post613126) with more details, and references from Prendergast et al, 2019)

These northern Levant_PPNC affinities couldn't have come from Bantu/West-African (Yoruba) or indigenous forager ancestry(KEN_LSA), and the lack of Natufian/ETH_4500BP clearly demonstrates it's not derived from Horner migrations.

Unless we consider the possibility of Iron-Age teleportation technology, a route between the upper Nile-Valley and extreme Western-Ethiopian highlands would be the most parsimonious explanation.

drobbah
12-24-2019, 08:50 PM
I think the only reason the Datoog have a higher frequency of E-M293 is because the Iraqw absorbed large amounts of non-cushitic males.Also, it seems the Iraqw are also quite knowledgeable that many Iraqw are not of original Iraqw stock since out of the 200 Iraqw clans, only three claim to be of original Iraqw stock.

As for the Levant PPNC, I do agree with Angoliga that it is highly probable that it arrived with the Sudanese migrations.I just don't see them carrying substantial E-M293 the way many Southern Cushitic groups and their admixed descendants do today.

Espoir
12-25-2019, 04:56 AM
No need to interject with personal-suspicions here, the data is quite clear in this regard:


"...the Tanzanian Datog population has both the highest haplogroup E3b1f-M293 frequency (43%) and Y-STR diversity (Table 1) of any group surveyed. The Datog are pastoralists who speak a Southern Nilotic language." (Henn, 2008 (https://www.pnas.org/content/105/31/10693))






If Levant_PPNC wasn't embedded in these Sudanese migrations (Prendergast, 2019), then why do we have instances of sizable Levant_PPNC without South-Cushitic affinities (KEN_Pastoral_N/ETH_4500BP or Natufian)?

https://i.imgur.com/uRxvL07.png

Target and Source Samples provided:
Target: KEN_IA_Deloraine:I8802,-0.537245,0.067025,0.013953,-0.00969,0.001846,-0.00502,-0.01034,0.014538,0.022089,-0.037176,-0.006658,0.008393,-0.033003,-0.009221,-0.024565,0.017237,-0.009648,0.002407,-0.010684,0.006003,0.003494,0.003215,0.004314,0.001 084,0.000838

Source Samples:

KEN_LSA,-0.522448,0.044683,-0.010936,0.006137,0.004308,-0.006414,0.085309,-0.06692,0.076287,-0.06925,-0.011367,0.010491,-0.033003,0.000138,0.00855,-0.014983,0.021383,0.038513,-0.002137,-0.005253,-0.007612,-0.002968,0.002342,0.004699,-0.000718
ETH_4500BP,-0.511066,0.043668,0.000754,0.000969,-0.00277,-0.011435,0.050997,-0.045229,0.089172,-0.087838,-0.012991,-0.002997,-0.031219,0.000688,0.02158,-0.029965,0.027772,0.039273,0.00176,-0.009004,0.000374,0.006183,-0.003451,-0.00241,-0.000838
KEN_Pastoral_N,-0.3004929,0.0954598,-0.0263607,-0.0737732,0.0007384,-0.0365346,-0.0094944,-0.0014769,0.1220598,-0.0880928,-0.0057811,-0.0097713,-0.0017243,-0.0018993,0.0229232,-0.0209888,0.0222697,-0.0004942,0.0076929,-0.0014882,0.0019467,0.00298,-0.0040671,-0.0013375,-0.0010058
Levant_JOR_EBA,0.0758823,0.147929,-0.0599623,-0.11402,-0.0056417,-0.0476903,-0.0108887,-0.013307,0.0336783,0.0075323,0.0157517,-0.0196823,0.041526,-0.0008717,-0.0031217,0.0228937,0.0018253,0.0010137,-0.0030583,0.0170917,0.0050743,0.011706,-0.0038617,0.0042577,-0.0071053
Levant_PPNB,0.072847,0.1639064,-0.0316026,-0.1361132,0.0332986,-0.0645352,-0.0134426,-0.0147684,0.0741604,0.03601,0.0188046,-0.0150764,0.035738,0.0025596,-0.0217696,0.006099,0.0098048,-0.0013176,-0.0047264,0.0188088,-0.001797,0.0071472,0.0008872,-0.0056874,-0.0037602
Levant_PPNC,0.067156,0.168578,-0.023004,-0.150842,0.028621,-0.071954,-0.013866,-0.017999,0.077719,0.037905,0.006496,-0.013188,0.032705,-0.000275,-0.014929,0.008486,-0.000913,-0.007728,-0.013575,0.012381,-0.009982,0.01014,0.002958,0.003012,-0.001916
CHN_Tianyuan,-0.027318,-0.260991,-0.075424,0.071383,0.033545,-0.018407,-0.00799,-0.003,0.040291,0.021322,-0.006333,-0.005995,-0.003568,-0.00523,-0.000407,-0.000663,0.008084,0.002407,-0.001131,0.027263,-0.001747,0.008037,-0.008874,-0.010845,0.011256
Yamnaya_UKR,0.119514,0.088351,0.044123,0.110144,-0.032006,0.038487,0.00799,0.002308,-0.05788,-0.076721,-0.002761,-0.002398,0.000743,-0.021056,0.033387,0.01485,0.004955,-0.008235,-0.002263,0.015007,0.002121,0.003462,0.002958,0.023 256,0.002874
Anatolia_Barcin_N,0.1175998,0.180118,0.0035312,-0.101158,0.0510443,-0.0483875,-0.0043582,-0.0069334,0.0362287,0.0807473,0.0079718,0.0118803,-0.0234545,0.0004691,-0.0419807,-0.0101913,0.0233091,0.0019866,0.0136954,-0.0097489,-0.0142249,0.0057723,-0.0041232,-0.0031658,-0.0043437
Levant_Natufian,0.020488,0.1431895,-0.0377125,-0.1387295,0.030775,-0.079484,-0.025616,-0.0175375,0.114329,0.002005,0.0332085,-0.0222555,0.076486,0.002133,0.0153365,0.009016,-0.0154505,-0.001014,-0.02206,0.040832,0.001497,0.0001235,-0.003636,-0.0044585,0.006287
Yoruba,-0.6300625,0.0625011,0.022113,0.0167079,0.0005035,0 .0124741,-0.044417,0.0477673,-0.0488813,0.0327694,0.0046205,0.0007904,0.0230561, 0.0009509,0.0125232,-0.0096067,0.0070763,0.0004491,0.006022,-0.00299,0.0015542,0.0023156,-0.0017592,-0.0004711,-0.0004246
Dinka,-0.577083,0.0507765,-0.0003773,-0.0075098,-0.0053855,-0.0016735,-0.0176848,0.0204222,0.081145,-0.0969495,-0.02107,0.022742,-0.0383172,-0.0011698,0.0101452,-0.021347,0.0186125,-0.0094382,0.0241968,-0.0241678,0.002402,0.003308,0.001479,0.0009038,0.0 096995
Ju_hoan_North,-0.616466,0.0601194,0.0211942,0.028424,0.0025852,-0.0038486,0.2541404,-0.199192,0.0240112,0.007909,0.0032478,-0.0723558,-0.0255104,0.00867,0.0283928,-0.0321662,0.0461558,0.4102178,-0.1364076,0.003877,-0.0556018,-0.0051686,0.0126206,-0.0044826,0.0028978
Mbuti,-0.6493608,0.0578852,0.0250785,0.038437,-0.001077,0.0054385,0.3631505,-0.291911,0.0193278,0.0323013,-0.0090938,0.2169692,0.1242805,3.45E-05,0.0080072,0.0017568,0.000717,-0.049567,0.015901,0.004471,0.0049288,-0.0020402,-0.002465,0.0057838,0.000389
IRN_Wezmeh_N,0.037562,0.072103,-0.165556,-0.016473,-0.11756,0.01506,0.017861,-0.003231,-0.071583,-0.046835,0.003085,-0.003147,0.00669,0.000688,0.022122,0.053036,-0.011735,0.001014,0.014581,-0.035267,0.009358,-0.023741,-0.006655,-0.032896,0.019998
IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N,0.0455292,0.0660095,-0.1518855,0.0026648,-0.1250232,0.0204982,0.0170972,-0.0017305,-0.0814005,-0.0579968,0.0004465,-0.001611,0.0072845,-0.0087735,0.0294512,0.0567152,-0.005248,0.0084882,0.007259,-0.037018,0.0075492,-0.0286258,-0.010322,-0.0404578,0.0265842
ITA_Villabruna,0.121791,0.114755,0.18592,0.184111, 0.156337,0.060798,0.020211,0.035998,0.092445,0.018 041,-0.016239,-0.016186,0.016947,-0.010046,0.054017,0.067356,0.000782,0.005448,-0.008422,0.053526,0.100073,0.010758,-0.048313,-0.163517,0.01928
GEO_CHG,0.091058,0.102568,-0.083344,-0.00323,-0.08617,0.020638,0.024911,-0.001846,-0.128236,-0.074717,-0.006333,0.023979,-0.054856,0.004404,0.026601,-0.03275,0.02386,-0.013429,-0.022249,0.034767,0.033815,-0.007048,0.006532,-0.025787,-0.002036
MAR_LN,0.021626,0.148267,0.003394,-0.095285,0.047393,-0.054384,-0.027731,0.008769,0.083855,0.054124,0.020136,0.001 798,0.002973,-0.028901,0.004343,0.009944,0.032726,-0.014062,-0.033938,-5.00E-04,-0.018343,-0.02201,0.011709,-0.009881,-0.004191
MAR_EN,-0.1735805,0.0919055,-0.0258325,-0.083657,0.0283125,-0.0596825,-0.079316,0.021461,0.1500185,0.0043735,0.0222475,-0.0264515,0.075148,-0.0461725,0.069353,-0.03381,0.0171455,-0.05549,-0.1487635,0.0340785,-0.038245,-0.118212,0.0826995,-0.009941,0.021615
MAR_Iberomaurusian,-0.189857,0.0814452,-0.0242866,-0.085595,0.027636,-0.0552202,-0.0705968,0.0184146,0.155397,0.003499,0.0209156,-0.0318316,0.0747168,-0.0513334,0.0711988,-0.0363032,0.0052676,-0.066106,-0.1424162,0.0389938,-0.0376836,-0.1255322,0.0730118,-0.0137606,0.0164534

