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Nqp15hhu
08-23-2019, 10:10 AM
Just been confirmed to be FGC32004 down from L193.

Anyone know anything about this Haplogroup?

MacUalraig
08-23-2019, 01:43 PM
Just been confirmed to be FGC32004 down from L193.

Anyone know anything about this Haplogroup?

That would require an FGC32004 SNP, or a SNP downstream of it (or a sequencing test). If you have only tested STRs you aren't confirmed anything...

spruithean
08-23-2019, 01:54 PM
That would require an FGC32004 SNP, or a SNP downstream of it (or a sequencing test). If you have only tested STRs you aren't confirmed anything...

This.

But anyway, about that position on the tree: https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-FGC32004/

Nqp15hhu
08-23-2019, 02:29 PM
That would require an FGC32004 SNP, or a SNP downstream of it (or a sequencing test). If you have only tested STRs you aren't confirmed anything...

Iím waiting on the SNP pack. But that will be my SNP.

spruithean
08-23-2019, 08:15 PM
I’m waiting on the SNP pack. But that will be my SNP.

You can't be so sure, in some cases some people are ancestral for certain SNPs, surprisingly. But chances are considering your ancestry and the locations it's probably a derived value.

Nqp15hhu
08-28-2019, 12:41 AM
Just been confirmed, A7713. Not sure what that infers. But the BigTree says that this I am related to the two men that share it within the last 200-300 years.

Not sure about that as my ancestors where in NI in 1740.

I think it wouldíve been further back than that.

Also of note is that I share nothing with the Cumming men in the group. I didnít think so either as my surname has never been spelt that way. There must be a reason.

spruithean
08-28-2019, 01:22 AM
Just been confirmed, A7713. Not sure what that infers. But the BigTree says that this I am related to the two men that share it within the last 200-300 years.

Not sure about that as my ancestors where in NI in 1740.

I think it wouldíve been further back than that.

Also of note is that I share nothing with the Cumming men in the group. I didnít think so either as my surname has never been spelt that way. There must be a reason.

If I recall correctly your surname was at one point was an anglicized spelling of Mac Skimming. Perhaps this may explain why you don't share anything with the Cummings individuals?

SNP timeframe estimates are variable as more samples roll in and provide more data to make estimates with (the timing could decrease or increase).

Nqp15hhu
08-28-2019, 01:52 AM
That was a suggestion and something done in the 1700ís. However, iíve not matched any McSkimmings on any site and there is no FTDNA group for them.

I am not sure if that was just a Northern Ireland thing. BY651 is a Highland group as far as I know, but McSkimmings are western Borders i.e Stranraer.

I honestly donít know where I tie in. I may well be Ferguson?

spruithean
08-28-2019, 02:02 AM
That was a suggestion and something done in the 1700’s. However, i’ve not matched any McSkimmings on any site and there is no FTDNA group for them.

I am not sure if that was just a Northern Ireland thing. BY651 is a Highland group as far as I know, but McSkimmings are western Borders i.e Stranraer.

I honestly don’t know where I tie in. I may well be Ferguson?

I may be wrong, but Mac/McSkimming doesn't seem to be a very common surname and that could explain your lack of matches.

BY651 may be a "Highland" group, but people move around and Galloway was not exactly isolated from movement from around Britain and Ireland, Galloway's history prior to being incorporated in the Kingdom of Scotland was quite eventful.

Perhaps you may be related to Ferguson? I would think Big Y type testing eventually could help confirm such a connection?

Nqp15hhu
08-28-2019, 06:37 AM
I am 2 steps out from Ferguson. I donít know what the connection is to McSkimmings or what it infers.

I thought buying these tests would answer a few questions, but in actual fact Iíve now got more questions in regards to origin and history.

I still have no idea where they came from in Scotland and what the surname was. Whether or not weíre Clan Cumming either is also up in the air.

spruithean
08-28-2019, 11:57 AM
I am 2 steps out from Ferguson. I donít know what the connection is to McSkimmings or what it infers.

I thought buying these tests would answer a few questions, but in actual fact Iíve now got more questions in regards to origin and history.

I still have no idea where they came from in Scotland and what the surname was. Whether or not weíre Clan Cumming either is also up in the air.

A genetic distance of 2 with STRs is close, however it'd be probably more revealing to learn how many shared variants (SNPs) the two of you have and where exactly you fit on the tree. I had GDs of 2 with people of different surnames but in-depth testing showed that the connection is much further back in time and not relevant to a genealogical period. Your connection to MacSkimmings (if indeed Miskimmin is an anglicisation, which it appears to be), is simply a name.

I'm sorry that you had that impression about DNA testing. DNA testing can answer questions for some, but for others it takes work and investment. Genetic genealogy is more like a marathon than a sprint and it can take years for the right answers (and relatives) to come along.

You may never find out where in Scotland your family is from (welcome to the club) and you may never know if the surname is associated with Clan Cummings or not, and frankly I wouldn't put too much weight on the whole Clan thing. While the Clan system did exist it has been heavily romanticised and many people simply adopted the surname of a local chieftain for protection, food, or other reasons and they had no relation to the chief and his family.

