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View Full Version : The territories of the Somali clans, and their historic migrations and wanderings.



VytautusofAukstaitija
08-02-2019, 09:40 PM
This is a 1930's map of the borders of the clans and sub-lineages.

32134

32135

A Somali clan shows it's claim to a land by owning control of it's wells. Because control of wells means control of food and the most critical resource for the Somalis: the largest camel population in the world.

Since the 1920's, nothing huge has changed outside of a stretch of the NW Somali frontier bordering the Hararghe Oromo and Afar being cleansed of it's Somali population and swallowed into Oromo and Afar territory. With the Afar, it has been a back and forth, as not only the Hararghe Highlands, but likely up until the Awash river and the Chercher mountains - the latter which was only recently inhabited by Somalis. Most Somali expansion - mostly fueled by men from the Isse subclan of the Dir - has been thus been targeted towards territory that was in Somali hands prior to a likely Afar expansion from towards the north deeper into the Afar desert and the Dahlak archipelago - a place nearby to where I'd guess the early Saho-Afar expanded from southwards beginning around 1000 years ago.

In the south during the period from 1830 to 1920, a large territory was conquered by the massive exodus from the northern Somali plain, a violent expansion of sub-lineages from all the major clans except the Isaaq took part. The Isaaq themselves - especially the Garhajis - were driving from towards the Berbera littoral and plunging towards the eastern Haud, driving several Ogaden subclans southwards. Other Ogaden and Hawiye subclans like the Auliyahan and Degodiye crossed the Shabelle and consolidated a pan-Somali front and proceeded to drive and dismantle the Arsi Oromo closer to Bale.

In the south - Harti clansmen from the Dhulbahante, Majerteen, and Warsangeli subclans due to severe conflict and famine during the period took to the seas and landed 1000 miles south in beyond the Benadir, landing nearby to the Bajuun archipelago, from a arid, highland desert climate to a lush, dense tropical jungle enviroment. The quickly allied with incoming Darood clans such as the Auliyahan, who decades earlier had just crossed the Shabelle and whose septs had now established themselves in former Boran and Wardey Oromo territory. The seaborne Harti clansmen drove inland with their camels, as the a large host of Somali subclans such as the Auliyahan and Degodiye and Marehan and Ajuraan after 100's of miles and decades of migration from the northern/central Somali heartlands, began to meet at the terminus of their migrations, congregating around El-Wak.

It seems in the wake of this expansion, Somali clans came into contact with not only the Arsi, Wardei, and Boran Oromo, but had established contact with non-Swahili Bantus at the Tana confluence, where they vassalized the Pokomo and used their canoes to ferry Somali warriors across the Tana, and began raiding the Kamba and ever closer to the environs of Mount Kenya. Nilotic groups such as the Masai and Samburu had come into contact with the Somali in this period, and there was definite raiding between these groups and especially the Auliyahan and Degodiye and Muhammed Zubeyr. These Nilotic herder groups were usually dissuaded by Boran cavalry and military superiority in the northern Frontier and the eastern shore of lake Turkana, as we see in the defeat and annihilation of the Laikipia Masai at the hands of the Borana.

The earliest Somali prescence perhaps established in the northern frontier would be the Walemuge Ajuran, and other Ajuran subgroups who likely fled the fall of their empire at the hands of a collective revolt by the Somali clans against Ajuran tyrannical conduct. These Somalis due to their weak position became vassalized by the Boran for around 200 years, but as the tides turned these Ajuran found salvation at the hands of incoming Somali clans, who assimilated now partially Oromized Ajuran, and they were brought back into the fold. These very Ajuran essentially formed a wedge and became the spearpoint of the Somali advance into Southeast Africa.

The Isaaq - especially of the Habr Yunis and Habr Toljec'lo - began expanding into Dhulbahante territory towards the southeast, and had driven as far as the Nugaal plain. In addition, more Darandoole Hawiye subclans were pouring into the Benadir littoral, as the Murusade and Abgaal fought for supremacy over the region.

Several Rahanweyne groups had formed a bulwark against the incoming northern Somali clans, centered on the Geledi clan. The Geledi successfully held out against the incoming groups, and managed to emerge as the dominant power of the southern Somali territories - including the Benadir. While Omani Zanzibar had nominal influence and control of parts of the Benadir, the Geladi sultans maintained true power over the coastal cities.

A few decades earlier in the 1700's, the Majerteen Sultanate had plunged into a civil war as several Majerteen clans refused to acknowledge the kingship of the Osman Mahmoud Majerteen subclan. This led to an exodus, as some clans went into the highlands of Bari, others as far as Djibouti, and others to the trans-Juba/Shabelle southern Somali hinterland. Many Majerteen and Dishiishe clansmen and their families fled to Arabia, and joined the Somali expatriate community there. But this wave of Somali migration into the Arabian peninsula had no entrepreneurial character, and was a wave of tribal migration as these incoming Somali migrants settled in tribal areas of southern Arabia, settling in Mahra, Dhofar, and Azd Uman. Within a few generations, these Somali immigrant clans had established themselves as amongst the more recognized tribal groups in the Dhofar area.

The Shiekhaal also in this period seemed to have completed their long migration from the eastern Hararghe highlands and towards the Benadir and Indian Ocean. Some Dhulbahante groups also migrated southwards into the inland Galbeed. Hararghe Oromos also seemed to have taken control of several vital mountain passes in the Hararghe highlands, and driven out several Somali clans out of the eastern portion of the highalands. The Isse subclan were pushing into Afar territory, and fierce fights and skirmishes occurred between the satellite camel camps of the Afar and Somali. Weirdly enough in this period, some Somali clansmen had married into the Afar around the Gulf of Tadjoura, and grew large enough to become subclans and also began to fight against the incoming Somali - an somewhat brother versus brother conflict.

I'm find myself much more interested in where all the Somali clans were prior to 1300. It was clearly the north, but what territory can be cleanly delimited as Somali vs non-Somali? the Garre were as far inland nearby Qelafo a few hundred years earlier. I believe Somali territory in the late 900's was delimited by the Awash river to the east, the Chercher Highlands, and as southern border far south as the Shabelle, and likely north of Adale as well. I don;t know how far north past Zeila the Somalis extended, but I'd believe as far north as the Gulf of Tadjoura at least.

Omaar
08-03-2019, 03:34 AM
The Origins of the Galla and somali BY HERBERT S. LEWIS

"The first clear written reference to any Galla or Somali group is found in
the writings of the thirteenth-century Arab geographer, Ibn Sa'id. Ibn
Sa'id says that Merca, a town on the southern Somali coast near the Shebeli
River, was the 'capital of the Hawiye country', which consisted of more
than fifty villages (or districts or tribes).3 This area is today the home of the
Hawiye Somali clan-family, so there is good reason to assume that the Merca
region has been occupied continuously by the same Somali group for the
past 700 years. In fact, we can probably extend this to 800 years, for the
geographer al-Idrisi remarks that Merca was the region of the 'Hadiye' in the twelfth century. It is quite likely that the extant texts contain an
error, and that it should be 'Hawiye', as Guillain, Schleicher, and Cerulli"

VytautusofAukstaitija
08-03-2019, 10:38 PM
The Origins of the Galla and somali BY HERBERT S. LEWIS

"The first clear written reference to any Galla or Somali group is found in
the writings of the thirteenth-century Arab geographer, Ibn Sa'id. Ibn
Sa'id says that Merca, a town on the southern Somali coast near the Shebeli
River, was the 'capital of the Hawiye country', which consisted of more
than fifty villages (or districts or tribes).3 This area is today the home of the
Hawiye Somali clan-family, so there is good reason to assume that the Merca
region has been occupied continuously by the same Somali group for the
past 700 years. In fact, we can probably extend this to 800 years, for the
geographer al-Idrisi remarks that Merca was the region of the 'Hadiye' in the twelfth century. It is quite likely that the extant texts contain an
error, and that it should be 'Hawiye', as Guillain, Schleicher, and Cerulli"

This always confused me. As most of the more elderly branches of the core Hawiye were far to the north, such as the Darandoole (who migrated south in the past 400 years), and the Habr Gedir. The former group in fact have their subclan founder buried in the north. But I expect at least some Darandoole Hawiye to have migrated with the Ajuran further south closer to the Shabelle, as the maternal uncles of the Abgaal clan are said to be the Ajuran themselves, as Abgaal himself had a Ajuran mother of the notable Garen family, who lead the Ajuran conquest of the south.

I always expected the earliest Somalis to have showed up in the southern Somali territories past the Shabelle by 900 AD - I should edit my post on this. I chose 1300 simply because beyond that point it gets very hazy in the historical records on the distribution of the Somali clans.

VytautusofAukstaitija
08-03-2019, 11:51 PM
One thing I wish we could start testing the old clan founders for their ydna, as most of their burials are still known. Despite it's age, E-Y163928 looks like some sort of Harti lineage, and it has the same age as the Djibouti Somali (or maybe Madaxweyne Dir) T1a1a2b2 mrca, which was also around 750 years.

The Xawadle also have a recent E-V32 mrca, I'll have to look that up.

Those T1a1a2b Arabs seem to have Somali or Horn African male ancestors at some point, similar to some of the E-V32 Arabs. Alot seem to come from Nejdi Bedouin tribes.

VytautusofAukstaitija
08-05-2019, 11:01 PM
This map of the Somali territories is largely the same as the 1930's maps.

32185

But the problem is they make the Garre and Sheikhaal as Hawiye, when the former is never considerd Hawiye and sometimes still have their old ethnic conciousness, whereas the latter is a regular Somali clan that was never Hawiye. The Ajuran and Degodiye are more acceptable as being mentioned as Hawiye, but nonethless, the Gaalje'el and Degodiye and Ajuran and Xawadle are really independent, stand alone clans of their own right.

It's weird how the Aweer (Boni), a remnant hunter-gatherer group with alot of non-HG ancestry are mentioned as Garre when not only are they ethnically distinct, but are only connected to them by vassalage and servitude, and speak a Garre dialect.

VytautusofAukstaitija
08-05-2019, 11:52 PM
To have a good idea of what Somalis of this period looked like - prior to the heavy cultural Arabization that took place in the later colonial period throughout the Somali territories - here are photos from the period in focus:

VytautusofAukstaitija
08-05-2019, 11:57 PM
3219132192321933219432195

VytautusofAukstaitija
08-06-2019, 12:05 AM
3219632197322003219832199

NetNomad
08-10-2019, 02:47 PM
One thing I wish we could start testing the old clan founders for their ydna, as most of their burials are still known. Despite it's age, E-Y163928 looks like some sort of Harti lineage, and it has the same age as the Djibouti Somali (or maybe Madaxweyne Dir) T1a1a2b2 mrca, which was also around 750 years.


The Harti clan were mentioned in the Futuh-al-Habash written in the 1500s as a clan able to send out their own soldiers by that time. So the TMRCA of 800-700 years before present makes perfect sense.

VytautusofAukstaitija
08-13-2019, 09:23 PM
It seems the early Somali Imperial era (700's-1200's) was the period where all the large Somali subclans have their founders, and their major expansions and incubations ratio-wise within the Somali population. The Isaaq subclans will in all likelihood have their founders in this period as well, and they also were also probably fielding units during the Conquest - probably being the Habr Maqadi of the Futuh. The Xawadle founder E-V32 is probably from this time period as well, and the same is true for the Hiraab, Biimal, and Gaalje'el. All these clans and subclans founders were probably near contemporaries and possibly all are buried in the northern territories.

