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Sikeliot
08-16-2019, 12:36 AM
I have asked this on other sites and no one was able to tell.

Some people will give answers like South Slavs, but this isn't what I mean. The actual East European portion of Greek DNA, does it best match Poles? Russians? Ukrainians? Belarusians? Czechs? Which modern population proxies it?

And using modeling, how high is it?

Johnny ola
08-16-2019, 01:47 AM
Put out Czechs and Russians...!!!Definetly no.

If i have to pick probably Poles.

dosas
08-16-2019, 04:42 AM
Historically, Ukraine was the focus of ancient Greek expansionism and had the strongest bonds with Rome?

Michał
08-19-2019, 04:28 PM
Some people will give answers like South Slavs, but this isn't what I mean. The actual East European portion of Greek DNA, does it best match Poles? Russians? Ukrainians? Belarusians? Czechs? Which modern population proxies it?

It seems that the modern Slavs from Eastern (or Central-Eastern) Poland, Southern Belarus, Northern Ukraine and from the most Western part of Russia (including for example the Bryansk region) all cluster together and it is very difficult to distinguish them from each other based on any basic autosomal analysis alone. For example, all my ancestral lineages are going back to the late 18th century SW Mazovia in Poland (which is west of the Vistula river, thus practically Central Poland), yet in most analyses I cannot be separated from the Belarusians, Northern Ukrainians nor Western Russians. I suspect this should be possible to achieve with some more refined autosomal tools, yet I haven't come across such tools so far.

All this suggests that the region extending from Central-Eastern Poland to Western Russia (including Southern Belarus and Northern Ukraine) had experienced very little non-Slavic admixture since the Early Middle Age, so they all resemble the original Proto-Slavic population in about the same way.

However, some apparent differences are seen on the Y-DNA level. For example, there are many "Slavic" Y-DNA subclades that are relatively common among the Western Slavs (including those from Eastern Poland) and not uncommon among the Eastern Slavs (including Russians), yet they are absent among the Southern Slavs (or south of the Carpathian range, see for example R1a-S18681 or R1a-L365), which suggests they were initially associated with the northernmost groupings within the larger Proto-Slavic population and thus they expanded mostly west/north-west and east/north-east. On the other hand, there are also some "Slavic" subclades like I2a-Y3120 (one of the largest Slavic subclades) and R1a-YP4278 that are much more common among both the Southern and Eastern Slavs than among the Western Slavs, so all this suggests that the Slavs migrated south (towards the Balkans) from today's Ukraine.

The modern distribution of different Slavic Y-DNA subclades indicates that there were two major routes for the Early Slavs migrating from Western Ukraine towards the Balkans. The South-Eastern route through Moldavia and Lower Danube was likely used by tribes rich in I2a-Y3210 and some specific subclades of R1a-L1029, while the South-Western route through SE Poland, Slovakia and Hungary was used by tribes with elevated frequencies of I2a-Y3120, R1a-Y2902, R1a-Y2613 and R1a-YP343, among others.

I have one important comment regarding the autosomal analysis. Assuming that both the Goths and the Slavs have influenced the Balkan populations in the Early Middle Age period (with the Slavic impact being obviously much stronger), this may potentially lead to some autosomal analyses merging those two independent migrations into one wave of migrants resembling some modern Western Slavs (like the slightly west-shifted modern Poles), so one needs to be extremely careful when interpreting such results.



And using modeling, how high is it?
You should ask Generalissimo about it.
Based on the Y-DNA distribution, it seems that the Slavic impact was from about 35-40% in Bulgaria and Macedonia to about 55-65% in some Western parts of the Balkans, with about 15-20% in Greece and Albania. However, one needs to keep in mind that the autosomal impact could have been a bit lower than that.

