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View Full Version : Did Greek Orthodox Christians fleeing Arab rule spread Levantine DNA to SE Europe?



Sikeliot
08-18-2019, 02:12 PM
Let me be clear here. I am not asking how much of such admixture exists as we have used models to determine 15-25% is the likely estimate, but rather the route through which it spread i.e. point of dispersal and migration patterns. I have a theory personally that makes historical sense and is historically backed up, after putting some pieces together.

The story is far simpler for southern Italy because there are a lot of gaps in the Aegean islands' history but I think I may have come up with a solution.

Who agrees? Does anyone have a rebuttal?

SOUTHERN ITALY:
Under Byzantine rule, Sicily was homogeneously Greek Orthodox Christian in religion, Greek in language, and Greek in identity. Of these "Greeks" they were certainly not, however, all of the same genetic background. Even today the genetic diversity of different Greek groups testifies to the fact that a large number of populations of different origins became Hellenized and saw themselves as Greeks and would not have known, or cared, whether their ancestors had been Phoenician vs Siculi vs Sicanian. They were just Greeks.

Byzantine Sicily, on a genetic level, likely was mixed between Greeks of various origins and the Italic Siculi people on the eastern side of the island (southeast Sicily like Syracuse is still this way today without much, if any, Levantine input), and a mixture of Greeks and various peoples of West Asian origin (Elymians, Phoenicians, etc.) on the western side. The Sicanians were rapidly Hellenized over 1000 years prior and any descendants of theirs would have been predominantly Greek. There is no evidence of western Sicily having an indigenous Italic population, and no evidence of eastern Sicily, at this point, having any sort of Levantine ancestry.

Western Sicily was first conquered by invading Arabs, which saw a large exodus of Greek Christians (i.e. people of mixed Greek, Phoenician, Elymian, etc. genetic background) from western Sicily to northeastern Sicily, which was the last region of the island to fall to the Arabs and remained predominantly Christian all the way through the Arab conquest. What are today the provinces of Enna, Messina, Catania, and the eastern part of Palermo were flooded by western Sicilian Christians escaping the Arabs, which led to a large transfer of West Asian ancestry to a region where it had previously been absent. The eventual conquest of northeastern Sicily by the Arabs would have seen a further push into Calabria, especially the southern part, and over time as people moved throughout Italy you would have seen dispersal to the rest of the mainland.

A secondary source of Levantine input in southern Italy would be from Greek-speaking Levantines fleeing Arab conquest of the Levant, who would have been more likely to end up in the Aegean islands and southern Italy rather than in mainland Greece, which was already destabilized in its battles against the Slavs.

Today, people from southeastern Sicily such as Syracuse, parts of Ragusa, plot quite close to southern Peloponnesians, Cyclades islanders, and people from center-south Italy like Abruzzo and Lazio, likely reflecting their mixture of Greek and Italic (Siculi) ancestry. Having never had Phoenician or Carthaginian settlement, having not received many Christian refugees from western Sicily, and having only received settlement by Arabs and Berbers along the southern coast, to this very day they are more similar to people from mainland Italy and mainland Greece. Yet northeastern Sicily and Calabria do not, because in my estimation, many of their ancient ancestors had once lived further west in what is now Palermo or Trapani.


AEGEAN ISLANDS:
The Aegean Islands have a significant amount of historically unaccounted-for Levantine ancestry that clearly was not present in Minoans or Mycenaeans. Geographic proximity clearly does not explain it either, otherwise the Minoan and Mycenaean samples would show elevated Afroasiatic ancestry and they do not. This is what I think is the most likely explanation for today's Aegean islanders showing genetic affinity to Semitic-speaking Levantines.

The Levant was Hellenized with a significant Greek Orthodox, Greek-speaking population under Byzantine rule. Like everywhere else, these people would have seen themselves as culturally compatible with other Greek-speaking people, whether in southern Italy, the Greek mainland, or the Greek islands. They would have been Hellenized Canaanites, Aramaeans, and so on but would have regarded themselves as Greeks to some extent.

Similarly to in Sicily where the Arab conquest destabilized the Christian population, the Arab conquest of the Levant likely pushed a lot of Greek Christians westward, toward the Aegean islands and Cyprus. Cyprus, being geographically closest, likely saw the largest demographic impact, followed by the Dodecanese and Crete. Other island chains such as the Cyclades and North Aegean, too, would be impacted but not quite as strongly, and surely some people would have ended up in mainland southern Italy, which was, unlike Sicily, not under Arab rule and still Byzantine.

The Slavic invasion of mainland Greece, which affected everywhere from Thrace to the Peloponnese, would have made mainland Greece inhospitable to Levantine Christians fleeing Arab rule. Byzantine Greece was using all of its resources to fight off the Slavs, and in fact needed to import Greeks from southern Italy and Anatolia to do so and to numerically increase the Greek population against the Slavs. Therefore, if you wonder why these Levantine Christians happened to avoid mainland Greece, it was not by coincidence. It would be like immigrants choosing to come to the United States at a time when the whole nation is embroiled in war on its own soil... it would not happen.

Bleach
08-18-2019, 04:25 PM
As to Aegean islands , what about the Emirate of Crete' period (824–961) for an additional or even a more plausible input ?

Sikeliot
08-18-2019, 04:34 PM
As to Aegean islands , what about the Emirate of Crete' period (824–961) for an additional or even a more plausible input ?

The Muslims in Crete were mostly Muslims from Spain. This would not explain Levantine ancestry.

Do you think my explanation for Sicily and Calabria makes sense? It is historically documented but I do believe if not for Arab rule pushing Christians into northeast Sicily, the Levantine DNA would be largely restricted to western Sicily today.

Bleach
08-18-2019, 06:15 PM
The Muslims in Crete were mostly Muslims from Spain. This would not explain Levantine ancestry.

Do you think my explanation for Sicily and Calabria makes sense? It is historically documented but I do believe if not for Arab rule pushing Christians into northeast Sicily, the Levantine DNA would be largely restricted to western Sicily today.

What does make you think that Norheastern Sicily was not such West Asian before the Westerner refugees arrival ?

Historically documented , Calabria went through a heavily settlement from Armenians and Greek Anatolians as soldiers/civil servants over the byzantine rule. It's as well as plausible they hold the most of their seeming Levantine component from these ones rather than greek orthodox Syrians refugees from the Arab conquest (also let's not neglect all the Bronze age migrations from Anatolia)

To be honest, as I dont believe (for now) to a direct transfert from Levant to Italy about the Western jews ' ethnogenesis , I won't believe either to Levantins migrants fleeing Arab conquest of Syria to settle over there

As to Sicily , Some of us have argued that Punic settlers in the West, were not as numerous as we could have believed and they could have been rather berber like than Levantine like , then during the Emirate period things are also complex about the different ethnic inputs as we kwow that invaders could have been as well Berbers , Egyptians, Levantines,Mesopotamians,...and it makes more sense from a historical standpoint

For all these reasons
I think we tend to inflate the levantine component strictely speaking for Sicilians and Southern Italians
Because we can make up G25 models giving better results both including Egyptians , Berbers , Levantines,Mesopotamians, and so

The first models are made up with ancient samples and the latter with modern ones
Notice how Anatolian/Iranian/Armenian are higher for Calabarians in both models opposed to Sicilians

https://i.imgur.com/gyh2S42.png?1

https://i.imgur.com/K7B0Siy.png

Sikeliot
08-18-2019, 06:54 PM
What does make you think that Norheastern Sicily was not such West Asian before the Westerner refugees arrival ?

Historically documented , Calabria went through a heavily settlement from Armenians and Greek Anatolians as soldiers/civil servants over the byzantine rule. It's as well as plausible they hold the most of their seeming Levantine component from these ones rather than greek orthodox Syrians refugees from the Arab conquest (also let's not neglect all the Bronze age migrations from Anatolia)

To be honest, as I dont believe (for now) to a direct transfert from Levant to Italy about the Western jews ' ethnogenesis , I won't believe either to Levantins migrants fleeing Arab conquest of Syria to settle over there

As to Sicily , Some of us have argued that Punic settlers in the West, were not as numerous as we could have believed and they could have been rather berber like than Levantine like , then during the Emirate period things are also complex about the different ethnic inputs as we kwow that invaders could have been as well Berbers , Egyptians, Levantines,Mesopotamians,...and it makes more sense from a historical standpoint

For all these reasons
I think we tend to inflate the levantine component strictely speaking for Sicilians and Southern Italians
Because we can make up G25 models giving better results both including Egyptians , Berbers , Levantines,Mesopotamians, and so

The first models are made up with ancient samples and the latter with modern ones
Notice how Anatolian/Iranian/Armenian are higher for Calabarians in both models opposed to Sicilians

https://i.imgur.com/gyh2S42.png?1

https://i.imgur.com/K7B0Siy.png

I was aware of Armenian settlement in Calabria, I forgot about that but you are correct. When I say Punic I am thinking of the original settlement of Phoenicians from Lebanon. But it appears you are seeing the Near Eastern affinity as more likely coming from Anatolia, Armenia, and Mesopotamia + a North African component and that could contribute to part of it.

Bear in mind that "Sicilian East" is Syracuse, and "Sicilian West" is Trapani. Trapani has higher North African and West European (Norman? Italian resettlement) than other parts of western Sicily, while Syracuse has the least impact from Afroasiatic or Semitic sources. I think if we had a sample from Palermo or other parts of central Sicily, or even Messina/Catania we would see West Asian ancestry increase.

So my rebuttal to your point might be, why does southeast Sicily (and I can show you GEDmatch results from there) not have any significant Near Eastern input in excess of what you might find in say, Lazio or Abruzzo, or the Peloponnese? Why would Armenians, Anatolian Greeks, etc avoid this area but choose to go to Calabria or Messina/Catania? I can show historically that Afroasiatic peoples never settled there en masse.

I do think that a lot of different types of West Asian and North African settlers contribute to the Near Eastern DNA in Sicily and Calabria and certainly some of it could have been Mesopotamian (Armenian, northern Iraqi Arab, etc). In particular I notice in many Palermitans, an elevated Caucasus component, and the ability to model them as a mixture of Assyrian/Armenian + Iberian/North Italian, which I have not been able to come up with a plausible historical explanation other than Muslim settlement from further east than the Levant. Could also be Pontic Greeks, Armenians under Byzantine rule like in Calabria. I am not suggesting all of such affinity is Levantine.

But if history is correct that a migration of Christians from western Sicily arrived in northeast Sicily, we have to realize that we're speaking of Hellenized people with significant Near Eastern ancestry such as Phoenician.

Claudio
08-18-2019, 09:54 PM
double post *

Claudio
08-18-2019, 09:55 PM
“Why would Armenian,Anatolian Greeks etc avoid these area’s but chose to go to Calabria”

Perhaps because people from these populations Were especially attracted to and chose to continually go to Calabria Because Calabria was always the religious Capital of the Orthodox Greek Church of the Byzantine Empire.

Also this is interesting:
32540
Seems to be a reference to Palestinian and Egyptian population movements into Sicily & Calabria under Byzantine administration or some such.

Rene Bascos Sarabia Jr.
08-18-2019, 11:09 PM
What about the Exarchate of Ravenna? Before it fell?


And I think there would also be significant military migration to the Exarchate of Carthage from Byzantine Garrisons too. And the Exarchate of Carthage was nearest to Sicily. My former Religious Order's founding Documents Saint Augustine's "City of God" and "Confessions" we're written in African Romance since Saint Augustine was Bishop of Carthage on the fall of Rome to Germanics.

Rene Bascos Sarabia Jr.
08-18-2019, 11:12 PM
“Why would Armenian,Anatolian Greeks etc avoid these area’s but chose to go to Calabria”

Perhaps because people from these populations Were especially attracted to and chose to continually go to Calabria Because Calabria was always the religious Capital of the Orthodox Greek Church of the Byzantine Empire.

Also this is interesting:
32540
Seems to be a reference to Palestinian and Egyptian population movements into Sicily & Calabria under Byzantine administration or some such.

Well Sicily and Egypt did.have strong connections. If I am not mistaken, the Fatimid Caliphate had territory all the way to Sicily before the Normans captured it from them.

Sikeliot
08-18-2019, 11:22 PM
Well Sicily and Egypt did.have strong connections. If I am not mistaken, the Fatimid Caliphate had territory all the way to Sicily before the Normans captured it from them.

This is true. Sicily saw more migration from Egypt and Tunisia, while Spain/Portugal saw more from Morocco.

So I have to ask, what do people think explains the extra West Asian in the Aegean islands? Do people agree with my explanations?

Claudio
08-18-2019, 11:42 PM
Let me be clear here. I am not asking how much of such admixture exists as we have used models to determine 15-25% is the likely estimate, but rather the route through which it spread i.e. point of dispersal and migration patterns. I have a theory personally that makes historical sense and is historically backed up, after putting some pieces together.

The story is far simpler for southern Italy because there are a lot of gaps in the Aegean islands' history but I think I may have come up with a solution.

Who agrees? Does anyone have a rebuttal?

SOUTHERN ITALY:
Under Byzantine rule, Sicily was homogeneously Greek Orthodox Christian in religion, Greek in language, and Greek in identity. Of these "Greeks" they were certainly not, however, all of the same genetic background. Even today the genetic diversity of different Greek groups testifies to the fact that a large number of populations of different origins became Hellenized and saw themselves as Greeks and would not have known, or cared, whether their ancestors had been Phoenician vs Siculi vs Sicanian. They were just Greeks.

Byzantine Sicily, on a genetic level, likely was mixed between Greeks of various origins and the Italic Siculi people on the eastern side of the island (southeast Sicily like Syracuse is still this way today without much, if any, Levantine input), and a mixture of Greeks and various peoples of West Asian origin (Elymians, Phoenicians, etc.) on the western side. The Sicanians were rapidly Hellenized over 1000 years prior and any descendants of theirs would have been predominantly Greek. There is no evidence of western Sicily having an indigenous Italic population, and no evidence of eastern Sicily, at this point, having any sort of Levantine ancestry.

Western Sicily was first conquered by invading Arabs, which saw a large exodus of Greek Christians (i.e. people of mixed Greek, Phoenician, Elymian, etc. genetic background) from western Sicily to northeastern Sicily, which was the last region of the island to fall to the Arabs and remained predominantly Christian all the way through the Arab conquest. What are today the provinces of Enna, Messina, Catania, and the eastern part of Palermo were flooded by western Sicilian Christians escaping the Arabs, which led to a large transfer of West Asian ancestry to a region where it had previously been absent. The eventual conquest of northeastern Sicily by the Arabs would have seen a further push into Calabria, especially the southern part, and over time as people moved throughout Italy you would have seen dispersal to the rest of the mainland.

A secondary source of Levantine input in southern Italy would be from Greek-speaking Levantines fleeing Arab conquest of the Levant, who would have been more likely to end up in the Aegean islands and southern Italy rather than in mainland Greece, which was already destabilized in its battles against the Slavs.

