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View Full Version : Why is E-V13 the prevalent hg in Greece



Crow
08-09-2019, 10:13 PM
Pelasgians were J2 and are still the vast majority in Crete and have big numbers in the rest of the country. R1 is indoeuropean and is present in high numbers, but E-V13's presence is just impressive.

Saying E is present in high numbers because it was assimilated by IE doesn't make much sense in my head. There has to be a better explanation.

The Danaus myth just seems to be too accurate to be bs, comparing the hg of the zones.

What's your thought?

Kanenas
08-10-2019, 02:39 AM
Proto-Greeks had J2, subclades of both J2a and J2b, some subclades of G2a and maybe I2. (Esp. Aeolic Greeks. Even if some/most of the I2 today is Slavic. See the I2 subclades that exist in the Sabellic speaking area, also in the areas with the highest prevalence of Megalithic sites in Ireland, especially SW).

Those who connected proto-Greek with R1b-Z2103, typically some short of R1b supremacists, made no sense.

Concerning E1b1b subclades, the first speculation I had made was that it can be Cardial related. See early Cardial sites in Epirus and Corfu. R1a we may find I think, although I didn't believe it originally, because it has high diversity in Crete (though recent movements can be responsible) but if it existed early it arived with CHG related people.

Both the myths of Danaus and Cadmus seem to indicate movements of people with more southern ancestry, but is not completely clear what the terms Egyptian and Phoenician meant originally, though the sources indicate that the first was about movements from Lower Egypt and Levant and the second about people also from Levant who were, though, originally from Mesopotamia. (Though, there is a source -Diodorus- who implies a movement Egypt>Greece (Argos) for Danaus but Egypt>Mesopotamia>Greece for Cadmus based supposedly on Egyptian claims, and gives to both Cadmus and Danaus a common origin with the people lead by Moses to Judaea)

Greeks were saying that they learned maths from Egyptians and astronomy from Phoenicians.

Tz85
08-10-2019, 04:12 AM
The Hebrews were from E-M78 lol

dosas
08-10-2019, 05:33 AM
If R is not connected with the first Hellenic speakers, how come the language is part of the IE language family, or is it not?

Johnny ola
08-10-2019, 05:38 AM
Don’t confuse genetics with historic facts and other documents.

J2a is mycenaean ydna not pelasgian.The first inhabitants in Greece were people with I2 probably roots like all the mesolithic groups in balkans etc.Now for the EV13 i am sure without to proving anything that this haplo/clade arrived in Greece much much later than neolithic...probably at bronze age-iron age times.Some clades of EV13 in Greek mainland is of arvanite/albanian origins.Dont forget that Albos have high % of this Haplo.If i am not mistaken EV13 has be found in Cucuteni Tripillian culture.

As for r1a is mostly of slavic roots with some exceptions.

Kanenas
08-10-2019, 06:00 AM
If R is not connected with the first Hellenic speakers, how come the language is part of the IE language family, or is it not?

Your subclade may have something to do with the Macedonian dynasty, if they really had Armenian origin, or late movements of people from around Armenia.

In general, considering the evidence it makes more sense to assume that Steppe EMBA people were speaking a language more similar to Dagestanian and what is reconstructed as Dene-Caucasian.

dosas
08-10-2019, 06:08 AM
Your subclade may have something to do with the Macedonian dynasty, if they really had Armenian origin, or late movements of people from around Armenia.

In general, considering the evidence it makes more sense to assume that Steppe EMBA people were speaking a language more similar to Dagestanian and what is reconstructed as Dene-Caucasian.

Why only Armenian, Z2103 is found all around Eastern Europe, the Balkans and Anatolia (including Armenia and the Caucasus). It's just that a lot of Armenians test that deep compared to other countries so we have more deep subclades from them.

On the FTDNA tree, there's quite a few Bulgarian, Turkish and Greek Z2103s but none of them Big-Ys unfortunately.

rafc
08-11-2019, 07:34 AM
Interesting question. Looking at the current (very scarce) aDNA it would seem Greece was mostly J2a until at least LBA. I'm pretty sure by then already some V13 was present, maybe taggin along when IE-speakers came to Greece, whatever Y-Dna group they might have had. Evidently at the end of LBA there were big movements of people that might again have brought some V13 to Greece. In any case a lot of important subcladed of V13 (like CTS9320, L241 and FGC11450) have TMRCA's that cannot have been earlier than say 1500BC, so these guys must have been late arrivals to their current location. This suggests a lot of V13 arrived no earlier than the Iron age. One possibily is immigration of Thracians/Illyrians working as soldiers or craftsmen in Greece (evidently there was also a large influx of slaves from this region, but slaves tend to have a very small genetic footprint).

In the early middle ages Greece became much more of a border area, constantly threatened by invasions from the north. The Byzantines leaned heavily on troops from the Balkans for their military. It's quite possible that in these period people from the north were stationed in Greece and became part of the population, or even were deliberately used to repopulate areas.

Apart from that recent aDNA from Spain has shown that 'Visigothic' peoples had quite some V13, evidently picked up while they were staying in the Balkans. So the same can be assumed for the Slavic tribes that migrated to parts of Greece, although it's reasonable to assume that the netto effect would be a decline in V13 percentages in favor of I2 and R1a.