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View Full Version : New subforum for R1b1-Z2103 and its downstreams



Farroukh
12-30-2013, 05:09 AM
Dear friends, as you know, large part of R1b1a members belong to L51's downstreams:
- L11 ("Western Europeans") with P312/U106
- Z2103 ("Eastern Europeans and Western Asians") with L584 and L277
1136

There are subforums for L11 and its downstreams, but I can't find the same for Z2103.

Is it possible to start new subforum for Z2103 and downstrems?

Kind regards from Eastern Europeans and Western Asians
F.

Rathna
12-30-2013, 05:23 AM
Dear friends, as you know, large part of R1b1a members belong to L51's downstreams:
- L11 ("Western Europeans") with P312/U106
- Z2103 ("Eastern Europeans and Western Asians") with L584 and L277
1136

There are subforums for L11 and its downstreams, but I can't find the same for Z2103.

Is it possible to start new subforum for Z2103 and downstrems?

Kind regards from Eastern Europeans and Western Asians
F.

Hi Farroukh, R-Z2103/Z2105 is also my haplogroup. I am a Tuscan (Italy) and am just the theorist of an Italian Refugium of R1b1/L389+ and of course of Z2105 and subclades. You can find here many threads about this haplogroup:

Y-Chromosome (Y-DNA) Haplogroups
R
R1b Early Subclades

Joe B
12-30-2013, 05:25 AM
We have few threads going in the R1b Early Subclades (http://www.anthrogenica.com/forumdisplay.php?51-R1b-Early-Subclades) subforum.

Farroukh
12-30-2013, 05:34 AM
Dear Joe and Rathna , thank you for the link. But R1b1a-Z2103 is not early subclade, am I right?

Early subclades of R1b are R1ba*, R1b1b*, R1b1c* and R1b*, are'nt it?

I hope Z2103 is enough interesting for special subforum.

P. S. Guys, do you tested for L584/L277 or Z2104,Z2107,CTS7822,CTS7763,CTS8966?

Rathna
12-30-2013, 05:44 AM
These two haplotypes are more likely R-L277 rather than R-L584. Anyway all derived from R-Z2105 and not the ancestors of it:
74690 Malkhasy Azerbaijan Azerbaijan R1b1a2
12 24 14 10 11-14 12 12 12 13 14 28 16 9-10 11 11 25 15 19 31 15-15-16-18 10 11 19-23 15 16 17 16 38-39 12 12
N3986 Mouradian Melik Mouradian, ~1860-1905, Hadrut, Karabakh Armenia R1b1a2a
12 25 15 11 11-14 12 12 13 13 14 28 17 9-10 11 11 25 15 19 28 15-15-16-18 11 11 19-21 15 16 18 19 35-38 12 12

Rathna
12-30-2013, 05:46 AM
Dear Joe and Rathna , thank you for the link. But R1b1a-Z2103 is not early subclade, am I right?

Early subclades of R1b are R1ba*, R1b1b*, R1b1c* and R1b*, are'nt it?

I hope Z2103 is enough interesting for special subforum.

P. S. Guys, do you tested for L584/L277 or Z2104,Z2107,CTS7822,CTS7763,CTS8966?

I am Z2105+ (FTDNA) and L277- and L584- (23andMe). I am waiting for my Chromo2 from 2 October which should test the other SNPs.

Farroukh
12-30-2013, 05:56 AM
These two haplotypes are more likely R-L277 rather that R-L584
OK, we'll movethem into new subgroup

Joe B
12-30-2013, 06:36 AM
Dear Joe and Rathna , thank you for the link. But R1b1a-Z2103 is not early subclade, am I right?

Early subclades of R1b are R1ba*, R1b1b*, R1b1c* and R1b*, are'nt it?

I hope Z2103 is enough interesting for special subforum.

