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Crow
08-18-2019, 10:15 AM
I think it's very likely E-V13 became indoeuropized in that area. But when, how, and why did this haplogroup (and/or it's ancestor) reach that area? And which cultures were associated to E-V13 in this area before the indoeuropization?

Aspar
08-18-2019, 11:14 AM
One of the oldest E-V13 samples in Europe so far is one 'Cardium Pottery Culture' sample from Spain dated 7000 ybp!

However, all descendants of E-V13 today share TMRCA no older than 4800 ybp according to the YFULL tree: https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-V13/

Moreover, the highest diversity and numbers per percentage in group are found in the Balkans today!

This points to the conclusion that the surviving E-V13, who all modern descendants stem from, lived somewhere around the Balkans 4800 ybp and than, a star like expansion had began, an expansion that can be best attributed to Indo-Europeans!

There is a nice thread about ancient E samples here on Anthrogenica, and constantly updated: https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?6496-Map-of-ancient-E-samples

If we look in the ancient samples found around the Balkans, there are few samples that were confirmed to belong to haplogroup E!
There is a 'Cucuteni-Trypillian Culture' sample(6000-5600 ybp) confirmed E-M78, found close to the Ukrainian Carpathians.
There is a 'Sopot Culture' sample(7000-6800 ybp) confirmed E-M78, found in Hungary.
There is a 'Lengyel Culture' sample(6780-6700 ybp) confirmed E-L618, found in Hungary.
There is a 'Cardium Pottery Culture' sample(7600-7470 ybp) confirmed E-L618, found in Croatia.

However, none of these is E-V13...

The only E-V13 samples found in the Balkans up to date are/is a Scythian sample found in Moldova, confirmed E-CTS1273 (4885-4632 ybp) but marked as not very reliable sample. Furthermore, there are some issues, either with the naming of this sample or with the date. The sample is marked as a Scythian, however is dated to 4885-4632 ybp, and we know that the Scythians as a group didn't exist by that time???
This sample is from the study Ancient genomes suggest the eastern Pontic-Caspian steppe as the source of western Iron Age nomads (https://advances.sciencemag.org/content/4/10/eaat4457).

The next sample is P192-1 Thracian, Svilengrad Bulgaria 2800-2500 ybp (800-500 BCE). This sample was confirmed as E-Z1919 (2800-2500 ybp) however according to YFULL, this sample is E-V13: http://www.open-genomes.org/analysis/E-M35/E-M35_ancient_DNA_on_the_YFull_6.01_tree.html!

All this points to Eastern Balkan origin of the MRCA of all modern descendants of E-V13! Probably a native to 'Cucuteni-Trypillian Culture' which was then assimilated by the advancing Indo-European group! For example, in my subclade there is a British group with who I share 4200 ybp TMRCA according to YFULL tree, but inside this British group, there are two groups who share TMRCA of 3800 ybp according to YFULL tree, with no other participants but British descendants only! All this indicates to a very old presence of this E-V13 "British group" in the British isles and probably arrivals with the very first Indo-Europeans in the British isles!

Today, the biggest diversity of E-V13 and it's subclades downwards is found in Bulgarians which indicates a more native, Eastern Balkan structure in their genetics, probably inherited from the old people living there, such as Thracians, Dacians, Getae all whom were known as Scythians in various sources. The Thracians were not only known as horse riders but also as 'Scudra' by the Persians who called their land as such and which probably means Scythian!

Kelmendasi
08-18-2019, 01:21 PM
The only E-V13 samples found in the Balkans up to date are/is a Scythian sample found in Moldova, confirmed E-CTS1273 (4885-4632 ybp) but marked as not very reliable sample. Furthermore, there are some issues, either with the naming of this sample or with the date. The sample is marked as a Scythian, however is dated to 4885-4632 ybp, and we know that the Scythians as a group didn't exist by that time???
This sample is from the study Ancient genomes suggest the eastern Pontic-Caspian steppe as the source of western Iron Age nomads (https://advances.sciencemag.org/content/4/10/eaat4457).

