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rms2
08-21-2019, 03:20 AM
This is very close to something I posted elsewhere, but I have info to add, and much to explain and ask about, so I'm not cross posting.

I wish I knew my maternal grandfather's y-dna haplogroup so I could list it, but I don't. He passed away when I was a baby, and I waited too late to get my mother's only brother tested before he passed away.

I know of some other male relatives on that y-dna line, but thus far they refuse to test. And I've offered to pay for it.

This has been a source of frustration to me for years. I kick myself for not getting my maternal uncle tested when I had the chance.

My mother's maiden surname was Gist, not a very common name, but, wouldn't you know it, not all the male Gists share the same y-dna haplogroup, let alone match. A few years ago I exchanged a few emails with the admin of FTDNA's Gist Project, who is himself also not a Gist on his y-dna line. He is pretty familiar with Gist genealogy (there's a major work on it still in print - I own a copy), but together we could not figure out if any of the men currently in that project is related to me. None of them has an obvious connection to me via a common Gist ancestor, and several different lines claim descent from the relatively famous immigrant, Christopher Gist.

Okay, onward. Anyway, recently I got an Ancestry match of 14 cMs across 2 segments to a woman with the surname Gist. Her most distant ancestors on that line are Benjamin Gist (b. 1730) and his wife Mary Jarrett (b. 1732). Well, it just so happens that there are two kits in Group 02 at the Gist DNA Project (https://www.familytreedna.com/public/GistGestGuessGuest?iframe=yresults) who list those same ancestors: 37102 and 44600. Notice that the only two SNP tested folks in that group are both R1b-DF83, which is downstream of DF27 as follows: DF27>ZZ12>Z2559>FGC49020>DF83.

It's pretty obvious that everyone in Group 02 is R1b-DF83.

Sounds like a slam dunk, right? Yeah, but there's a slight problem. My female Gist Ancestry match shares a pair of non-Gist ancestors with me, so it's possible we're not related on the Gist line at all. However, here's why I think that's unlikely and that we are in fact also related on the Gist line. First off, we share four other Gist matches who are definitely on my mom's Gist line (I share Gist ancestors in common with all four of them), and none of them shares the pair of non-Gists I mentioned above. That to me is pretty strong evidence. Second, Gist is not a common surname, and, third, my Ancestry match's family is from Florence, Lauderdale County, Alabama, which is precisely where my maternal grandfather was born.

So, it's a circumstantial case, but I think a pretty good one.

If anyone has persisted to the end, read all that, and is still awake, what do you think?

Kulin
08-21-2019, 03:25 AM
Having understood the *Gist of your situation, I think you have a pretty strong case here. It is quite likely IMO that you're related through that line.


*sorry I just had to

JonikW
08-21-2019, 10:17 AM
This is very close to something I posted elsewhere, but I have info to add, and much to explain and ask about, so I'm not cross posting.

I wish I knew my maternal grandfather's y-dna haplogroup so I could list it, but I don't. He passed away when I was a baby, and I waited too late to get my mother's only brother tested before he passed away.

I know of some other male relatives on that y-dna line, but thus far they refuse to test. And I've offered to pay for it.

This has been a source of frustration to me for years. I kick myself for not getting my maternal uncle tested when I had the chance.

My mother's maiden surname was Gist, not a very common name, but, wouldn't you know it, not all the male Gists share the same y-dna haplogroup, let alone match. A few years ago I exchanged a few emails with the admin of FTDNA's Gist Project, who is himself also not a Gist on his y-dna line. He is pretty familiar with Gist genealogy (there's a major work on it still in print - I own a copy), but together we could not figure out if any of the men currently in that project is related to me. None of them has an obvious connection to me via a common Gist ancestor, and several different lines claim descent from the relatively famous immigrant, Christopher Gist.

Okay, onward. Anyway, recently I got an Ancestry match of 14 cMs across 2 segments to a woman with the surname Gist. Her most distant ancestors on that line are Benjamin Gist (b. 1730) and his wife Mary Jarrett (b. 1732). Well, it just so happens that there are two kits in Group 02 at the Gist DNA Project (https://www.familytreedna.com/public/GistGestGuessGuest?iframe=yresults) who list those same ancestors: 37102 and 44600. Notice that the only two SNP tested folks in that group are both R1b-DF83, which is downstream of DF27 as follows: DF27>ZZ12>Z2559>FGC49020>DF83.