So far we have it confirmed for the Isse and the Harti, if this holds with the Isaaq subclans and other Hawiye, Dir, Xawadle, Ajuraan, Degodiye, and Gaalje'el - as historical evidence would suggest - what do you think would cause this explosion in this early Middle Ages/Somali Imperial age? My answer is that I take it this age was one of great conflict and troubles caused by both enviromental and Habesha expansionist pressures, one that necessitated a pan-Somali collectivization, which manifest in an age of statebuilding and sophisticated statecraft, fueling the rise of two Somali states under the rule of two theocratic Somali lineages in a first-of-equals rulership. This would explain:

1) the rise of a cultivated class of early Imperial era Somali military statesmen hailing from all the clans, men who served as leaders of the subclans, and who were the governing and administrative class of the empire and served as it's foremost commanders of its field armies and commanderies - the Ughazes and Gerads - whose orientation was in upholding the first-amongst-equals rule of the reigning Somali subclan, and preventing the outbreak of devastating blood feuds between the Somali clans that would threaten the cohesiveness of the state, who fought to maintain the pan-Somali peace amongst the Somali clansmen, and whom had a very aggressive, militaristic, and expansionist drive towards the hated Habesha.

2) the peace and likely alliance between the two dominant Islamic states of the Horn, the Ajuraan of the south, and the Adalites of the north. The Ajuraan probably backed their Somali Adalite kinsmen of the north probably through economic means, seeing as they were the more economically robust and richer of the two, whereas the Adalites were marginally more militaristic.

One of the main drivers of the issues of that period has to do with climatology, as the MWP did cause a drier and likely hotter climate in the Horn, and this probably had a outsized impact on the northern Somali territories. The plains of the Haud and Nugaal were probably unable to support such large camel herds, and likely warfare partially caused by this overpopulation may have triggered a southwards expansion just as we see nascent state-building in the northern Somali territory, a tradition which may have been carried southward with the Ajuraan migration past the Shabelle frontier, setting the stage for the conquest and consolidation of the southern Somali territories under the Garen family and the Ajuraan Empire.

The exodus out of the north may have been more peaceful if later pan-Somali migrations are good evidence, since the Ajuraan and Biimaal may have arrived together with Hawiye subclans like the Gugundabe, and thus the Somali migration and conquest of the southern territories may have been composed of confederations of subclans from several clans, which usually indicates a state of reigning peace between the Somali clans outside of small blood feuds, as we see in the expansion into the northerly sections of the northern frontier and Libin by a pan-Somali front composed of the Harti, Ogadeen, Degodiye, Jidle, and Ajuraan.


The Harti clan were mentioned in the Futuh-al-Habash written in the 1500s as a clan able to send out their own soldiers by that time. So the TMRCA of 800-700 years before present makes perfect sense.

Only 300-200 years from the Harti founder, and the Harti Darood were already large enough to be sending Harti clansmen into the Somali military expeditions into Ethiopia. The Darood subclan had already developed a reputation of being "stoic, stolid swordsmen", and functioned as an elite vanguard infantry in the Conquest. Here's the snippets you likely referenced:

"The he [the imam] tied a red standard to a spear and entrusted it to his brother in law Mattan Utman Kaled, the Somali, their chieftain, their knight, and the most courageous, the bravest of them all. There rallied to him 110 knights and 3,000 infantry, along with the tribe of the Harti, the tribe of Jairan, and the tribe of Mazra, all of whom were Somalis."

And

"....may God have mercy upon him, says: On the left was the Somali tribe of Harti, from the people of Mait: a people not given to yielding. There were three-hundred of them, famous among the infantry as stoic, stolid swordsmen. In the same way there was the tribe of Yibbcri, around four- hundred infantrymen, archers. So the imam attached them to the five-hundred who held the centre, saying to them,‘Hold your positions; don't budge, any one of you.’ The tribe of Girri were all horsemen, renowned as riders"

The Harti are mentioned explicitly as a people of Mait, which is our contemporary Maydh - the old town where the entire Isaaq patriarch is buried, and only located around 130 miles from Haylaan, the old site where the Darood patriach is buried. Nearby is historic ruins of Qa'ableh, the burial ground of Harti himself. The Dir are likely to have inhabited the region, as both patriarchs Isaaq and Daroods wives, the matriarchs Donbira and the lady of the Magaadle Dir were Dir clanswomen, and the Darood matriarch Donbira is buried along with Darood in Haylaan.

This shows that Maydh was one of major hearths of the early Imperial era Somali subclans (700's - 1200's), and a dispersal point. The Hiraab Hawiye and their famous subclans also had their start in the Nugaal valley and the plains of Sool and Sanaag, as the patriarch Hiraab along with his sons are also all said to be buried in Sanaag, with the sons of Hiraab having lived nearby their near contemporary Harti, and his sons.

This, along with the long-lineaged Karanle and Gugundabe Hawiye subclans of the extreme northwest of the northern Somali territories, whose territory extends into deep what is now Oromia, and the formerly Somali lands all the way east of Meiso as well as the bordering areas in the current borders of the Somali region. The Karanle and Gugundabe certianly took part in one of the several exodus out of the northern territories into the south, as the famous scions of the Gugundabe, the Baadi'adde, the nomad clansmen who once dominated the metropolitan Benadir and its hinterland, and who lorded over the urbane Arabo-Persian Benadiri, whom they probably governed under Ajuraan appointment. It is very likely that the Hawiye mentioned by Ibn Said and Al-Idrisi in the 12th century were these very Baadi'adde, along with their inland clansmen - the Jejele and Jidle who inhabited the trans-Juba. It is also likely that the Somali lineages present in the Benadiri are from the Baadi'adde and other Gugundabbe, as it is the amongst the ranks of old Benadiri clans that the we see a large share of Benadiri lineages who claim Somali founders, from the Ajuraan and Hawiye subclan. This was a period where the Somalis were likely heavily outnumbered but the motly mix of Samaale and Arabo-Persian Benadiri peoples and subgroups, and the Baadi'adde and other Somali subclans did not have the manpower to settle the Benadiri cities and towns and demographically displace the Benadiri, as all available Somali manpower was focused on furthering Somali interests in the newly conquered southern territories of the Benadir and trans-Juba, and ensure and cement continued Somali domination of newly conquered territories and its non-Somali peoples. The Somalis were an immigrant warrior aristocratic caste of nomads who had to rely on the unity of the Somali subclans and their collective manpower to put down any attempt of losing their newly conquered territory and newly formed empire. This probably explains how different Somali subclans and clans ruled over different areas under Ajuraan sovereignty, as a means of sodlifying power through delegating military and socio-political matters to their fellow Somalis. I think because of this that the sultan Ibn Batuta met in Mogadishu was a Baadi'adde clansman.

The Gugundabe, Hiraab, and Karanle Hawiye subclans spearheaded along with other Somali subclans must have had two different migration corridors, one from westerly sections of the northern Somali territories via the Shabelle, the old homeland of a section of the Hawiye, and another thrusting from the central and easterly portions of the northern Somali territories, from Sanaag/Sool and Bari. The Shabelle corridor likely the migration route the Gugundabe took from their hearth in the northwest frontier of the Somali territories, with the Hiraab taking the easterly route southwards from the Nugaal valley and Mudug. One migration likely preceded the other, and as the most notable matriarchs of the Hiraab were Karanle and Ajuraan, both named Fadumo, and the mother of Hiraab himself was said to be Karanle, it most likely the Baadi'adde and perhaps the other Gugundabe were the first group, as the Karanle preceded the existence of Hiraab, and the Baadi'adde were probably the first to depart from the northwestern Somali frontier.

The Hawiye subclans of Adal, likely partially of the Karanle, were also sending troops for the Adalite field armies, as mentioned by Shihab al-Din:

"At this the companions of the imam screamed out, saying, ‘The infidels have tricked us; they are after the livestock,’ whereupon the imam split his forces into two divisions: one he entrusted to Garad Ahmusa, composed of the Somali spearmen of the Marraihan, the Gorgorah and the Hawiya; around one-thousand of them from among the most famous spearmen. And from the soldiers bearing shields, the same number. And about forty knights, amongst whose leaders were al-Kusem Nor, Garad Nasr, Del Sagad the knight of Sim, Garad Ahmadus, son of the emir Mahfuz, Farasaham Satut, and about forty other knights like them"

The likely hearths of the Karanle and Gugundabe is also mentioned in the futuh, as we see outright mention of Hawiye clan territory in the western fringes of the Adalite state:

"The sharifs reached him in the region of the Hawiya where he was. He greeted them courteously, and sent back with them the horses and the blood-money"

It is strongly possible that there were not just a single wave of Gugundabe clansmen that migrated southwards, but several, as we see in the migration of the Jidle Murulle southwards into the northern frontier, were they served as one of the main subclans of the pan-Somali coalition into the northern frontier and Libin.

afbarwaaqo
08-21-2019, 06:31 AM
To have a good idea of what Somalis of this period looked like - prior to the heavy cultural Arabization that took place in the later colonial period throughout the Somali territories - here are photos from the period in focus:

we got more islamic, we've had some cultural influences from the arabs but nothing too drastic to call it heavy arabization tbh we still have our language and cushitic somali culture but with some outside influences mostly due to trade, we're a predominantly muslim nation so i guess some would confuse islamic elements of the culture with arab culture

Ellerbe
08-22-2019, 08:45 AM
we got more islamic, we've had some cultural influences from the arabs but nothing too drastic to call it heavy arabization tbh we still have our language and cushitic somali culture but with some outside influences mostly due to trade, we're a predominantly muslim nation so i guess some would confuse islamic elements of the culture with arab culture

Yea it seems Ethiopians and Somalis have similar cultures despite one being Muslim and the other Christian.

afbarwaaqo
08-23-2019, 03:08 AM
Yea it seems Ethiopians and Somalis have similar cultures despite one being Muslim and the other Christian.

true you'll find linguistic and cultural similarities between us and ethiopian groups such as the oromo

VytautusofAukstaitija
09-07-2019, 07:29 PM
Yea it seems Ethiopians and Somalis have similar cultures despite one being Muslim and the other Christian.

Not at all - if by Ethiopian you mean Ethiosemites/Habesha, there is no such similarity; they are very dissimilar anyway you look at it. Are Germans and Kazakhs similar? They must be by whatever standard you're qualifying that statement with.

Culturally the two peoples couldn't be more opposite. If you want, I can break down the obvious:

Subsistence-wise, Ethiosemites/Habeshas are intensive farmers with a few Highland agropastoralists who engage more heavily herding sheep and goat and cattle, more similar to migration period continental Germanics - with an exception for the Tigre. Somalis? the complete opposite - a purebred wholly nomadic folk. Their existence relies solely on herding camels. Farming was historically near non-existent, and a pastoral-heavy camel agropastoralism is only notable in assimilated Rahanweyn groups and in Somalis near Mount Karamada and the western reaches of the Ahmar mountains.

When it comes to primary identities and kinship, Ethiosemites/Habeshas identified more so with their immediate family lineage and village and general locality, whereas Somalis exclusively identified with their immediate subclan and the clan/subclan with little care for any locality and geography. Ethiosemite/Habesha identities are much more land-tied, and kinship focuses on immediate familial and lineage connections, than the solely lineage and clan focused Somali system. They are more patrilocal.