Today, people from southeastern Sicily such as Syracuse, parts of Ragusa, plot quite close to southern Peloponnesians, Cyclades islanders, and people from center-south Italy like Abruzzo and Lazio, likely reflecting their mixture of Greek and Italic (Siculi) ancestry. Having never had Phoenician or Carthaginian settlement, having not received many Christian refugees from western Sicily, and having only received settlement by Arabs and Berbers along the southern coast, to this very day they are more similar to people from mainland Italy and mainland Greece. Yet northeastern Sicily and Calabria do not, because in my estimation, many of their ancient ancestors had once lived further west in what is now Palermo or Trapani.


AEGEAN ISLANDS:
The Aegean Islands have a significant amount of historically unaccounted-for Levantine ancestry that clearly was not present in Minoans or Mycenaeans. Geographic proximity clearly does not explain it either, otherwise the Minoan and Mycenaean samples would show elevated Afroasiatic ancestry and they do not. This is what I think is the most likely explanation for today's Aegean islanders showing genetic affinity to Semitic-speaking Levantines.

The Levant was Hellenized with a significant Greek Orthodox, Greek-speaking population under Byzantine rule. Like everywhere else, these people would have seen themselves as culturally compatible with other Greek-speaking people, whether in southern Italy, the Greek mainland, or the Greek islands. They would have been Hellenized Canaanites, Aramaeans, and so on but would have regarded themselves as Greeks to some extent.

Similarly to in Sicily where the Arab conquest destabilized the Christian population, the Arab conquest of the Levant likely pushed a lot of Greek Christians westward, toward the Aegean islands and Cyprus. Cyprus, being geographically closest, likely saw the largest demographic impact, followed by the Dodecanese and Crete. Other island chains such as the Cyclades and North Aegean, too, would be impacted but not quite as strongly, and surely some people would have ended up in mainland southern Italy, which was, unlike Sicily, not under Arab rule and still Byzantine.

The Slavic invasion of mainland Greece, which affected everywhere from Thrace to the Peloponnese, would have made mainland Greece inhospitable to Levantine Christians fleeing Arab rule. Byzantine Greece was using all of its resources to fight off the Slavs, and in fact needed to import Greeks from southern Italy and Anatolia to do so and to numerically increase the Greek population against the Slavs. Therefore, if you wonder why these Levantine Christians happened to avoid mainland Greece, it was not by coincidence. It would be like immigrants choosing to come to the United States at a time when the whole nation is embroiled in war on its own soil... it would not happen.

I agree with your reference to Sicilian Christian population movements out of West Sicily escaping the Arab Conquest moving North East etc.
But I don’t think the elevated West Asian/Levantine in North East Sicily and Calabria is as a result of these migrations.
I’m more inclined to think the Elevated West Asian/Levantine in Byzantine South Italy was the other way around and had its eminating source from Calabria with spread to North East Sicily.
From what I have been reading on top of Calabria being the religious capital for the Byzantine Empire there was also direct continual connection and movements with Constantinople itself right up to the fall of Constantinople.
Obviously in the centuries preceding collapse of Byzantine Empire we have the surrounding areas of Constantinople being invaded first by Slavic Tribes from 600AD onwards with Constantinoples much later finally falling to the Turks.
What I do wonder is what the last Byzantine Christian population of Constantinople was Genetically like prior to its collapse?
Perhaps they were genetically most close in Similarity to Calabrian's?

Bleach
08-19-2019, 08:50 AM
What about the Exarchate of Ravenna? Before it fell?


And I think there would also be significant military migration to the Exarchate of Carthage from Byzantine Garrisons too. And the Exarchate of Carthage was nearest to Sicily. My former Religious Order's founding Documents Saint Augustine's "City of God" and "Confessions" we're written in African Romance since Saint Augustine was Bishop of Carthage on the fall of Rome to Germanics.

Yes I think it's correct and I supect Collegno Outliers sample in global 25 to be Byzantine soldiers of the Exarchate of Ravenna burried there from Byzantine/ Lombard wars , they seem to be Southern Italians with an Armenian/Levantine shift

Bleach
08-19-2019, 08:58 AM
This is true. Sicily saw more migration from Egypt and Tunisia, while Spain/Portugal saw more from Morocco.

So I have to ask, what do people think explains the extra West Asian in the Aegean islands? Do people agree with my explanations?

Aegean islands have been impacted by Armenian settlements resulting from the Byzantine policy of populations transfer and Greek Anatolians refugees fleeing Turkish invasions

Bleach
08-19-2019, 09:04 AM
I agree with your reference to Sicilian Christian population movements out of West Sicily escaping the Arab Conquest moving North East etc.
But I don’t think the elevated West Asian/Levantine in North East Sicily and Calabria is as a result of these migrations.
I’m more inclined to think the Elevated West Asian/Levantine in Byzantine South Italy was the other way around and had its eminating source from Calabria with spread to North East Sicily.
From what I have been reading on top of Calabria being the religious capital for the Byzantine Empire there was also direct continual connection and movements with Constantinople itself right up to the fall of Constantinople.
Obviously in the centuries preceding collapse of Byzantine Empire we have the surrounding areas of Constantinople being invaded first by Slavic Tribes from 600AD onwards with Constantinoples much later finally falling to the Turks.
What I do wonder is what the last Byzantine Christian population of Constantinople was Genetically like prior to its collapse?
Perhaps they were genetically most close in Similarity to Calabrian's?

I think they were more like modern people of Dodecanese who don't have Italic roots opposed to Calabrians but otherwise as it's written in the book " Studies on the Internal Diaspora of the Byzantine Empire"
"some Italo Byzantines traveled to Constantinople and stayed there more or less permantely..."

Bleach
08-19-2019, 09:05 AM
double post

Claudio
08-19-2019, 11:23 AM
I think they were more like modern people of Dodecanese who don't have Italic roots opposed to Calabrians but otherwise as it's written in the book " Studies on the Internal Diaspora of the Byzantine Empire"
"some Italo Byzantines traveled to Constantinople and stayed there more or less permantely..."

Agreed.
I wasn’t suggesting the Late Byzantine Constantinople population had italic roots.
I just ment that the population would not be like modern Mainland Greeks but much more West Asian/Levantine like Calabrians from amassing Admixture historically in a similar way, as Byzantine Calabria did,but I agree Dodecanese would be a better modern proxy for a late Byzantine Constantinople population.

Claudio
08-19-2019, 11:39 AM
This is true. Sicily saw more migration from Egypt and Tunisia, while Spain/Portugal saw more from Morocco.

So I have to ask, what do people think explains the extra West Asian in the Aegean islands? Do people agree with my explanations?

I agree with yourself & Bleach’s combined opinion when it comes to your conclusions regarding the Aegean Islands.
It’s just your whole West Asian affinity spreading from pre Arab Conquest West Sicily that I don’t agree with.
Considering West Sicily was completely Greek prior to Arab Conquest,combined with Carthaginians being more Berber than West Asian,combined with phonecian Sicilian ancestry being Autosomaly wiped out by centuries of Greek migrations waves,like I previously said if the West Asian affinity has a historical spread it would be Calabria as source with continued migration to Calabria re-inforcing West Asian affinity Admixture coupled with Calabria not receiving Ostrogoth,Lombard,Norman & Later North & Central Italian Admixture that the rest of Mainland South italy and Sicily received post Arab & Norman era.

Sikeliot
08-19-2019, 11:54 AM
I agree with yourself & Bleach’s combined opinion when it comes to your conclusions regarding the Aegean Islands.
It’s just your whole West Asian affinity spreading from pre Arab Conquest West Sicily that I don’t agree with.
Considering West Sicily was completely Greek prior to Arab Conquest,combined with Carthaginians being more Berber than West Asian,combined with phonecian Sicilian ancestry being Autosomaly wiped out by centuries of Greek migrations waves,like I previously said if the West Asian affinity has a historical spread it would be Calabria as source with continued migration to Calabria re-inforcing West Asian affinity Admixture coupled with Calabria not receiving Ostrogoth,Lombard,Norman & Later North & Central Italian Admixture that the rest of Mainland South italy and Sicily received post Arab & Norman era.

So then you would say people in say, Palermo owe that they usually are shifted, when compared to the Southern Italian average, to either the Levant, North Africa, or Mesopotamia depending on the person to ancestry accumulated from the Arab conquest, due to a wide range of MENA groups settling there? And in Messina/Catania, to movements back and forth with Calabria?

The interesting thing often not discussed here is that southeastern Sicily (Syracuse, some of Ragusa) seems almost unaffected by the Arab conquest or Byzantine West Asian settlement. A lot of the results from there have elevated North Atlantic/North Sea affinity, which I assume means retention of ancestry from the Italic Siculi, while others show elevated Steppe/NE European (which could be from recent Greek migrations), and in almost all cases, West Med is higher than average and East Med lower than average for the island.

Sikeliot
08-19-2019, 11:55 AM
Aegean islands have been impacted by Armenian settlements resulting from the Byzantine policy of populations transfer and Greek Anatolians refugees fleeing Turkish invasions

Since we are presuming this to be responsible for their shift in that direction, this could also explain why many islands, especially Dodecanese, are genetically close to Calabrians in particular.

Bleach
08-19-2019, 12:32 PM
What about West Asian/Levantine inputs to Sicily/Southern Italy far before the Roman/Byzantine era ?
According the Hannah moot pending study, half of republican Romans had already a "modern southern italian"profile

A few time ago ,
Sikeliot suggested that Greek colonist of Magna Greciae could have been more Anatolian shifted than the Emporion/Mycenean samples
Others raised up potential phoenicians settlements over the iron age, but in sicily not in the mainland
I suggested continuous DNA streams from the eastern mediteranean since the early bronze age , blending Mycenean or Aegean BA,
Anatolian BA (Kalehoyuk), even Armenian BA

What are your takes about that ?

Bleach
08-19-2019, 12:46 PM
So then you would say people in say, Palermo owe that they usually are shifted, when compared to the Southern Italian average, to either the Levant, North Africa, or Mesopotamia depending on the person to ancestry accumulated from the Arab conquest, due to a wide range of MENA groups settling there? And in Messina/Catania, to movements back and forth with Calabria?

The interesting thing often not discussed here is that southeastern Sicily (Syracuse, some of Ragusa) seems almost unaffected by the Arab conquest or Byzantine West Asian settlement. A lot of the results from there have elevated North Atlantic/North Sea affinity, which I assume means retention of ancestry from the Italic Siculi, while others show elevated Steppe/NE European (which could be from recent Greek migrations), and in almost all cases, West Med is higher than average and East Med lower than average for the island.

I wasn't aware of that
I guess the eastern sicilian sample of global 25 include as well Messina, Catania as Syracuse , so we cannot make deductions through G25.
Do you have any comparative results from other sources that point out what you bring up

Sikeliot
08-19-2019, 02:09 PM
What about West Asian/Levantine inputs to Sicily/Southern Italy far before the Roman/Byzantine era ?
According the Hannah moot pending study, half of republican Romans had already a "modern southern italian"profile

A few time ago ,
Sikeliot suggested that Greek colonist of Magna Greciae could have been more Anatolian shifted than the Emporion/Mycenean samples
Others raised up potential phoenicians settlements over the iron age, but in sicily not in the mainland
I suggested continuous DNA streams from the eastern mediteranean since the early bronze age , blending Mycenean or Aegean BA,
Anatolian BA (Kalehoyuk), even Armenian BA

What are your takes about that ?

I think Phoenician settlement has had an impact in western Sicily (and the subsequent migration of western Sicilians to northeast Sicily is at least PARTIALLY responsible for the difference between NE and SE Sicilians today) even if minor, but you are correct.

I don't think all or even most Greeks in Sicily were fully Mycenaean-like. Many did come from Anatolia.

I think West Asian influences could be from central Anatolian/Cappadoccian and Pontic Greek settlement, as these people are mostly of native Anatolian and Caucasus descent.

Sikeliot
08-19-2019, 02:25 PM
I wasn't aware of that
I guess the eastern sicilian sample of global 25 include as well Messina, Catania as Syracuse , so we cannot make deductions through G25.
Do you have any comparative results from other sources that point out what you bring up

I think the "East Sicily" sample is from southern Catania and Syracuse, I don't think Messina is represented. Nor is Palermo represented by West Sicily (it's Trapani).

Compare these people, from Syracuse and Ragusa... I don't see any evidence of significant historical MENA input at all... I mean obviously it's there but not in a noteworthy way and these results could be from people much further north in Italy. They are much closer to Abruzzese, Apulians, and southern Peloponnesians. I was suggesting that NE Sicily might be more like this today if not for migrations from Calabria and Palermo area.

#1:

# Population Percent
1 East_Med 27.1
2 West_Med 17.27
3 Atlantic 16.15
4 West_Asian 14.95
5 North_Sea 13.22
6 Baltic 4.28
7 Red_Sea 2.97
8 Sub-Saharan 1.38
9 Eastern_Euro 1.05
10 Northeast_African 0.59
11 Siberian 0.52
12 Southeast_Asian 0.33
13 Oceanian 0.17

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Italian_Abruzzo 4.36
2 Central_Greek 5.77
3 South_Italian 5.93
4 East_Sicilian 5.98
5 West_Sicilian 6.06
6 Tuscan 8.68
7 Ashkenazi 9.04
8 Greek_Thessaly 9.84
9 Greek 9.9
10 Italian_Jewish 10.06
11 Sephardic_Jewish 11.41
12 Algerian_Jewish 11.92
13 North_Italian 14.76
14 Tunisian_Jewish 15.51
15 Bulgarian 16.31
16 Libyan_Jewish 16.85
17 Cyprian 17.83
18 Romanian 17.93
19 Turkish 20.04
20 Serbian 20.75

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 87.8% South_Italian + 12.2% Orcadian @ 3.06
2 87.2% South_Italian + 12.8% Southeast_English @ 3.26
3 87.1% South_Italian + 12.9% Southwest_English @ 3.28
4 88% South_Italian + 12% West_Scottish @ 3.29
5 87.9% South_Italian + 12.1% Irish @ 3.35
6 88.8% South_Italian + 11.2% West_Norwegian @ 3.39
7 85.4% South_Italian + 14.6% West_German @ 3.39
8 88% South_Italian + 12% North_Dutch @ 3.42
9 88% South_Italian + 12% Danish @ 3.42
10 84.1% South_Italian + 15.9% French @ 3.54
11 85.8% South_Italian + 14.2% South_Dutch @ 3.55
12 88.7% South_Italian + 11.3% Norwegian @ 3.56
13 87.6% South_Italian + 12.4% North_German @ 3.62
14 89% South_Italian + 11% Swedish @ 3.7
15 69.6% Italian_Abruzzo + 30.4% South_Italian @ 3.9
16 83.7% South_Italian + 16.3% Spanish_Cataluna @ 3.96
17 89.6% South_Italian + 10.4% North_Swedish @ 3.97
18 83.2% South_Italian + 16.8% Portuguese @ 4.08
19 76.5% Tuscan + 23.5% Assyrian @ 4.09
20 86.2% Italian_Abruzzo + 13.8% Italian_Jewish @ 4.1