https://i.imgur.com/bPePhg5.png
Target:
UG Hima_scaled,-0.451878,0.080227,-0.001886,-0.037145,0.006155,-0.015339,-0.003055,0.005538,0.058085,-0.047199,-0.010555,0.005095,-0.015163,0.001376,0.004343,-0.004773,0.00326,0.00152,-0.000754,0.008879,0.003619,-0.002968,0.000739,-0.004579,0.004191



**In the spoiler above, notice the modern UG_Hima pastoralist with Levant_PPNC (10.6%) and without any KEN_Pastoral_N/ETH_4500BP:

If these Sudanese migrations came via the Horn directly, how were they able to circumvent KEN_Pastoral_N/ETH_4500BP affinities which are embedded in Cushitic-speaking pops? These migrations had to have come via the upper-nile basin (South-Sudan) or the extreme southwestern-edge of the Ethiopian-highlands -- there's simply no other explanation.

Some of these Sudanese-pastoral groups would later admix with Erythraean-pastoralists in the Rift-Valley, it doesn't look to be the case for this particular UG_Hima pastoralist but we see clear evidence in most of the other Tutsi-related samples judging by their KEN_Pastoral_N-affinity.
Contributing to what u are saying, those two Banyamulenge(Gishoma and Gatore) have origins in Uganda. Their clan’s oral history says they originate in Ankole and this is where UG_Hima is from. Strange enough, Gatore is 4th cousin to this Hima on 23andme. To me this is no surprise and coincidence. They show elevated PPNC compared to Tutsis. Especially Gatore, his clan migrated to straight to South Kivu from Uganda.

Maybe it’s a Ugandan thing! Just saying

Espoir
12-25-2019, 05:28 AM
We need to be open to all possibilities now to better understand the origin of E-M293.
As much as data points to a southern Cushitic origin which I strongly agree with, we have to acknowledge that this is data we have available now.

Now letís look at population that carry E-M293 at high frequency.
Datooga: A Nilotic speaking people
Iraqw: A Southern Cushitic speaking people.
Tutsis: A Bantu speaking people.
Khoikhoi: click speaking people.

So far high levels have been found in specific ethnic groups in Tanzania and Southern Africa. Highest were the Datooga (43%), Khwe (Kxoe) (31%), Burunge (28%), and Sandawe peoples (24%).
Clearly, these men didnít care much about language and all this said, we shouldnít focus much on what language they spoke because data is pointing to that fact.

I remember reading a paper about how people in NorthEast Africa switched languages back and forth between Nilosaharan and Afro-Asiatic.

Alfa
12-25-2019, 04:33 PM
A founder effect would result in loss of genetic variation, not an increase.

The afmd higher Y-STR diversity found in Datooga (Henn, 2008) speaks to deeper on-going relations between S/E-Cushitic and Sudanese-derived pastoralists in the Rift-Valley.





What other logical outcome could be derived from the data? It's clearly illustrated with the KEN_IA_Deloraine sample:

https://i.imgur.com/Co45OAN.png


(previously posted here (https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?18428-PCA-G25_scaled-Africans-only-(Users-amp-Ancients-Modern-Avgs)&p=613126&viewfull=1#post613126) with more details, and references from Prendergast et al, 2019)

These northern Levant_PPNC affinities couldn't have come from Bantu/West-African (Yoruba) or indigenous forager ancestry(KEN_LSA), and the lack of Natufian/ETH_4500BP clearly demonstrates it's not derived from Horner migrations.

Unless we consider the possibility of Iron-Age teleportation technology, a route between the upper Nile-Valley and extreme Western-Ethiopian highlands would be the most parsimonious explanation.

Originally posted by Angoliga

"The afmd higher Y-STR diversity found in Datooga (Henn, 2008) speaks to deeper on-going relations between S/E-Cushitic and Sudanese-derived pastoralists in the Rift-Valley."

I agree.

Which specific South Sudanese nilotic speaker group do you think could have been responsible for bringing this Levant PPNC in Kenya/Tanzania/Uganda?

Alfa
12-25-2019, 05:11 PM
We need to be open to all possibilities now to better understand the origin of E-M293.
As much as data points to a southern Cushitic origin which I strongly agree with, we have to acknowledge that this is data we have available now.

Now let’s look at population that carry E-M293 at high frequency.
Datooga: A Nilotic speaking people
Iraqw: A Southern Cushitic speaking people.
Tutsis: A Bantu speaking people.
Khoikhoi: click speaking people.

Clearly, these men didn’t care much about language and all this said, we shouldn’t focus much on what language they spoke because data is pointing to that fact.

I remember reading a paper about how people in NorthEast Africa switched languages back and forth between Nilosaharan and Afro-Asiatic.

Thanks for sharing. I just wanted to share other available data. There was a study by Hirbo...


20 Mbugu people: 55% E-M293
47 Iraqws people: 51% E-M293
50 Datoog people: 38% E-M293

What I find interesting, the highest frequency of E-M293 based on available data, is found among Mbugu people, a bantoue speakers whose language may have been an ancient kenyan cushitic language before they switched to a bantoue language. Some say the Mbugu language is grammatically bantoue, but the vocabulary is predominantly Cushitic.

Farroukh
12-27-2019, 04:02 AM
Dear friends from Rwanda,
Did brutal general Idi Amin belong to E-M293 clan?
End of the offtop.

Alfa
12-27-2019, 08:30 AM
Dear friends from Rwanda,
Did brutal general Idi Amin belong to E-M293 clan?
End of the offtop.