George
08-19-2019, 04:55 PM
It seems that the modern Slavs from Eastern (or Central-Eastern) Poland, Southern Belarus, Northern Ukraine and from the most Western part of Russia (including for example the Bryansk region) all cluster together and it is very difficult to distinguish them from each other based on any basic autosomal analysis alone. For example, all my ancestral lineages are going back to the late 18th century SW Mazovia in Poland (which is west of the Vistula river, thus practically Central Poland), yet in most analyses I cannot be separated from the Belarusians, Northern Ukrainians nor Western Russians. I suspect this should be possible to achieve with some more refined autosomal tools, yet I haven't come across such tools so far.

All this suggests that the region extending from Central-Eastern Poland to Western Russia (including Southern Belarus and Northern Ukraine) had experienced very little non-Slavic admixture since the Early Middle Age, so they all resemble the original Proto-Slavic population in about the same way.

However, some apparent differences are seen on the Y-DNA level. For example, there are many "Slavic" Y-DNA subclades that are relatively common among the Western Slavs (including those from Eastern Poland) and not uncommon among the Eastern Slavs (including Russians), yet they are absent among the Southern Slavs (or south of the Carpathian range, see for example R1a-S18681 or R1a-L365), which suggests they were initially associated with the northernmost groupings within the larger Proto-Slavic population and thus they expanded mostly west/north-west and east/north-east. On the other hand, there are also some "Slavic" subclades like I2a-Y3120 (one of the largest Slavic subclades) and R1a-YP4278 that are much more common among both the Southern and Eastern Slavs than among the Western Slavs, so all this suggests that the Slavs migrated south (towards the Balkans) from today's Ukraine.

The modern distribution of different Slavic Y-DNA subclades indicates that there were two major routes for the Early Slavs migrating from Western Ukraine towards the Balkans. The South-Eastern route through Moldavia and Lower Danube was likely used by tribes rich in I2a-Y3210 and some specific subclades of R1a-L1029, while the West-Eastern route through SE Poland, Slovakia and Hungary was used by tribes with elevated frequencies of I2a-Y3120, R1a-Y2902, R1a-Y2613 and R1a-YP343, among others.

I have one important comment regarding the autosomal analysis. Assuming that both the Goths and the Slavs have influenced the Balkan populations in the Early Middle Age period (with the Slavic impact being obviously much stronger), this may potentially lead to some autosomal analyses merging those two independent migrations into one wave of migrants resembling some modern Western Slavs (like the slightly west-shifted modern Poles), so one needs to be extremely careful with interpreting such results.


You should ask Generalissimo about it.
Based on the Y-DNA distribution, it seems that the Slavic impact was from about 35-40% in Bulgaria and Macedonia to about 55-65% in some Western parts of the Balkans, with about 15-20% in Greece and Albania. However, one needs to keep in mind that the autosomal impact could have been a bit lower than that.

Super professional and super interesting post!

mihaitzateo
08-20-2019, 08:28 PM
It is from the Gothic tribes, mosty.
The bones of the early Gothic speakers and Wendish people/protoPoles, are not different.
Just the language and the ethnicity was different, the genetics was very close between East Germanic tribes and protoPoles.
Another thing, the phenotype/race was not same between the East Germanic tribes and Poles.
Poles were and are Baltid, seems East Germanics were mostly Dinarid, as race.

spruithean
08-20-2019, 08:39 PM
It is from the Gothic tribes, mosty.
The bones of the early Gothic speakers and Wendish people/protoPoles, are not different.
Just the language and the ethnicity was different, the genetics was very close between East Germanic tribes and protoPoles.
Another thing, the phenotype/race was not same between the East Germanic tribes and Poles.
Poles were and are Baltid, seems East Germanics were mostly Dinarid, as race.

What are you talking about? What are your sources?

Jokli
09-06-2019, 10:00 PM
Historically, Ukraine was the focus of ancient Greek expansionism and had the strongest bonds with Rome?

Could some of that Slavic ancestry be attributed not to Slavic migrations to Greek lands itself but to late Hellenic colonists around the Black Sea and them coming back having mixed with Early Slavs there?