In regards to religion/spirituality, Ethiosemites/Habeshas are largely followers of a local form of Christianity infused with earlier Judiac and Ethiosemitic and a variety of other spiritual influences. Somalis are a Muslim people, whose non-Islamic influences are largely from the preceding presumably Waaqite faith of the Samaal peoples and maybe a residual form of Christianity. Only similarity? the pseudo-Waaqite/early Erythrean religious influences found in Ethiosemites/Habeshas and the unorthodox emphasis on sainthood, though this may not solely be from a common source in both peoples.

And finally, concerning social intercourse, Somalis are extremely egalitarian, and a social hierarchy of any sorts simply does not exist (outside the Madhibaan) and power is gained through admiration and respect. Ethiosemites/Habeshas on the other hand are much more similar to the Japanese and Sino-sphere, placing a huge empahsis on rank and heirarchy and respect for superiors. Social mobility is a free for all within Somalis, whereas it is much more traditionally rigid and filled with regulatory items within Habesha societies. Only similarity? having outcaste groups, usually associated with blacksmithing and other handicraft, and hunting, and this is not feature that necessarily shows any recent connection with Ethiosemites/Habeshas, as this custom is also found in Tuareg, Masai, Oromo and even Arabs to a degree.

We can even go into difference in looks, as it's quite clear that Somalis are much more similar phenotypically and culturally to the Rendille, Masais, Arsi Oromos, and maybe even the Toubou and Congolese Banyamulenge (Banyamulenge I've seen online) than your average Amhara, Tigray, or Gurage. Do not act ignorant of what was the ~4,000+ years of heavy admixture from a variety of populations into the Habesha, and the accompanying mass cultural and ethno-lingustic shifts and adaptations that are not found in Somalis at all, that have made Somalis and Ethiosemites/Habeshas very diverged phenotypically.

They speak a Semitic language with variety of Erythrean/Cushitic and Omotic substrates, influenced by a Ethiopian sprachbund that Somalis are outside of, and are largely relegated to a highland plateau as rural farmers engaged in intensive small-plot agriculture while living in villages, and use their locality and immediate familial and lineage as their more primary form of kinship and immediate identity. Somalis are by far mostly a lowland people who lifestyles are the complete opposite of that of the Ethiosemites/Habesha - they were almost all complete nomads who rely solely on their camel herds to survive, living in mobile tents and traversing 100's of miles of wide open plains and savannah. Their kingdoms and states were ruled by leaders who were merely first amongst equals, something that is not really seen Ethiopian/Habesha sociopolitics.

For most of their history, Ethiosemites/Habeshas toiled as land-tied Highland peasant farmers under several layers of autocratic rulers, starting from the local lord, a provincial ruler, and finally the Ethiopian/Aksumite Emperor/King. Somalis in comparison lived in a all-is-equal society, where everyone herded camels in addition to some goats and sheep, and moved across huge swaths of open land in unending migrations. No one was higher than another, and because everyone was equal (outside of the Madhibaan), conflict was near constant. It was a highly militarized egalitarian nomadic society, and would be completely alien to a rural agrarian or agropastoralist hierarchical one like those of Ethiosemites/Habeshas.

Even genetically, the Somali-Ethiosemite/Habesha connection is very overblown. Ethiosemites/Habeshas only share around ~60-65% of their ancestry with Somalis. It's very evident when their biggest ydna is J1-P56 and A3b2-M118, with the rest being a mix bag of all sorts of E-M35, such as E-M34 and basal E-M215 (E-M281), E-V38, J2 and traces of B and E2.

Whichever way you view it, Ethiosemites/Habeshas and Somalis are polar opposites, whether it is culturally, subsistence-wise, sociopolitically, behaviorally, and to a large degree even when it comes to looks.

If you have seen them, it's hard to mix up a Habesha and Somali, as they really don't look alike. I've met far more Masai and Chadians I've confused for a Somali than I have a Habesha - even the dark ones. The stereotypes of a large phenotypic difference between Somalis and Ethiosemites/Habeshas are largely true. Through physical anthropology may not be the best field to cite, but this gulf in appearance between Ethiosemites/Habeshas and Somalis was so sharp that many physical anthropologists thought the two groups didn't have much of a common origin whereas others simple saw it that they belonged to 2 separately diverged subgroups, with most of the belief that Ethiosemites/Habeshas were heavily shaped by admixture with Bronze Age Semitic groups, whereas Somalis and Borana Oromos were thought to be representatives of a more pure "Hamitic" type. You're average Somali would be less detected in Kigali or amongst the Masai than in Mekelle, Keren, or Butajira.

Relative to Africa-Middle East as a whole, how do Somalis and Habeshas seem similar from any major vantage point? even with the entirety of Africa considered, that stands as a very odd statement.

Ellerbe
09-08-2019, 12:13 AM
:o ok ok somalis and their neighbors have nothing at all to do with one another, am sorry if i offended you.

Numidian
09-08-2019, 02:09 AM
And finally, concerning social intercourse, Somalis are extremely egalitarian, and a social hierarchy of any sorts simply does not exist (outside the Madhibaan) and power is gained through admiration and respect. Ethiosemites/Habeshas on the other hand are much more similar to the Japanese and Sino-sphere, placing a huge empahsis on rank and heirarchy and respect for superiors. Social mobility is a free for all within Somalis, whereas it is much more traditionally rigid and filled with regulatory items within Habesha societies.

Is this true for the historical kingdoms/sultanates in Somali territory? I understand these had other ethnicities in them, but don't know much about their social structure.

NetNomad
09-09-2019, 08:08 PM
We can even go into difference in looks, as it's quite clear that Somalis are much more similar phenotypically and culturally to the Rendille, Masais, Arsi Oromos, and maybe even the Toubou and Congolese Banyamulenge (Banyamulenge I've seen online) than your average Amhara, Tigray, or Gurage. Do not act ignorant of what was the ~4,000+ years of heavy admixture from a variety of populations into the Habesha, and the accompanying mass cultural and ethno-lingustic shifts and adaptations that are not found in Somalis at all, that have made Somalis and Ethiosemites/Habeshas very diverged phenotypically.

[....]

If you have seen them, it's hard to mix up a Habesha and Somali, as they really don't look alike. I've met far more Masai and Chadians I've confused for a Somali than I have a Habesha - even the dark ones. The stereotypes of a large phenotypic difference between Somalis and Ethiosemites/Habeshas are largely true. Through physical anthropology may not be the best field to cite, but this gulf in appearance between Ethiosemites/Habeshas and Somalis was so sharp that many physical anthropologists thought the two groups didn't have much of a common origin whereas others simple saw it that they belonged to 2 separately diverged subgroups, with most of the belief that Ethiosemites/Habeshas were heavily shaped by admixture with Bronze Age Semitic groups, whereas Somalis and Borana Oromos were thought to be representatives of a more pure "Hamitic" type. You're average Somali would be less detected in Kigali or amongst the Masai than in Mekelle, Keren, or Butajira.

Relative to Africa-Middle East as a whole, how do Somalis and Habeshas seem similar from any major vantage point? even with the entirety of Africa considered, that stands as a very odd statement.

I largely disagree with the above post.

I have traveled to Kenya and have seen many of those ''Nilo-Hamitic'' tribes up close. They look nothing like Somalis, only a superficial 'East African' overlap but that's about it. I would never confuse any of them for a Somali in real life, even if they are dressed in modern clothing, which many were in urban areas of Kenya. By this I mean groups like the Turkana, Kalanejin, Maasai etc. They look distinctly ''Kenyan'' (especially because of their Bantu admixture).

About that Kigali comment, also hilarious wrong, the vast majority of the residents in Kigali are Hutu. The Tutsi are significantly in the minority and most Hutus look like Lake Victoria Bantus who are 70%+ Niger-Congo in ancestry. Most ethnic Somalis can more easily blend into Asmara over Kigali.

All these groups you have mentioned, except for the Rendille, have substantially more distant genome-wide ancestry from Somalis vs Habeshas.

As for the cultural commentary, Somalis traded and were in direct contact with highland Ethiopians more vs those tribes you mentioned of which they never heard of until recently.

PS: I am Somali.

NetNomad
09-09-2019, 11:28 PM
Somalis in comparison lived in a all-is-equal society, where everyone herded camels in addition to some goats and sheep, and moved across huge swaths of open land in unending migrations. No one was higher than another, and because everyone was equal (outside of the Madhibaan), conflict was near constant.

Another falsity. :suspicious:

The Sab (Maay) Somalis have been farmers since time immemorial and the Maxaa Somalis likely only recently (in the grand scheme of things) switched over to strict nomadism prior to being farmers and cattle herders after the introduction of the camel.

Moreover, Somalis have a class system and it is far from an egalitarian society. It is probably one of the most unequal societies on the planet. Do not confuse anarchy with social equality. Not to forget that slavery and slave trading was more widespread in Somalia than in Ethiopia.

drobbah
09-12-2019, 01:09 AM
I largely disagree with the above post.

I have traveled to Kenya and have seen many of those ''Nilo-Hamitic'' tribes up close. They look nothing like Somalis, only a superficial 'East African' overlap but that's about it. I would never confuse any of them for a Somali in real life, even if they are dressed in modern clothing, which many were in urban areas of Kenya. By this I mean groups like the Turkana, Kalanejin, Maasai etc. They look distinctly ''Kenyan'' (especially because of their Bantu admixture).

About that Kigali comment, also hilarious wrong, the vast majority of the residents in Kigali are Hutu. The Tutsi are significantly in the minority and most Hutus look like Lake Victoria Bantus who are 70%+ Niger-Congo in ancestry. Most ethnic Somalis can more easily blend into Asmara over Kigali.

All these groups you have mentioned, except for the Rendille, have substantially more distant genome-wide ancestry from Somalis vs Habeshas.

As for the cultural commentary, Somalis traded and were in direct contact with highland Ethiopians more vs those tribes you mentioned of which they never heard of until recently.

PS: I am Somali.

His idea of there being a wide difference in phenotype between Habesha and Somalis is laughable.There are plenty of Somalis I have seen including myself that have been mistakened by Habeshas,foreigners very familiar with Horners and Somalis as a Habesha/generic Ethiopian and always assume I am lying when I say I'm Somali.Surprisingly the people who correctly guess my ethnicity are the muslim Oromos lol

I remember when my cousin and I visited Berbera, the locals mistakened us as Yemenis (many there are from Hadhramawt) and I'm not joking.My cousin who is only two shades lighter than me but compared to the residents who were black as coal because of the extreme heat.According to the residents we interacted with we seemed to look like foreigners lmfao.I even remember meeting a very young attractive Somali girl from Hargeisa at the Berbera beach and she was much lighter than me.People need to understand that Somalis can have wide range of phenotypes and can depend on which region they hail from.



