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Dieu
08-18-2019, 09:47 PM
I create this thread to talk about the journey of the R1b P312 ancestors and how they came to be, starting from P.


Siberia :

=> P to R [ANE/ANS cluster: 70% Sungir; 30% Tianyuan]

Eastern Europe :

==> R1 to R1b P297 [EHG : 50% ANE; 50% WHG); (Many WHG R1b found but they are not ancestors of M269)
===> R1b M269 to L51 [Steppes: 50% EHG; 50% CHG]

Central Europe and maybe Northwestern Europe :

====> Maybe R1b L151 and at least P312 [Corded ware cluster : 75% Steppes; 25% Neolithic farmer]. (It starts to get tricky there because there many variation in mixtures, I'm talking only about the first R1b P312 to be born)




I don't remember how was the first R1b P312 guy exactly, so maybe i'm wrong about him. And I'm not absolutely sure about all my percentage but I think they are pretty close.

Wing Genealogist
08-18-2019, 10:33 PM
[SNIP] 5% of the P312 guy nuclear dna is descended from the Ust-ishim cluster if we follow what I wrote lol, that is what stayed of the direct ancestor.

According to wikipedia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_K-M9 Haplogroup K dates back to 47,000-50,000 years ago. Also, According to https://haplogroup.org/ystory/r-p312/ the age of R-P312 is about 4,800 years ago.

Over 40,000 years came between the origin of K-M9 and the origin of R-P312. There possibility "Mr. P312" (the first person to have the P312 mutation) inheriting ANY non Y-DNA from Ust-Ishim (M-K9) is infinitesimally small.

Kale
08-18-2019, 10:36 PM
That and the phylogenic position of Ust_Ishim is at this point still up for debate. Very early East Eurasian? Very early West Eurasian? It's own dead-end branch?
Tianyuan being K2b is also pretty relevant to this story.

Dieu
08-18-2019, 10:37 PM
According to wikipedia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_K-M9 Haplogroup K dates back to 47,000-50,000 years ago. Also, According to https://haplogroup.org/ystory/r-p312/ the age of R-P312 is about 4,800 years ago.

Over 40,000 years came between the origin of K-M9 and the origin of R-P312. There possibility "Mr. P312" (the first person to have the P312 mutation) inheriting ANY non Y-DNA from Ust-Ishim (M-K9) is infinitesimally small.

That's true however all the cluster that formed the P312 guy if we exclude Ust-ishim cluster ofc didn't contain many K haplogroup : ( No K haplogroup in Sunghir, WHG, CHG, Neholithic farmer), the only K haplgroup found in WHG is R1b itself. And my point was aiming to the direct ancestor, not the others.

Dieu
08-18-2019, 10:38 PM
That and the phylogenic position of Ust_Ishim is at this point still up for debate. Very early East Eurasian? Very early West Eurasian? It's own dead-end branch?
Tianyuan being K2b is also pretty relevant to this story.

Dead branch for sure but very close to the other K bearer at that point in time. And the split between east and west wasn't that deep.

Kale
08-18-2019, 10:38 PM
No K haplogroup in Sunghir, WHG, CHG, Neholithic farmer), the only K haplgroup found in WHG are R1b itself.

But there is K is Oase1. The same branch as Ust_Ishim :P

Dieu
08-18-2019, 10:42 PM
But there is K is Oase1. The same branch as Ust_Ishim :P

He is a dead-end but yes same branch as Ust_Ishim.

ybmpark
08-18-2019, 11:41 PM
He is a dead-end but yes same branch as Ust_Ishim.

Tianyuan's being K2b is similar to or only marginally more certain than Ust Ishim's being K2a. Tianyuan has more K2b defining SNPs as opposed to 2 for Ust Ishim. But the latter has a higher quality.
Oase's being K2a would have remained just an interesting possibility without Ust Ishim. But together they make moderately strong cases for early divergent K2a.

etrusco
08-19-2019, 08:12 AM
I create this thread to talk about the journey of the R1b P312 ancestors and how they came to be, starting from K (since we don't know much before K).


Siberia :

K [Ust-Ishim cluster]
=> P to R [ANE cluster: 75% Sungir; 25% Ust-Ishim]

Eastern Europe :

==> R1 to R1b P297 [EHG : 50% ANE; 50% WHG); (Many WHG R1b found but they are not ancestors of M269)
===> R1b M269 to L51 [Steppes: 50% EHG; 50% CHG]

Central Europe and maybe Northwestern Europe :

====> Maybe R1b L151 and at least P312 [Corded ware cluster : 75% Steppes; 25% Neolithic farmer]. (It starts to get tricky there because there many variation in mixtures, I'm talking only about the first R1b P312 to be born)




I don't remember how was the first R1b P312 guy exactly, so maybe i'm wrong about him. And I'm not absolutely sure about all my percentage but I think they are pretty close.

5% of the P312 guy nuclear dna is descended from the Ust-ishim cluster if we follow what I wrote, that is what stayed of the direct ancestor.

Interesting stuffs...in particular I'm interested in the EHG WHG ANE proportions. I've heard already that EHG= ANE+WHG but did not know that WHG was that high (50%). Can you provide a source for this ?

Dieu
08-19-2019, 12:52 PM
Interesting stuffs...in particular I'm interested in the EHG WHG ANE proportions. I've heard already that EHG= ANE+WHG but did not know that WHG was that high (50%). Can you provide a source for this ?

I don't remembe where I saw it, but some say that WHG had already some ANE admix (which is plausible since there many R1b WHG). So WHG could be something + little ANE and EHG= that something + a lot of ANE.

rms2
08-19-2019, 01:10 PM
How do you define many? There has only been a small handful of R1b HGs, at least one an EHG, and the others on dead end L754 lines, pre-M73, or R1b-V88.

Then there is the big gap in Europe west of the Dniester during the Neolithic, when R1b, except for a couple of V88s in Iberia, is missing.

Dieu
08-19-2019, 05:34 PM
How do you define many? There has only been a small handful of R1b HGs, at least one an EHG, and the others on dead end L754 lines, pre-M73, or R1b-V88.

Then there is the big gap in Europe west of the Dniester during the Neolithic, when R1b, except for a couple of V88s in Iberia, is missing.

All the R1b v88 in mesolithic Ukraine and Villabruna, There is more R1b WHG sample than EHG during this time period but like I said they didn't contribute to present R1b

rms2
08-19-2019, 06:58 PM
The line leading to V88 parted company with the vast majority of European R1b at L389 (V88 is ancestral for L389), and that was over 16000 years ago.

V88 seems to have been the first to have ventured west, some of it eventually making it all the way into Africa.

Its story is different from that of R1b-M269.

Dieu
08-19-2019, 09:29 PM
I made a mistake about ANE/ANS lineage, I read the paper "The population history of northeastern Siberia since the Pleistocene" again and they just say that ANE is a mix between 70% west eurasian and 30% east eurasian. But they don't really tell very precisely.

http://secher.bernard.free.fr/blog/public/2018_Sikora_Figure3a.jpg