He belonged to an Uganda nilotic ethnic group. Regarding E-M293, I am not sure about?
Our brother @Angolica is more knowledgeable of Uganda nilosaharians speakers groups.

Farroukh
12-27-2019, 01:57 PM
Yes, he had Kakwa paternal ancestry. Perhaps, some of them are E-M35. E-M35 was observed in 71.9% of the Masalit, 59.4% of the Fur, 39.3% of the Nuba, 20% of the Shilluk, 16.7% of the Nuer, and 15% of the Dinka. Nilotic Datog of northern Tanzania carried the E-M293.

Angoliga
12-27-2019, 05:02 PM
Dear friends from Rwanda,
Did brutal general Idi Amin belong to E-M293 clan?
End of the offtop...

..Yes, he had Kakwa paternal ancestry. Perhaps, some of them are E-M35. E-M35 was observed in 71.9% of the Masalit, 59.4% of the Fur, 39.3% of the Nuba, 20% of the Shilluk, 16.7% of the Nuer, and 15% of the Dinka. Nilotic Datog of northern Tanzania carried the E-M293.


My maternal-side happens to be Kakwa; from the Godria-clan (yDNA B2a1) *no political-affiliation with Idi Amin -- interesting you mention it though, I once thought about reaching out to one of his sons years ago whose more in the public-eye and might potentially be interested in yDNA testing.

The Kakwa descend from South-Sudanese Bari who split from earlier Eastern-Nilotic speakers (Karamajong, Turkana, Maasai, Teso ..); all within a relatively recent historic time-period.

Despite still being commonly referred to as "Nilo-Hamitic", the Kakwa have become heavily admixed with local Ugandan/DRC/South-Sudanese Central-Sudanic speakers (Madi/Lugbara), so much so that they lack the sizable Eurasian affinities observed among Eastern-Nilotic Rift-Valley pops. Perhaps though, they might've retained some E-M293 lineges from their forerunners (Maasai, Turkana...) who ultimately acquired it from Cushitic (and/or Southern-Nilotic?) groups.

It would be interesting to verify, though as is commonly the case throughout Africa, we unfortunately lack ethnic specific yDNA data from the region.



Here's some references regarding their migration from the Rift-Valley (Lake Turkana basin) which distantly ties them to E-M293 carriers:



"The Nilotic groups arrived in Southern Sudan after the Sudanic speakers, perhaps from 1000 AD onwards. The first people to arrive in Eastern and Central Equatoria were the Eastern Nilotics, also known today as Plains Nilotes or Nilo-Hamites.

One group of these are the Loi speaking Bari, Pojulu, Kuku, Kakwa, Nyangbara and the Mundari. Loi means nobles. Another group are the non-Loi speakers: Murle, Didinga, Toposa, Dongotono, Lopit, Lango and Lotuho.

The original home of these Eastern Nilotics was north of Lake Turkana in modern day Ethiopia. Their route to Equatoria was to east and along the Nile between the Ethiopian highlands and the Sudd. Many Bari, for example, had begun their migration from Ethiopia in the mid 1600's when the Oromo invaded their territory. The Bari, Lotuho and Toposa arrived in Equatoria between 1500 and 1800 in different migrations. Many believe that they found the Madi already living in Equatoria." (Anders, 2014 (https://books.google.ca/books?id=8YYhBQAAQBAJ&pg=PA61&lpg=PA61&dq=The+Nilotic+groups+arrived+in+Southern+Sudan+af ter+the+Sudanic+speakers,+perhaps+from+1000+AD+onw ards.The+first+people+to+arrive+in+Eastern+and+Cen tral+Equatoria+were+the+Eastern+Nilotics,+also+kno wn+today+as+Plains+Nilotes+or+Nilo-Hamites.+One+group+of+these+arethe+Loi+speaking+Ba ri,+Pojulu,+Kuku,+Kakwa,+Nyangbara&source=bl&ots=FABxVmWqT_&sig=ACfU3U1_9eVLJHxYu7WFnmUx-3ng05PhyA&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjonoPehtbmAhUVOs0KHVaWBI0Q6AEwAHoECAoQA Q#v=onepage&q=The%20Nilotic%20groups%20arrived%20in%20Southern %20Sudan%20after%20the%20Sudanic%20speakers%2C%20p erhaps%20from%201000%20AD%20onwards.The%20first%20 people%20to%20arrive%20in%20Eastern%20and%20Centra l%20Equatoria%20were%20the%20Eastern%20Nilotics%2C %20also%20known%20today%20as%20Plains%20Nilotes%20 or%20Nilo-Hamites.%20One%20group%20of%20these%20arethe%20Loi %20speaking%20Bari%2C%20Pojulu%2C%20Kuku%2C%20Kakw a%2C%20Nyangbara&f=false))


"The Nilotic Kakwa migrated in eighteenth century to the area the now occupy which is situated in the nation-states of Congo, Sudan and Uganda. The Kakwa have close relations with Lugbara and intermarriage is common." (Wild-Wood, 2008 (https://books.google.ca/books?id=Ju95DwAAQBAJ&pg=PA81&lpg=PA81&dq=kakwa+MIGRATION&source=bl&ots=ETWS90PXBK&sig=ACfU3U0b3ypxKrgOkvjSrGrdJdRfcSDvaw&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwimhuvwitbmAhVrkuAKHXOJDAcQ6AEwB3oECAoQA Q#v=onepage&q=kakwa%20MIGRATION&f=false))


"The second Eastern Nilotic invasions may have been affected by the Oromo, who left their homeland north of Lake Turkana between 1517 and 1544 and attacked Tekidi around the same time as they began their invasions of southern Ethiopia. Ancestors of the modern Kakwa possible took part in this migration.

The land of Baar became an area of intense racial intermixing between the Eastern Nilotes and the Madi people ..." (Ogot, 1999 (https://books.google.ca/books?id=Fw-1DOCXUgsC&pg=PA382&lpg=PA382&dq=kakwa+MIGRATION&source=bl&ots=4mR_DVxUht&sig=ACfU3U2QRjrUhz-cY1-pIcl3PTsYISFSYA&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiupo7Oi9bmAhVkRN8KHZuVAYs4ChDoATABegQIC hAB#v=onepage&q=kakwa%20MIGRATION&f=false))

Espoir
12-27-2019, 09:35 PM
My maternal-side happens to be Kakwa; from the Godria-clan (yDNA B2a1) *no political-affiliation with Idi Amin -- interesting you mention it though, I once thought about reaching out to one of his sons years ago whose more in the public-eye and might potentially be interested in yDNA testing.

The Kakwa descend from South-Sudanese Bari who split from earlier Eastern-Nilotic speakers (Karamajong, Turkana, Maasai, Teso ..); all within a relatively recent historic time-period.

Despite still being commonly referred to as "Nilo-Hamitic", the Kakwa have become heavily admixed with local Ugandan/DRC/South-Sudanese Central-Sudanic speakers (Madi/Lugbara), so much so that they lack the sizable Eurasian affinities observed among Eastern-Nilotic Rift-Valley pops. Perhaps though, they might've retained some E-M293 lineges from their forerunners (Maasai, Turkana...) who ultimately acquired it from Cushitic (and/or Southern-Nilotic?) groups.

It would be interesting to verify, though as is commonly the case throughout Africa, we unfortunately lack ethnic specific yDNA data from the region.



Here's some references regarding their migration from the Rift-Valley (Lake Turkana basin) which distantly ties them to E-M293 carriers:



"The Nilotic groups arrived in Southern Sudan after the Sudanic speakers, perhaps from 1000 AD onwards. The first people to arrive in Eastern and Central Equatoria were the Eastern Nilotics, also known today as Plains Nilotes or Nilo-Hamites.

One group of these are the Loi speaking Bari, Pojulu, Kuku, Kakwa, Nyangbara and the Mundari. Loi means nobles. Another group are the non-Loi speakers: Murle, Didinga, Toposa, Dongotono, Lopit, Lango and Lotuho.