*Attached a baby faced photo of myself*

NetNomad
09-12-2019, 11:22 AM
drobbah

You look younger than I thought, somehow I thought you were an old wise man. :P

As for me, I almost never get mistaken for groups outside of the Horn region (I can't recall really). I have lived in very multicultural cosmopolitan areas with Africans from all over the place.

drobbah
09-12-2019, 11:59 AM
drobbah

You look younger than I thought, somehow I thought you were an old wise man. :P

I'm in my early 20s and almost always get mistakened for a high school kid lol



As for me, I almost never get mistaken for groups outside of the Horn region (I can't recall really). I have lived in very multicultural cosmopolitan areas with Africans from all over the place.
My younger brother is similar to you except no one assumes he's anything other than Somali.He's extremely tall with all the stereotypical Somali features (skinny head,darker tone and lanky). The only groups I've been mistakened for are Dominicans,Arabian Peninsula,Samoan and half south asian/half SSA mixes

GabrielZelalem
09-20-2019, 08:39 AM
The only groups I've been mistakened for are Dominicans,Arabian Peninsula,Samoan and half south asian/half SSA mixes

Me too ! There aren’t that much East Africans in France so people always tell me I look South Asian( specifically Sri lankan, or like i’m From West Indies. But even close relatives say I kinda look Sri Lankan.
Funny thing tho, in Djibouti (and even Djiboutian elders I’m not familiar with) people always assumed I’m afar haha. I personally don’t see any major difference between Somalis and afar but seems like people do

Espoir
10-13-2019, 05:06 AM
I’ve been around Somalis in Uganda, they stand out from other Horners. Videos of Afar I’ve seen look somehow similar to Somalis.
Funny how Somalis always confuse me and speak to me in the language, yet my brother and sisters always get confused for Ethiopians. I think it has to do with skin complexion and bone structure.

NetNomad
10-13-2019, 05:44 AM
Videos of Afar I’ve seen look somehow similar to Somalis.

Afars look quite Somali, but their overall genetics is more like Habeshas, which still surprises me. When I was in Djibouti I could not tell the difference between the two ethnic groups there.

Maybe it is because Afars adapted to the climate of the Danakil Triangle in the past few thousand years (which has a similar climate to Northern Somalia, if not more extreme) rather than recent ancestry between the two groups.

Espoir
10-13-2019, 05:48 AM
I largely disagree with the above post.

I have traveled to Kenya and have seen many of those ''Nilo-Hamitic'' tribes up close. They look nothing like Somalis, only a superficial 'East African' overlap but that's about it. I would never confuse any of them for a Somali in real life, even if they are dressed in modern clothing, which many were in urban areas of Kenya. By this I mean groups like the Turkana, Kalanejin, Maasai etc. They look distinctly ''Kenyan'' (especially because of their Bantu admixture).

About that Kigali comment, also hilarious wrong, the vast majority of the residents in Kigali are Hutu. The Tutsi are significantly in the minority and most Hutus look like Lake Victoria Bantus who are 70%+ Niger-Congo in ancestry. Most ethnic Somalis can more easily blend into Asmara over Kigali.

All these groups you have mentioned, except for the Rendille, have substantially more distant genome-wide ancestry from Somalis vs Habeshas.

As for the cultural commentary, Somalis traded and were in direct contact with highland Ethiopians more vs those tribes you mentioned of which they never heard of until recently.

PS: I am Somali.

Do u think these five men would pass as Somalis or Habesha or both or none?
33843
33845
33844
33846
33847
Link to video here (http://youtu.be/deTNt5Q3R38) for a closer look at those men. Navigate through the vid

NetNomad
10-13-2019, 05:58 AM
Tbh, Tutsis etc look the most like Oromos to me out of the major HOA groups. It's the height thing that makes people say Somali, but that could have been selected for by Tutsis etc recently rather than being the ancestral state.

It also makes the most sense since the E-M293 population entered the Great Lakes region from South-Central Ethiopia rather than via Somalia.

Espoir
10-13-2019, 06:02 AM
Afars look quite Somali, but their overall genetics is more like Habeshas, which still surprises me. When I was in Djibouti I could not tell the difference between the two ethnic groups there.

Maybe it is because Afars adapted to the climate of the Danakil Triangle in the past few thousand years (which has a similar climate to Northern Somalia, if not more extreme) rather than recent ancestry between the two groups.

Interesting, indeed they are quite different from Somalis. Genetically, they got interesting lineages(Y-DNA). My cousin, on 23andme has this Ethiopian match that is E-V6 and it’s very common among either Saho or Afar.

Espoir
10-13-2019, 06:09 AM
Tbh, Tutsis etc look the most like Oromos to me out of the major HOA groups. It's the height thing that makes people say Somali, but that could have been selected for by Tutsis etc recently rather than being the ancestral state.

It also makes the most sense since the E-M293 population entered the Great Lakes region from South-Central Ethiopia rather than via Somalia.
Don’t know that many Oromo but a fellow that lived with them told me that similarities are striking. Even culturally, there is an overlap. Also unlike Somalis, they are cattle pastoralists.


An Eritrean friend told me that he has 3 Eritrean matches(23andme) that are E-M293. Seems like this lineage entered the Great Lakes through Ethiopia. But imo, it came along the Nile.

NetNomad
10-13-2019, 06:15 AM
Don’t know that many Oromo but a fellow that lived with them told me that similarities are striking. Even culturally, there is an overlap. Also unlike Somalis, they are cattle pastoralists.


An Eritrean friend told me that he has 3 Eritrean matches(23andme) that are E-M293. Seems like this lineage entered the Great Lakes through Ethiopia. But imo, it came along the Nile.

Maybe the Blue Nile. I don't think that White Nile/South Sudan/Lake Turkana migration route theory for the earliest South Cushites in East Africa/Great Lakes is correct. It cannot explain their autosomal pattern (Ethiopian forager affinity along with high North African Neolithic affinity).

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/2b/White_and_Blue_Nile-en.svg/290px-White_and_Blue_Nile-en.svg.png

Espoir
10-13-2019, 06:25 AM
Maybe the Blue Nile. I don't think that White Nile/South Sudan/Lake Turkana migration route theory for the earliest South Cushites in East Africa/Great Lakes is correct. It cannot explain their autosomal pattern (Ethiopian forager affinity along with high North African Neolithic affinity).

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/2b/White_and_Blue_Nile-en.svg/290px-White_and_Blue_Nile-en.svg.png
After those PN samples from Kenya came out, I kinda gave up on the Nile hypothesis.

Alfa
10-17-2019, 10:08 PM
[QUOTE=Espoir;610191]Do u think these five men would pass as Somalis or Habesha or both or none?
33843
33845
33844
33846
33847
Link to video here (http://youtu.be/deTNt5Q3R38) for a closer look at those men. Navigate through the vid[/QUOTE


Those Banyamulenge would easly pass in the Horn like Sudan, Ethiopia may be Djibouti/Eritrea, and in Somalia, but Somali look is unique.

GabrielZelalem
10-17-2019, 11:51 PM
@Alfa Some could easily pass as somali. I understand their are few looks who are usually associated with us but somalis really do come in different shapes and shades.

drobbah
10-18-2019, 12:14 AM
This is a 1930's map of the borders of the clans and sub-lineages.

32134

32135

A Somali clan shows it's claim to a land by owning control of it's wells. Because control of wells means control of food and the most critical resource for the Somalis: the largest camel population in the world.


In the south during the period from 1830 to 1920, a large territory was conquered by the massive exodus from the northern Somali plain, a violent expansion of sub-lineages from all the major clans except the Isaaq took part. The Isaaq themselves - especially the Garhajis - were driving from towards the Berbera littoral and plunging towards the eastern Haud, driving several Ogaden subclans southwards. Other Ogaden and Hawiye subclans like the Auliyahan and Degodiye crossed the Shabelle and consolidated a pan-Somali front and proceeded to drive and dismantle the Arsi Oromo closer to Bale.

The Isaaq - especially of the Habr Yunis and Habr Toljec'lo - began expanding into Dhulbahante territory towards the southeast, and had driven as far as the Nugaal plain. In addition, more Darandoole Hawiye subclans were pouring into the Benadir littoral, as the Murusade and Abgaal fought for supremacy over the region.

I don;t know how far north past Zeila the Somalis extended, but I'd believe as far north as the Gulf of Tadjoura at least.

When it comes to the Isaaq expansions.It was primarily Garxajis (Habar Yoonis & Ciidigale),Habar Jeclo and the Jibriil Abokor of the Habar Awal.

My mother's Ciidigale subclan was part of the Garxajis coalition pushing deep into the Hawd getting into conflicts with various subclans of the Ogaden clan.Many of those Ogaden then migrated into Southern Somalia and Kenya.A Habar Yoonis by the name of Haaji Ali Sharmake took control of Zeila in 1841 and monopolized the trade for himself and was in conflict with the Emir of the Harar.

Papers by command, Volume 48
Great Britain. Parliament. House of Commons
1901


Unfortunalely, the Habr Yunis, who, it will be remembered, gave the Mullah his first looting in Ishak territory, but are now against him, and the Aidagalleh(Cidagalle) have complicated matters by fighting the Rer Ali & Rer Haroun(Reer Isaaq) over the Daror water. The fight was big one, and over 100 are said to have been killed on each side. The Habr Yunis also lost a quantity of their livestock. Daror is outside our territory in the treaties ceded to Abbysinia. Our tribes have always watered there, and for years have been in an almost chronic state of warfare with the Rer Ali & Rer Haroun(Reer Isaaq).






My clan (Jibriil Abokor) are the most Western Isaaqs which borders many clans such as the feared Cisse clan of Zeila/Djibouti,Gadabursi,Bartire and fellow Isaaqs who were always raiding and attacking us.Our main rivals were the Cisse and surprisingly the Cisse Muuse (brother of Sacad Muuse).We took land from both of them and expanded by taking more from some minor Absame clans during that historical period.We were notorious raiders and the best riders and horses in the North of Somalia/Eastern Ethiopia.


https://www.somalispot.com/attachments/raids-jpg.7530/

http://i.imgur.com/p2YKala.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/Ygn53Av.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/iflSWI2.jpg


The 19th century and very early 20th century was when Isaaq went from a minor clan to a major power in Greater Somalia.I think this intra-Somali clan conflicts is what motivated other clans to migrate toward the frontiers and defeat other pastoral ethnic groups.

GabrielZelalem
10-20-2019, 05:14 PM
Hi fellows,

Completely off topic but I was just advised to put my raw data through https://ytree.morleydna.com to know my Haplogroup. I was told it wasn't as advanced as other Y dna tests but it was enough to take a guess at my "broader Haplogroup".
I've always thought I was about to be E-V32 as the Saad Muse of Djibouti were all. But turns out I'm most likely T.

33991

Also, for some odd reasons I've always considered myself Jibriil Abokor because I was only raised by my mom as a child. But my dad is Hussein Abokor. I also thought both their abtirsis connected quite recently, and that the paternal kinship couldn't be fake.

Am I the first Habr Awal/Hussein Abokor to (possibly) be T ?

NetNomad
10-21-2019, 04:40 AM
Hi fellows,

Completely off topic but I was just advised to put my raw data through https://ytree.morleydna.com to know my Haplogroup. I was told it wasn't as advanced as other Y dna tests but it was enough to take a guess at my "broader Haplogroup".
I've always thought I was about to be E-V32 as the Saad Muse of Djibouti were all. But turns out I'm most likely T.

33991

Also, for some odd reasons I've always considered myself Jibriil Abokor because I was only raised by my mom as a child. But my dad is Hussein Abokor. I also thought both their abtirsis connected quite recently, and that the paternal kinship couldn't be fake.