It's pretty obvious that everyone in Group 02 is R1b-DF83.

Sounds like a slam dunk, right? Yeah, but there's a slight problem. My female Gist Ancestry match shares a pair of non-Gist ancestors with me, so it's possible we're not related on the Gist line at all. However, here's why I think that's unlikely and that we are in fact also related on the Gist line. First off, we share four other Gist matches who are definitely on my mom's Gist line (I share Gist ancestors in common with all four of them), and none of them shares the pair of non-Gists I mentioned above. That to me is pretty strong evidence. Second, Gist is not a common surname, and, third, my Ancestry match's family is from Florence, Lauderdale County, Alabama, which is precisely where my maternal grandfather was born.

So, it's a circumstantial case, but I think a pretty good one.

If anyone has persisted to the end, read all that, and is still awake, what do you think?

It looks like the most likely possibility, as you say, and it's unfortunate you can't tell whether you really have nailed it. Is there any chance of seeing if your Gist paper trees can tie in or is that a task too far?

rms2
08-21-2019, 12:48 PM
It looks like the most likely possibility, as you say, and it's unfortunate you can't tell whether you really have nailed it. Is there any chance of seeing if your Gist paper trees can tie in or is that a task too far?

Currently she can only get back to Benjamin Gist (b. 1730) and his wife Mary Jarrett (b. 1732). Benjamin is found on page 180 of the book, Christopher Gist of Maryland and Some of His Descendants, by Jean Muir Dorsey and Maxwell Jay Dorsey. The note at the bottom of that page reads as follows:


The parentage of Benjamin Gist is not known. His name appears first in the records of Lunenburg County, in southern Virginia. This is not far from where Nathaniel Gist of Baltimore, Maryland, [my ancestor] settled, and where his land was surveyed in 1752. There is a possibility that Benjamin Gist was related to the Maryland family, but no records have been found to prove this. The fact that his name was spelled Gist, and that he lived in the frontier countries [sic] of Virginia, North Carolina, South Carolina, and Tennessee, with the descendants of Christopher Gist of Maryland, leads one to associate the names of Benjamin and his descendants with this family. These are the reasons for including Benjamin Gist and his descendants in this book. J.M.D.


As the note above says, Benjamin Gist settled near where my own ancestor Nathaniel Gist (b. 1707, son of Richard, son of the immigrant Christopher) settled. I think it likely that Benjamin was a son of my ancestor Nathaniel, but thus far there is no proof of that.

It's also interesting that my mom's Gist family went to Lawrence County, Tennessee, and then to Lauderdale County, Alabama (just south of Lawrence County). Benjamin's descendants did exactly the same.

BTW, my ancestor Nathaniel and his brother Christopher were relatively famous frontier scouts and personal friends of George Washington.

Webb
08-21-2019, 01:47 PM
Its interesting that the two groups have slightly different variations of the same surname, Gist and Guest, but are both DF83 and have matching STR's for the most part. I see one Guest from Prince William County, Virginia. DF83 on Alex's tree seems to be predominately British with a large Barnum cluster and a large Cooley cluster. It is too bad the two who are confirmed DF83 haven't tested further downstream.

rms2
08-21-2019, 01:57 PM
Its interesting that the two groups have slightly different variations of the same surname, Gist and Guest, but are both DF83 and have matching STR's for the most part. I see one Guest from Prince William County, Virginia. DF83 on Alex's tree seems to be predominately British with a large Barnum cluster and a large Cooley cluster. It is too bad the two who are confirmed DF83 haven't tested further downstream.

Our immigrant ancestor Christopher Gist (also spelled Guest in various records) was born in Malmesbury, Wiltshire, in about 1650, but the surname is most frequent in Devon.

32592

Chad Rohlfsen
08-21-2019, 02:05 PM
I'm a Gist descendant too. I'll check my tree and see if my great-grandma has male relatives around.

JonikW
08-21-2019, 02:22 PM
Our immigrant ancestor Christopher Gist (also spelled Guest in various records) was born in Malmesbury, Wiltshire, in about 1650, but the surname is most frequent in Devon.