The original home of these Eastern Nilotics was north of Lake Turkana in modern day Ethiopia. Their route to Equatoria was to east and along the Nile between the Ethiopian highlands and the Sudd. Many Bari, for example, had begun their migration from Ethiopia in the mid 1600's when the Oromo invaded their territory. The Bari, Lotuho and Toposa arrived in Equatoria between 1500 and 1800 in different migrations. Many believe that they found the Madi already living in Equatoria." (Anders, 2014 (https://books.google.ca/books?id=8YYhBQAAQBAJ&pg=PA61&lpg=PA61&dq=The+Nilotic+groups+arrived+in+Southern+Sudan+af ter+the+Sudanic+speakers,+perhaps+from+1000+AD+onw ards.The+first+people+to+arrive+in+Eastern+and+Cen tral+Equatoria+were+the+Eastern+Nilotics,+also+kno wn+today+as+Plains+Nilotes+or+Nilo-Hamites.+One+group+of+these+arethe+Loi+speaking+Ba ri,+Pojulu,+Kuku,+Kakwa,+Nyangbara&source=bl&ots=FABxVmWqT_&sig=ACfU3U1_9eVLJHxYu7WFnmUx-3ng05PhyA&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjonoPehtbmAhUVOs0KHVaWBI0Q6AEwAHoECAoQA Q#v=onepage&q=The%20Nilotic%20groups%20arrived%20in%20Southern %20Sudan%20after%20the%20Sudanic%20speakers%2C%20p erhaps%20from%201000%20AD%20onwards.The%20first%20 people%20to%20arrive%20in%20Eastern%20and%20Centra l%20Equatoria%20were%20the%20Eastern%20Nilotics%2C %20also%20known%20today%20as%20Plains%20Nilotes%20 or%20Nilo-Hamites.%20One%20group%20of%20these%20arethe%20Loi %20speaking%20Bari%2C%20Pojulu%2C%20Kuku%2C%20Kakw a%2C%20Nyangbara&f=false))


"The Nilotic Kakwa migrated in eighteenth century to the area the now occupy which is situated in the nation-states of Congo, Sudan and Uganda. The Kakwa have close relations with Lugbara and intermarriage is common." (Wild-Wood, 2008 (https://books.google.ca/books?id=Ju95DwAAQBAJ&pg=PA81&lpg=PA81&dq=kakwa+MIGRATION&source=bl&ots=ETWS90PXBK&sig=ACfU3U0b3ypxKrgOkvjSrGrdJdRfcSDvaw&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwimhuvwitbmAhVrkuAKHXOJDAcQ6AEwB3oECAoQA Q#v=onepage&q=kakwa%20MIGRATION&f=false))


"The second Eastern Nilotic invasions may have been affected by the Oromo, who left their homeland north of Lake Turkana between 1517 and 1544 and attacked Tekidi around the same time as they began their invasions of southern Ethiopia. Ancestors of the modern Kakwa possible took part in this migration.

The land of Baar became an area of intense racial intermixing between the Eastern Nilotes and the Madi people ..." (Ogot, 1999 (https://books.google.ca/books?id=Fw-1DOCXUgsC&pg=PA382&lpg=PA382&dq=kakwa+MIGRATION&source=bl&ots=4mR_DVxUht&sig=ACfU3U2QRjrUhz-cY1-pIcl3PTsYISFSYA&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiupo7Oi9bmAhVkRN8KHZuVAYs4ChDoATABegQIC hAB#v=onepage&q=kakwa%20MIGRATION&f=false))
Quite an interesting post. Thank you!

I have heard rumors that Idi Amin father was a Nuban(Sudan) mercenary for the British that came to Uganda and stayed. How true is that?

Do you know how deep those Nilotic group penetrated in D.R.Congo? In Kasai, people there look very much Nilotic influenced. Canít say with full confidence, but I know that some Banyamulenge continued farther West and were not to be seen anymore. People think they are the Kasaian we see today. So when they find E-M293 deep in the heart of Congo, that could be the link.
I think, even if some Banyamulenge made it there, I suspect another Nilotic group made it too. Their morphology provides a clue.

Angoliga
12-28-2019, 02:17 AM
Which specific South Sudanese nilotic speaker group do you think could have been responsible for bringing this Levant PPNC in Kenya/Tanzania/Uganda?

Traces of E-M293 in South-Sudan along with Levant_PPNC affinities might've been swept from the upper-nile basin following Western-Nilotic expansions; these "River-Lake" nilotes are a completed separate group of Nilotic speakers than Highland and Plain-Nilotes (Southern-Nilotic and Eastern-Nilotic speakers respectively).

Following the ~14th century, these Western-Nilotic expansions (Dinka, Nuer, Luo) permanently shifted linguistic groups all over Central-East Africa:



"In addition to the Nuer conquests of the nineteenth century, evidence is led by Kelly for an expansion of the Dinka to the peripheries of the seasonally flooded grasslands of the Upper Nile basin some time between I500 and 1800 probably precipitated by Nuer expansion ..." (Robertshaw, I987)

.. During the second millennium, however, there occurred a great expansion of Nilotic peoples southwards. In northern Uganda, Central Sudanic languages were reduced into a few pockets, all to the west of the White Nile. In Kenya, Cushitic languages were eliminated from the western highlands and the Rift Valley. Only in north-central Tanzania did a handful of Southern Cushitic languages survive as remnants, surrounded by Bantu languages to the west and south and by Nilotic languages to the north and east. Moreover, there is ample evidence of Nilotic cultural influences spreading far to the south of Nilotic language frontiers. (Oliver, 2001)



These Nilotes are commonly referred to as River-Lake pastoralists and originate from the Sudd region of Bahr al Ghazal (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bahr_el_Ghazal_River). Their expansion gradually displaced and absorbed previous Nilo-Saharan speakers in much of the southern Equatoria (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equatoria) region, spreading across the upper-nile basin and as far east as South-Western Ethiopia. Modern Luo-speaking Ethiopian Anuak from the Gambela (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anuak_people) region might be the farthest eastern expansion of these Western-Nilotic speakers.




Here's an example of Western-Nilotic absorption with the afmd (https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?17868-E-M293-clade&p=633607&viewfull=1#post633607) Eastern-Nilotic speaking Bari (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bari_people) (Baria) of South-Sudan:
https://i.imgur.com/SlNuKUq.png

https://i.imgur.com/Ioz7dkP.png
Fig. 2 (Hollfelder, 2017 (https://journals.plos.org/plosgenetics/article?id=10.1371/journal.pgen.1006976#pgen-1006976-g002))


Recall that the Bari along with the Maasai (Turkana and other E. Nilotic speakers) are believed to have migrated from North of the Lake Turkana basin in the ~1600s.
Using ADMIXTURE, the modern Bari in these runs appear more or less like Dinka though you can still make-out hints of minor Cushitic-affinities which might reflect their earlier (Maasai-like?) ancestral-profile before migrating to South-Sudan.

I think something similar might've happened to pre-existing Southern-Nilotic South-Sudanese groups. Either they were absorbed or pushed out of the upper-nile basin (modern South-Sudan) by Western-Nilotic speakers who restricted their northernmost distribution to N/Western-Kenya -- this is would be where modern Kalenjin Southern-Nilotic speakers are currently situate




Quite an interesting post. Thank you!

I have heard rumors that Idi Amin father was a Nuban(Sudan) mercenary for the British that came to Uganda and stayed. How true is that?

Do you know how deep those Nilotic group penetrated in D.R.Congo? In Kasai, people there look very much Nilotic influenced. Can’t say with full confidence, but I know that some Banyamulenge continued farther West and were not to be seen anymore. People think they are the Kasaian we see today. So when they find E-M293 deep in the heart of Congo, that could be the link.
I think, even if some Banyamulenge made it there, I suspect another Nilotic group made it too. Their morphology provides a clue.

Regarding Amin's father, I've only heard oral accounts, so can't speak to anything factually: among many Kakwa it's said his father being of "Nubian" Sudanese origin is a false story concocted for publicity.