The next sample is P192-1 Thracian, Svilengrad Bulgaria 2800-2500 ybp (800-500 BCE). This sample was confirmed as E-Z1919 (2800-2500 ybp) however according to YFULL, this sample is E-V13: http://www.open-genomes.org/analysis/E-M35/E-M35_ancient_DNA_on_the_YFull_6.01_tree.html!

All this points to Eastern Balkan origin of the MRCA of all modern descendants of E-V13! Probably a native to 'Cucuteni-Trypillian Culture' which was then assimilated by the advancing Indo-European group! For example, in my subclade there is a British group with who I share 4200 ybp TMRCA according to YFULL tree, but inside this British group, there are two groups who share TMRCA of 3800 ybp according to YFULL tree, with no other participants but British descendants only! All this indicates to a very old presence of this E-V13 "British group" in the British isles and probably arrivals with the very first Indo-Europeans in the British isles!

Today, the biggest diversity of E-V13 and it's subclades downwards is found in Bulgarians which indicates a more native, Eastern Balkan structure in their genetics, probably inherited from the old people living there, such as Thracians, Dacians, Getae all whom were known as Scythians in various sources. The Thracians were not only known as horse riders but also as 'Scudra' by the Persians who called their land as such and which probably means Scythian!
I personally wouldn’t consider the “Scythian” sample to be Balkan since it’s from Moldova, a nation that is rarely included as a part of the Balkans. I do think that the Thracian sample from Svilengrad is E-V13, which would make it the oldest Balkan E-V13 sample so far.

I don’t think it’s likely that the MRCA of all living E-V13 descendants was from the eastern Balkans, there are clades under V13 which show more of a link to the western parts of the Balkans and aren’t all that common in the east. Such as clade is PH1246. The western Balkans also seems to have a higher percentage of basal clades. Though I do think that the MRCA of CTS1273 was from the eastern Balkans or Carpathians, the group was then picked up by IE speakers and expanded with them across Europe.

Though the Daco-Thracian peoples did have close contact with the Scythians, I think it’s clear that they weren’t closely related. Dacians and Thracians clearly weren’t Iranic speakers like the Scythians and had distinct cultures and religions.

Farroukh
08-20-2019, 05:22 AM
How did E-V13 reach the carpathians?
It was continuous flow from bronze age times up to down of Ottoman empire, including ancient tribes, Greeks, Romans, Christian migrations from Moslem pressure and so on.
Carpathian Rusin people have the highest percentage of E-V13 to date. Likely, they are E-CTS1273 lines

Johane Derite
08-20-2019, 03:09 PM
I don’t think it’s likely that the MRCA of all living E-V13 descendants was from the eastern Balkans, there are clades under V13 which show more of a link to the western parts of the Balkans and aren’t all that common in the east. Such as clade is PH1246. The western Balkans also seems to have a higher percentage of basal clades.

Yes you are totally right about this. Unfortunately though this east origin has become kind of a simplified meme that has spread. We also know that the Romans displaced Illyrian tribes to mine in the east and other such forced movements did happen, so the possibility of basal EV13 clades being transported there is probable considering we see pockets across bulgaria and romania with J2b2-L283 with west origin.

Kelmendasi
08-23-2019, 08:16 PM
It was continuous flow from bronze age times up to down of Ottoman empire, including ancient tribes, Greeks, Romans, Christian migrations from Moslem pressure and so on.
Carpathian Rusin people have the highest percentage of E-V13 to date. Likely, they are E-CTS1273 lines
What percentage are E-V13? As far as I know Albanians have the highest E-V13 percentage, around 30%

Ruderico
08-23-2019, 08:38 PM
What percentage are E-V13? As far as I know Albanians have the highest E-V13 percentage, around 30%