#2:

# Population Percent
1 East_Med 28.86
2 Atlantic 18.58
3 West_Med 16.85
4 West_Asian 11.34
5 North_Sea 9.54
6 Red_Sea 6.45
7 Baltic 2.43
8 Northeast_African 2.29
9 Eastern_Euro 1.92
10 Sub-Saharan 1.2
11 Siberian 0.48
12 Oceanian 0.06
13 South_Asian 0.01

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 West_Sicilian 3.58
2 Italian_Abruzzo 6.58
3 East_Sicilian 6.69
4 South_Italian 6.78
5 Italian_Jewish 7.29
6 Sephardic_Jewish 7.84
7 Central_Greek 8.24
8 Algerian_Jewish 8.4
9 Ashkenazi 9.05
10 Tuscan 9.78
11 Greek 11.57
12 Tunisian_Jewish 11.79
13 Greek_Thessaly 12.95
14 Libyan_Jewish 14.37
15 North_Italian 15.81
16 Cyprian 16.93
17 Bulgarian 18.62
18 Lebanese_Muslim 19.84
19 Romanian 20.41
20 Syrian 20.5

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 74.2% Sephardic_Jewish + 25.8% Spanish_Murcia @ 2.34
2 50.5% Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha + 49.5% Lebanese_Christian @ 2.45
3 53% Spanish_Andalucia + 47% Lebanese_Christian @ 2.47
4 76% Sephardic_Jewish + 24% Spanish_Cataluna @ 2.48
5 81.9% West_Sicilian + 18.1% Tunisian_Jewish @ 2.51
6 53.8% Spanish_Andalucia + 46.2% Lebanese_Druze @ 2.53
7 75.6% Sephardic_Jewish + 24.4% Spanish_Valencia @ 2.59
8 51.3% Spanish_Valencia + 48.7% Lebanese_Christian @ 2.62
9 75.8% Sephardic_Jewish + 24.2% Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon @ 2.62
10 67.2% Tunisian_Jewish + 32.8% Spanish_Cataluna @ 2.65
11 75.4% West_Sicilian + 24.6% Sephardic_Jewish @ 2.65
12 76.2% Sephardic_Jewish + 23.8% Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha @ 2.66
13 74.3% Sephardic_Jewish + 25.7% Spanish_Extremadura @ 2.69
14 74.9% Sephardic_Jewish + 25.1% Portuguese @ 2.7
15 51.3% Lebanese_Christian + 48.7% Spanish_Aragon @ 2.72
16 74.4% Sephardic_Jewish + 25.6% Spanish_Andalucia @ 2.75
17 90.9% West_Sicilian + 9.1% Palestinian @ 2.76
18 51.3% Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha + 48.7% Lebanese_Druze @ 2.78
19 78.1% Sephardic_Jewish + 21.9% Spanish_Cantabria @ 2.79
20 75.1% West_Sicilian + 24.9% Italian_Jewish @ 2.79


#3:

# Population Percent
1 East_Med 24.68
2 West_Med 17.78
3 Atlantic 17.22
4 West_Asian 15.27
5 North_Sea 12.84
6 Red_Sea 5.12
7 Baltic 3.48
8 Sub-Saharan 1.72
9 Eastern_Euro 1.66
10 Northeast_African 0.23

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Italian_Abruzzo 3.56
2 West_Sicilian 5.75
3 East_Sicilian 6.08
4 Central_Greek 6.3
5 South_Italian 6.95
6 Tuscan 7.33
7 Ashkenazi 9.09
8 Greek 10.08
9 Greek_Thessaly 10.08
10 Italian_Jewish 10.91
11 Sephardic_Jewish 11.75
12 Algerian_Jewish 12.63
13 North_Italian 13.46
14 Bulgarian 15.98
15 Tunisian_Jewish 16.22
16 Romanian 17.44
17 Libyan_Jewish 17.82
18 Cyprian 18.92
19 Spanish_Extremadura 19.82
20 Serbian 20.11

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 98.5% Italian_Abruzzo + 1.5% Yoruban @ 3.06
2 98.4% Italian_Abruzzo + 1.6% Mandenka @ 3.07
3 98.4% Italian_Abruzzo + 1.6% Bantu_S.W. @ 3.07
4 98.4% Italian_Abruzzo + 1.6% Bantu_S.E. @ 3.08
5 98.3% Italian_Abruzzo + 1.7% Biaka_Pygmy @ 3.09
6 80.2% Tuscan + 19.8% Armenian @ 3.12
7 98.3% Italian_Abruzzo + 1.7% Luhya @ 3.12
8 98.3% Italian_Abruzzo + 1.7% Bantu_N.E. @ 3.12
9 98.3% Italian_Abruzzo + 1.7% Mbuti_Pygmy @ 3.14
10 80.4% Tuscan + 19.6% Georgian_Jewish @ 3.21
11 98.3% Italian_Abruzzo + 1.7% San @ 3.22
12 94.9% Italian_Abruzzo + 5.1% Mozabite_Berber @ 3.27
13 79.9% Tuscan + 20.1% Assyrian @ 3.27
14 95.8% Italian_Abruzzo + 4.2% Sardinian @ 3.29
15 98.5% Italian_Abruzzo + 1.5% Sudanese @ 3.3
16 95% Italian_Abruzzo + 5% Algerian @ 3.32
17 98.6% Italian_Abruzzo + 1.4% Ethiopian_Anuak @ 3.34
18 95.8% Italian_Abruzzo + 4.2% Moroccan @ 3.36
19 95.4% Italian_Abruzzo + 4.6% Tunisian @ 3.37
20 98.6% Italian_Abruzzo + 1.4% Sandawe @ 3.39


#4:

# Population Percent
1 East_Med 29.65
2 West_Med 19.97
3 West_Asian 12.86
4 North_Sea 11.41
5 Atlantic 9.98
6 Red_Sea 5.44
7 Baltic 4.82
8 Eastern_Euro 3
9 Sub-Saharan 1.12
10 South_Asian 0.95
11 Southeast_Asian 0.41
12 Amerindian 0.37
13 Oceanian 0.03

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 South_Italian 5.47
2 East_Sicilian 5.54
3 Central_Greek 5.74
4 Ashkenazi 6.87
5 Italian_Jewish 7.3
6 West_Sicilian 8.33
7 Italian_Abruzzo 8.44
8 Algerian_Jewish 8.74
9 Sephardic_Jewish 9.5
10 Greek_Thessaly 9.65
11 Greek 10.82
12 Tuscan 12.14
13 Libyan_Jewish 12.78
14 Tunisian_Jewish 13.15
15 Cyprian 14.36
16 Bulgarian 18.16
17 North_Italian 18.25
18 Lebanese_Muslim 18.35
19 Syrian 18.86
20 Romanian 20.06

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 58.9% Italian_Jewish + 41.1% Greek_Thessaly @ 3.95
2 53.1% Algerian_Jewish + 46.9% Greek_Thessaly @ 4.12
3 64.8% Cyprian + 35.2% Spanish_Galicia @ 4.32
4 76.5% Central_Greek + 23.5% Libyan_Jewish @ 4.39
5 68.2% Central_Greek + 31.8% Algerian_Jewish @ 4.57
6 62.2% Central_Greek + 37.8% Italian_Jewish @ 4.58
7 58.6% Greek_Thessaly + 41.4% Libyan_Jewish @ 4.83
8 76.6% South_Italian + 23.4% Greek_Thessaly @ 4.84
9 65.8% South_Italian + 34.2% Ashkenazi @ 4.85
10 64.6% Cyprian + 35.4% Portuguese @ 4.9
11 56.6% Cyprian + 43.4% North_Italian @ 4.94
12 89.1% Central_Greek + 10.9% Algerian @ 5.02
13 69.4% East_Sicilian + 30.6% Italian_Jewish @ 5.02
14 50.5% Sephardic_Jewish + 49.5% Greek_Thessaly @ 5.03
15 62.1% Greek_Thessaly + 37.9% Cyprian @ 5.04
16 76.1% East_Sicilian + 23.9% Algerian_Jewish @ 5.06
17 84.1% East_Sicilian + 15.9% Libyan_Jewish @ 5.07
18 54.9% Tuscan + 45.1% Cyprian @ 5.07
19 86.2% South_Italian + 13.8% Libyan_Jewish @ 5.14
20 55% North_Italian + 45% Lebanese_Christian @ 5.15


#5:

# Population Percent
1 East_Med 28.83
2 West_Med 17.28
3 Atlantic 15.98
4 West_Asian 11.92
5 North_Sea 11.9
6 Red_Sea 5.35
7 Baltic 4.52
8 Eastern_Euro 1.63
9 Sub-Saharan 1.6
10 Northeast_African 0.82
11 Siberian 0.17

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 West_Sicilian 3.99
2 East_Sicilian 4.88
3 South_Italian 5.1
4 Italian_Abruzzo 5.13
5 Central_Greek 5.85
6 Italian_Jewish 7.46
7 Ashkenazi 7.54
8 Tuscan 8.87
9 Sephardic_Jewish 8.89
10 Algerian_Jewish 9.01
11 Greek 9.92
12 Greek_Thessaly 10.11
13 Tunisian_Jewish 13.01
14 Libyan_Jewish 14.43
15 North_Italian 15.24
16 Cyprian 16.6
17 Bulgarian 16.94
18 Romanian 18.7
19 Lebanese_Muslim 19.79
20 Syrian 20.53

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 74.3% Tuscan + 25.7% Lebanese_Druze @ 2.39
2 62.1% North_Italian + 37.9% Lebanese_Druze @ 2.48
3 50.6% Spanish_Cataluna + 49.4% Lebanese_Christian @ 2.71
4 61.5% North_Italian + 38.5% Lebanese_Christian @ 2.77
5 58.8% Cyprian + 41.2% Spanish_Cataluna @ 2.77
6 57.2% Cyprian + 42.8% Portuguese @ 2.86
7 74% Tuscan + 26% Lebanese_Christian @ 2.88
8 57.1% Cyprian + 42.9% Spanish_Murcia @ 2.94
9 58.7% Cyprian + 41.3% Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon @ 2.99
10 61.2% West_Sicilian + 38.8% South_Italian @ 3.02
11 67.2% Italian_Abruzzo + 32.8% Algerian_Jewish @ 3.05
12 55% Italian_Jewish + 45% Tuscan @ 3.08
13 51.8% Lebanese_Druze + 48.2% Spanish_Cantabria @ 3.16
14 58.2% Cyprian + 41.8% Spanish_Galicia @ 3.16
15 81.8% Algerian_Jewish + 18.2% Orcadian @ 3.17
16 80.3% Algerian_Jewish + 19.7% Southwest_English @ 3.18
17 77.8% Algerian_Jewish + 22.2% West_German @ 3.19
18 80.6% Algerian_Jewish + 19.4% Southeast_English @ 3.2
19 73% Tuscan + 27% Samaritan @ 3.2
20 81.4% Algerian_Jewish + 18.6% Irish @ 3.22


#6:

# Population Percent
1 East_Med 26.02
2 West_Med 21.14
3 Atlantic 15.09
4 West_Asian 12.76
5 North_Sea 8.52
6 Baltic 5.65
7 Red_Sea 4.38
8 Eastern_Euro 3.94
9 South_Asian 1.15
10 Oceanian 0.73
11 Northeast_African 0.45
12 Southeast_Asian 0.16

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 West_Sicilian 5.06
2 Central_Greek 5.26
3 East_Sicilian 5.28
4 South_Italian 5.64
5 Italian_Abruzzo 6.15
6 Greek 7.45
7 Ashkenazi 8.09
8 Tuscan 8.45
9 Greek_Thessaly 8.99
10 Italian_Jewish 9.49
11 Algerian_Jewish 10.42
12 Sephardic_Jewish 10.63
13 North_Italian 14.46
14 Tunisian_Jewish 15
15 Bulgarian 15.55
16 Libyan_Jewish 16.63
17 Cyprian 17.26
18 Romanian 17.83
19 Serbian 20.78
20 Turkish 21.19

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 85.6% Central_Greek + 14.4% Sardinian @ 2.23
2 86.6% East_Sicilian + 13.4% Sardinian @ 2.96
3 54.6% North_Italian + 45.4% Cyprian @ 3.21
4 61.1% Cyprian + 38.9% Southwest_French @ 3.54
5 60.2% Cyprian + 39.8% Spanish_Cantabria @ 3.61
6 76.5% South_Italian + 23.5% North_Italian @ 3.66
7 86.1% South_Italian + 13.9% Southwest_French @ 3.67
8 68.9% Tuscan + 31.1% Cyprian @ 3.68
9 85.7% South_Italian + 14.3% Spanish_Cantabria @ 3.71
10 83.3% South_Italian + 16.7% Spanish_Andalucia @ 3.78
11 64.4% South_Italian + 35.6% Tuscan @ 3.79
12 87.1% South_Italian + 12.9% Sardinian @ 3.8
13 85.4% Italian_Abruzzo + 14.6% Sardinian @ 3.86
14 52.2% West_Sicilian + 47.8% Central_Greek @ 3.87
15 84.7% South_Italian + 15.3% Spanish_Valencia @ 3.89
16 84.1% South_Italian + 15.9% Portuguese @ 3.91
17 85.3% South_Italian + 14.7% Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha @ 3.91
18 86.2% South_Italian + 13.8% Spanish_Aragon @ 3.94
19 84.7% South_Italian + 15.3% Spanish_Galicia @ 3.95
20 84% South_Italian + 16% Spanish_Extremadura @ 3.95


#7:

# Population Percent
1 East_Med 28.2
2 West_Med 18.61
3 Atlantic 16.38
4 North_Sea 12.17
5 West_Asian 11.62
6 Red_Sea 4.46
7 Baltic 3.93
8 Eastern_Euro 1.75
9 Northeast_African 1.38
10 Southeast_Asian 1.15
11 Siberian 0.22
12 Oceanian 0.08
13 Amerindian 0.05

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 West_Sicilian 3.87
2 Italian_Abruzzo 5.32
3 East_Sicilian 5.57
4 South_Italian 5.75
5 Central_Greek 6.34
6 Italian_Jewish 7.92
7 Tuscan 8.04
8 Ashkenazi 8.4
9 Algerian_Jewish 9.81
10 Sephardic_Jewish 9.83
11 Greek 9.95
12 Greek_Thessaly 10.16
13 Tunisian_Jewish 13.88
14 North_Italian 14.24
15 Libyan_Jewish 15.12
16 Bulgarian 17.01
17 Cyprian 17.53
18 Romanian 18.75
19 Spanish_Extremadura 20.78
20 Spanish_Murcia 20.96