P. S. Guys, do you tested for L584/L277 or Z2104,Z2107,CTS7822,CTS7763,CTS8966?
You will find that we are a small but vocal group. I have tested L23+, L150+, Z2103+, Z2105+, L277-, L584-. You might find some of the tools developed by Mike W to be helpful. The R1b-Early Subclades Haplotypes Spreadsheet (http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?1469-R1b-Early-Subclades-Haplotypes-Spreadsheet) can be very helpful for STR comparisons. He also maintains a nice phylogenetic tree (http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?820-R1b-Early-Branching-Phylogeny-%28SNP-based-family-tree%29&p=15405&viewfull=1#post15405) for us too. Another new tree by smal has also been a great help. http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?1727-R1b-phylogeny&p=23698&viewfull=1#post23698
Early R1b Subclades is a legacy name that is far superior to the old HT35 label.
Glad you have an interest in our subclade!

DMXX
12-30-2013, 09:18 AM
Hello Farroukh,

Thank you for sharing your suggestion.

There may be some upcoming changes in the layout of Anthrogenica's Y-DNA R1b section which could include the expansion of the subclade you have specified.

We will post an update in the Announcements section should these take place.

Farroukh
12-30-2013, 09:59 AM
Dear Joe, my maternal granfather is R1b-L584 and Z2103 is typical for our region. Therefore I try to learn about Z2103 as much as it is possible.
Let me show you another tree:

1137

You are definetly from old European branch. Let us talk about it in a related topic, not here.

Rathna
12-30-2013, 10:23 AM
Let me show you another tree:

1137


This tree of smal has been updated a few posts below in R1b Early Subclades.

DMXX
12-30-2013, 11:08 AM
Please continue the discussion in another thread. This sub-board is for forum-related suggestions only. Any more OT will be deleted.

Mikewww
12-30-2013, 09:01 PM
I think this discussion is being moved elsewhere so please move my post with it or let me know where we are moving this conversation to.


Dear Joe and Rathna , thank you for the link. But R1b1a-Z2103 is not early subclade, am I right?

Early subclades of R1b are R1ba*, R1b1b*, R1b1c* and R1b*, are'nt it?

I hope Z2103 is enough interesting for special subforum.

P. S. Guys, do you tested for L584/L277 or Z2104,Z2107,CTS7822,CTS7763,CTS8966?


You will find that we are a small but vocal group. I have tested L23+, L150+, Z2103+, Z2105+, L277-, L584-. You might find some of the tools developed by Mike W to be helpful. The R1b-Early Subclades Haplotypes Spreadsheet (http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?1469-R1b-Early-Subclades-Haplotypes-Spreadsheet) can be very helpful for STR comparisons. He also maintains a nice phylogenetic tree (http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?820-R1b-Early-Branching-Phylogeny-%28SNP-based-family-tree%29&p=15405&viewfull=1#post15405) for us too. Another new tree by smal has also been a great help. http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?1727-R1b-phylogeny&p=23698&viewfull=1#post23698
Early R1b Subclades is a legacy name that is far superior to the old HT35 label.
Glad you have an interest in our subclade!

There was never any intent to declare Z2103 or anything in this are of the tree as early in the sense of indicating ancient age.

Just so you know my thought process... I tend to follow the major R1b haplogroup projects and two of the most pertinent are the R1bx297 (R1b1Asterisk) and the R1b1a2xU106xP312 (ht35new) projects.

Ht35 is an obsolete term given the depth of SNP testing we have so I didn't want to use that. I was tempted to and very nearly used the term "Eastern" because relative to the massive DNA testing population portion of R1b, R1b1a2-P312 & U106, the rest is more easterly. However, I detest geographic and ethnic labels as some times the ultimate origins are completely reverse of modern populations.

"E" for eastern became "E" for "early branching" in my thought process as that was the most accurate description I could could come up with for various groups outside of the large P312 and U106 modern DNA blogging population. That roughly conforms to project groupings and administrators. Z2103 is probably the bulk of that but I'm not sure that there are enough bloggers to keep R1b xZ2103 and xL51 alive as a subforum on its own.