From wiki


The 2014 Y-DNA studies of 200 Pannonian Rusyns in the region of Vojvodina, Serbia, found they mostly belong to haplogroup R1a (43%), I2 (20%), E-V13 (12.5%), and R1b (8.5%), while I1, G2a, J2b, N1 between 2.5-4.5%, and J1, T, and H only in traces of less than 1%.[25] They cluster closest to the Ukrainian and Slovakian population, "providing evidence for their genetic isolation from the Serbian majority population".[26] The 2015 Y-DNA study of 150 men from Zakarpattia and Chernivtsi Oblast (Bukovina), found they mostly belong to R1a1a1*(М198), I2a (Р37.2), R1a1a1 (М458) ranging around and less than 30%, with E1b1b1a1 (M78), R1b1b2 (M269), and I1 (М253) ranging between 4-14%. The sampled population is most similar to other Ukrainians, while the Bukovina population slightly "differs from the typical Ukrainian population" because has highest percentage of I2a (>30%) and lowest percentage of R1a (30%) in Ukraine. Bukovina's percentage of I2 is similar to near Moldovan and Romanian population, while the highest percentage is among South Slavs in Western Balkans. It was concluded that although bordered by diverse nations, the Carpathians seemingly were a barrier decreasing gene flow southward of N1c (М178), R1a (М198) and northward of E1b (М78), R1b (М269), J (М304) and G (М201) to the region.

Not even close to 30%

Farroukh
08-24-2019, 02:44 AM
What percentage are E-V13? As far as I know Albanians have the highest E-V13 percentage, around 30%
Carpathian Rusins include ~12% of E-V13, the highest percentage for Carpathian region.

Topic is about Carpathian area, but Albanians are not local Carpathian people. Maybe, they have the highest score over this world.

Johane Derite
02-28-2020, 03:32 PM
One of the oldest E-V13 samples in Europe so far is one 'Cardium Pottery Culture' sample from Spain dated 7000 ybp!

However, all descendants of E-V13 today share TMRCA no older than 4800 ybp according to the YFULL tree: https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-V13/

Moreover, the highest diversity and numbers per percentage in group are found in the Balkans today!

This points to the conclusion that the surviving E-V13, who all modern descendants stem from, lived somewhere around the Balkans 4800 ybp and than, a star like expansion had began, an expansion that can be best attributed to Indo-Europeans!

There is a nice thread about ancient E samples here on Anthrogenica, and constantly updated: https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?6496-Map-of-ancient-E-samples

If we look in the ancient samples found around the Balkans, there are few samples that were confirmed to belong to haplogroup E!
There is a 'Cucuteni-Trypillian Culture' sample(6000-5600 ybp) confirmed E-M78, found close to the Ukrainian Carpathians.
There is a 'Sopot Culture' sample(7000-6800 ybp) confirmed E-M78, found in Hungary.
There is a 'Lengyel Culture' sample(6780-6700 ybp) confirmed E-L618, found in Hungary.
There is a 'Cardium Pottery Culture' sample(7600-7470 ybp) confirmed E-L618, found in Croatia.

However, none of these is E-V13...

The only E-V13 samples found in the Balkans up to date are/is a Scythian sample found in Moldova, confirmed E-CTS1273 (4885-4632 ybp) but marked as not very reliable sample. Furthermore, there are some issues, either with the naming of this sample or with the date. The sample is marked as a Scythian, however is dated to 4885-4632 ybp, and we know that the Scythians as a group didn't exist by that time???
This sample is from the study Ancient genomes suggest the eastern Pontic-Caspian steppe as the source of western Iron Age nomads (https://advances.sciencemag.org/content/4/10/eaat4457).

The next sample is P192-1 Thracian, Svilengrad Bulgaria 2800-2500 ybp (800-500 BCE). This sample was confirmed as E-Z1919 (2800-2500 ybp) however according to YFULL, this sample is E-V13: http://www.open-genomes.org/analysis/E-M35/E-M35_ancient_DNA_on_the_YFull_6.01_tree.html!

