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View Full Version : Speculative map of E1b1b1 (M35) and its subclades



Farroukh
12-30-2013, 05:28 AM
http://i023.radikal.ru/1207/f3/e562f5c5cc1dt.jpg (http://radikal.ru/F/i023.radikal.ru/1207/f3/e562f5c5cc1d.jpg)

http://www.thegeneticatlas.com/E1b1b1.png

jdean
12-30-2013, 12:22 PM
My father in-law is E-M84*

His family came from Somerset, England and he has a very close 37 loci match from the immediate area fairly conclusively proving his ancestry to the immediate area back to the early 19th C. After that he's more distant 67 loci matches with a surname associated with the Devon, Somerset border suggesting his ancestry's been in the area for a good few hundred years but he also has a more distant speculative match with somebody with Middle Eastern ancestry.

Speculating how his ancestry arrived in Britain is something that amuses both of us.

rms2
12-30-2013, 01:23 PM
One of my second great grandfathers was E-V13. He was the father of one of my paternal great grandmothers. I know he was E-V13 through contact with a distant cousin, the y-dna descendant of my second great grandfather's brother.

His haplotype is one of the two in "Group J" at the Holmes DNA Project (http://morrisondna.x10.bz/holmes/public_html/HolmesDNAProject.htm).

My mdka in that line came from Northern Ireland, but the line probably originated in England, since the surname is Holmes.

Here is a photo of my E-V13 second great grandfather, John Holmes, in his Confederate uniform.

http://imageshack.us/a/img94/1577/johnholmes.th.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/94/johnholmes.jpg/)

Farroukh
12-31-2013, 04:03 AM
E-M84 and E-L792 are the typical subclades of E-M34 in Europe. They ancestors were Jews or Phoenicians or Armenians or more ancient migrants from Anatolia.

jdean
12-31-2013, 10:45 AM
E-M84 and E-L792 are the typical subclades of E-M34 in Europe. They ancestors were Jews or Phoenicians or Armenians or more ancient migrants from Anatolia.

We've always guessed a Jewish connection since the matches seem to suggest a connection in the vicinity of Somerset possibly going back over the last 6-800 if not a little more but with potential connections in the Middle East after that, though I've just noticed similar Polish matches on Semargl.

If you're interested he's the only Wookey in the FTDNA database so is easily found on Semargl

http://www.semargl.me/en/dna/ydna/search/

Stellaritic
12-31-2013, 12:46 PM
If we rule out the euro subclades,the map would correlate with the expansion of Afro-Asiatic languages,IMO.

Stellaritic
12-31-2013, 11:03 PM
My father in-law is E-M84*

His family came from Somerset, England and he has a very close 37 loci match from the immediate area fairly conclusively proving his ancestry to the immediate area back to the early 19th C. After that he's more distant 67 loci matches with a surname associated with the Devon, Somerset border suggesting his ancestry's been in the area for a good few hundred years but he also has a more distant speculative match with somebody with Middle Eastern ancestry.

Speculating how his ancestry arrived in Britain is something that amuses both of us.

Your father in-law and I are in the same cluster on Haplozone.

Farroukh
01-01-2014, 08:07 AM
map would correlate with the expansion of Afro-Asiatic languages,IMO.
Yes, it could.
Earliest speakers of Proto-Afro-Asiatic R1b1c-V88 migrated in Africa from Levant and assimilated aboriginal E1b1b1 peoples, who spoke Niger-Congo or Nilo-Saharan Proto-languages.

Stellaritic
01-01-2014, 09:49 AM
Yes, it could.
Earliest speakers of Proto-Afro-Asiatic R1b1c-V88 migrated in Africa from Levant and assimilated aboriginal E1b1b1 peoples, who spoke Niger-Congo or Nilo-Saharan Proto-languages.

Interesting !
What makes you think early PAA speakers were R1b1bc ?

The Semitic branch is the only Asian branch of the AA family group,the latter predates both the Neolithic Revolution and V88 .

Farroukh
01-01-2014, 10:30 AM
What makes you think early PAA speakers were R1b1bc ?
PAA is the Nostratic language and it has the same origin as the other languages of Eurasia.
1145
It has no relations with African languages. Therefore I think PAA separated from Nostratic in Levant (Wadi an-Natuf) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natufian_culture) and moved in Northern Africa with R1b1c1-V88.

Human Y chromosome haplogroup R-V88: a paternal genetic record of early mid Holocene trans-Saharan connections and the spread of Chadic languages (http://vizachero.com/R1b1/V88.pdf)

Semitic is the later back migration from Africa by E1b1b1. Also there is the Nilotic influence on Pra-Semitic.

Stellaritic
01-16-2014, 07:34 PM
PAA is the Nostratic language and it has the same origin as the other languages of Eurasia.
1145
It has no relations with African languages. Therefore I think PAA separated from Nostratic in Levant (Wadi an-Natuf) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natufian_culture) and moved in Northern Africa with R1b1c1-V88.