Am I the first Habr Awal/Hussein Abokor to (possibly) be T ?

Interesting,

Since you already did your autosomals I'd advise you to take Y-STRs next (https://www.familytreedna.com/). Don't do a 'second opinion' autosomal test, they will mostly be the same. The holiday season is near so if you wait a bit you can get good discounts soon.

drobbah
10-21-2019, 12:04 PM
Hi fellows,

Completely off topic but I was just advised to put my raw data through https://ytree.morleydna.com to know my Haplogroup. I was told it wasn't as advanced as other Y dna tests but it was enough to take a guess at my "broader Haplogroup".
I've always thought I was about to be E-V32 as the Saad Muse of Djibouti were all. But turns out I'm most likely T.

33991

Also, for some odd reasons I've always considered myself Jibriil Abokor because I was only raised by my mom as a child. But my dad is Hussein Abokor. I also thought both their abtirsis connected quite recently, and that the paternal kinship couldn't be fake.

Am I the first Habr Awal/Hussein Abokor to (possibly) be T ?

All Habar Awal are E-V32 with very similar str results.There is only one Jibriil Abokor on familytreedna with the rest of the Sacad Muuse being from various Hussein Abokor Abokor subclans.

You got to get tested and you must ask your father what your clan is because I find it suspicious for someone to identify as a completely different clan for his entire life unless you are adopted.

https://www.familytreedna.com/public/somali?iframe=yresults

GabrielZelalem
10-21-2019, 04:47 PM
All Habar Awal are E-V32 with very similar str results.There is only one Jibriil Abokor on familytreedna with the rest of the Sacad Muuse being from various Hussein Abokor Abokor subclans.

You got to get tested and you must ask your father what your clan is because I find it suspicious for someone to identify as a completely different clan for his entire life unless you are adopted.

https://www.familytreedna.com/public/somali?iframe=yresults

No hahaha I'm not adopted ! I'm Hussein Abokor, Bah Gobo to be more specific. It's just some random family drama that made me know more about my mom's lineage than my dad's. As said beforehand, the Hussein Abokor and Jibriil Abokor are two brothers' offsprings, both of the Sacad Muuse. My parents literally consider themselves "cousins" regarding their lineages. (gross yeah)
My paternal grandfather is quite known in Djibouti as he was the first "indigenous" to the CFS general in the French Army. Literally no doubt about my (sub-sub-)tribe.


I'm definitely planning on getting one of these tests yes.

drobbah
10-21-2019, 04:54 PM
Bah Gob live as a minority with my Baha Cumar clan in Arabsiyo.My maternal grandmother's mom was Bah Gob and I have another great great grandmother who was Bah Gob.

You should take the Y-DNA test but I have no doubt you will be E-V32 like the rest of us Habar Awal as those sites can be inaccurate

GabrielZelalem
10-21-2019, 05:23 PM
Probably.
@drobbah
Do you mind testing with https://ytree.morleydna.com to see if it matches the hg you were assigned with you other tests ? That way we could see if I was just the victim of a (free) scam. :unsure: :rofl:

drobbah
10-21-2019, 06:34 PM
Probably.
@drobbah
Do you mind testing with https://ytree.morleydna.com to see if it matches the hg you were assigned with you other tests ? That way we could see if I was just the victim of a (free) scam. :unsure: :rofl:

Well that would only work if we both took the same test.If you really want to know your haplogroup take the cheapest Y-DNA test on familytreedna

NetNomad
10-29-2019, 07:13 PM
.....nvm.

GabrielZelalem
11-13-2019, 09:45 AM
Bah Gob live as a minority with my Baha Cumar clan in Arabsiyo.My maternal grandmother's mom was Bah Gob and I have another great great grandmother who was Bah Gob.

You should take the Y-DNA test but I have no doubt you will be E-V32 like the rest of us Habar Awal as those sites can be inaccurate



Got my 23andme results :

Y-DNA : T-L208
mtdna : R0a2

Surprised at morleydna's accuracy

drobbah
11-13-2019, 01:14 PM
Got my 23andme results :

Y-DNA : T-L208
mtdna : R0a2

Surprised at morleydna's accuracy
It's good to hear you got your results! Bah Gob must be an assimilated sub-clan in the Hussein Abokor tribe.Considering your clan lives in Gabiley with us, they could be just a branch of the T-L208+ Tol Jeclos who live and intermarry with us Jibriil Abokor in Gabiley region or an assimilated Dir subclan.This result means a lot to me since the village my clan comes from (Arabsiyo) is shared with your clan and I have many ancestors who were Bah Gob.

sum1
11-14-2019, 12:12 PM
Got my 23andme results :

Y-DNA : T-L208
mtdna : R0a2

Surprised at morleydna's accuracy


What were your autosomal results and neanderthal variants if you don't mind me asking.

GabrielZelalem
11-14-2019, 12:41 PM
94% somali, 5.9 Ethiopian and Eritrean. .1% broadly SSA.
120 variants

Espoir
04-05-2020, 09:17 AM
I wonder is R0a subclades are common in the Horn. I know this Rwandan Tutsi with R0a1a.

GabrielZelalem
04-07-2020, 03:45 AM
I wonder is R0a subclades are common in the Horn. I know this Rwandan Tutsi with R0a1a.

Its quite common in the Horn of Africa, maybe more prevalent in the Ethiopian Highlands. Most Horners belonging to R0a are actually R0a2, and the specific R0a2b and R0a2g are the ones that probably make up most of it.

Awale
07-01-2020, 12:12 AM
Not at all - if by Ethiopian you mean Ethiosemites/Habesha, there is no such similarity; they are very dissimilar anyway you look at it. Are Germans and Kazakhs similar? They must be by whatever standard you're qualifying that statement with.

That's hyperbolic nonsense. One group is Turkic speaking and from Central Asia and the other is Indo-European speaking and from North-Central Europe. Their cultures and ancestral origins are somewhat connected through the long history of the steppes but how is that comparable to Somalis and Habeshas who are both Afro-Asiatic speaking groups who live in the same overall region? And to top that off the Ethiosemitic languages of Habeshas have Cushitic substrates (http://anthromadness.blogspot.com/2017/08/being-more-accurate-about-substrates-in.html) and, as you know, Somali is Cushitic. This is more comparable to the difference between MENA Fellaḥin (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fellah) and Bedouins or the difference between an Arabized settled farmer and a Berber nomad and vice versa in the Maghreb.


Subsistence-wise, Ethiosemites/Habeshas are intensive farmers with a few Highland agropastoralists who engage more heavily herding sheep and goat and cattle, more similar to migration period continental Germanics - with an exception for the Tigre. Somalis? the complete opposite - a purebred wholly nomadic folk. Their existence relies solely on herding camels. Farming was historically near non-existent, and a pastoral-heavy camel agropastoralism is only notable in assimilated Rahanweyn groups and in Somalis near Mount Karamada and the western reaches of the Ahmar mountains.

You almost make it sound like our ancestors adopted this distinct subsistence style just for the sake of being different. They were mainly nomadic pastoralists out of necessity. I don't know if you've ever seen regions like Bari, Sanaag and Mudug (https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1KzchhQh3yZWou_FKPB5pAdk0ayNIGvdS) but without modern technology and know-how they're not exactly super inviting for much of anything other than nomadic pastoralism but even in such regions you could find as much as 30% of the population subsisting by other means:


Of a total population of 82,653 for the Mijertein region, 59,554 are pastoralist, 5,297 agriculturalist-pastoralist, 920 sedentary
cultivators, 9,692 fishermen and sailors, and 3,097 merchants. - Peoples of the Horn of Africa: Somali, Afar and Saho (https://drive.google.com/file/d/16JZ_J97Krn6pWh0nvYMpActnt3EqTJOX/view?usp=sharing)

Mostly pastoral nomads out of necessity but always seizing the chance to settle on the coast and fish and trade (https://drive.google.com/file/d/1q4MwuS__pk6qdkVZ31ZDV5XCrs-U-xgw/view?usp=sharing) or practice agro-pastoralism and sedentary farming where possible. And, of course, the prevalence of agro-pastoralism and sedentary farming generally increased in areas with more arable land like the riverine south and parts of the northwest toward the Highlands where you see people who either speak Coastal-Northern Somali dialects or closely related Somali languages (Maay, Tunni, Jidu etc) (https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B2ARnUeK-Y8WTkVtV2lrTkN2Y0k/view?usp=sharing) who take up sedentary farming and, from what I've noticed, social dynamics not too dissimilar at times from those in the highlands where these people tend to start caring more about local family kinship ties, where they're from and so on rather than caring as much about the intricacies of clan lineages.

And it's good you mentioned the Tigre because they're essentially just another link in the long observed chain that is "Coastal-Cushites (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barbara_(region))", as in predominantly lowland dwelling Cushitic speaking peoples who mainly subsist on pastoralism out of obvious necessity but also take up coastal settling, agro-pastoralism and settled farming where it seems worth it to do so from Southeastern Egypt down to the Somali coast. Tigres are just an Ethiosemitized break in that chain. These peoples differ from their Highland Ethiopian neighbors in terms of subsistence out of obvious necessity and the social dynamics often found among them like tribalism, a more unruly streak and greater social mobility outside of exceptions like the pseudo caste system in the Horn is just something you typically tend to see when you're looking at nomadic pastoralists Vs. sedentary farmers:


The Somali and Afar, and the Afar and Saho have traditions of common origin in the north-west corner of the Horn of Africa. All three peoples exhibit what
is basically a common culture, the material culture being almost uniform, with differences among the Saho to be attributed to Ethiopian influence. Variations in
ecology are also partly responsible for slight differences. Nomadism is the basic economy with the camel as burden animal, though among the Saho and in some parts
of southern Somalia, camels are few and oxen replace them as beasts of burden. Cultivation is practised by some of the Saho, by very few Afar, but extensively in southern
Somalia. - Peoples of the Horn of Africa: Somali, Afar and Saho (https://drive.google.com/file/d/16JZ_J97Krn6pWh0nvYMpActnt3EqTJOX/view?usp=sharing)

If most of the Somali territories were as suitable for cultivation as the Ethiopian Highlands there wouldn't be much of a subsistence difference between Somalis and Habeshas and most likely not nearly as much of a difference in social dynamics where you're obviously right that there is often a very marked split in terms of both, so much so that even medieval and classical people noticed the overall cultural differences when they separated the coastal "Berber" people from the northern highlander "Abyssinian" people in their accounts.


Subsistence-wise, Ethiosemites/Habeshas are intensive farmers with a few Highland agropastoralists who engage more heavily herding sheep and goat and cattle, more similar to migration period continental Germanics - with an exception for the Tigre. Somalis? the complete opposite - a purebred wholly nomadic folk. Their existence relies solely on herding camels.
...

Somalis are by far mostly a lowland people who lifestyles are the complete opposite of that of the Ethiosemites/Habesha - they were almost all complete nomads who rely solely on their camel herds to survive, living in mobile tents and traversing 100's of miles of wide open plains and savannah. Their kingdoms and states were ruled by leaders who were merely first amongst equals, something that is not really seen Ethiopian/Habesha sociopolitics.