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 50.4% Italian_Jewish + 49.6% Tuscan @ 2.55
2 65.2% Italian_Jewish + 34.8% North_Italian @ 2.63
3 75.3% Italian_Jewish + 24.7% Spanish_Cataluna @ 2.92
4 54.6% Cyprian + 45.4% Spanish_Murcia @ 2.92
5 56.5% Cyprian + 43.5% Spanish_Cataluna @ 2.93
6 64.9% North_Italian + 35.1% Lebanese_Druze @ 2.94
7 54.7% Cyprian + 45.3% Portuguese @ 2.94
8 64.2% North_Italian + 35.8% Lebanese_Christian @ 2.97
9 77.5% Tuscan + 22.5% Lebanese_Druze @ 3
10 81.3% South_Italian + 18.7% Spanish_Murcia @ 3.19
11 77.9% Italian_Jewish + 22.1% French @ 3.23
12 77.2% Tuscan + 22.8% Lebanese_Christian @ 3.24
13 81.5% South_Italian + 18.5% Portuguese @ 3.27
14 70% West_Sicilian + 30% South_Italian @ 3.31
15 56.4% Cyprian + 43.6% Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon @ 3.32
16 55.4% North_Italian + 44.6% Cyprian @ 3.33
17 55.8% Tuscan + 44.2% Algerian_Jewish @ 3.35
18 81.5% South_Italian + 18.5% Spanish_Extremadura @ 3.36
19 75.7% Italian_Jewish + 24.3% Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon @ 3.38
20 74.4% Italian_Jewish + 25.6% Portuguese @ 3.39


#8:

# Population Percent
1 East_Med 25.72
2 West_Med 15.95
3 North_Sea 15.87
4 Atlantic 15.13
5 West_Asian 12.77
6 Red_Sea 6.22
7 Baltic 3.47
8 Eastern_Euro 1.93
9 South_Asian 1.08
10 Sub-Saharan 0.78
11 Siberian 0.49
12 Northeast_African 0.46
13 Southeast_Asian 0.08
14 Amerindian 0.04

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Italian_Abruzzo 5.19
2 East_Sicilian 6.61
3 West_Sicilian 6.79
4 Central_Greek 7.22
5 Ashkenazi 7.94
6 Tuscan 8.11
7 South_Italian 8.32
8 Greek_Thessaly 9.27
9 Italian_Jewish 10.51
10 Greek 11.13
11 Sephardic_Jewish 11.98
12 Algerian_Jewish 12.82
13 North_Italian 13.99
14 Bulgarian 16.09
15 Tunisian_Jewish 16.1
16 Libyan_Jewish 16.45
17 Romanian 17.05
18 Serbian 19.25
19 Cyprian 19.29
20 Spanish_Extremadura 20.04

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 57.5% Spanish_Galicia + 42.5% Kurdish_Jewish @ 2.87
2 58.2% Portuguese + 41.8% Kurdish_Jewish @ 3.13
3 54.9% Cyprian + 45.1% French @ 3.15
4 53% French + 47% Lebanese_Christian @ 3.2
5 77.5% Italian_Jewish + 22.5% Orcadian @ 3.33
6 72.4% Italian_Jewish + 27.6% West_German @ 3.36
7 56.6% Spanish_Galicia + 43.4% Lebanese_Druze @ 3.37
8 69.5% Sephardic_Jewish + 30.5% West_German @ 3.51
9 62.2% Cyprian + 37.8% Southwest_English @ 3.58
10 77.1% Italian_Jewish + 22.9% North_Dutch @ 3.59
11 78.6% Italian_Jewish + 21.4% West_Norwegian @ 3.61
12 76% Italian_Jewish + 24% Southwest_English @ 3.63
13 50.9% Spanish_Galicia + 49.1% Lebanese_Muslim @ 3.67
14 51.6% French + 48.4% Samaritan @ 3.68
15 77.6% Italian_Jewish + 22.4% West_Scottish @ 3.74
16 76.4% Italian_Jewish + 23.6% Southeast_English @ 3.74
17 57.7% Spanish_Galicia + 42.3% Iranian_Jewish @ 3.75
18 56% Spanish_Galicia + 44% Lebanese_Christian @ 3.77
19 77.4% Italian_Jewish + 22.6% Irish @ 3.77
20 78.1% Italian_Jewish + 21.9% Norwegian @ 3.77

Greekscholar
08-19-2019, 02:40 PM
I think what is being assumed in this thread is that the Aegean islands were somehow immune from the chaos going on around them in mid-late Byzantine times, while the opposite is reality. Aegean islanders were dealing with the same types of changes (war, raids, new rulers, new residents) as the Greeks in other parts of the Byzantine world. Small islands, especially, were easy prey for pirates and raiders, and were abandoned many times in their history. They were likely fleeing themselves as often as they were refuges for others.

The simplest explanation is that Aegean islanders have Levantine admix because of the Greek world shrinking back towards them AND admixture from new groups that were setting up house on bigger islands and in Asia Minor. Since bigger islands (think Crete, Cyprus, and Sicily) didn't ever fully depopulate, THEY were probably the main reservoir communities that repopulated the smaller islands when times were good. The evidence for direct Levantine admixture on all of these big islands exists (and has been talked about on this thread) and is likely the source of that element on the smaller islands as well, and that includes Italian populations who were in direct control of various Aegean islands on and off all the way until after 1945.

You can look at some of the PCAs discussed in the other thread to see this. Based on what we have found here, Crete contains nearly all the diversity found in the Aegean islands, Greek Cypriots overlaps with Aegean islanders, especially the Dodecanese, their closest neighboring Greek islands. Sikeliot can tell you similar facts about the diversity in Sicily and Southern Italy. Being "continuum populations" we should expect that these groups have stayed in genetic contact with each other, more or less sharing and spreading these various admixture events among themselves.

Claudio
08-19-2019, 04:34 PM
So then you would say people in say, Palermo owe that they usually are shifted, when compared to the Southern Italian average, to either the Levant, North Africa, or Mesopotamia depending on the person to ancestry accumulated from the Arab conquest, due to a wide range of MENA groups settling there? And in Messina/Catania, to movements back and forth with Calabria?

The interesting thing often not discussed here is that southeastern Sicily (Syracuse, some of Ragusa) seems almost unaffected by the Arab conquest or Byzantine West Asian settlement. A lot of the results from there have elevated North Atlantic/North Sea affinity, which I assume means retention of ancestry from the Italic Siculi, while others show elevated Steppe/NE European (which could be from recent Greek migrations), and in almost all cases, West Med is higher than average and East Med lower than average for the island.

Definitely historically as Iíve mentioned numerous times before (and must sound like a broken record) the population of Palermo doubled in a relatively short period of time with numerous new Towns being founded and old ones re-populated during Arab rule,with Palermo eventually becoming second bigggest City in Arab World after Baghdad.
I think you mentioned the elevated North African and Southwest Asian in Palermo and a fair share of general West Asian Admixture would be from Arab speaking groups from not just Tunisia but Egypt,and migrants from the Levant all the way up to Iraq/Iran etc.

With regards to South East Sicily it could be a combination of retention of italic and more recent Mainland Greek migrations.

Claudio
08-19-2019, 04:54 PM
What about West Asian/Levantine inputs to Sicily/Southern Italy far before the Roman/Byzantine era ?
According the Hannah moot pending study, half of republican Romans had already a "modern southern italian"profile

A few time ago ,
Sikeliot suggested that Greek colonist of Magna Greciae could have been more Anatolian shifted than the Emporion/Mycenean samples
Others raised up potential phoenicians settlements over the iron age, but in sicily not in the mainland
I suggested continuous DNA streams from the eastern mediteranean since the early bronze age , blending Mycenean or Aegean BA,
Anatolian BA (Kalehoyuk), even Armenian BA

What are your takes about that ?

I think it’s swings and roundabouts,and the Admixture levels of different areas of Italy have gone up and Down and up again regarding MENA levels.
Hannah mots study has Central Italian plotting like modern Southern Italians in imperial Roman and late antiquity then after plotting like modern Central Italians so Central Italy must of been later Affected by North Italian and Lombard migrations etc. Calabria being Byzantine was least affected by these later migrations but was at the same time most affected by later Byzantine migrations.

With regards to NorthEast Sicily plotting very similar to Calabria I think it has to do with people of Calabrian ancestry moving to North East Sicily in the 1700’s escaping the devastating Earthquakes in Calabria which were of apocalyptic scale with regards to human life and devastating infrastructure/homelessness:
32552

Claudio
08-19-2019, 05:12 PM
I think the "East Sicily" sample is from southern Catania and Syracuse, I don't think Messina is represented. Nor is Palermo represented by West Sicily (it's Trapani).

Compare these people, from Syracuse and Ragusa... I don't see any evidence of significant historical MENA input at all... I mean obviously it's there but not in a noteworthy way and these results could be from people much further north in Italy. They are much closer to Abruzzese, Apulians, and southern Peloponnesians. I was suggesting that NE Sicily might be more like this today if not for migrations from Calabria and Palermo area.

#1:



#2:


#3:


#4:


#5:


#6:


#7:


#8:

These results are very interesting sikeliot,thanks for sharing.

What’s quite interesting is that although there East Med is much lower like something we might expect in Lazio or Abruzzo Some seem to have elevated Red Sea/North East African? Could this be a sign of pre Arab, Old Roman Carthaginian/Punic ancestry?

Michalis Moriopoulos
08-19-2019, 05:35 PM
I prefer to be parsimonious. The fact that we have Levantine/Iran Neo ancestry showing up in pre-Islamic era Italians (Collegno outliers and Roman Republic-era Lazians) means this ancestry was in Southeastern Europe before there ever was an "Arab rule" in the Levant or North Africa. No doubt Iberia and Sicily were affected by Islamic era gene flow, but I would not assume the same is true for the Aegean or Cyprus. If it's not mostly Phoenician or Punic, I would assume Roman-era movements first. If we get Roman era DNA from the Aegean and they come out like Mycenaeans, then yeah, Christians fleeing Muslims would be the only realistic option left.

Claudio
08-19-2019, 05:44 PM
I prefer to be parsimonious. The fact that we have Levantine/Iran Neo ancestry showing up in pre-Islamic era Italians (Collegno outliers and Roman Republic-era Lazians) means this ancestry was in Southeastern Europe before there ever was an "Arab rule" in the Levant or North Africa. No doubt Iberia and Sicily were affected by Islamic era gene flow, but I would not assume the same is true for the Aegean or Cyprus. If it's not mostly Phoenician or Punic, I would assume Roman-era movements first. If we get Roman era DNA from the Aegean and they come out like Mycenaeans, then yeah, Christians fleeing Muslims would be the only realistic option left.

When you say ‘Roman-era movements’ are you also including ‘Eastern Roman era’ movements as in Byzantine?

Michalis Moriopoulos
08-19-2019, 05:49 PM
Indeed, I mean any pre-Islamic Byzantine movements, as well.

vettor
08-19-2019, 06:15 PM
I prefer to be parsimonious. The fact that we have Levantine/Iran Neo ancestry showing up in pre-Islamic era Italians (Collegno outliers and Roman Republic-era Lazians) means this ancestry was in Southeastern Europe before there ever was an "Arab rule" in the Levant or North Africa. No doubt Iberia and Sicily were affected by Islamic era gene flow, but I would not assume the same is true for the Aegean or Cyprus. If it's not mostly Phoenician or Punic, I would assume Roman-era movements first. If we get Roman era DNA from the Aegean and they come out like Mycenaeans, then yeah, Christians fleeing Muslims would be the only realistic option left.

the first arabs into the levant

Arab conquest of the Levant occurred in the first half of the 7th century.[1] This was the conquest of the region known as the Levant or Shaam, later to become the Islamic Province of Bilad al-Sham, as part of the Islamic conquests. Arab Muslim forces had appeared on the southern borders even before the death of prophet Muhammad in 632,

Levant people prior to this would be Luwian ( north Levant ), Assyrians, Phoenicians, Jews and Palestinians

Maybe the reconquest of North Africa by the Byzantines over the Visigoths could be a re-settlement of Levant people.............over 2 centuries passed before the arab invasion

my guess is that a lot fled dues to
The House of Sasan was the house that founded the Sasanian Empire, ruling this empire from 224 to 651. ..........................even though these Persians only stayed one generation

The Byzantine–Sasanian War of 602–628 was the final and most devastating of the series of wars fought between the Byzantine Empire and the Sasanian Empire of Iran. The previous war between the two powers had ended in 591 after Emperor Maurice helped the Sasanian king Khosrow II regain his throne. In 602 Maurice was murdered by his political rival Phocas. Khosrow proceeded to declare war, ostensibly to avenge the death of Maurice. This became a decades-long conflict, the longest war in the series, and was fought throughout the Middle East: in Egypt, the Levant, Mesopotamia, the Caucasus, Anatolia, Armenia, the Aegean Sea and before the walls of Constantinople itself.

Sikeliot
08-19-2019, 10:21 PM
Definitely historically as Iíve mentioned numerous times before (and must sound like a broken record) the population of Palermo doubled in a relatively short period of time with numerous new Towns being founded and old ones re-populated during Arab rule,with Palermo eventually becoming second bigggest City in Arab World after Baghdad.
I think you mentioned the elevated North African and Southwest Asian in Palermo and a fair share of general West Asian Admixture would be from Arab speaking groups from not just Tunisia but Egypt,and migrants from the Levant all the way up to Iraq/Iran etc.

With regards to South East Sicily it could be a combination of retention of italic and more recent Mainland Greek migrations.

As for Palermo I agree and I also think Caltanissetta and Agrigento would of course be similar. These regions as well as Trapani were most affected by the Arab conquest, although Trapani was repopulated later from the mainland and this shows in their genetics when compared to the other regions (which is interesting because culturally, they are more heavily influenced by the MENA world than most of the island is, food and music and whatnot).

As for SE Sicily I was also considering the higher West Med to be due to Mycenaeans, since we know Mycenaeans seemed to be somewhat shifted toward Sardinians themselves. If SE Sicily has more "archaic" Sicilian and Greek ancestry from the Italics and the Mycenaeans, as well as less MENA input (even Trapani, despite repopulation still shows evidence of having once had higher MENA input), this could easily explain their results.

Sikeliot
08-19-2019, 10:23 PM
I prefer to be parsimonious. The fact that we have Levantine/Iran Neo ancestry showing up in pre-Islamic era Italians (Collegno outliers and Roman Republic-era Lazians) means this ancestry was in Southeastern Europe before there ever was an "Arab rule" in the Levant or North Africa. No doubt Iberia and Sicily were affected by Islamic era gene flow, but I would not assume the same is true for the Aegean or Cyprus. If it's not mostly Phoenician or Punic, I would assume Roman-era movements first. If we get Roman era DNA from the Aegean and they come out like Mycenaeans, then yeah, Christians fleeing Muslims would be the only realistic option left.

Collegno outliers being Calabrian (which is what I think many hypothesized) would signal to me Byzantine input from West Asia, as these samples are closest to today's Calabrians, Dodecanese, and Cretans. I think someone said that Byzantine gene flow from Armenia and Anatolia explains Aegean islanders' increased West Asian. It definitely would not be from Muslim settlement.

Sikeliot
08-20-2019, 11:02 AM
These results are very interesting sikeliot,thanks for sharing.