All this points to Eastern Balkan origin of the MRCA of all modern descendants of E-V13! Probably a native to 'Cucuteni-Trypillian Culture' which was then assimilated by the advancing Indo-European group! For example, in my subclade there is a British group with who I share 4200 ybp TMRCA according to YFULL tree, but inside this British group, there are two groups who share TMRCA of 3800 ybp according to YFULL tree, with no other participants but British descendants only! All this indicates to a very old presence of this E-V13 "British group" in the British isles and probably arrivals with the very first Indo-Europeans in the British isles!

Today, the biggest diversity of E-V13 and it's subclades downwards is found in Bulgarians which indicates a more native, Eastern Balkan structure in their genetics, probably inherited from the old people living there, such as Thracians, Dacians, Getae all whom were known as Scythians in various sources. The Thracians were not only known as horse riders but also as 'Scudra' by the Persians who called their land as such and which probably means Scythian!

Is there any update on this "Scythian" EV13 that is 4000 years old? Was it dated wrongly, or named Scythian wrongly?

Kelmendasi
02-28-2020, 03:46 PM
Is there any update on this "Scythian" EV13 that is 4000 years old? Was it dated wrongly, or named Scythian wrongly?
The original calculations that placed SCY197 back to ~3,000 BCE were incorrect, the sample is actually dated back to the Iron Age (400-200 BCE) https://amtdb.org/records/SCY197. It has also been discovered that the sample was E-FGC44169* and not E-CTS1273* like previously thought https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-FGC44169/.

The site where the sample was from, Glinoe, was a Scythian burial site as far as I know. However, it seems to have originally been a Getae (Tyragetae?) location that fell under Scythian influence. The site is noted to have had direct Greek and Thracian influences https://www.e-anthropology.com/English/glinoe_summary/default.aspx. The other samples from the site were very close to SCY197 in terms of auDNA suggesting that they came from the same group. Their similarity to Balkan populations and samples suggests that they were indeed Getae or Daco-Thracians rather than actual Scythians.

Would be interesting if some of the V13+ samples from the upcoming paper on Roman and Medieval Moesia turn out to also be FGC44169+. If they do then it would suggest a link between FGC44169 downstreams and Daco-Thracian speakers.

Dorkymon
02-28-2020, 03:49 PM
These are the V13 that we have so far (source) (https://indo-european.eu/ancient-dna/):



Object-ID


scy197.SG


CL38


SzK/239


K1/13


K2/6


VK362


I7498


Yaroslav_Osmomysl


I7457




Source
Date


Krzewińska2018
2885-2632 BCE


Amorim2018
580-630 CE


Neparaczki2019
650/660–700/710


Neparaczki2019
895- mid Xth c.


Neparaczki2019
895- mid Xth c.


Margaryan2019
10th century CE


Olalde2019
1000–1100 CE


OnlineGroup(Descendants)



Olalde2019
1100–1300 CE




Simplified_Culture
Culture_Grouping


Scythian
Western Scythian


Germanic
Longobard Kingdom


Avar
Avar_Middle_Late


Magyar
Early Magyar Upper Tisza


Magyar
Early Magyar Upper Tisza


Viking
Viking Denmark


Iberia_Muslim
Muslim


Slav_Early
Early East Slav


Iberia_Muslim
Muslim




Country


Moldova


Italy


Hungary


Hungary


Hungary


Denmark


Spain


Ukraine


Spain

Hawk
02-28-2020, 05:46 PM
Is there any update on this "Scythian" EV13 that is 4000 years old? Was it dated wrongly, or named Scythian wrongly?

His assumptions are up in the air. Does he quote any paper that E-V13 origin is in Eastern Balkans? No. Does he quote any peer reviewed paper that Bulgarians have basal and most diverse E-V13 clades? No. Does he quote any paper that it originates from Cucuteni-Trypillian culture? No.