In a later part of your post you show that you seem to know Somalis herd goats and sheep so I don't know why you keep exaggerating like this to help your arguments or if you're really not all that knowledgeable about Somali subsistence, livestock and demographics. Somalis herd and herded plenty of animals other than camels (https://drive.google.com/file/d/1CIkcgGpl-b4yfvHjhYopxMGbG_UDq15Y/view?usp=sharing). Namely horses, cattle, goats, sheep and donkeys. Camels are indeed the most revered (https://drive.google.com/file/d/1hks5uGxP_Z-CeK3qmmI5IPRZUBu3goHD/view?usp=sharing), horses perhaps being an exception to this rule among warriors, with the order of importance after camels more or less being equivalent to the order I named those animals in prior but camels definitely were not the only animal herded or relied on, not by a long-shot. Depending on the region they could even be usurped as pack animals by cattle and most clans even in the north tended to have more sheep and goats than camels since they were historically more crucial to many Somalis for meat:

Among meats, mutton is the favorite and dominates the use of all others; goat meat is the second most popular, with beef somewhere in the middle and camel meat being the least favorite. This order does not correlate to any perceived qualities of the meat but is mostly about availability. - Culture and Customs of Somalia, by Mohamed Diriye Abdullahi (https://books.google.com/books?id=2Nu918tYMB8C)


Sheep and goats are second to camels and cattle in the internal economy of the country, providing milk, ghee, and meat, of which, in the north at least, they are the main source.- Peoples of the Horn of Africa: Somali, Afar and Saho (https://drive.google.com/file/d/16JZ_J97Krn6pWh0nvYMpActnt3EqTJOX/view?usp=sharing)


https://i.imgur.com/0AEEftn.png

https://i.imgur.com/y2bWQ3v.png


Somalis in comparison lived in a all-is-equal society, where everyone herded camels in addition to some goats and sheep, and moved across huge swaths of open land in unending migrations.

"In addition to some goats and sheep" indeed. Not to mention the fact that, our ancestors, once you go back far enough, would have been principally cattle, goat and sheep pastoralists much like the Pastoral Neolithic folk. Camels and horses are later introductions from the Middle East. The word for camel, Geel, even seems to have an Old-South-Arabian root (https://www.academia.edu/5529034/2013_Strata_in_Semitic_loanwords_in_Northern_Somal i).


And finally, concerning social intercourse, Somalis are extremely egalitarian, and a social hierarchy of any sorts simply does not exist (outside the Madhibaan) and power is gained through admiration and respect. Ethiosemites/Habeshas on the other hand are much more similar to the Japanese and Sino-sphere, placing a huge empahsis on rank and heirarchy and respect for superiors. Social mobility is a free for all within Somalis, whereas it is much more traditionally rigid and filled with regulatory items within Habesha societies. Only similarity? having outcaste groups, usually associated with blacksmithing and other handicraft, and hunting, and this is not feature that necessarily shows any recent connection with Ethiosemites/Habeshas, as this custom is also found in Tuareg, Masai, Oromo and even Arabs to a degree.

Maasais are a Cushite admixed population who likely got that from from their Cushitic speaking ancestors and the way that system appears among Arabs and Tuaregs isn't exactly like how it is in the Horn. I think you are being a little disingenuous here. Ethiosemitic speakers are largely derived from local Cushitic speakers. Seemingly upwards of 70% of their ancestry (https://i.imgur.com/CzFxjoC.png) is of either Central, North or Highland-East Cushitic speaking origins and they likely would have inherited that custom from these groups who show it just like Somalis. It is a common Horn custom, found even among Omotic speakers, to maritally and socially ostracize blacksmiths, leather-workers, hunters and whatnot hence the Somali groups the Midgaan (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Madhiban), Tumaal (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tomal) and Yibir (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yibir) who are not too dissimilar in how they were treated historically from many of the Beta-Israel (https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?9964-Why-do-Tigrinyas-think-that-they-are-semite-when-they-look-almost-identical-to-somali&p=346058#post346058). Let's not try to act like this is some coincidental similarity.

I also find it odd that you were once highlighting the dressing style of Somalis from about a century ago and didn't take the time to notice how similar it was to the style of dress often found all over the Highlands:


https://i.imgur.com/n5Wryrl.jpg
Somalia 1889, Merka Market

https://i.imgur.com/43iIhlZ.jpg
People at the Court of King Sahle Selassie in Shewa 1847

A wider collection of past Somalis and Habeshas with some Bejas on top (https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1N77TWy230ppJOFRqooo7zxqKz64r66r7?usp=sharing)

^ No Arabs, Maasais and Tuaregs or even Rendille dressing like that. And this overall similarity in material culture wasn't something that was lost to people visiting or studying the region either. Then there's shared cuisines like Canjeero/Injera/Laxoox (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Injera#Outside_Ethiopia_and_Eritrea) which was historically a common staple among various groups in the Horn or even random shared customs like this (https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?4106-Post-a-pic-of-yourself-)&p=322715#post322715). Let's not pretend there aren't numerous shared cultural traits here that are either anciently shared or developed while Horners were interacting with each other constantly over the last several hundreds to thousands of years.


It's very evident when their biggest ydna is J1-P56 and A3b2-M118, with the rest being a mix bag of all sorts of E-M35, such as E-M34 and basal E-M215 (E-M281), E-V38, J2 and traces of B and E2.

Somali Y-DNA is pretty skewed by what look to be founder-effects that are common among patriarchal pastoral nomads like us. Pretty sure our ancient predecessors had plenty of lineages like A-M13, E-V6, E-V22, E-M293 and what not like other Cushites but one look at Habesha mtDNA (http://ethiohelix.blogspot.com/2013/01/east-african-mtdna-variation-has.html) vs. Somali mtDNA (http://anthromadness.blogspot.com/2015/08/somali-mtdna-frequencies.html) or Somali mtDNA vs. general Highlander mtDNA (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/e/2PACX-1vTCPNK7QLIv27N2IwoKvJkRDtSXZjtyEATV_8XG5G2Up1EB4n 1FLl-0owPaZT149gN_n-twOXAvmfIZ/pubchart?oid=1540536967&format=interactive) and you notice that while there are clear differences there are a whole lot of clearly shared lineages and it's not like E-V32 and T-M70 subclades aren't common in the Highlands. Our own Habesha member, Lank, belongs to a V32 subclade. But hey, man... not gonna deny that many of our subclades within many of these shared lineages are probably pretty well separated or that Somalis have very little J1 (and no J2) in comparison to Habeshas and far lower amounts of the South-Arabian admixture in the Horn which makes sense since we live on the eastern end of the Horn and aren't Ethiosemitized in the least.


We can even go into difference in looks, as it's quite clear that Somalis are much more similar phenotypically and culturally to the Rendille, Masais, Arsi Oromos, and maybe even the Toubou and Congolese Banyamulenge (Banyamulenge I've seen online) than your average Amhara, Tigray, or Gurage. Do not act ignorant of what was the ~4,000+ years of heavy admixture from a variety of populations into the Habesha, and the accompanying mass cultural and ethno-lingustic shifts and adaptations that are not found in Somalis at all, that have made Somalis and Ethiosemites/Habeshas very diverged phenotypically.

Utter nonsense. The Toubou comparison makes about as much sense as comparing us to Fulanis and I could hear you regarding some of the Rendille as it can make genetic sense depending on the samples you're looking at but groups like the Maasai? My friend, the Maasai are often half as much MENA as Somalis. As in a basal admixture difference as high as 25% when the difference between Somalis and Habeshas in this respect is normally like 10-15% or so:

https://i.imgur.com/54mEGS3.png

Somalis are far closer to Habeshas by every genetic metric out there than to them and every group you have mentioned with the exception of Rendilles and probably also Arsi Oromos. Not to mention that these groups south of the Horn tend to carry a lot of ancestry completely foreign to Horners who seem to all be basally made up of the same stuff, albeit at noticeably varying levels:


https://i.imgur.com/MzEaMtu.png

https://i.imgur.com/vMhfRTh.png

And this genetic difference frankly shows in their looks, hence why many of the Somalis in this thread reacted the way they did to your phenotypic assessment. Personally, all I'll say is that even though recent formal stats and G25 results show Somalis have Mota-related ancestry and even some South-Arabian ancestry like Habeshas (though far less overall), anyone can see an overall difference in looks between our two groups yet there is a fair amount of overall similarity and overlap which makes sense with the genetics and I'll leave it at that and not really go deep into the phenotype rabbit hole with you as its all subjective and will go nowhere.

As for culturally... what are you on about? Somalis are, culturally speaking, just an extension of the Cushitic speaking peoples of the Horn itself whether that be fellow Coastal-Cushites or groups further to the interior like Oromos and Sidamics with some obvious influences from Arabia and the greater Indian Ocean region. Full stop. We don't have any of the obvious Nilotic influences in groups like the Maasai and Rendile, for example. Even when you compare Somalis who live right next to them to these groups. Not gonna deny there are many obvious similarities and shared roots like the obvious linguistic closeness to the Rendile but you don't even need to be a scholar or read a book for this... Simply look at them (https://www.google.com/search?q=Maasai+people&rlz=1C1CHBD_enAE859AE859&sxsrf=ALeKk02BHnxbTP1MU9cGyC2k_OI3tqc2dw:159335987 3625&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjD5JCK8KTqAhVK6RoKHUKdBLgQ_AUoAXoECBMQA w) and look at those images I shared of Early-Modern Somalis earlier. Maasais don't even use the typical Cushitic nomad mat-tent (https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B2ARnUeK-Y8WaFIyWElQdGhKY1U/view?usp=sharing), for god's sake.


Relative to Africa-Middle East as a whole, how do Somalis and Habeshas seem similar from any major vantage point? even with the entirety of Africa considered, that stands as a very odd statement.

The split between easterly lowlanders and westerly highlandlyers in the Horn is one of the deepest in the region and tends to correlate with a lot of differences in terms of subsistence, customs, religion and even linguistics and this is pretty uncontroversial and well-known even in the region itself but there's no need to exaggerate and warp reality to put this point across as you did.

ThaYamamoto
07-01-2020, 01:22 AM
Originally Posted by VytautusofAukstaitija View Post
We can even go into difference in looks, as it's quite clear that Somalis are much more similar phenotypically and culturally to the Rendille, Masais, Arsi Oromos, and maybe even the Toubou and Congolese Banyamulenge (Banyamulenge I've seen online) than your average Amhara, Tigray, or Gurage. Do not act ignorant of what was the ~4,000+ years of heavy admixture from a variety of populations into the Habesha, and the accompanying mass cultural and ethno-lingustic shifts and adaptations that are not found in Somalis at all, that have made Somalis and Ethiosemites/Habeshas very diverged phenotypically.

Utter nonsense. The Toubou comparison makes about as much sense as comparing us to Fulanis and I could hear you regarding some of the Rendille as it can make genetic sense depending on the samples you're looking at but groups like the Maasai? My friend, the Maasai are often half as much MENA as Somalis. As in a basal admixture difference as high as 25% when the difference between Somalis and Habeshas in this respect is normally like 10-15% or so:

Yeah dude is tripping. Its funny to me, people with little to no interaction or experience with Maasai tend to reference them the most...the Maasai on Google Images aren't really all that indicative of Maasai, I knew more David Rudisha type Maasai than quasi-Cushitic ones...folks in Nakuru would have a good laugh. I don't like phenotypic stuff cuz it can get creepy with the quickness [and ultimately who cares?] but I can't believe dude is trynna make such heavy distinctions between Horners.