What’s quite interesting is that although there East Med is much lower like something we might expect in Lazio or Abruzzo Some seem to have elevated Red Sea/North East African? Could this be a sign of pre Arab, Old Roman Carthaginian/Punic ancestry?

Well there was definitely a low level of MENA input but definitely not like what we see in other places. SE Sicily probably changed comparatively little under Arab rule because even though they were conquered, they never had a history of invasion by MENAs and would not have been inclined to mix with them. There also wasn't prior Punic input there to build on... hence low levels of East Med and Red Sea. Some of them as low as 2%! Also worth exploring is Enna, because I have seen some peoples results from there similar to SE Sicily and others more similar to Palermo. In the case of Enna it could be due to the Lombards, who settled there from northern Italy in the Middle Ages.

The lower combined levels of East Med + Red Sea are testament to that. Some of them have Red Sea around 2%, and East Med in the mid-20%s. I consider this low.

Compare to this result though... this person is a third cousin of mine, her family is from Terrasini and Cefalu in Palermo province. I am putting Eurogenes K13, K15, and Dodecad K12b because they all illustrate the difference..

When trying to model her as a mixture of Lebanese and Iberian, when compared to the least North African parts of Spain, she comes out more like 60/40, when comparing to regions with more North African it's more like 50/50 which is because she herself is North African shifted. Compared to "Central Greek" (Maniots, North Aegean islands, etc. type people) she is shifted toward North African Jews.


# Population Percent
1 East_Med 31.19
2 West_Med 23.05
3 North_Atlantic 15.88
4 West_Asian 12.4
5 Baltic 6.81
6 Red_Sea 6.4
7 Sub-Saharan 1.12
8 Northeast_African 1.04
9 East_Asian 0.89
10 South_Asian 0.63
11 Oceanian 0.59

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 South_Italian 3.19
2 East_Sicilian 3.27
3 Central_Greek 5.23
4 West_Sicilian 5.44
5 Ashkenazi 6.35
6 Algerian_Jewish 7
7 Italian_Jewish 7.65
8 Sephardic_Jewish 7.69
9 Italian_Abruzzo 7.7
10 Greek_Thessaly 10.88
11 Tunisian_Jewish 11.48
12 Libyan_Jewish 12.02
13 Tuscan 12.36
14 Cyprian 14.89
15 Lebanese_Muslim 18.62
16 North_Italian 18.7
17 Syrian 19.41
18 Bulgarian 19.77
19 Tunisian 20.67
20 Turkish 21.11

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 71.6% East_Sicilian + 28.4% Algerian_Jewish @ 1.88
2 74.4% West_Sicilian + 25.6% Cyprian @ 1.99
3 58.2% Central_Greek + 41.8% Algerian_Jewish @ 2.04
4 90.4% South_Italian + 9.6% Moroccan @ 2.05
5 89.9% South_Italian + 10.1% Algerian @ 2.1
6 89.6% South_Italian + 10.4% Tunisian @ 2.11
7 90.6% South_Italian + 9.4% Mozabite_Berber @ 2.12
8 80.9% West_Sicilian + 19.1% Samaritan @ 2.22
9 52.7% Algerian_Jewish + 47.3% Italian_Abruzzo @ 2.26
10 75.8% East_Sicilian + 24.2% Italian_Jewish @ 2.3
11 65.3% Cyprian + 34.7% Spanish_Galicia @ 2.34
12 82.1% West_Sicilian + 17.9% Lebanese_Christian @ 2.36
13 57.5% West_Sicilian + 42.5% Algerian_Jewish @ 2.53
14 64.3% Cyprian + 35.7% Portuguese @ 2.55
15 51.6% South_Italian + 48.4% East_Sicilian @ 2.56
16 78.1% East_Sicilian + 21.9% Sephardic_Jewish @ 2.56
17 68% Cyprian + 32% Spanish_Cantabria @ 2.66
18 69.2% Cyprian + 30.8% Southwest_French @ 2.67
19 94.1% East_Sicilian + 5.9% Sardinian @ 2.67
20 62% Algerian_Jewish + 38% Greek_Thessaly @ 2.67


# Population Percent
1 East_Med 30.25
2 West_Med 19.71
3 West_Asian 11.94
4 North_Sea 10.95
5 Atlantic 9.93
6 Red_Sea 6.31
7 Baltic 4.8
8 Eastern_Euro 2.52
9 Sub-Saharan 1.06
10 Northeast_African 1.03
11 Oceanian 0.53
12 Southeast_Asian 0.48
13 South_Asian 0.47

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 East_Sicilian 5.44
2 South_Italian 5.61
3 Italian_Jewish 6.04
4 Central_Greek 6.33
5 Ashkenazi 6.63
6 Algerian_Jewish 7.51
7 West_Sicilian 8.18
8 Sephardic_Jewish 8.58
9 Italian_Abruzzo 8.93
10 Greek_Thessaly 10.31
11 Libyan_Jewish 11.32
12 Greek 11.35
13 Tunisian_Jewish 11.86
14 Tuscan 12.52
15 Cyprian 13.94
16 Lebanese_Muslim 17.85
17 Syrian 18.18
18 North_Italian 18.69
19 Bulgarian 18.72
20 Samaritan 19.63

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 65.7% Italian_Jewish + 34.3% Greek_Thessaly @ 3.19
2 59.3% Algerian_Jewish + 40.7% Greek_Thessaly @ 3.42
3 67.9% Central_Greek + 32.1% Libyan_Jewish @ 3.82
4 52.7% Greek_Thessaly + 47.3% Libyan_Jewish @ 3.88
5 65.7% Cyprian + 34.3% Spanish_Galicia @ 4.03
6 52.2% Italian_Jewish + 47.8% Central_Greek @ 4.16
7 86.8% Italian_Jewish + 13.2% Moldavian @ 4.17
8 75.3% East_Sicilian + 24.7% Libyan_Jewish @ 4.2
9 56.9% Central_Greek + 43.1% Algerian_Jewish @ 4.23
10 55.9% East_Sicilian + 44.1% Italian_Jewish @ 4.27
11 89.9% Italian_Jewish + 10.1% Ukrainian @ 4.32
12 89.6% Italian_Jewish + 10.4% Ukrainian_Lviv @ 4.33
13 65.3% East_Sicilian + 34.7% Algerian_Jewish @ 4.36
14 82.9% Italian_Jewish + 17.1% Romanian @ 4.37
15 88% Italian_Jewish + 12% Hungarian @ 4.4
16 81.5% Italian_Jewish + 18.5% Bulgarian @ 4.41
17 54.7% Italian_Jewish + 45.3% Ashkenazi @ 4.47
18 85% Italian_Jewish + 15% Serbian @ 4.47
19 88.4% Italian_Jewish + 11.6% Croatian @ 4.48
20 72.1% Italian_Jewish + 27.9% Greek @ 4.48


# Population Percent
1 Caucasus 29.52
2 Atlantic_Med 28.65
3 Southwest_Asian 13.53
4 North_European 12.86
5 Gedrosia 9.13
6 Northwest_African 3.97
7 East_African 1.85
8 South_Asian 0.27
9 Sub_Saharan 0.23

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 S_Italian_Sicilian (Dodecad) 7.49
2 Sicilian (Dodecad) 7.93
3 C_Italian (Dodecad) 9.84
4 Ashkenazi (Dodecad) 10.64
5 Ashkenazy_Jews (Behar) 10.97
6 Sephardic_Jews (Behar) 11.05
7 Morocco_Jews (Behar) 11.36
8 O_Italian (Dodecad) 11.67
9 Greek (Dodecad) 12.13
10 Tuscan (HGDP) 13.13
11 TSI30 (Metspalu) 13.65
12 N_Italian (Dodecad) 18.66
13 North_Italian (HGDP) 19.88
14 Cypriots (Behar) 21.38
15 Turkish (Dodecad) 22.44
16 Bulgarian (Dodecad) 22.69
17 Lebanese (Behar) 22.81
18 Bulgarians (Yunusbayev) 23.29
19 Romanians (Behar) 23.83
20 Turks (Behar) 24.5

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 54.2% Lebanese (Behar) + 45.8% Baleares (1000Genomes) @ 1.81
2 57.9% Lebanese (Behar) + 42.1% Spaniards (Behar) @ 2.23
3 58.5% Lebanese (Behar) + 41.5% Cataluna (1000Genomes) @ 2.26
4 59.7% Lebanese (Behar) + 40.3% Cantabria (1000Genomes) @ 2.46
5 59.6% Lebanese (Behar) + 40.4% Valencia (1000Genomes) @ 2.48
6 50.4% Druze (HGDP) + 49.6% Extremadura (1000Genomes) @ 2.58
7 52.1% Galicia (1000Genomes) + 47.9% Iraq_Jews (Behar) @ 2.69
8 54.9% Lebanese (Behar) + 45.1% Extremadura (1000Genomes) @ 2.74
9 54.9% Lebanese (Behar) + 45.1% Galicia (1000Genomes) @ 2.74
10 53.6% Galicia (1000Genomes) + 46.4% Iranian_Jews (Behar) @ 2.76
11 58% N_Italian (Dodecad) + 42% Jordanians (Behar) @ 2.79
12 57.1% Lebanese (Behar) + 42.9% Castilla_Y_Leon (1000Genomes) @ 2.8
13 58.3% Lebanese (Behar) + 41.7% Spanish (Dodecad) @ 2.89
14 60.1% Lebanese (Behar) + 39.9% Aragon (1000Genomes) @ 2.89
15 80.2% Sephardic_Jews (Behar) + 19.8% Argyll (1000Genomes) @ 2.94
16 53.5% North_Italian (HGDP) + 46.5% Lebanese (Behar) @ 2.95
17 50.4% Druze (HGDP) + 49.6% Galicia (1000Genomes) @ 2.96
18 55.1% N_Italian (Dodecad) + 44.9% Lebanese (Behar) @ 2.96
19 50.6% Druze (HGDP) + 49.4% Portuguese (Dodecad) @ 3.02
20 80.6% Sephardic_Jews (Behar) + 19.4% Orcadian (HGDP) @ 3.11

Sikeliot
08-20-2019, 11:22 AM
I also am not sure I agree with the population of Constantinople being similar to Dodecanese as someone suggested.

Constantinople was right next to Thrace. Why wouldn't they have been more genetically continuous with Thracians and the northern part of Greece? Even today, Istanbul Greeks aren't particularly close to Dodecanese.

I see them like slightly Caucasus-shifted mainlanders, not as Aegean islanders. Unless they were also influenced by Slavs and this is not how they always plotted?

See this example:


# Population Percent
1 East_Med 22.76
2 West_Asian 19.34
3 Atlantic 14.21
4 West_Med 12.16
5 Baltic 11.25
6 North_Sea 9.28
7 Eastern_Euro 7.43
8 Red_Sea 2.78
9 Oceanian 0.52
10 Amerindian 0.14
11 Siberian 0.13

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Greek 7.39
2 Central_Greek 8.63
3 Italian_Abruzzo 9.18
4 Greek_Thessaly 9.49
5 Ashkenazi 10.2
6 Bulgarian 10.37
7 East_Sicilian 10.39
8 South_Italian 11.92
9 Romanian 12.5
10 West_Sicilian 12.61
11 Tuscan 13.91
12 Sephardic_Jewish 16.45
13 Serbian 16.5
14 Turkish 16.6
15 Italian_Jewish 16.69
16 Algerian_Jewish 18.11
17 North_Italian 18.73
18 Cyprian 20.1
19 Tunisian_Jewish 20.14
20 Azeri 20.51

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 70.6% Bulgarian + 29.4% Armenian @ 2.64
2 70.7% Bulgarian + 29.3% Georgian_Jewish @ 2.65
3 80.2% Greek + 19.8% Lezgin @ 2.66
4 77.7% Greek + 22.3% Kumyk @ 2.69
5 80.9% Greek + 19.1% Adygei @ 2.71
6 81.5% Greek + 18.5% Chechen @ 2.87
7 82.3% Greek + 17.7% North_Ossetian @ 2.97
8 80.6% Greek + 19.4% Kabardin @ 3.01
9 81.2% Greek + 18.8% Tabassaran @ 3.11
10 70.8% Bulgarian + 29.2% Assyrian @ 3.16
11 83% Greek + 17% Georgian @ 3.2
12 82.5% Greek + 17.5% Ossetian @ 3.21
13 62.3% Bulgarian + 37.7% Turkish @ 3.26
14 81.2% Greek + 18.8% Balkar @ 3.28
15 84.7% Greek + 15.3% Abhkasian @ 3.35
16 66.9% Romanian + 33.1% Georgian_Jewish @ 3.87
17 70.9% Bulgarian + 29.1% Kurdish @ 3.91
18 66.9% Romanian + 33.1% Armenian @ 4
19 66.8% Romanian + 33.2% Assyrian @ 4.03
20 73.8% Bulgarian + 26.2% Kurdish_Jewish @ 4.04



# Population Percent
1 Caucasus 32.65
2 Atlantic_Med 24.98
3 North_European 23.59
4 Gedrosia 8.46
5 Southwest_Asian 8.44
6 Siberian 0.84
7 Northwest_African 0.68
8 Sub_Saharan 0.2
9 East_African 0.16

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Greek (Dodecad) 7.78
2 O_Italian (Dodecad) 9.26
3 C_Italian (Dodecad) 11.6
4 Bulgarian (Dodecad) 11.79
5 Bulgarians (Yunusbayev) 12.61
6 S_Italian_Sicilian (Dodecad) 13.26
7 Romanians (Behar) 13.32
8 Ashkenazy_Jews (Behar) 13.38
9 Tuscan (HGDP) 13.53
10 Sicilian (Dodecad) 13.56
11 Ashkenazi (Dodecad) 13.99
12 TSI30 (Metspalu) 14.34
13 N_Italian (Dodecad) 17.86
14 Sephardic_Jews (Behar) 19.22
15 North_Italian (HGDP) 20.32
16 Morocco_Jews (Behar) 21.49
17 Turkish (Dodecad) 21.77
18 Turks (Behar) 23.94
19 Cypriots (Behar) 25.06
20 Nogais (Yunusbayev) 27.09

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 78.6% O_Italian (Dodecad) + 21.4% Chechens (Yunusbayev) @ 3.19
2 56.1% Cypriots (Behar) + 43.9% German (Dodecad) @ 3.2
3 75.8% O_Italian (Dodecad) + 24.2% Kumyks (Yunusbayev) @ 3.37
4 78.9% O_Italian (Dodecad) + 21.1% Lezgins (Behar) @ 3.58
5 63.1% Cypriots (Behar) + 36.9% Swedish (Dodecad) @ 3.64
6 63.1% Cypriots (Behar) + 36.9% Norwegian (Dodecad) @ 3.66
7 80% O_Italian (Dodecad) + 20% North_Ossetians (Yunusbayev) @ 3.79
8 79.2% O_Italian (Dodecad) + 20.8% Adygei (HGDP) @ 3.81
9 79.7% O_Italian (Dodecad) + 20.3% Balkars (Yunusbayev) @ 3.84
10 77.7% S_Italian_Sicilian (Dodecad) + 22.3% Mordovians (Yunusbayev) @ 3.94
11 84.4% Greek (Dodecad) + 15.6% Tajiks (Yunusbayev) @ 4.19
12 53.3% Bulgarian (Dodecad) + 46.7% S_Italian_Sicilian (Dodecad) @ 4.34
13 57.3% Cypriots (Behar) + 42.7% Mixed_Germanic (Dodecad) @ 4.44
14 78.4% S_Italian_Sicilian (Dodecad) + 21.6% Russian (Dodecad) @ 4.47
15 52.7% Cypriots (Behar) + 47.3% Hungarians (Behar) @ 4.5
16 78.4% S_Italian_Sicilian (Dodecad) + 21.6% Russian_B (Behar) @ 4.51
17 58.7% Cypriots (Behar) + 41.3% Dutch (Dodecad) @ 4.62
18 78.9% S_Italian_Sicilian (Dodecad) + 21.1% Russian (HGDP) @ 4.63
19 50.1% S_Italian_Sicilian (Dodecad) + 49.9% Romanians (Behar) @ 4.66
20 63.3% Bulgarian (Dodecad) + 36.7% Sephardic_Jews (Behar) @ 4.67

Kanenas
08-20-2019, 12:11 PM
Islanders should not be compared to 'Minoans' and 'Mycenaeans' that way.