32592

I was born and brought up in Bristol so have come across a lot of West Country surnames ranging from Wiltshire down to Cornwall, but I've not seen Gist before. I'm not surprised because I've got West Country names in my own tree that I've never seen outside their very specific regions. Wiltshire drew in quite a few families on my tree whose surnames are typically from Devon and further west, so that might well be the case with your Gists too. I guess it was long a relatively attractive and productive region for agricultural work, at least according to Cobbett in "Rural Rides".

rms2
08-21-2019, 02:38 PM
I'm nearly completely convinced that my Ancestry Gist match and I are related on that line and that my maternal grandfather was R1b-DF83. Summing up, here are the reasons I believe that:

1. As I said, this Ancestry match and I share four matches in common who share descent with me from my third great grandfather, Joseph Gist (b. 1789), and none of them is descended from the pair of non-Gist ancestors I mentioned before.

2. The family of my Ancestry match lived in the same town in which my maternal grandfather was born: Florence, Lauderdale Co., Alabama.

3. Benjamin Gist, the most distant known Gist ancestor of my Ancestry match, settled near the place where my own ancestor Nathaniel Gist settled; his descendants subsequently moved to the same places my own Gist ancestors did in Lawrence Co., Tennessee, and Lauderdale Co., Alabama.

This might be as close to proof as I get, but I am still hoping a male Gist on my maternal grandfather's Gist line will turn up who is willing to have his y-dna tested.

rms2
08-21-2019, 02:39 PM
I'm a Gist descendant too. I'll check my tree and see if my great-grandma has male relatives around.

Thanks!

rms2
08-21-2019, 07:52 PM
So, I'm thinking about listing R1b-DF83 as my maternal grandfather's y-dna haplogroup in my profile. I'm about 99.9% convinced that's right. Good idea? Bad idea?

Webb
08-21-2019, 11:00 PM
So, I'm thinking about listing R1b-DF83 as my maternal grandfather's y-dna haplogroup in my profile. I'm about 99.9% convinced that's right. Good idea? Bad idea?

I don’t see why not as you can always change it if you come across something that leads you down a different trail. It is a interesting development as MikeWWW has a line that is DF27>CTS4065. His branch is closer to Razyn’s branch than mine on Alex’s tree.

rms2
08-22-2019, 11:06 AM
I don’t see why not as you can always change it if you come across something that leads you down a different trail. It is a interesting development as MikeWWW has a line that is DF27>CTS4065. His branch is closer to Razyn’s branch than mine on Alex’s tree.

Thanks. Since I am really convinced that's right, I will go with that, at least until, like you said, new and different information comes along.

JonikW
08-22-2019, 11:22 AM
Thanks. Since I am really convinced that's right, I will go with that, at least until, like you said, new and different information comes along.

I think you're right to go with it too. I'd forgotten that we had that profile option so thanks for the reminder. I'll do mine now. Nice to have the "full house."

rms2
08-22-2019, 11:45 AM
Looks great!

JonikW
08-22-2019, 11:57 AM
Looks great!

Cheers! It's also reminded me that I've barely looked into my Dad's mtDNA haplogroup. Always good to have something fresh to research.:)

Webb
08-22-2019, 02:35 PM
Thanks. Since I am really convinced that's right, I will go with that, at least until, like you said, new and different information comes along.

DF83 is pretty interesting. It was formed around 1980BCE, according to Ytree. BY3233, which includes the large Barnum group and one of the Cooley groups was formed around 43CE. There is a separate Cooley group which hasn't shared an ancestor with the other Cooley group since the 43CE split, which is A12033, and was formed around 307CE. If you run Cooley using the heat map of Britain, there is a bright red cluster around Torbay, which is very close to where Gist seems to have a heat signature.

rms2
08-22-2019, 04:18 PM
One of the problems with the y-dna of my maternal grandfather is that I'm not in charge of it and can't decide what kinds of tests to run on it. Wish someone in that line would do the Big Y-700, but that doesn't seem likely.

rms2
08-23-2019, 02:09 PM
Any good maps available of the distribution of DF27 in Britain? I have the vague impression that DF27 is fairly well represented in SW England. I believe it's also fairly big in SE England, but that's less interesting to me.

Webb
08-23-2019, 03:10 PM
32631

32632

32633

These are maps that Mitchell created a while back.

rms2
08-23-2019, 03:19 PM
32631

32632

32633

These are maps that Mitchell created a while back.

Ah, thanks.

Yeah, it looks like my maternal grandfather came by his likely y-dna haplogroup naturally.