Alfa
07-01-2020, 09:09 AM
That's hyperbolic nonsense. One group is Turkic speaking and from Central Asia and the other is Indo-European speaking and from North-Central Europe. Their cultures and ancestral origins are somewhat connected through the long history of the steppes but how is that comparable to Somalis and Habeshas who are both Afro-Asiatic speaking groups who live in the same overall region? And to top that off the Ethiosemitic languages of Habeshas have Cushitic substrates (http://anthromadness.blogspot.com/2017/08/being-more-accurate-about-substrates-in.html) and, as you know, Somali is Cushitic. This is more comparable to the difference between MENA Fellaḥin (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fellah) and Bedouins or the difference between an Arabized settled farmer and a Berber nomad and vice versa in the Maghreb.



You almost make it sound like our ancestors adopted this distinct subsistence style just for the sake of being different. They were mainly nomadic pastoralists out of necessity. I don't know if you've ever seen regions like Bari, Sanaag and Mudug (https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1KzchhQh3yZWou_FKPB5pAdk0ayNIGvdS) but without modern technology and know-how they're not exactly super inviting for much of anything other than nomadic pastoralism but even in such regions you could find as much as 30% of the population subsisting by other means:


Of a total population of 82,653 for the Mijertein region, 59,554 are pastoralist, 5,297 agriculturalist-pastoralist, 920 sedentary
cultivators, 9,692 fishermen and sailors, and 3,097 merchants. - Peoples of the Horn of Africa: Somali, Afar and Saho (https://drive.google.com/file/d/16JZ_J97Krn6pWh0nvYMpActnt3EqTJOX/view?usp=sharing)

Mostly pastoral nomads out of necessity but always seizing the chance to settle on the coast and fish and trade (https://drive.google.com/file/d/1q4MwuS__pk6qdkVZ31ZDV5XCrs-U-xgw/view?usp=sharing) or practice agro-pastoralism and sedentary farming where possible. And, of course, the prevalence of agro-pastoralism and sedentary farming generally increased in areas with more arable land like the riverine south and parts of the northwest toward the Highlands where you see people who either speak Coastal-Northern Somali dialects or closely related Somali languages (Maay, Tunni, Jidu etc) (https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B2ARnUeK-Y8WTkVtV2lrTkN2Y0k/view?usp=sharing) who take up sedentary farming and, from what I've noticed, social dynamics not too dissimilar at times from those in the highlands where these people tend to start caring more about local family kinship ties, where they're from and so on rather than caring as much about the intricacies of clan lineages.

And it's good you mentioned the Tigre because they're essentially just another link in the long observed chain that is "Coastal-Cushites (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barbara_(region))", as in predominantly lowland dwelling Cushitic speaking peoples who mainly subsist on pastoralism out of obvious necessity but also take up coastal settling, agro-pastoralism and settled farming where it seems worth it to do so from Southeastern Egypt down to the Somali coast. Tigres are just an Ethiosemitized break in that chain. These peoples differ from their Highland Ethiopian neighbors in terms of subsistence out of obvious necessity and the social dynamics often found among them like tribalism, a more unruly streak and greater social mobility outside of exceptions like the pseudo caste system in the Horn is just something you typically tend to see when you're looking at nomadic pastoralists Vs. sedentary farmers:


The Somali and Afar, and the Afar and Saho have traditions of common origin in the north-west corner of the Horn of Africa. All three peoples exhibit what
is basically a common culture, the material culture being almost uniform, with differences among the Saho to be attributed to Ethiopian influence. Variations in
ecology are also partly responsible for slight differences. Nomadism is the basic economy with the camel as burden animal, though among the Saho and in some parts
of southern Somalia, camels are few and oxen replace them as beasts of burden. Cultivation is practised by some of the Saho, by very few Afar, but extensively in southern
Somalia. - Peoples of the Horn of Africa: Somali, Afar and Saho (https://drive.google.com/file/d/16JZ_J97Krn6pWh0nvYMpActnt3EqTJOX/view?usp=sharing)

If most of the Somali territories were as suitable for cultivation as the Ethiopian Highlands there wouldn't be much of a subsistence difference between Somalis and Habeshas and most likely not nearly as much of a difference in social dynamics where you're obviously right that there is often a very marked split in terms of both, so much so that even medieval and classical people noticed the overall cultural differences when they separated the coastal "Berber" people from the northern highlander "Abyssinian" people in their accounts.



In a later part of your post you show that you seem to know Somalis herd goats and sheep so I don't know why you keep exaggerating like this to help your arguments or if you're really not all that knowledgeable about Somali subsistence, livestock and demographics. Somalis herd and herded plenty of animals other than camels (https://drive.google.com/file/d/1CIkcgGpl-b4yfvHjhYopxMGbG_UDq15Y/view?usp=sharing). Namely horses, cattle, goats, sheep and donkeys. Camels are indeed the most revered (https://drive.google.com/file/d/1hks5uGxP_Z-CeK3qmmI5IPRZUBu3goHD/view?usp=sharing), horses perhaps being an exception to this rule among warriors, with the order of importance after camels more or less being equivalent to the order I named those animals in prior but camels definitely were not the only animal herded or relied on, not by a long-shot. Depending on the region they could even be usurped as pack animals by cattle and most clans even in the north tended to have more sheep and goats than camels since they were historically more crucial to many Somalis for meat:

Among meats, mutton is the favorite and dominates the use of all others; goat meat is the second most popular, with beef somewhere in the middle and camel meat being the least favorite. This order does not correlate to any perceived qualities of the meat but is mostly about availability. - Culture and Customs of Somalia, by Mohamed Diriye Abdullahi (https://books.google.com/books?id=2Nu918tYMB8C)


Sheep and goats are second to camels and cattle in the internal economy of the country, providing milk, ghee, and meat, of which, in the north at least, they are the main source.- Peoples of the Horn of Africa: Somali, Afar and Saho (https://drive.google.com/file/d/16JZ_J97Krn6pWh0nvYMpActnt3EqTJOX/view?usp=sharing)


https://i.imgur.com/0AEEftn.png

https://i.imgur.com/y2bWQ3v.png



"In addition to some goats and sheep" indeed. Not to mention the fact that, our ancestors, once you go back far enough, would have been principally cattle, goat and sheep pastoralists much like the Pastoral Neolithic folk. Camels and horses are later introductions from the Middle East. The word for camel, Geel, even seems to have an Old-South-Arabian root (https://www.academia.edu/5529034/2013_Strata_in_Semitic_loanwords_in_Northern_Somal i).



Maasais are a Cushite admixed population who likely got that from from their Cushitic speaking ancestors and the way that system appears among Arabs and Tuaregs isn't exactly like how it is in the Horn. I think you are being a little disingenuous here. Ethiosemitic speakers are largely derived from local Cushitic speakers. Seemingly upwards of 70% of their ancestry (https://i.imgur.com/CzFxjoC.png) is of either Central, North or Highland-East Cushitic speaking origins and they likely would have inherited that custom from these groups who show it just like Somalis. It is a common Horn custom, found even among Omotic speakers, to maritally and socially ostracize blacksmiths, leather-workers, hunters and whatnot hence the Somali groups the Midgaan (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Madhiban), Tumaal (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tomal) and Yibir (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yibir) who are not too dissimilar in how they were treated historically from many of the Beta-Israel (https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?9964-Why-do-Tigrinyas-think-that-they-are-semite-when-they-look-almost-identical-to-somali&p=346058#post346058). Let's not try to act like this is some coincidental similarity.

I also find it odd that you were once highlighting the dressing style of Somalis from about a century ago and didn't take the time to notice how similar it was to the style of dress often found all over the Highlands:


https://i.imgur.com/n5Wryrl.jpg
Somalia 1889, Merka Market

https://i.imgur.com/43iIhlZ.jpg
People at the Court of King Sahle Selassie in Shewa 1847

A wider collection of past Somalis and Habeshas with some Bejas on top (https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1N77TWy230ppJOFRqooo7zxqKz64r66r7?usp=sharing)

^ No Arabs, Maasais and Tuaregs or even Rendille dressing like that. And this overall similarity in material culture wasn't something that was lost to people visiting or studying the region either. Then there's shared cuisines like Canjeero/Injera/Laxoox (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Injera#Outside_Ethiopia_and_Eritrea) which was historically a common staple among various groups in the Horn or even random shared customs like this (https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?4106-Post-a-pic-of-yourself-)&p=322715#post322715). Let's not pretend there aren't numerous shared cultural traits here that are either anciently shared or developed while Horners were interacting with each other constantly over the last several hundreds to thousands of years.



Somali Y-DNA is pretty skewed by what look to be founder-effects that are common among patriarchal pastoral nomads like us. Pretty sure our ancient predecessors had plenty of lineages like A-M13, E-V6, E-V22, E-M293 and what not like other Cushites but one look at Habesha mtDNA (http://ethiohelix.blogspot.com/2013/01/east-african-mtdna-variation-has.html) vs. Somali mtDNA (http://anthromadness.blogspot.com/2015/08/somali-mtdna-frequencies.html) or Somali mtDNA vs. general Highlander mtDNA (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/e/2PACX-1vTCPNK7QLIv27N2IwoKvJkRDtSXZjtyEATV_8XG5G2Up1EB4n 1FLl-0owPaZT149gN_n-twOXAvmfIZ/pubchart?oid=1540536967&format=interactive) and you notice that while there are clear differences there are a whole lot of clearly shared lineages and it's not like E-V32 and T-M70 subclades aren't common in the Highlands. Our own Habesha member, Lank, belongs to a V32 subclade. But hey, man... not gonna deny that many of our subclades within many of these shared lineages are probably pretty well separated or that Somalis have very little J1 (and no J2) in comparison to Habeshas and far lower amounts of the South-Arabian admixture in the Horn which makes sense since we live on the eastern end of the Horn and aren't Ethiosemitized in the least.



Utter nonsense. The Toubou comparison makes about as much sense as comparing us to Fulanis and I could hear you regarding some of the Rendille as it can make genetic sense depending on the samples you're looking at but groups like the Maasai? My friend, the Maasai are often half as much MENA as Somalis. As in a basal admixture difference as high as 25% when the difference between Somalis and Habeshas in this respect is normally like 10-15% or so:

https://i.imgur.com/54mEGS3.png

Somalis are far closer to Habeshas by every genetic metric out there than to them and every group you have mentioned with the exception of Rendilles and probably also Arsi Oromos. Not to mention that these groups south of the Horn tend to carry a lot of ancestry completely foreign to Horners who seem to all be basally made up of the same stuff, albeit at noticeably varying levels:


https://i.imgur.com/MzEaMtu.png

https://i.imgur.com/vMhfRTh.png

And this genetic difference frankly shows in their looks, hence why many of the Somalis in this thread reacted the way they did to your phenotypic assessment. Personally, all I'll say is that even though recent formal stats and G25 results show Somalis have Mota-related ancestry and even some South-Arabian ancestry like Habeshas (though far less overall), anyone can see an overall difference in looks between our two groups yet there is a fair amount of overall similarity and overlap which makes sense with the genetics and I'll leave it at that and not really go deep into the phenotype rabbit hole with you as its all subjective and will go nowhere.