The models should include samples from Cycladic civ. + 'Minoan' + Anatolia BA + Classical Greek + possible more recent influences.

Without proper data, these speculations are useless. (I know Sikeliot does not care about data, he is well known).

Sikeliot
08-20-2019, 12:23 PM
Islanders should not be compared to 'Minoans' and 'Mycenaeans' that way.

The models should include samples from Cycladic civ. + 'Minoan' + Anatolia BA + Classical Greek + possible more recent influences.

Without proper data, these speculations are useless. (I know Sikeliot does not care about data, he is well known).

Why should we assume those populations like Cycladic peoples would differ from Minoans?

Claudio
08-20-2019, 01:04 PM
I also am not sure I agree with the population of Constantinople being similar to Dodecanese as someone suggested.

Constantinople was right next to Thrace. Why wouldn't they have been more genetically continuous with Thracians and the northern part of Greece? Even today, Istanbul Greeks aren't particularly close to Dodecanese.

I see them like slightly Caucasus-shifted mainlanders, not as Aegean islanders. Unless they were also influenced by Slavs and this is not how they always plotted?

See this example:

The longer the Byzantine Empire went on the more integral Syrian and Armenians became to Byzantine hierarchy and Miiitary,Especially later,Armenians warrior nobles became very important.
I think this is what we are seeing in Calabria being religious Capital of Byzantine Empire and not receiveing later Lombard and North Italian & Norman influence.
I think that as Constantinople got smaller and smaller before it fell its population within the city would not be like Mainland modern Greeks but probably very West Asian similar to what happened in Calabria regarding Byzantine genetic influence,except the Original Base was Greek rather than italic,so if Dodecanese are Similarly west Asian shifted like Calabrians perhaps they are a better choice for proxy late Byzantine era Constantinople.

Greekscholar
08-20-2019, 04:48 PM
Here is my K15 PCA. It has two individuals that have 4/4 grandparents from Constantinople. They are roughly close to the "Central Greece" sample. So, sort of intermediate between the mainland samples and the Dodecanese samples, closest to NE Aegean islanders and two Cretans.

Claudio
08-20-2019, 08:49 PM
Here is my K15 PCA. It has two individuals that have 4/4 grandparents from Constantinople. They are roughly close to the "Central Greece" sample. So, sort of intermediate between the mainland samples and the Dodecanese samples, closest to NE Aegean islanders and two Cretans.

But do you think they are a good representation of what the population inside the city walls was like in the 15th Century?
I’m a bit rusty on my late Byzantine history but toward the fall of Constantinople lots of Byzantines emigrated all across Italy,if I remember correctly they kicked started the renaissance in Italy. (Venice,Rome,Calabria)
I’m not sure what Admixture groups moved in to Constantinople after the fall,Turks,Slavs,Balkan groups??
Modern Constantinople population might plot/or be different to late Byzantine era?

Greekscholar
08-20-2019, 09:29 PM
But do you think they are a good representation of what the population inside the city walls was like in the 15th Century?
I’m a bit rusty on my late Byzantine history but toward the fall of Constantinople lots of Byzantines emigrated all across Italy,if I remember correctly they kicked started the renaissance in Italy. (Venice,Rome,Calabria)
I’m not sure what Admixture groups moved in to Constantinople after the fall,Turks,Slavs,Balkan groups??
Modern Constantinople population might plot/or be different to late Byzantine era?

The city was already depopulating, and something like 30k-35k of the 50k in the city were killed or sold into slavery. So, you are almost talking about a replacement event. I don't assume genetic continuity before and after the event, but don't know enough to rule it out either. I included those two recent samples for discussion because they are similar to Greeks that live on the islands in NE Aegean today. So at least in the early 20th century, this very limited sample size could mean those two Greeks of Constantinople were still part of the continuum populations, and clustered with Greek islanders, albeit the ones that tend to show more mainland affinity than those further south.

My questions about the two hypotheses put forth, Thracian and Dodecanese for medieval Constantinople would be this.

1. Even with geographic proximity, would Thracian Greeks be a close match to Greeks in the Imperial Capital of a much larger world? Or would the Greeks there come from all over the empire?
2. Do the modern Dodecanese islands plot as they do in regard to Cyprus (the two populations overlap at the ends) because of similarities present in medevial populations? Or is the affinity because of periods of abandonment and repopulation episodes involving Cypriots, whose home on a bigger island made it more secure in times of disorder and unrest?

I don't know the answers to these questions, but the second one especially is of great interest to me.

Sikeliot
08-20-2019, 09:42 PM
The longer the Byzantine Empire went on the more integral Syrian and Armenians became to Byzantine hierarchy and Miiitary,Especially later,Armenians warrior nobles became very important.
I think this is what we are seeing in Calabria being religious Capital of Byzantine Empire and not receiveing later Lombard and North Italian & Norman influence.
I think that as Constantinople got smaller and smaller before it fell its population within the city would not be like Mainland modern Greeks but probably very West Asian similar to what happened in Calabria regarding Byzantine genetic influence,except the Original Base was Greek rather than italic,so if Dodecanese are Similarly west Asian shifted like Calabrians perhaps they are a better choice for proxy late Byzantine era Constantinople.

I am not sure how much Italic ancestry remains in Calabria. Certainly less than in southeastern Sicily or Trapani. And I seem to find Apulians not to be very "Italic" like either, but firmly Peloponnesian/Maniot like. But I think that is because Apulia has a lot of recent Greek from the last 1000 years.

As far as Istanbul goes it could be that the Greeks alive today who descend from there either had recent ancestry from the Greek mainland and/or the Greeks in Istanbul had been affected by the Slavic migrations. Not sure which theory you find more likely.

Sikeliot
08-20-2019, 10:08 PM
2. Do the modern Dodecanese islands plot as they do in regard to Cyprus (the two populations overlap at the ends) because of similarities present in medevial populations? Or is the affinity because of periods of abandonment and repopulation episodes involving Cypriots, whose home on a bigger island made it more secure in times of disorder and unrest?

I don't know the answers to these questions, but the second one especially is of great interest to me.

My impression is it is because of the Dodecanese receiving settlement from Cyprus and/or Anatolia, which shifted them toward West Asia. I suspect it is similar to what happened in Calabria and that Armenians, Anatolians, and Mesopotamians settled in all three places under Byzantine rule.

Claudio
08-20-2019, 11:25 PM
I am not sure how much Italic ancestry remains in Calabria. Certainly less than in southeastern Sicily or Trapani. And I seem to find Apulians not to be very "Italic" like either, but firmly Peloponnesian/Maniot like. But I think that is because Apulia has a lot of recent Greek from the last 1000 years.

As far as Istanbul goes it could be that the Greeks alive today who descend from there either had recent ancestry from the Greek mainland and/or the Greeks in Istanbul had been affected by the Slavic migrations. Not sure which theory you find more likely.

Well considering what ‘GreekScholar’ mentioned in previous post about the fate of the Late Byzantine population of Constantinople,coupled that Constantinople was a cosmopolitan city I imagine on the whole the Late Byzantine population probably plotted somewhere inbetween Calabrian’s and Cypriots.

As for Apulia if I remember correctly one of the book excerpts I posted earlier mentions 7th - 10th Century migrations from Patras in Mainland Greece:
32586

Claudio
08-20-2019, 11:26 PM
Double Post*

Sikeliot
08-20-2019, 11:43 PM
Well considering what ‘GreekScholar’ mentioned in previous post about the fate of the Late Byzantine population of Constantinople,coupled that Constantinople was a cosmopolitan city I imagine on the whole the Late Byzantine population probably plotted somewhere inbetween Calabrian’s and Cypriots.

As for Apulia if I remember correctly one of the book excerpts I posted earlier mentions 7th - 10th Century migrations from Patras in Mainland Greece:
32586

So my question is why do today's Istanbul Greeks shift toward the mainland? Were they affected by the Slavic migrations when they originally happened, or rather, do they have recent mainland Greek input?

Claudio
08-20-2019, 11:55 PM
So my question is why do today's Istanbul Greeks shift toward the mainland? Were they affected by the Slavic migrations when they originally happened, or rather, do they have recent mainland Greek input?

Not sure,maybe both.

TonyC
08-21-2019, 02:09 AM
So my question is why do today's Istanbul Greeks shift toward the mainland? Were they affected by the Slavic migrations when they originally happened, or rather, do they have recent mainland Greek input?

I've never seen an Istanbul Greek's autosomal results. Do you have samples? I would guess they're Thracian leaning with a miniscule Anatolian influence.

Sikeliot
08-21-2019, 02:18 AM
I've never seen an Istanbul Greek's autosomal results. Do you have samples? I would guess they're Thracian leaning with a miniscule Anatolian influence.

I posted one on the previous page, they are very close to the people's results I have from Thrace and Macedonia, with a small amount additional Caucasus input.

Greekscholar
08-21-2019, 02:36 PM
Here are the two Constantinople samples I have mapped with K36. Let me know what other test results you want to see. These two are siblings, but a bit different on this test. One sample really "lights up the Byzantine world" and is a strong match to mainland Greece, the Aegean islands, and Southern Italy/Sicily. The other siblings is a more general match to those same places, but is a strongest match to Crete. There may not be one profile for a Constantinople Greek, it was a big cosmopolitan city holding lots of cosmopolitan people.

Smyrna or other Western Asia Minor Greeks would be my wish list right now. Greeks lived there for 1,000s of years and may be the population that had the fewest depopulation/repopulation events in that area.

TonyC
08-22-2019, 01:13 AM
Here are the two Constantinople samples I have mapped with K36. Let me know what other test results you want to see. These two are siblings, but a bit different on this test. One sample really "lights up the Byzantine world" and is a strong match to mainland Greece, the Aegean islands, and Southern Italy/Sicily. The other siblings is a more general match to those same places, but is a strongest match to Crete. There may not be one profile for a Constantinople Greek, it was a big cosmopolitan city holding lots of cosmopolitan people.

Smyrna or other Western Asia Minor Greeks would be my wish list right now. Greeks lived there for 1,000s of years and may be the population that had the fewest depopulation/repopulation events in that area.

It's amazing that the one Constantinople result shares such affinity with the mainland. I would guess that it just has to do with the admixture of that sample; NE Greek (Slavic like) plus a minor Anatolian component. I always guessed that Greeks from Constantinople were like other Western Anatolian Greeks; i.e., more Caucasus leaning.

Assiette mix
08-22-2019, 05:19 AM
Sicily was by no way mainly Greek speaking or Greek Orthodox under byzantine rule.

32612

32613

Regarding OP's topic, Orthodox Levantines welcomed the Arabs as liberators from the Byzantine oppression. It wouldn't make any sense for them to flee from the Muslims.

Assiette mix
08-22-2019, 05:27 AM
I am not sure how much Italic ancestry remains in Calabria. Certainly less than in southeastern Sicily or Trapani. And I seem to find Apulians not to be very "Italic" like either, but firmly Peloponnesian/Maniot like. But I think that is because Apulia has a lot of recent Greek from the last 1000 years.

As far as Istanbul goes it could be that the Greeks alive today who descend from there either had recent ancestry from the Greek mainland and/or the Greeks in Istanbul had been affected by the Slavic migrations. Not sure which theory you find more likely.

Apulians (including Griko speakers) are barely different from Calabrians and Lucanians. Stop with this nonsense.

32614

Sikeliot
08-22-2019, 11:37 AM
Regarding OP's topic, Orthodox Levantines welcomed the Arabs as liberators from the Byzantine oppression. It wouldn't make any sense for them to flee from the Muslims.

I'd never heard this before but if it is true it would make sense that they might assume more kinship to other Semitic-speaking Middle Easterners. But the question I would have is, did they find their expectations to be correct once Arab rule was established, or did they face systematic oppression that, in the end, pushed them out?

As far as Sicily not being predominantly Greek speaking and Greek Orthodox under Byzantine rule, if this is true according to verified historical sources then I can admit to being wrong.


Apulians (including Griko speakers) are barely different from Calabrians and Lucanians. Stop with this nonsense.

32614

I go by the science now and can admit if I am wrong, so I am going to, actually, agree with you here.

On that chart the only outlier for southern Italy appears to be Trapani. This was also confirmed by the study on Crete. Ragusa actually here is not an outlier either, nor was it in the Cretan study so I am going to not say that anymore either. Syracuse has never been sampled in any study, I personally suspect it would be an outlier like Trapani is but I don't plan to post about this topic much anymore either so if it turns out I am wrong, I am wrong.

Since I always say "we must go with what the science says" (which is the entire reason I stopped posting about or even caring about comparing phenotypes, it's unscientific and subjective) I am actually going to do that here and not impose my own view, given that other than self-reported ancestry on GEDmatch I cannot truly verify the 4 Apulian results I have posted.

This topic has actually been covered ad-nauseam so you probably won't see me post much about southern Italy or Greece anymore either.

Greekscholar
08-22-2019, 02:18 PM
I'd never heard this before but if it is true it would make sense that they might assume more kinship to other Semitic-speaking Middle Easterners. But the question I would have is, did they find their expectations to be correct once Arab rule was established, or did they face systematic oppression that, in the end, pushed them out?

As far as Sicily not being predominantly Greek speaking and Greek Orthodox under Byzantine rule, if this is true according to verified historical sources then I can admit to being wrong.



I go by the science now and can admit if I am wrong, so I am going to, actually, agree with you here.

On that chart the only outlier for southern Italy appears to be Trapani. This was also confirmed by the study on Crete. Ragusa actually here is not an outlier either, nor was it in the Cretan study so I am going to not say that anymore either. Syracuse has never been sampled in any study, I personally suspect it would be an outlier like Trapani is but I don't plan to post about this topic much anymore either so if it turns out I am wrong, I am wrong.