Eastern-Nilotic Kakwa are restricted to Ituri, same province as many Hema which I'm sure you're aware, Kakwa are also in Haut-Uele province bordering South-Sudan and Uganda though Central-Sudanic and Alur have a deeper range of influence in Congo.

By birth, my maternal-grandfather is technically Congolese, his clan still has some cattle there, kept more so for tradition/wedding dowry -- come to think of it, it would be ironic if E-M293 exists in north-eastern Congo from both Kakwa and Hema on the other side of the rift-valley.

Alfa
12-28-2019, 07:59 AM
Traces of E-M293 in South-Sudan along with Levant_PPNC affinities might've been swept from the upper-nile basin following Western-Nilotic expansions; these "River-Lake" nilotes are a completed separate group of Nilotic speakers than Highland and Plain-Nilotes (Southern-Nilotic and Eastern-Nilotic speakers respectively).

Following the ~14th century, these Western-Nilotic expansions (Dinka, Nuer, Luo) permanently shifted linguistic groups all over Central-East Africa:



"In addition to the Nuer conquests of the nineteenth century, evidence is led by Kelly for an expansion of the Dinka to the peripheries of the seasonally flooded grasslands of the Upper Nile basin some time between I500 and 1800 probably precipitated by Nuer expansion ..." (Robertshaw, I987)

.. During the second millennium, however, there occurred a great expansion of Nilotic peoples southwards. In northern Uganda, Central Sudanic languages were reduced into a few pockets, all to the west of the White Nile. In Kenya, Cushitic languages were eliminated from the western highlands and the Rift Valley. Only in north-central Tanzania did a handful of Southern Cushitic languages survive as remnants, surrounded by Bantu languages to the west and south and by Nilotic languages to the north and east. Moreover, there is ample evidence of Nilotic cultural influences spreading far to the south of Nilotic language frontiers. (Oliver, 2001)



These Nilotes are commonly referred to as River-Lake pastoralists and originate from the Sudd region of Bahr al Ghazal (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bahr_el_Ghazal_River). Their expansion gradually displaced and absorbed previous Nilo-Saharan speakers in much of the southern Equatoria (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equatoria) region, spreading across the upper-nile basin and as far east as South-Western Ethiopia. Modern Luo-speaking Ethiopian Anuak from the Gambela (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anuak_people) region might be the farthest eastern expansion of these Western-Nilotic speakers.




Here's an example of Western-Nilotic absorption with the afmd (https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?17868-E-M293-clade&p=633607&viewfull=1#post633607) Eastern-Nilotic speaking Bari (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bari_people) (Baria) of South-Sudan:
https://i.imgur.com/SlNuKUq.png

https://i.imgur.com/Ioz7dkP.png
Fig. 2 (Hollfelder, 2017 (https://journals.plos.org/plosgenetics/article?id=10.1371/journal.pgen.1006976#pgen-1006976-g002))


Recall that the Bari along with the Maasai (Turkana and other E. Nilotic speakers) are believed to have migrated from North of the Lake Turkana basin in the ~1600s.
Using ADMIXTURE, the modern Bari in these runs appear more or less like Dinka though you can still make-out hints of minor Cushitic-affinities which might reflect their earlier (Maasai-like?) ancestral-profile before migrating to South-Sudan.

I think something similar might've happened to pre-existing Southern-Nilotic South-Sudanese groups. Either they were absorbed or pushed out of the upper-nile basin (modern South-Sudan) by Western-Nilotic speakers who restricted their northernmost distribution to N/Western-Kenya -- this is would be where modern Kalenjin Southern-Nilotic speakers are currently situate





Regarding Amin's father, I've only heard oral accounts, so can't speak to anything factually: among many Kakwa it's said his father being of "Nubian" Sudanese origin is a false story concocted for publicity.

Eastern-Nilotic Kakwa are restricted to Ituri, same province as many Hema which I'm sure you're aware, Kakwa are also in Haut-Uele province bordering South-Sudan and Uganda though Central-Sudanic and Alur have a deeper range of influence in Congo.

By birth, my maternal-grandfather is technically Congolese, his clan still has some cattle there, kept more so for tradition/wedding dowry -- come to think of it, it would be ironic if E-M293 exists in north-eastern Congo from both Kakwa and Hema on the other side of the rift-valley.

Traces of E-M293 in South Sudan, it is not surprising. I read "Lank" (one of the active member on Anthrogenica)and some others hormers stating that there are some Eritreans and Ethiopians with E-M293 who tested with 23andme.
Does it occur that commercial dna companies like 23andme find specific rare haplogroups in some regions/countries where current studies have not been able to find or is it a sampling bias?

How would you explain the traces of E-M293 in Eritrea? If it is, it would be very surprising.

The Hema from DRC who were found in some studies to have ~30% of E-M293, are they from same region as Kakwa or Alur?

Angoliga
12-28-2019, 02:54 PM
Traces of E-M293 in South Sudan, it is not surprising. I read "Lank" (one of the active member on Anthrogenica)and some others hormers stating that there are some Eritreans and Ethiopians with E-M293 who tested with 23andme.
Does it occur that commercial dna companies like 23andme find specific rare haplogroups in some regions/countries where current studies have not been able to find or is it a sampling bias?

Yes, low resolution is always a factor, especially in Africa... sometimes commercial sites provide more information from tested-users.


How would you explain the traces of E-M293 in Eritrea? If it is, it would be very surprising.

Why would this be a surprise? Could you elaborate on the question....



"We propose that the migration marked by the E-M293 haplogroup could be the final step of a north-to-south range expansion linked to different branches of E-V1515, which initially involved people from Eritrea (and possibly northern Sudan, not sampled here)". (Trombetta, 2015 (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4524485/))

... are you asking why we're not finding E-M293 in the Horn/South-Sudan?



The Hema from DRC who were found in some studies to have ~30% of E-M293, are they from same region as Kakwa or Alur?

Yes, both Kakwa and Hema inhabit the Ituri province of DRC, as do the Alur.

At the moment, I'm not sure which specific E-haplogroups were found among the Alur, perhaps someone else can provide the subclades? E-2, E1b1a and B were found among the Alur in this small sample-set [n=9] (Wood, 2005).

drobbah
12-29-2019, 05:17 AM
Traces of E-M293 in South Sudan, it is not surprising. I read "Lank" (one of the active member on Anthrogenica)and some others hormers stating that there are some Eritreans and Ethiopians with E-M293 who tested with 23andme.
Does it occur that commercial dna companies like 23andme find specific rare haplogroups in some regions/countries where current studies have not been able to find or is it a sampling bias?

How would you explain the traces of E-M293 in Eritrea? If it is, it would be very surprising.

The Hema from DRC who were found in some studies to have ~30% of E-M293, are they from same region as Kakwa or Alur?

There are some Somali members from Northern Kenya who also have E-M293.

Farroukh
12-31-2019, 02:51 PM
Dear friends,

Is there any suggestions about E-M293 and Abanyiginya clan?

Rwaka
01-01-2020, 07:04 PM
The word "Abanyiginya" is Ugandan in origin; it either means those who have been wealthy and noble for a long time or the relatives of the ruling family. There are also other clans that both exist among Tutsi and Hima tribes
The E-M293 has been brought by different pastoralist groups that came to Rwanda from Uganda; them and several Pastoralist groups who bore other haplogroups formed the Tutsi ethnicity as Rwanda was getting united as one Kingdom.
We have yet to find more Hima samples to see if there's the same diversity of haplogroups observed in Tutsi people.

Rwaka
01-01-2020, 07:21 PM
Btw, good news: a new clade E-CTS2297 was added under E-M293 and that's where my actual clade E-V17344 stems from.
For some reason, I can't upload the image, but here's the link
https://yfull.com/tree/E-M293/

Farroukh
01-02-2020, 10:34 AM
Very interesting. You are on the same branch with Kuwaiti Arab guy. It seems Tutsi legend about their ancestry from "land of Misr" (Egypt) is not just a myth. Also we can see high tall pastoralists images on ancient Egyptian inscriptions.