Farroukh
12-31-2013, 04:16 AM
Well, ok, let us talk about it in R1b early clades sub-forum.

DMXX
02-25-2015, 01:11 AM
Dear members,

Very pleased to announce we've added the R1b-Z2103/Z2105 section (http://www.anthrogenica.com/forumdisplay.php?147-R1b-Z2103-Z2105) to the forum.

We are open to further subclade breakdowns within this section. This subclade is beyond my expertise and I've refrained from furnishing this section through potentially outdated downstream schematics I found online. If any Z2103/Z2105 enthusiasts have recommendations, I'd be pleased to receive them and expedite the additions as soon as possible.

Please also contact members of staff for moving relevant threads into this new section. Thank you Farroukh for your suggestion some time ago. We hope the community receives it well.

Joe B
02-25-2015, 01:36 AM
Dear members,

Very pleased to announce we've added the R1b-Z2103/Z2105 section (http://www.anthrogenica.com/forumdisplay.php?147-R1b-Z2103-Z2105) to the forum.

We are open to further subclade breakdowns within this section. This subclade is beyond my expertise and I've refrained from furnishing this section through potentially outdated downstream schematics I found online. If any Z2103/Z2105 enthusiasts have recommendations, I'd be pleased to receive them and expedite the additions as soon as possible.

Please also contact members of staff for moving relevant threads into this new section. Thank you Farroukh for your suggestion some time ago. We hope the community receives it well.


Thank you very much for creating Forum: R1b-Z2103/Z2105 (http://www.anthrogenica.com/forumdisplay.php?147-R1b-Z2103-Z2105). Most of the relevant threads can be found in Forum: R1b Early Subclades (http://www.anthrogenica.com/forumdisplay.php?51-R1b-Early-Subclades). Here are some of the R1b-Z2103 specific threads. There are more.

http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?1479-Z2103-(R1b-P25-gt-L389-gt-P297-gt-M269-gt-L23-gt-Z2103)-amp-Z2105
http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?1834-R1b1a2a1-(L23-)-L23EE-Type-Z2103-Predicted_-DYS-389II-31-33-DYS-464AB-14-15
http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?1586-From-R-L23-L150-to-R-PF7580-amp-L584
http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?112-L277-and-L584
http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?3141-R1b-CTS9219
http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?2246-Z2103-Z2104-Z2105-Z2106-Z2107-Z2108-Z2109-Z2110-amp-Sanger-sequencing
http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?1096-From-R-L150-to-R-CTS7822
http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?3705-On-the-Armenian-R-L23
http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?2762-New-quot-Bristol-Channel-DNA-quot-project-at-FTDNA-with-secondary-focus-on-CTS7822
http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?2632-CTS7822-Z2110-and-CTS9219-ISOGG-Haplotree-Listing-Application
http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?1501-R-Z2103-amp-Early-R1b-an-Enigma-of-Western-Europe
http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?1722-R1b-L277-1*-R1b-M269-gt-L23-gt-L150-gt-Z2103-gt-Z2105-gt-L277-1*-2014
http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?2483-R1b-Z2103-gt-CTS7763-CTS8966
http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?876-New-study-on-R1b-Ht35-published-by-Lucotte
http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?78-L277-back-on-the-table

DMXX
02-25-2015, 01:43 AM
Thank you very much for creating Forum: R1b-Z2103/Z2105 (http://www.anthrogenica.com/forumdisplay.php?147-R1b-Z2103-Z2105). Most of the relevant threads can be found in Forum: R1b Early Subclades (http://www.anthrogenica.com/forumdisplay.php?51-R1b-Early-Subclades). Here are some of the R1b-Z2103 specific threads. There are more.


Thank you, Joe B. These fifteen threads have all been moved to their new homes (1 week expiring redirect set into place).