Since I always say "we must go with what the science says" (which is the entire reason I stopped posting about or even caring about comparing phenotypes, it's unscientific and subjective) I am actually going to do that here and not impose my own view, given that other than self-reported ancestry on GEDmatch I cannot truly verify the 4 Apulian results I have posted.

This topic has actually been covered ad-nauseam so you probably won't see me post much about southern Italy or Greece anymore either.

A few things here:

1. You can only post the samples you find. Whether they are representative of the locality, or not, can only be determined by looking at samples. So long as your methodology is sound (no cherry picking of samples to fit an agenda, making sure the person at least self-reports long standing family ancestry in the location) you should post samples. Sharing information is a key part of this chatroom and our discussions

2. You are not the only person who feels Apulians differ from other Southern Italian populations. We have seen it on K36, and to be honest, I see it on that 4-component PCA posted above. The Apulians have less Near East + European than any other SSI samples on that chart. There closest peers on these components are the Arbereshe samples, which is what you have found as well (the mainland shift as you like to call it.) ALL OF THESE samples are from our Continuum populations(or their closest neighbors) so I would really hope a 4-component analysis finds them very similar overall. That doesn't mean other tests can't distill down the differences that even this PCA shows.

3. This is a chatroom! It only exists because conversations are started and debates are had! If none of us take the chance to put forth an idea, a hypothesis, some samples we found, there is literally no reason for this place to exist. This isn't a list-serv for Ph.Ds to discuss peer reviewed work only. It is for regular, average, citizen researchers and interested parties as well.B)

Andrewid
08-22-2019, 04:01 PM
A few things here:

1. You can only post the samples you find. Whether they are representative of the locality, or not, can only be determined by looking at samples. So long as your methodology is sound (no cherry picking of samples to fit an agenda, making sure the person at least self-reports long standing family ancestry in the location) you should post samples. Sharing information is a key part of this chatroom and our discussions

2. You are not the only person who feels Apulians differ from other Southern Italian populations. We have seen it on K36, and to be honest, I see it on that 4-component PCA posted above. The Apulians have less Near East + European than any other SSI samples on that chart. There closest peers on these components are the Arbereshe samples, which is what you have found as well (the mainland shift as you like to call it.) ALL OF THESE samples are from our Continuum populations(or their closest neighbors) so I would really hope a 4-component analysis finds them very similar overall. That doesn't mean other tests can't distill down the differences that even this PCA shows.

3. This is a chatroom! It only exists because conversations are started and debates are had! If none of us take the chance to put forth an idea, a hypothesis, some samples we found, there is literally no reason for this place to exist. This isn't a list-serv for Ph.Ds to discuss peer reviewed work only. It is for regular, average, citizen researchers and interested parties as well.B)

Totally agree. I don't always concur with Sikeliot but that's the art of discussion, and his contributions are valuable and informative. As you say, neither Sikeliot or anyone else is here to defend a PhD thesis. This is a forum at the end of the day. Of course, posters need to defend their positions through reasoned argument, and avoid intentionally inflamatory discourse. Beyond that, all contributions are welcome. I also notice the K36 difference with Puglia and we know from recent statements from Davidski that K36 is still a good barometer of modern populations. Now why precisely Puglians do differ is why we have a discussion thread. Likewise, the similarity 'spike' for Aegean and Cypriot Greeks in Trabzon/Trapezounta is also open to different interpretations. Vive la discussion.

Sikeliot
08-22-2019, 09:34 PM
A few things here:

1. You can only post the samples you find. Whether they are representative of the locality, or not, can only be determined by looking at samples. So long as your methodology is sound (no cherry picking of samples to fit an agenda, making sure the person at least self-reports long standing family ancestry in the location) you should post samples. Sharing information is a key part of this chatroom and our discussions

2. You are not the only person who feels Apulians differ from other Southern Italian populations. We have seen it on K36, and to be honest, I see it on that 4-component PCA posted above. The Apulians have less Near East + European than any other SSI samples on that chart. There closest peers on these components are the Arbereshe samples, which is what you have found as well (the mainland shift as you like to call it.) ALL OF THESE samples are from our Continuum populations(or their closest neighbors) so I would really hope a 4-component analysis finds them very similar overall. That doesn't mean other tests can't distill down the differences that even this PCA shows.

3. This is a chatroom! It only exists because conversations are started and debates are had! If none of us take the chance to put forth an idea, a hypothesis, some samples we found, there is literally no reason for this place to exist. This isn't a list-serv for Ph.Ds to discuss peer reviewed work only. It is for regular, average, citizen researchers and interested parties as well.B)

I only have 4 Apulian samples. In those samples I do notice a difference to Sicilians/Calabrians on the basis of the Apulians having more Steppe input and noticeably less Near Eastern (Sarno et al actually confirms this if you look at the red "Near Eastern" component which looks about 20% in Palermo, Agrigento, Catania, etc. but about half of that in Apulia), but I just hope to find more samples before figuring out if that's an all-encompassing trend. What is interesting is, I also noticed my Ragusa samples I have from Sicily to be "north" shifted too, but both the Sarno et al 2017 study and the Cretan study found no difference between them and other parts of Sicily (and also had Ragusa plotting with Crete), unlike Trapani which was seen as the only outlier. So I am wondering where the disconnect is coming from and I just want to be careful not to come off unscientific or like I am denying the peer reviewed studies. But I do appreciate your post.

TonyC
08-23-2019, 12:18 AM
A few things here:

1. You can only post the samples you find. Whether they are representative of the locality, or not, can only be determined by looking at samples. So long as your methodology is sound (no cherry picking of samples to fit an agenda, making sure the person at least self-reports long standing family ancestry in the location) you should post samples. Sharing information is a key part of this chatroom and our discussions

2. You are not the only person who feels Apulians differ from other Southern Italian populations. We have seen it on K36, and to be honest, I see it on that 4-component PCA posted above. The Apulians have less Near East + European than any other SSI samples on that chart. There closest peers on these components are the Arbereshe samples, which is what you have found as well (the mainland shift as you like to call it.) ALL OF THESE samples are from our Continuum populations(or their closest neighbors) so I would really hope a 4-component analysis finds them very similar overall. That doesn't mean other tests can't distill down the differences that even this PCA shows.

3. This is a chatroom! It only exists because conversations are started and debates are had! If none of us take the chance to put forth an idea, a hypothesis, some samples we found, there is literally no reason for this place to exist. This isn't a list-serv for Ph.Ds to discuss peer reviewed work only. It is for regular, average, citizen researchers and interested parties as well.B)

You have such a refreshing perspective.

Sikeliot
08-23-2019, 02:14 AM
Something else I can throw in there is that even with various shifts and minor differences (i.e. higher North/West European in Trapani, higher MENA in Palermo or Agrigento, higher mainland Greek/Balkan in Apulia and Syracuse), all of the regions of South Italy plot closer to one another, Western Jews, Maniots, and Aegean island Greeks than to anyone else. They are all subsets of one cluster and we have called it many names -- East Med continuum, SE Europe, Aegean/Greco-Roman, what have you -- but it's like comparing Ireland and UK.

Greekscholar
08-23-2019, 03:07 PM
Something else I can throw in there is that even with various shifts and minor differences (i.e. higher North/West European in Trapani, higher MENA in Palermo or Agrigento, higher mainland Greek/Balkan in Apulia and Syracuse), all of the regions of South Italy plot closer to one another, Western Jews, Maniots, and Aegean island Greeks than to anyone else. They are all subsets of one cluster and we have called it many names -- East Med continuum, SE Europe, Aegean/Greco-Roman, what have you -- but it's like comparing Ireland and UK.

Do you have any Maniot samples? I would love to see MDLP K16 and Eurogenes K15 if you do. I have heard that this population "bridges the gap" between the mainland and the islands, but I have never seen a sample. Lots of good books written about Mani, for what it is worth.

Sikeliot
08-23-2019, 10:21 PM
Do you have any Maniot samples? I would love to see MDLP K16 and Eurogenes K15 if you do. I have heard that this population "bridges the gap" between the mainland and the islands, but I have never seen a sample. Lots of good books written about Mani, for what it is worth.

They are similar to Apulians, pretty much.


# Population Percent
1 East_Med 25.93
2 West_Asian 14.84
3 West_Med 14.09
4 Atlantic 14.05
5 Baltic 12.67
6 North_Sea 7.6
7 Eastern_Euro 5.94
8 Red_Sea 4.13
9 Southeast_Asian 0.38
10 Oceanian 0.18
11 Amerindian 0.14
12 South_Asian 0.06

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Greek 4.61
2 Central_Greek 6.59
3 Ashkenazi 7.83
4 Greek_Thessaly 7.87
5 East_Sicilian 7.94
6 Italian_Abruzzo 8.31
7 South_Italian 9.25
8 West_Sicilian 9.98
9 Bulgarian 10.86
10 Tuscan 12.59
11 Sephardic_Jewish 13.47
12 Italian_Jewish 13.6
13 Romanian 13.63
14 Algerian_Jewish 14.53
15 Tunisian_Jewish 17.05
16 Serbian 17.56
17 Cyprian 17.89
18 North_Italian 18.01
19 Turkish 18.63
20 Libyan_Jewish 19.33

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 62.6% Bulgarian + 37.4% Cyprian @ 2.28
2 87.5% Greek + 12.5% Iranian_Jewish @ 2.74
3 87% Greek + 13% Assyrian @ 2.83
4 88.2% Greek + 11.8% Kurdish_Jewish @ 2.91
5 87.7% Greek + 12.3% Georgian_Jewish @ 2.92
6 85.1% Greek + 14.9% Lebanese_Muslim @ 2.96
7 70.9% Bulgarian + 29.1% Lebanese_Christian @ 3.01
8 88.4% Greek + 11.6% Lebanese_Druze @ 3.1
9 86.2% Greek + 13.8% Syrian @ 3.12
10 88.4% Greek + 11.6% Kurdish @ 3.14
11 88.9% Greek + 11.1% Iranian @ 3.16
12 88.5% Greek + 11.5% Lebanese_Christian @ 3.22
13 84.9% Greek + 15.1% Turkish @ 3.25
14 87.4% Greek + 12.6% Azeri @ 3.27
15 88.9% Greek + 11.1% Armenian @ 3.27
16 88.2% Greek + 11.8% Jordanian @ 3.3
17 88.7% Greek + 11.3% Palestinian @ 3.3
18 70.1% Bulgarian + 29.9% Samaritan @ 3.31
19 57.5% Cyprian + 42.5% Croatian @ 3.42
20 88.7% Greek + 11.3% Samaritan @ 3.42



For comparison to a "typical" Sicilian here is someone from the Palermo region. They are closer than other mainland Greeks would be to Sicilians, but not as much as Aegean islands are.


# Population Percent
1 East_Med 28.6
2 West_Asian 16.12
3 West_Med 14.94
4 Atlantic 14.87
5 North_Sea 9.47
6 Baltic 7.16
7 Red_Sea 5.81
8 Northeast_African 1.56
9 Eastern_Euro 1.47
10 Southeast_Asian 0.01

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 East_Sicilian 3.6
2 Central_Greek 3.89
3 South_Italian 4.09
4 Italian_Abruzzo 5.1
5 Ashkenazi 6.28
6 West_Sicilian 6.95
7 Italian_Jewish 8.33
8 Sephardic_Jewish 8.45
9 Greek 8.95
10 Greek_Thessaly 10.02
11 Algerian_Jewish 10.19
12 Tuscan 11.48
13 Tunisian_Jewish 12.28
14 Cyprian 14.45
15 Libyan_Jewish 14.68
16 Bulgarian 15.99
17 Lebanese_Muslim 16.87
18 Turkish 17.13
19 Syrian 17.97
20 North_Italian 17.99

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 79.7% Italian_Abruzzo + 20.3% Lebanese_Muslim @ 2.82
2 83.3% Italian_Abruzzo + 16.7% Samaritan @ 2.94
3 84.1% Italian_Abruzzo + 15.9% Lebanese_Christian @ 2.96
4 83.3% Italian_Abruzzo + 16.7% Jordanian @ 2.96
5 77.4% Italian_Abruzzo + 22.6% Cyprian @ 2.97
6 84.7% Italian_Abruzzo + 15.3% Lebanese_Druze @ 3.02
7 81.2% Italian_Abruzzo + 18.8% Syrian @ 3.03
8 84.2% Italian_Abruzzo + 15.8% Palestinian @ 3.04
9 83.8% Central_Greek + 16.2% Tunisian_Jewish @ 3.14
10 85.3% Italian_Abruzzo + 14.7% Iranian_Jewish @ 3.15
11 60% Tuscan + 40% Lebanese_Muslim @ 3.18
12 92.8% East_Sicilian + 7.2% Assyrian @ 3.18
13 93.3% East_Sicilian + 6.7% Georgian_Jewish @ 3.19
14 94% South_Italian + 6% La_Brana-1 @ 3.19
15 93.6% South_Italian + 6.4% Ukrainian_Belgorod @ 3.19
16 93.6% East_Sicilian + 6.4% Kurdish @ 3.19
17 93.7% South_Italian + 6.3% Russian_Smolensk @ 3.21
18 94% South_Italian + 6% Belorussian @ 3.21
19 93.8% South_Italian + 6.2% Southwest_Russian @ 3.21
20 91.1% East_Sicilian + 8.9% Turkish @ 3.21

Dimanto
08-24-2019, 12:49 AM
They are similar to Apulians, pretty much.




For comparison to a "typical" Sicilian here is someone from the Palermo region. They are closer than other mainland Greeks would be to Sicilians, but not as much as Aegean islands are.

What would this be according to your estimation? Which kind of Southern Italian, Sicilian or Aegean Islander would this be? (just testing your skills).

# Population Percent
1 East_Med 27.35
2 Atlantic 22.76
3 West_Med 17.98
4 West_Asian 13.8
5 Red_Sea 7.04
6 North_Sea 6.71
7 Baltic 4.36
8 Northeast_African 0.01

# Population (source) Distance
1 West_Sicilian 6.52
2 Italian_Abruzzo 7.78
3 South_Italian 8.41
4 East_Sicilian 9.13
5 Central_Greek 9.85
6 Sephardic_Jewish 10.23
7 Tuscan 10.26
8 Italian_Jewish 11
9 Algerian_Jewish 11.77
10 Greek 12.11
11 Ashkenazi 12.34
12 Tunisian_Jewish 14.55
13 Greek_Thessaly 14.81
14 North_Italian 15.73
15 Cyprian 18.57
16 Libyan_Jewish 18.67
17 Bulgarian 19.03
18 Spanish_Andalucia 20.45
19 Romanian 21.09
20 Spanish_Extremadura 21.39

J Man
08-24-2019, 02:07 AM
They are similar to Apulians, pretty much.




For comparison to a "typical" Sicilian here is someone from the Palermo region. They are closer than other mainland Greeks would be to Sicilians, but not as much as Aegean islands are.