Human Y chromosome haplogroup R-V88: a paternal genetic record of early mid Holocene trans-Saharan connections and the spread of Chadic languages (http://vizachero.com/R1b1/V88.pdf)

Semitic is the later back migration from Africa by E1b1b1. Also there is the Nilotic influence on Pra-Semitic.

There were attempts to connect PAA to other language families (especially PIE),but they eventually failed !

I think the ancestors of modern day Chadic languages speakers didn't speak an AA language when they back-migrated to Africa as it is the case with Basques because they speak an isolated language not related to any language including IE languages yet they carry typical western European haplogroups.
Of all AA languages,Chadic is the odd one with its V88 all the other branches including Semitic have high frequencies of M35.1 among their speakers.

Farroukh
01-26-2014, 10:47 AM
Dear Stellaritic, the last hypothesis talks about AA as a Nostratic language.

FaerieQueene
06-24-2014, 02:34 AM
I've seen ydna charts just like that one before for R1b and R1a from FTDNA, it's nice for me to finally see the E1b1b1-M35 version. I even saved the picture and imagelink. I'm an M84 on my paternal line(just found out two days ago that I'm in the B cluster).

Agamemnon
06-24-2014, 10:14 AM
I've seen ydna charts just like that one before for R1b and R1a from FTDNA, it's nice for me to finally see the E1b1b1-M35 version. I even saved the picture and imagelink. I'm an M84 on my paternal line(just found out two days ago that I'm in the B cluster).

B cluster? That's the Jewish cluster, right?

Interesting, this is pretty similar to what we're seeing with J1, where Palestinian & Leb Christians are the closest to the Kohen clade (they belong to their own branch, a para-clade of YSC234).

@Farroukh:

I wouldn't blindly subscribe to the Nostratic theory if I were you, it's quite controversial to say the least... Anyway, E-M35.1, J1-P58 and T-M70 all seem to correlate with AA dispersals and I'm ready to bet that they were all to be found amongst AA speakers at some of AA's earliest stages.
Of course E-M35.1 clades prove to be the best fit, but it isn't a perfect one either.
As far as R1b-V88 goes, it seems to have spread with the introduction of pastoralism in Africa... And in my book, that probably came about with AA speakers.

FaerieQueene
06-24-2014, 10:35 AM
B cluster? That's the Jewish cluster, right?That's correct. My paternal side is full Palestinian-Christian and I was placed in the B cluster(Jewish) of M84. http://www.haplozone.net/wiki/index.php?title=E-M34#E1b1b1c1a_.28E-M84.29


Interesting, this is pretty similar to what we're seeing with J1, where Palestinian & Leb Christians are the closest to the Kohen clade (they belong to their own branch, a para-clade of YSC234).I have 23andme RF matches that are exactly that.



Can't say I'm surprised by any of this in the least. In fact I was excited to have confirmation and theory substantiation: Christians genetically represent a pre-Islamic Middle East, and Palestinian-Christians in particular should hypothetically be the direct descendants of Jewish converts to Christianity 2000 years ago.

Agamemnon
06-24-2014, 10:45 AM
That's correct. My paternal side is full Palestinian-Christian and I was placed in the B cluster(Jewish) of M84. http://www.haplozone.net/wiki/index.php?title=E-M34#E1b1b1c1a_.28E-M84.29

I've always been interested in E-M34, it's the most common haplogroup in my RF matches (by far, and this is very important for someone who comes from an inbred community as quantity means something) and I strongly suspect my Crimean Jewish great-grandfather carried it (unfortunately, there are no male relatives left, they all died in the Holocaust... Crimean Jewry was basically wiped out during WW2).

Truth be told, it's a fascinating haplogroup!


I have 23andme RF matches that are exactly that.


Can't say I'm surprised by any of this in the least. In fact I was excited to have confirmation and theory substantiation: Christians genetically represent a pre-Islamic Middle East, and Palestinian-Christians in particular should hypothetically be the direct descendants of Jewish converts to Christianity 2000 years ago.

Indeed it isn't very surprising especially given the fact that J1-L147.1 and E-M34 seem to have spread together so the similarities between their respective phylogenies just reinforce that link.

I especially agree with the statement in bold, and I think it holds true for Copts as well.

Dave123
01-28-2015, 11:52 AM
When I first discovered that I was E-V13 via Genebase in British Columbia, with paternal lineage from Northwest Germany I was intrigued. My closest Y match with ancestry from a village only 6 miles from my own ancestral village of Ostereistedt, but with surname Cordes, instead of Schroeder, theorized that our common ancestor may have come from southern France.

kingjohn
01-29-2017, 03:26 PM
great work by maciamo
he used the yfull to update the e1b1b1 tree/branches in his site
and it looks good kudos ... :)
http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_E1b1b_Y-DNA.shtml
regards
adam

firemonkey
01-29-2017, 04:54 PM
According to Yfull I am E-Z16664 which is under E-L17.


Y-Haplogroup: E-Z16664
Terminal SNPs: BY5227/Z16664 • BY5231/Z16665

Someone from the double helix forum http://community.haplozone.net/index.php has me as the only E-BY5220 so far. FTDNA has me as E-BY5219.
It all gets a little confusing.