Espoir
01-04-2020, 11:47 PM
Very interesting. You are on the same branch with Kuwaiti Arab guy. It seems Tutsi legend about their ancestry from "land of Misr" (Egypt) is not just a myth. Also we can see high tall pastoralists images on ancient Egyptian inscriptions.

From what I know, legends were brought by european scholars that saw striking similarities between ancient Egyptians and Tutsis. I donít know of any local legends that points to Egypt.
Maybe those scholars had a point. Longhorned cattle paintings on walls and similar morphology between Tutsis and some ancient Egyptians painted on walls caught my attention early on, but couldnít find strong evidence. There are many African populations that can fit on the morphological side of it and fit even better.
But surely in this day and age, almost every legend can be proven right or wrong.

mpatsibihugu89
01-12-2020, 07:19 PM
Someone told me on reddit-23andme sub a guy from Degodiye (or degodia) clan in Northern Kenya carries E-M293(23andme tester). No sure if anyone on this forum has encountered such people or seen what haplos they carry. Feel free to educate me.

drobbah
01-12-2020, 10:38 PM
Someone told me on reddit-23andme sub a guy from Degodiye (or degodia) clan in Northern Kenya carries E-M293(23andme tester). No sure if anyone on this forum has encountered such people or seen what haplos they carry. Feel free to educate me.

Degodia is a Somali clan.Traditional Kenyan Somalis and the Rendille seem to have absorbed Borana & South Cushitic peoples into their ranks which explains the presence of E-M293 and their non-somali autosomal admixture

Gee
01-13-2020, 12:32 AM
THis is maybe off topic, but if we put ethnicities/different people on lists, how close are ethiopians and somalis to their neighbors? How close are they to west africans as well in autosomal results?

mpatsibihugu89
01-13-2020, 02:14 AM
Don't know much about this clan autosomal DNA. But thought the same ish, southern somalia-northern kenya Somali being slightly mixed whatnot. However, this somali person scored 97.3% Somali and 2.7% Ethiopian&Erithrean with recent 23andme updates. No Southern East African as one would assume. I know it's just one person, no major conclusions drawn yet but not to be dismissed as well.

drobbah
01-13-2020, 04:39 AM
Don't know much about this clan autosomal DNA. But thought the same ish, southern somalia-northern kenya Somali being slightly mixed whatnot. However, this somali person scored 97.3% Somali and 2.7% Ethiopian&Erithrean with recent 23andme updates. No Southern East African as one would assume. I know it's just one person, no major conclusions drawn yet but not to be dismissed as well.

23andme isn't really good at differentiating between Somalis and other Cushitic speakers.I score even more Somali with only 1.6% Ethiopian yet when I use admixture models I'm only around 80-85% Northern standard Somali with the rest being Oromo.

Southern Somalia and most Kenyan Somalis are not admixed and seem mostly Somali except those who mixed with the Eurasian traders of the coasts or the Raxanweyn community (largest non-Somali minority in the south).Kenya's Somalis are divided between the most recent Darood arrivals (last two centuries) who speak standard Somali and aren't different from other standard father North and the indigenous Somali clans who resided in Northern Kenya for a long time and have their own distinct culture and dialects, these clans are the Garre,Degodia and the Ajuraan

mpatsibihugu89
01-13-2020, 05:39 AM
23andme isn't really good at differentiating between Somalis and other Cushitic speakers.I score even more Somali with only 1.6% Ethiopian yet when I use admixture models I'm only around 80-85% Northern standard Somali with the rest being Oromo.

Southern Somalia and most Kenyan Somalis are not admixed and seem mostly Somali except those who mixed with the Eurasian traders of the coasts or the Raxanweyn community (largest non-Somali minority in the south).Kenya's Somalis are divided between the most recent Darood arrivals (last two centuries) who speak standard Somali and aren't different from other standard father North and the indigenous Somali clans who resided in Northern Kenya for a long time and have their own distinct culture and dialects, these clans are the Garre,Degodia and the Ajuraan

I don't know these other admixture models you use...so no opinion on them. You think they do a better job than 23? Imo, 23andme Somali admixture calculator works pretty well with very low recall, not as great as Ashkenazi jewish but in that vicinity. I have seen many Somali score very high. The way they can tell Oromos apart from Somalis amazes me. Ethiopian & Erithrean is a little too broad for me though, so is Sudanese. Somali gets 5-stars. I have also seen Ethiopians (amhara) and North-Sudanese score very high in respective regions. Only limitation is that it calculates with modern pops reference.

drobbah
01-13-2020, 05:58 AM
I don't know these other admixture models you use...so no opinion on them. You think they do a better job than 23? Imo, 23andme Somali admixture calculator works pretty well with very low recall, not as great as Ashkenazi jewish but in that vicinity. I have seen many Somali score very high. The way they can tell Oromos apart from Somalis amazes me. Ethiopian & Erithrean is a little too broad for me though, so is Sudanese. Somali gets 5-stars. I have also seen Ethiopians (amhara) and North-Sudanese score very high in respective regions. Only limitation is that it calculates with modern pops reference.
If I were to take 23andme at face value I would have assumed I was a regular Somali.It was only with G25 that I noticed I have more than triple the Mota admixture my mother has (11% vs 3%).I personally don't take 23andme or ancestrydna seriously but that's just me.I think it's good at guessing what ethnicity you belong too but I don;t think it's good at differentiating between similar populations.The Ethiopian category is quite strange considering Ethiopia is very diverse (includes 10 million Somalis) furthermore, the Oromos themselves are very heterogeneous.

GabrielZelalem
01-13-2020, 10:01 AM
If I were to take 23andme at face value I would have assumed I was a regular Somali.It was only with G25 that I noticed I have more than triple the Mota admixture my mother has (11% vs 3%).I personally don't take 23andme or ancestrydna seriously but that's just me.I think it's good at guessing what ethnicity you belong too but I don;t think it's good at differentiating between similar populations.The Ethiopian category is quite strange considering Ethiopia is very diverse (includes 10 million Somalis) furthermore, the Oromos themselves are very heterogeneous.

I score higher Ethiopian %ages with G25 too (15-20% on G25 vs 5.6% on 23andme). But it's always Ethiopian Jew that comes up. I also score higher Kenyan Somali than "Somalia Somali" ? Which I find a bit confusing.
In order to really capture the "Ethiopian" admixtures we have in us, we need to get high quality samples of endogamous Boranas and North Ethiopian peoples I think.

drobbah
01-13-2020, 05:22 PM
I score higher Ethiopian %ages with G25 too (15-20% on G25 vs 5.6% on 23andme). But it's always Ethiopian Jew that comes up. I also score higher Kenyan Somali than "Somalia Somali" ? Which I find a bit confusing.
In order to really capture the "Ethiopian" admixtures we have in us, we need to get high quality samples of endogamous Boranas and North Ethiopian peoples I think.

From what I remember you had 9% Mota which isn't far from my 11%.I use Oromo2 and Oromo16 as a good approximation of my Oromo ancestry.My father is probably very similar to the Oromo 2 sample

mpatsibihugu89
01-13-2020, 06:05 PM
If I were to take 23andme at face value I would have assumed I was a regular Somali.It was only with G25 that I noticed I have more than triple the Mota admixture my mother has (11% vs 3%).I personally don't take 23andme or ancestrydna seriously but that's just me.I think it's good at guessing what ethnicity you belong too but I don;t think it's good at differentiating between similar populations.The Ethiopian category is quite strange considering Ethiopia is very diverse (includes 10 million Somalis) furthermore, the Oromos themselves are very heterogeneous.

Do update this thread please when/if you find more Somali E-m293 carriers. I (and many others here I bet) would appreciate that muchos.

mpatsibihugu89
01-19-2020, 03:25 PM
35954

95% probability.