Do the Maniot samples that you have access to come from individuals that have tested at 23andme?

Sikeliot
08-24-2019, 11:44 AM
What would this be according to your estimation? Which kind of Southern Italian, Sicilian or Aegean Islander would this be? (just testing your skills).

# Population Percent
1 East_Med 27.35
2 Atlantic 22.76
3 West_Med 17.98
4 West_Asian 13.8
5 Red_Sea 7.04
6 North_Sea 6.71
7 Baltic 4.36
8 Northeast_African 0.01

# Population (source) Distance
1 West_Sicilian 6.52
2 Italian_Abruzzo 7.78
3 South_Italian 8.41
4 East_Sicilian 9.13
5 Central_Greek 9.85
6 Sephardic_Jewish 10.23
7 Tuscan 10.26
8 Italian_Jewish 11
9 Algerian_Jewish 11.77
10 Greek 12.11
11 Ashkenazi 12.34
12 Tunisian_Jewish 14.55
13 Greek_Thessaly 14.81
14 North_Italian 15.73
15 Cyprian 18.57
16 Libyan_Jewish 18.67
17 Bulgarian 19.03
18 Spanish_Andalucia 20.45
19 Romanian 21.09
20 Spanish_Extremadura 21.39

IMO Trapani, SE Sicily, or inner Campania. I might also have said Apulia but the Baltic/East Euro are lower than I'd expect for them. This result is different from Calabria and Palermitans/Messinese because of having lower East Med, West Asian than them and higher Atlantic on average.

When I see Atlantic percentages that high I tend to guess either Trapani, Syracuse/Ragusa, or somewhere in Campania/Abruzzo area.


Do the Maniot samples that you have access to come from individuals that have tested at 23andme?

Unfortunately no. :(

Sikeliot
08-24-2019, 11:59 AM
What would this be according to your estimation? Which kind of Southern Italian, Sicilian or Aegean Islander would this be? (just testing your skills).


My turn. Try this one? I gave both Eurogenes K13 and K15. Also Maltese is an option.


# Population Percent
1 East_Med 31.19
2 West_Med 23.05
3 North_Atlantic 15.88
4 West_Asian 12.4
5 Baltic 6.81
6 Red_Sea 6.4
7 Sub-Saharan 1.12
8 Northeast_African 1.04
9 East_Asian 0.89
10 South_Asian 0.63
11 Oceanian 0.59

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 South_Italian 3.19
2 East_Sicilian 3.27
3 Central_Greek 5.23
4 West_Sicilian 5.44
5 Ashkenazi 6.35
6 Algerian_Jewish 7
7 Italian_Jewish 7.65
8 Sephardic_Jewish 7.69
9 Italian_Abruzzo 7.7
10 Greek_Thessaly 10.88
11 Tunisian_Jewish 11.48
12 Libyan_Jewish 12.02
13 Tuscan 12.36
14 Cyprian 14.89
15 Lebanese_Muslim 18.62
16 North_Italian 18.7
17 Syrian 19.41
18 Bulgarian 19.77
19 Tunisian 20.67
20 Turkish 21.11

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 71.6% East_Sicilian + 28.4% Algerian_Jewish @ 1.88
2 74.4% West_Sicilian + 25.6% Cyprian @ 1.99
3 58.2% Central_Greek + 41.8% Algerian_Jewish @ 2.04
4 90.4% South_Italian + 9.6% Moroccan @ 2.05
5 89.9% South_Italian + 10.1% Algerian @ 2.1
6 89.6% South_Italian + 10.4% Tunisian @ 2.11
7 90.6% South_Italian + 9.4% Mozabite_Berber @ 2.12
8 80.9% West_Sicilian + 19.1% Samaritan @ 2.22
9 52.7% Algerian_Jewish + 47.3% Italian_Abruzzo @ 2.26
10 75.8% East_Sicilian + 24.2% Italian_Jewish @ 2.3
11 65.3% Cyprian + 34.7% Spanish_Galicia @ 2.34
12 82.1% West_Sicilian + 17.9% Lebanese_Christian @ 2.36
13 57.5% West_Sicilian + 42.5% Algerian_Jewish @ 2.53
14 64.3% Cyprian + 35.7% Portuguese @ 2.55
15 51.6% South_Italian + 48.4% East_Sicilian @ 2.56
16 78.1% East_Sicilian + 21.9% Sephardic_Jewish @ 2.56
17 68% Cyprian + 32% Spanish_Cantabria @ 2.66
18 69.2% Cyprian + 30.8% Southwest_French @ 2.67
19 94.1% East_Sicilian + 5.9% Sardinian @ 2.67
20 62% Algerian_Jewish + 38% Greek_Thessaly @ 2.67



# Population Percent
1 East_Med 30.25
2 West_Med 19.71
3 West_Asian 11.94
4 North_Sea 10.95
5 Atlantic 9.93
6 Red_Sea 6.31
7 Baltic 4.8
8 Eastern_Euro 2.52
9 Sub-Saharan 1.06
10 Northeast_African 1.03
11 Oceanian 0.53
12 Southeast_Asian 0.48
13 South_Asian 0.47

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 East_Sicilian 5.44
2 South_Italian 5.61
3 Italian_Jewish 6.04
4 Central_Greek 6.33
5 Ashkenazi 6.63
6 Algerian_Jewish 7.51
7 West_Sicilian 8.18
8 Sephardic_Jewish 8.58
9 Italian_Abruzzo 8.93
10 Greek_Thessaly 10.31
11 Libyan_Jewish 11.32
12 Greek 11.35
13 Tunisian_Jewish 11.86
14 Tuscan 12.52
15 Cyprian 13.94
16 Lebanese_Muslim 17.85
17 Syrian 18.18
18 North_Italian 18.69
19 Bulgarian 18.72
20 Samaritan 19.63

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 65.7% Italian_Jewish + 34.3% Greek_Thessaly @ 3.19
2 59.3% Algerian_Jewish + 40.7% Greek_Thessaly @ 3.42
3 67.9% Central_Greek + 32.1% Libyan_Jewish @ 3.82
4 52.7% Greek_Thessaly + 47.3% Libyan_Jewish @ 3.88
5 65.7% Cyprian + 34.3% Spanish_Galicia @ 4.03
6 52.2% Italian_Jewish + 47.8% Central_Greek @ 4.16
7 86.8% Italian_Jewish + 13.2% Moldavian @ 4.17
8 75.3% East_Sicilian + 24.7% Libyan_Jewish @ 4.2
9 56.9% Central_Greek + 43.1% Algerian_Jewish @ 4.23
10 55.9% East_Sicilian + 44.1% Italian_Jewish @ 4.27
11 89.9% Italian_Jewish + 10.1% Ukrainian @ 4.32
12 89.6% Italian_Jewish + 10.4% Ukrainian_Lviv @ 4.33
13 65.3% East_Sicilian + 34.7% Algerian_Jewish @ 4.36
14 82.9% Italian_Jewish + 17.1% Romanian @ 4.37
15 88% Italian_Jewish + 12% Hungarian @ 4.4
16 81.5% Italian_Jewish + 18.5% Bulgarian @ 4.41
17 54.7% Italian_Jewish + 45.3% Ashkenazi @ 4.47
18 85% Italian_Jewish + 15% Serbian @ 4.47
19 88.4% Italian_Jewish + 11.6% Croatian @ 4.48
20 72.1% Italian_Jewish + 27.9% Greek @ 4.48

Dimanto
08-24-2019, 06:12 PM
My turn. Try this one? I gave both Eurogenes K13 and K15. Also Maltese is an option.

I think Calabrian, Sicilian speaking part.

What about this one? (k13):

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 East_Med 30.56
2 West_Med 24.19
3 North_Atlantic 18.38
4 West_Asian 12.11
5 Red_Sea 7.34
6 Baltic 6.57
7 East_Asian 0.66
8 Oceanian 0.17
9 Amerindian 0.03

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 South_Italian 4.19
2 West_Sicilian 4.45
3 East_Sicilian 4.62
4 Central_Greek 5.82
5 Italian_Abruzzo 6.76
6 Ashkenazi 8.01
7 Sephardic_Jewish 8.61
8 Italian_Jewish 8.7
9 Algerian_Jewish 8.84
10 Tuscan 10.52
11 Greek_Thessaly 10.87
12 Tunisian_Jewish 13.01
13 Libyan_Jewish 13.65
14 Cyprian 16.75
15 North_Italian 16.86
16 Bulgarian 19.66
17 Lebanese_Muslim 20.57
18 Syrian 21.36
19 Romanian 21.45
20 Tunisian 22.1

vettor
08-24-2019, 07:03 PM
But do you think they are a good representation of what the population inside the city walls was like in the 15th Century?
Iím a bit rusty on my late Byzantine history but toward the fall of Constantinople lots of Byzantines emigrated all across Italy,if I remember correctly they kicked started the renaissance in Italy. (Venice,Rome,Calabria)
Iím not sure what Admixture groups moved in to Constantinople after the fall,Turks,Slavs,Balkan groups??
Modern Constantinople population might plot/or be different to late Byzantine era?

Also, the Merchant Republics of Genoa, Venice and Pisa had warehouses and merchants living between Alexandria and Aleppo for many many centuries prior to and after the crusader period.................hundreds of years of dropping seeds in an area will make a mark

Sikeliot
08-24-2019, 08:30 PM
I think Calabrian, Sicilian speaking part.

What about this one? (k13):

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 East_Med 30.56
2 West_Med 24.19
3 North_Atlantic 18.38
4 West_Asian 12.11
5 Red_Sea 7.34
6 Baltic 6.57
7 East_Asian 0.66
8 Oceanian 0.17
9 Amerindian 0.03

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 South_Italian 4.19
2 West_Sicilian 4.45
3 East_Sicilian 4.62
4 Central_Greek 5.82
5 Italian_Abruzzo 6.76
6 Ashkenazi 8.01
7 Sephardic_Jewish 8.61
8 Italian_Jewish 8.7
9 Algerian_Jewish 8.84
10 Tuscan 10.52
11 Greek_Thessaly 10.87
12 Tunisian_Jewish 13.01
13 Libyan_Jewish 13.65
14 Cyprian 16.75
15 North_Italian 16.86
16 Bulgarian 19.66
17 Lebanese_Muslim 20.57
18 Syrian 21.36
19 Romanian 21.45
20 Tunisian 22.1



Trapani.

Dimanto
08-24-2019, 09:59 PM
Trapani.

How did I do? My guess was Calabria.

Sikeliot
08-25-2019, 11:44 AM
How did I do? My guess was Calabria.

Palermo. I notice the western part of Palermo province -- towns like Cinisi, Partinico, Balestrate -- a lot of the results come up modeled as 90% South Italian, 10% Moroccan/Tunisian/Algerian, while the eastern part of Palermo province is closer to Messina, Calabria, or Crete/Dodecanese with higher Caucasus.

What were the ones you posted?

Greekscholar
08-25-2019, 02:09 PM
Also, the Merchant Republics of Genoa, Venice and Pisa had warehouses and merchants living between Alexandria and Aleppo for many many centuries prior to and after the crusader period.................hundreds of years of dropping seeds in an area will make a mark

This is a historic reality and an interesting genetic question. What I can tell you is that I have several late 19th/early 20th century ancestors with Italian first names, and Greek last names. They also found a Crusader era marble casket on Fourni. The inscription was for a Venetian prince. I have some information on it I can share, although I will have to find it first.

Can this be teased out genetically, at this point? Or do we see evidence of continued Greek/Italian gene exchange in the range of variation we find in each general region?

Dimanto
08-25-2019, 08:51 PM
Palermo. I notice the western part of Palermo province -- towns like Cinisi, Partinico, Balestrate -- a lot of the results come up modeled as 90% South Italian, 10% Moroccan/Tunisian/Algerian, while the eastern part of Palermo province is closer to Messina, Calabria, or Crete/Dodecanese with higher Caucasus.

What were the ones you posted?

It'd be my second guess, though it was my first thought. Not sure why I eventually chose for Calabria but it could be due to low North African scores. It was my uncle's k13 I shared and I wanted to see what you'd say without any bias.

Here's his G25

https://imgur.com/a/0AGSZAk

Sikeliot
08-25-2019, 09:13 PM
It'd be my second guess, though it was my first thought. Not sure why I eventually chose for Calabria but it could be due to low North African scores. It was my uncle's k13 I shared and I wanted to see what you'd say without any bias.

Here's his G25

https://imgur.com/a/0AGSZAk

Try this one:


# Population Percent
1 East_Med 25.79
2 West_Med 22.03
3 Atlantic 14.71
4 West_Asian 14.2
5 North_Sea 10.6
6 Red_Sea 5.37
7 Eastern_Euro 3.99
8 Baltic 2.71
9 Southeast_Asian 0.32
10 Northeast_African 0.27

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 East_Sicilian 6.15
2 Central_Greek 6.28
3 West_Sicilian 6.4
4 Italian_Abruzzo 6.42
5 South_Italian 6.49
6 Tuscan 8.81
7 Ashkenazi 8.96
8 Italian_Jewish 9.49
9 Greek 10.13
10 Greek_Thessaly 10.43
11 Sephardic_Jewish 10.94
12 Algerian_Jewish 10.99
13 North_Italian 14.71
14 Tunisian_Jewish 15.39
15 Libyan_Jewish 16.46
16 Bulgarian 17.4
17 Cyprian 17.46
18 Romanian 19.24
19 Turkish 21.24
20 Spanish_Extremadura 21.41

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 85% Central_Greek + 15% Sardinian @ 3.86
2 86.1% East_Sicilian + 13.9% Sardinian @ 4.16
3 54.6% North_Italian + 45.4% Cyprian @ 4.17
4 85.2% Italian_Abruzzo + 14.8% Sardinian @ 4.21
5 60.1% Cyprian + 39.9% Spanish_Cantabria @ 4.32
6 69% Tuscan + 31% Cyprian @ 4.48
7 55.9% Cyprian + 44.1% Portuguese @ 4.56
8 56.7% Cyprian + 43.3% Spanish_Galicia @ 4.58
9 55.4% Cyprian + 44.6% Spanish_Extremadura @ 4.76
10 76.1% South_Italian + 23.9% North_Italian @ 4.79
11 85.4% South_Italian + 14.6% Spanish_Cantabria @ 4.81
12 62.9% South_Italian + 37.1% Tuscan @ 4.81
13 83.5% South_Italian + 16.5% Spanish_Galicia @ 4.82
14 86.6% South_Italian + 13.4% Sardinian @ 4.83
15 82.9% South_Italian + 17.1% Spanish_Extremadura @ 4.85
16 83.2% South_Italian + 16.8% Portuguese @ 4.85
17 57.8% Cyprian + 42.2% Spanish_Cataluna @ 4.94
18 84.8% South_Italian + 15.2% Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha @ 4.97
19 83.6% South_Italian + 16.4% Spanish_Andalucia @ 5.02
20 86.7% South_Italian + 13.3% Southwest_French @ 5.05