As for culturally... what are you on about? Somalis are, culturally speaking, just an extension of the Cushitic speaking peoples of the Horn itself whether that be fellow Coastal-Cushites or groups further to the interior like Oromos and Sidamics with some obvious influences from Arabia and the greater Indian Ocean region. Full stop. We don't have any of the obvious Nilotic influences in groups like the Maasai and Rendile, for example. Even when you compare Somalis who live right next to them to these groups. Not gonna deny there are many obvious similarities and shared roots like the obvious linguistic closeness to the Rendile but you don't even need to be a scholar or read a book for this... Simply look at them (https://www.google.com/search?q=Maasai+people&rlz=1C1CHBD_enAE859AE859&sxsrf=ALeKk02BHnxbTP1MU9cGyC2k_OI3tqc2dw:159335987 3625&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjD5JCK8KTqAhVK6RoKHUKdBLgQ_AUoAXoECBMQA w) and look at those images I shared of Early-Modern Somalis earlier. Maasais don't even use the typical Cushitic nomad mat-tent (https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B2ARnUeK-Y8WaFIyWElQdGhKY1U/view?usp=sharing), for god's sake.



The split between easterly lowlanders and westerly highlandlyers in the Horn is one of the deepest in the region and tends to correlate with a lot of differences in terms of subsistence, customs, religion and even linguistics and this is pretty uncontroversial and well-known even in the region itself but there's no need to exaggerate and warp reality to put this point across as you did.

it is good you mentioned the Somali haplogroups. There are 2 Somali (1 said is a Darood clan), and are both from North Somalia, they are E-M293. They seemed suprised and don't understand how E-M293 got in Somalia. Their autosomal is 96+% Somali on 23andme.

drobbah
07-01-2020, 09:17 AM
Are they both from Kenya or Southern Ethiopia? It's possible these Northern clans when they arrived in Kenya incorporated some local Cushitic ethnic groups.For example,one of my top matches in 23&me is a Dir from Djibouti (next to Somaliland) who's E-V6 but autosomal is completely Somali.This is quite normal for neighbouring nomadic ethnic groups to incorporate each other.There are tons of Somali clans for example that have been assimilated into the Oromo ethnicity and would probably get Somali Y-DNA if they tested themselves

Lank
07-01-2020, 10:59 AM
it is good you mentioned the Somali haplogroups. There are 2 Somali (1 said is a Darood clan), and are both from North Somalia, they are E-M293. They seemed suprised and don't understand how E-M293 got in Somalia. Their autosomal is 96+% Somali on 23andme.
Interesting! There's also at least 1 Eritrean at 23andMe with M293. I wonder if these minor M293 lineages are a remnant of early Cushites spreading from the Horn. Alternatively, more ancient admixture. Recent admixture seems unlikely considering the lack of autosomal Bantu admixture or Y-DNA in the northern parts of the Horn, which are widespread in modern SE Africans.

mpatsibihugu89
07-01-2020, 11:15 AM
Deleted

Alfa
07-01-2020, 11:17 AM
Are they both from Kenya or Southern Ethiopia? It's possible these Northern clans when they arrived in Kenya incorporated some local Cushitic ethnic groups.For example,one of my top matches in 23&me is a Dir from Djibouti (next to Somaliland) who's E-V6 but autosomal is completely Somali.This is quite normal for neighbouring nomadic ethnic groups to incorporate each other.There are tons of Somali clans for example that have been assimilated into the Oromo ethnicity and would probably get Somali Y-DNA if they tested themselves

No, the 2 Somali (1 is Darood clan)with E-M293 I mentioned above, are both from North Somalia. Their autosomal is~ 96% Somalia, rest being Ethio_Eritrea.


But there is 3rd Somali from Degodia clan from Kenya who also carry E-M293. His autosomal is Somali like 97+Somali, the rest is 2.3% Ethiopia/Eritrea on 23andme. Of course, 23andme autosomal breakdown is not clear enough. It would be interesting to know how they do on Gedmatch or on G25. The Kenyan guy, someone talked about him earlier on this thread
https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?17868-E-M293-clade/page6&highlight=E-m293

mpatsibihugu89
07-01-2020, 11:20 AM
Interesting! There's also at least 1 Eritrean at 23andMe with M293. I wonder if these minor M293 lineages are a remnant of early Cushites spreading from the Horn. Alternatively, more ancient admixture. Recent admixture seems unlikely considering the lack of autosomal Bantu admixture or Y-DNA in the northern parts of the Horn, which are widespread in modern SE Africans.https://www.reddit.com/r/23andme/comments/hg1jzp/somali_dna_result/?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share

drobbah
07-01-2020, 11:32 AM
No, the 2 Somali (1 is Darood clan)with E-M293 I mentioned above, are both from North Somalia. Their autosomal is~ 96% Somalia, rest being Ethio_Eritrea.


But there is 3rd Somali from Degodia clan from Kenya who also carry E-M293. His autosomal is Somali like 97+Somali, the rest is 2.3% Ethiopia/Eritrea on 23andme. Of course, 23andme autosomal breakdown is not clear enough. It would be interesting to know how they do on Gedmatch or on G25. The Kenyan guy, someone talked about him earlier on this thread
https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?17868-E-M293-clade/page6&highlight=E-m293
What's the clan of the other Northerner with E-M293?

NetNomad
07-01-2020, 06:35 PM
What's the clan of the other Northerner with E-M293?

The clans of Somali E-M293 carriers so far are:

A Degodia man from a border town between Kenya and Somalia.

A Warsangeli claiming man. However, his mother is Hawadle (a group related to the Degodia), I suspect a non-paternity event going on here since no other Warsangeli has this lineage.

Alfa
07-01-2020, 06:48 PM
The clans of Somali E-M293 carriers so far are:

A Degodia man from a border town between Kenya and Somalia.

A Warsangeli claiming man. However, his mother is Hawadle (a group related to the Degodia), I suspect a non-paternity event going on here since no other Warsangeli has this lineage.

Actually, the guy we are talking about (from Darod clan) stated that he is relieved that there is another
Harti Warsengeli with same haplogroup E-M293. 2 Somali with E-M293

https://www.reddit.com/r/Somalia/comments/hdqapr/are_tribes_really_true_or_are_they_a_myth/

NetNomad
07-01-2020, 06:58 PM
Actually, the guy we are talking about (from Darod clan) stated that he is relieved that there is another
Harti Warsengeli with same haplogroup E-M293. 2 Somali with E-M293

https://www.reddit.com/r/Somalia/comments/hdqapr/are_tribes_really_true_or_are_they_a_myth/

He is confusing it for E-M5021 which he now has on 23andMe and saw some other Somalis have. This is some standard erroneous classification 23andMe sometimes gives. There are no Warsangelis with E-M293 besides him. I'm from that region and I am connected to almost all of them on 23andMe. However, I am not related to this guy, which seems shady.

The most likely explanation for his E-M293 is that is most likely a Hawadle paternally who share ties with the Degodia.

drobbah
07-01-2020, 07:02 PM
Actually, the guy we are talking about (from Darod clan) stated that he is relieved that there is another
Harti Warsengeli with same haplogroup E-M293. 2 Somali with E-M293

https://www.reddit.com/r/Somalia/comments/hdqapr/are_tribes_really_true_or_are_they_a_myth/

So both of these Somaliland individuals are Warsengali.The Warsengali for some reason are the most diverse Somali subclan I have ever seen lol.

NetNomad
07-01-2020, 07:08 PM
So both of these Somaliland individuals are Warsengali.The Warsengali for some reason are the most diverse Somali subclan I have ever seen lol.

E-Y163928 is the most likely legitimate lineage of the Warsangeli clan. A member of the Warsangeli Royal sub-clan belongs to this clade.

Some are also J-Y178103.

The above two are the only two serious candidates for this clan.

T1a, R1a, R1b, and E-M293 ''Warsangelis'' are simply not Warsangeli. The T1 carriers come from Isaaqs, the R1 ones from South Asian traders, and this E-M293 case can be explained away by non-paternity.

drobbah
07-01-2020, 07:47 PM
E-Y163928 is the most likely legitimate lineage of the Warsangeli clan. A member of the Warsangeli Royal sub-clan belongs to this clade.

Some are also J-Y178103.

The above two are the only two serious candidates for this clan.

T1a, R1a, R1b, and E-M293 ''Warsangelis'' are simply not Warsangeli. The T1 carriers come from Isaaqs, the R1 ones from South Asian traders, and this E-M293 case can be explained away by non-paternity.
Isn't the J1 from recent Mehri individuals that arrived in Sanaag and Puntland? Why would J1 be a serious Warsengali lineage when it's an obviously foreign lineage?

NetNomad
07-01-2020, 07:58 PM
Isn't the J1 from recent Mehri individuals that arrived in Sanaag and Puntland? Why would J1 be a serious Warsengali lineage when it's an obviously foreign lineage?


I take that one a bit more seriously as it also showed up in a Dhulbahante, an Ogadeni, and even a Majeerteen. Also, there's the Al-Jabarti mythology you have to take into account. More research is needed.

J Man
07-01-2020, 08:46 PM
E-Y163928 is the most likely legitimate lineage of the Warsangeli clan. A member of the Warsangeli Royal sub-clan belongs to this clade.

Some are also J-Y178103.

The above two are the only two serious candidates for this clan.

T1a, R1a, R1b, and E-M293 ''Warsangelis'' are simply not Warsangeli. The T1 carriers come from Isaaqs, the R1 ones from South Asian traders, and this E-M293 case can be explained away by non-paternity.

Is J2 present at all among Somalis?

drobbah
07-01-2020, 08:54 PM
Is J2 present at all among Somalis?
Not really and considering our autosomal genetic makeup, it makes sense why we don't

J Man
07-01-2020, 09:16 PM
Not really and considering our autosomal genetic makeup, it makes sense why we don't

Alrighty then.

Alfa
07-01-2020, 09:47 PM
He is confusing it for E-M5021 which he now has on 23andMe and saw some other Somalis have. This is some standard erroneous classification 23andMe sometimes gives. There are no Warsangelis with E-M293 besides him. I'm from that region and I am connected to almost all of them on 23andMe. However, I am not related to this guy, which seems shady.

The most likely explanation for his E-M293 is that is most likely a Hawadle paternally who share ties with the Degodia.

I think only him can answer that question about the other Warsangeli with E-M293. He know majority of Warsengeli are E-V32, with some T and J. The guy seems to know about dna stuffs. You can engage him (on reddit link guys posted above)to ask the other Warsangeli to try Morley(if he hasn't already done it).

NetNomad
07-01-2020, 11:14 PM
I think only him can answer that question about the other Warsangeli with E-M293. He know majority of Warsengeli are E-V32, with some T and J. The guy seems to know about dna stuffs. You can engage him (on reddit link guys posted above)to ask the other Warsangeli to try Morley(if he hasn't already done it).

Somalis are really patriarchal. Especially North and Central Somalis. That's why the above is quite shocking to me. :P

Alfa
07-01-2020, 11:57 PM
Somalis are really patriarchal. Especially North and Central Somalis. That's why the above is quite shocking to me. :P

I understand. Hopefully, ancient dna in the horn will reveal new suprises.

Advokaten19
07-13-2020, 11:44 AM
Do you think some somali bantu have ethnic somali admixture? And does some rahanweyn subclans have niger-congo admixture,