2.UAE- EM293>E-CTS2297 from United Arab Emirates
3.KUW- EM293>E-CTS2297 Kuwait
4.KUW- EM293>E-CTS2297 Kuwait
5.CYU- EM293>E-CTS2297 Rwanda
6.NGA- EM293>E-CTS2297 Rwanda

@Rwaka and I got our results back from doing Y-111. Our friend @Espoir showed us this tool online TMRCA Tool (http://www.mymcgee.com/tools/yutility111.html) which free and uses STR data to estimated TMRCA. Turns out (my Rwandan lineage has been in Rwanda and/or Western UG as far as my family remembers) I am somehow closer to people on the Arabian Peninsula than I am to my fellow Rwandan. Confusing as hell...Closest TMRCA is with the UAE guy 1254y, followed by 1584y and 1716y with Kuwaiti guys and last 2739y with Rwandan(@rwaka). By the way, I expected @Rwaka to be a match on FTDNA. Instead, I found matches on Y-12 only which I am told could be very distant and quite insignificant.

I found these "arabs" or whatever they are on FTDNA. Their STR data is public. I am really curious about their autosomal DNA now. I wonder how these Em293 carriers got there. Eastern Slave trade or migration via the horn?

My 2nd option is going Big Y700 and confirming this on Yfull which I believe has on the Kuwaiti guys. Let me know what y'all think.

Farroukh
02-10-2020, 04:16 AM
Dear mpatsibihugu89 ,
TMRCA estimations based on YSTR are not exact data. Only YSNP divergence is most believed.
Try to order BigY.
(YSTR matches could be homoplasic phantom)

mpatsibihugu89
02-10-2020, 07:48 PM
Dear mpatsibihugu89 ,
TMRCA estimations based on YSTR are not exact data. Only YSNP divergence is most believed.
Try to order BigY.
(YSTR matches could be homoplasic phantom)

I believe Y-STR would be useful if our lineages split under perhaps FTDNA has 24 generations. Saw 10gen somewhere else but not sure. And yes beyond that time range Y-SNP is better. Waiting for results now and I shall compare STR and SNP estimates.

Farroukh
02-11-2020, 05:39 PM
Split point of your and Arabian branches occurred much more than 2000 years if they are not even in yourY12 match list. Or they are?

mpatsibihugu89
02-24-2020, 01:11 PM
Split point of your and Arabian branches occurred much more than 2000 years if they are not even in yourY12 match list. Or they are?



They are not on my Y-12. But what is comfirmed is our lineage of E-M293>E-CTS2297 (Tmrca ~3600y). I was told on the Em35 project FTDNA that Y12 was basically kinda useless (not all the time I suppose). My Y12 match split off much earlier than these arab individuals. Without matching on another marker, the match isn't credible.

Here is the lineage of my european: E-M215>>>>E-Z827>Z830>PF1962>M123>M34>Z841>CTS2525>CTS1727>L791>Y4971>Y4972>Y4970>PH3893>E-Y58796>E-BY36877

Here is me:E-M215>>>> E-Z827>Z830>V1515>CTS11051>CTS2871>V1486>Z1267>E-M293>E-CTS2297

Looks like we split at E-Z830 which formed 23600 ybp, TMRCA 19100 ybp...So you can see why I don't trust Y-12.

ThaYamamoto
02-24-2020, 10:13 PM
Might be of note to you...I know a bunch of Omanis and Emiratis that claim Rwandan ancestry, usually like to put Rwandan flags in their IG bios etc.

Farroukh
02-28-2020, 05:47 AM
Y12 was basically kinda useless (not all the time I suppose).
Sure, Y12 matches is not clear indication, in some cases only.
Our basic mantra is "BigY/bam/Yfull".

Alfa
02-29-2020, 09:18 PM
Might be of note to you...I know a bunch of Omanis and Emiratis that claim Rwandan ancestry, usually like to put Rwandan flags in their IG bios etc.

There are a lot of Lebanese, Omani, Emirate arabs business people in East Africa countries. What you are saying is not suprising.
If I recall, I saw on FTDNA only 4 arab guys (from Oman and UEA) with with E-M293(under E-CTS2297 subclade), but they are not claiming East Africa as their origin, let alone Rwanda. Unfortunately, there are not sharing their autosomal dna.

If you happen to know any of those arab guys who may have taken a dna test, it would be great if you share with us their autosomal dna and their Y haplogroups.

Nebro
02-29-2020, 10:05 PM
E-M293 is associated with the Kenya Pastoralists Expansion TMRCA 4200 ybp and in advance from the North african "Levantinese" Early pastoralists.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/31147405

drobbah
02-29-2020, 10:43 PM
The "North African Levantinese" pastoralists were 22% Dinka and that's despite being admixed with 20%+ local Horner HG component :biggrin1:

Nebro
02-29-2020, 11:12 PM
The "North African Levantinese" pastoralists were 22% Dinka and that's despite being admixed with 20%+ local Horner HG component :biggrin1:

They mixed with this africans when they branched to the southeast africa, read the paper there was two phases of admixture 5300 Ybp and 4200 Ybp , the later when they mixed with the local horner HG.

They originally were just the "Levantinese proportion"

ThaYamamoto
03-01-2020, 12:48 AM
........

mpatsibihugu89
03-22-2020, 03:47 PM
I recently just got my results from FTDNA. New BIG Y tested SNPs under E-M293.

FTDNA assigned E-Z1258

36920

mpatsibihugu89
04-18-2020, 12:38 AM
37191 New subclades on YFULL

Alfa
05-22-2020, 01:39 AM
E-M293 gets its fame as the diagnostic South Erythrean paternal lineage, and it was well known for this even before the PN/ELM 2019 paper. It is an E-M35 lineage, however it is E-Z827, a brotherly lineage to E-L539 (E-M78's predecessor). The last common ancestor for all E-M293 thus far lived around 4,500 years ago, just around the time (+/- a few hundred years) South Erythrean broke off from East Erythrean likely somewhere in the Horn, and specifically in the Somali lowlands where 5,000 year old Erythrean pastoralist cattle herding cultures existed, and who even depicted in ancient cave paintings cattle of the type ancestral to Tutsi and Great Lakes cattle. The Natufians were E-Z830, and are the earliest E-Z830 and E-Z827 recorded. The earliest E-M35 and E-L539 however, are the Ibermaursians of NW Africa, and the Natufians had ancestry from people similar to these earlier E-M35 Ibermaursians - not the other way around.

The earliest known member of your lineage is in a 3,000 year old Pastoral Neolithic South Erythrean nomad (I8809), who was also mtdna M1a1 like yourself. Around half of the 22 PN/ELM South Erythrean ancients had or likely carried E-M293. The earliest (mentioned) was 1,000-1,500 years removed from the mrca. By 4,000 years ago, it's likely your South Erythrean ancestors had crossed past the Tana river and into the Rift from northern Kenya.

Here's an overview of your lineage:

E-M35>E-Z827>E-Z830>E-CTS10880 (E-V1515)>E-Y5861>E-CTS1177 (E-V1846)>E-Z1267>E-M293

The closest lineages to E-M293 are other E-Z1267 lineages, with which E-M293 shares a 5,000 ybp mrca. E-V1515 - the E-M35 lineage most non-E-M78 Erythreans have and to which E-M293 belongs - despite it being an old lineage, was most likely a founding lineage of the pre-proto-Erythreans. Your closest relatives outside of other E-M293 and E-Z1267 carriers would be other E-V1515 men, who are present in high frequencies throughout the Horn and in every major Erythrean sub-group except the Beja. E-V151 has two major lineages: E-V1700 and E-V1486, the latter to which E-M293 belongs. The most ancestral and basal E-V1515 lineages are all clustered in northern Eritrea and Ethiopia amongst the Ethiosemitic Tigray and Amhara, Central Erythrean Agew and Ethiopian Jews, and the Nilo-Saharan Kunama and Nara - the latter 2 Nilo-Saharan groups being heavily admixed with the neighboring Ethiosemitic groups. The East Erythrean Afar and Ethiosemitic Amhara are rich in E-V6 - a E-V1515 lineage more distant to E-M293, being as it is a E-V1700 lineage along with E-V42. Another E-V1515 lineage, a brother lineage of E-M293 as they both are E-V1486 (the other major E-V1515 lineage) is E-V92, a lineage found almost solely in Habeshas, and same goes for aforementioned E-V42 (a E-V1700 lineage), which seems as of now wholly restricted to more northern parts of Ethiopia amongst Central Erythreans (Ethiopian Jews) and the Kunama and Nara, and Amhara, but at much higher frequencies than E-V92. E-V1785* (E-GG24), a basal E-V1515 lineage ancestral to E-V6, makes up more than a quarter amongst the Tigray, and the same situation exists for ancestal E-V1486* - the other major E-V1515 lineage and the one ancestral to E-M293. As such, the two major branches of E-V1515 have their basal lineages in high frequency amongst the Tigray and northern Ethiosemites and the Nilo-Saharan Kunama and Nara (who have heavy sex-biased admixture from the aforementioned groups). Outside of the Horn, only E-V6 (along with E-V32) is also found in NW Egyptians from Siwa and Baharia. The lineage is present in the Arabian peninsula due to both long-term Aksumite socio-political hegemony in the late centuries BC and early AD, and later medieval, early modern, and late modern Horn African mamluks and slave armies, and slave-administrators, many whom settled and intermarried with the local Arab populations they policed and governed under various Arabian dynasties and monarchies.

Of the two major branchings of E-V1515, E-V1486 looks to be a major lineage of the South-East Erythrean population of Somali lowlands 5,000 years ago. It contains both E-M293 and E-V2881, the former most strongly associated with South Erythreans and found in the majority of South Erythrean males. E-V2881 is associated and found most significantly in East Erythreans in turn, especially in Oromos. While I have not seen any E-V2881 in the ancient samples or in modern populations south of Kenya, E-M293 has been recorded in Oromos, Wolaytas, and other East Erythrean and Erythrean and Omotic ethnic groups from southern Ethiopia and northern Kenya. It may be that E-M293 may have East Erythrean branch, and the South Erythreans a branch of E-V32 - especially as the earliest recorded E-V32 male was found amongst the South Erythreans, and a more basal E-V32 is found amongst Kenyan Nilotic and Bantu groups, and especially amongst the Bantu Luhya (although their E-Z813 is possibly of recent Boran Oromo origin). The same might be true for E-V2881. As such, it is likely that the E-V1515 lineages of the South Erythreans was not solely E-M293, and I'm sure at some point some Khoe, Xhosa, or Great Lakes pastoralist guy will get tested and show up with E-V2881 or some other E-V1486 or even E-V1700, just as we continue to find more E-M293 in Oromos and Wolaytas, and other East Erythrean, Omotic, and other Horn African groups.

Your ancestors - the South Erythreans - were likely the first NE African nomads to penetrate successfully south of the northern Frontier-south Somalia tropical-riverine zone and into Southeast Africa, and from there further afield, and by 2,000 South Erythrean clans and subgroups probably went past the Zambezi river into Botswana/Angola/Zimbabwe/Namibia, as perhaps as far as South Africa as Khoe-San DNA from South Africa and dating of archeological remains of cattle show.

Since the South Erythreans mixed heavily with the Khoe-San HG populations of the southern Africa, all Khoe and San people - whether pastoralists or hunter-gatherers - have significant Erythrean ancestry and most groups carry E-M35 at significant frequencies, even the most isolated ones. Because of the ancient cross-continental migration of the South Erythreans, E-M239 is found in significant frequencies from the cape to central Ethiopia. It peaks in South Erythrean populations like the Iraqw and Burunge, along with Great Lakes pastoralist groups like the Tutsi, south Nilotes, the Khoe nomads and San HG groups of southern and southwest Africa. It is present in Bantu groups ranging from Mt. Kenya and the Great Lakes to Southwestern Africa, such as the Kikuyu, Luhya, Rangi, Zulu, Xhosa, Herero, and Ovambo, and many of these diverse Khoe-San, Bantu, and Nilotic groups still practice cultural artefacts and the cattle-herding lifestyle of their bygone South Erythrean ancestors.

Concerning the deep history of E-V1515:

Because E-V1515 is around 12-11,000 years old, and since this lineage is essentially almost wholly restricted to Eythreans and Erythrean admixed people, it is very likely E-V1515 was a signature lineage of the pre-proto-Erythrean hunter-gatherers of Red Sea Egypt and Sudan. It is likely your E-M35 ancestors never really left NE Africa until the Erythrean migration beginning 7-6,000 years ago into the Horn and likely as far southwards to the Zambezi.
@VytautusofAukstaitijia There are E-M293 subclades on Yfull link
https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-M293/

2 Rwanda guys share same subclade with 1 United Arab Emirates guys, 2 Koweiti guy. What is your thoughts of how this TMRCA 3,400 years E-Y183180* clade those 3 arabs guys share with Rwandan got to middle east? Was it slavery(they are not claiming any recent African ancestry) or perhaps is a much older event.

mpatsibihugu89
06-03-2020, 10:31 PM
Notes/questions on different lineage of E-M293 and their formed/tmrca age. the little notes were made based on Prendergast '19 on herders in East AFrica since many of them were E-M293. And I focused on my community in the great lakes region of ba-tutsi and ba-hima. I want to know what these ages mean or if they line up with known regional events.
Note: Pastoral Iron age ~1200BP lines up (+/-) with the birth of many small Kingdoms in the Great Lakes regions. These people are related to the same herders in Prendergast paper.

Fill in info based on events in the region relating to ages provided for formed clades/tmrca.

See below
37864

Timeline of admixture events

37865


37866

Burundi/Rwanda/S.W Uganda are not too far from these sites. Ba-tutsi/Ba-hima ruling lineages are said to have come from the East[Relative to Rwanda] (myth??thruth??)

Alfa
06-08-2020, 03:32 AM
@Drobbah @Angolica

Again, I don't wanna derail this thread, I have 1 more question.
There is 1 person from Rwanda_Burundi who was recently found to carry mtdna L1c1'2'4'6 haplogroup by 23andme

And mtdna haplo L1c2a1 and L1c2b2 are concentrated in South West Africa(Angola no far from Khoisan like people),South East Africa, and East Africa Tanzania, and absent in west/central africa.

Please note that there may be some Afro Americans who carry L1c2a1, L1c2b2, they are most likely descendants of slaves who were taken from South West Africa like Angola

KHOISAN Hadza/Pygmies are responsible for the spread of B-M112 and L1c who seem connected.

Where do you think those B-M112/L1c originated South East Africa or Central Africa?

Who carried male B-M112 haplo and female L1C first? Khoisan&Hadza or pygmies?

If this female haplogroup L1c1'2'4'6 that was found by 23andme in a Rwanda/Burundi Tutsi ends up being correct, then L1c2a1/L1c2b2 mutations may have occurred in South East Africa.

Alfa
07-11-2020, 04:39 AM
I recently just got my results from FTDNA. New BIG Y tested SNPs under E-M293.

FTDNA assigned E-Z1258

36920

There is 1 Tutsi from Burundi who is E-L677 according to 23andme. His 23andme autosomal breakdown is typical Tutsi (70+% North East). Is anyone familiar with the E-L677 on 23andme?

NetNomad
07-11-2020, 09:20 AM
There is 1 Tutsi from Burundi who is E-L677 according to 23andme. His 23andme autosomal breakdown is typical Tutsi (70+% North East). Is anyone familiar with the E-L677 on 23andme?

Most likely he is E-V22. See this (https://www.reddit.com/r/23andme/comments/fpn3eh/el677_paternal_haplogroup/).

If I were to further guess, I'd say E-V3262 (https://yfull.com/tree/E-V3262/) (the #1 lineage in the Saho of Eritrea). Some South Cushites were E-V22, but it wasn't their predominant lineage (E-M293).