Muireagain
08-29-2019, 04:13 PM
I read that McSkimming is from the Gaelic Mac Cuimin, i.e., son of Cuimin, hence its association with Cumming. Placing the haplogroup of the L513+ Cummings form Ytree onto a chart of L513 families, I have it as a Galloway family by association:

L193 – 1900 years ago / A3 – 1700 years ago
L513>S5668>A7>S5979>L193>A3>A8 Clan Kennedys from Ayrshire
L513>S5668>A7>S5979>L193>A3>A8 Clan Little from Ayrshire
L513>S5668>A7>S5979>L193>A3>FGC32082 Clan Vans from Wigtownshire
L513>S5668>A7>S5979>L193>A3>Z18059 Clan Glendinning from Dumfriesshire

L513>S5668>A7>S5979>L193>BY651>BY15236 McScumin (Mac Cuimin) of Ayrshire/Wigtownshire
L513>S5668>A7>S5979>L193>BY651>BY11221 Clan Elliots

L513>S5668>A7>S5979>L193>PF6141>Z17816>Z17813>FGC32127>A1069>Z17814 Clan MacLean
L513>S5668>A7>S5979>L193>PF6141>Z17816 MacDuff/MacKintosh of Perthshire?

L513>S5668>A7>S5979>L193>FGC30224>Z17817 Black/MacDuffee
L513>S5668>A7>S5979>L193>FGC30224>ZS4584>ZS4576>ZS4578 Sinkler of Glasgow?
L513>S5668>A7>S5979>L193>FGC30224>ZS4584>BY4017 Clan Drummonds

L513>S5668>A7>Z21253>S7828>Z21262 Clan MacKenzies
L513>S5668>A7>Z21253>S7828>BY11203>BY11186 MacIvor

L513>S5668>A7>Z17819>Z17820>FGC13503>FGC13508>FGC13495 a MacPherson family

L513>S5668>Z16340>FGC9807>FGC9795>FGC9804>FGC9809>FGC9800>Z16337>BY3093 the Maguires
L513>S5668>Z16340>FGC9807>FGC9795>FGC9804>FGC9809>FGC9800 C14 Sept MacCaffery/Guthrigh
L513>S5668>Z16340>FGC9807>FGC9795>Z20655>Y140575 Brynes of Monaghan

Z16372 - 1750 years ago
L513>S6365>Z16361>Z16372>Z18080 > Z18079>~20117088-C-A>ZS5208 Clan Nicholson
L513>S6365>Z16361>Z16372>BY404>BY402 O’Shea from Co. Clare
L513>S6365>Z16361>Z16372 O’Healy of Co. Cork?

L513>S6365>Z16361>CTS750>FGC13411>BY11289>Z17626>Z17624 Devine of Co. Dongeal?
L513>S6365>Z16361>CTS750>FGC13411>FGC32363>S8124 Anglin of Co. Cork (Corca Luighe)

L513>S6365>L705>Z16403>Z16407>BY553 Barrett of Co. Mayo?
L513>S6365>L705>Z16403>Z16407>Z17909>ZW05>ZW06>ZW01 Welsh of Co. Kilkenny?

L513>S6365>Z16385>Z16386>Z16387>Z17801 Kingston (Mac Oinseamain) of west Co. Cork
L513>S6365>Z16385>Z16386>Z16387 Monahan of Galway?

L513>S6365>CTS3087>CTS10651 Sinclairs (Mhic nan Cearda) of Islay


L513>Z23532>FGC32624>FGC32631 Ross

Nqp15hhu
08-29-2019, 04:39 PM
How are you establishing that this clan is from Wigtownshire/Ayrshire? The Cumming name is all over Scotland with the seat in Altyre.

Muireagain
08-29-2019, 08:57 PM
There is a fallacy common to Scottish history that if you share the same surname, then your families are related. yDNA result (such as from the Cumming yDNA project) show the falsehood of the idea. Numerous unrelated lines sharing the same surname. That a Scottish surname might have more one possible origin is to be expected, given how common patronymic surnames are in Scotland. Namely numerous people in Gaelic speaking communities could be named Cuimin, hence possibility for numerous Cumming families.
In you case the Anglicization of your surname had lead to a localization with Galloway. In 1684 there were numerous McScumin in the parish of Kirkinner in Wigtownshire. And a fugative Thomas MackSkimming of Auchneicht in the parish of Dally [Dailly] in Ayrshire.
Your yDNA reinforces the identification with Galloway. For you share BY651 with members of Clan Eliot. Who in the 15th century were to be found in Roxburghshire (bordering Dumfriesshire). Your last common ancestor was approximately 1250 years ago. One level up is SNP L193, which was about 1900 years ago. This includes A3 branch found in Galloway, PF6141 in Isle of Mull and FGC30224 from Drymen (at the time then written records existed.) The oldest branches of L513 point to an origin for L513 in the Isle of Skye area. Hence BY651 line has at some point traveled from the Isle of Skye to Roxburghshire. The other branches of L193 point to a path that travels through Galloway to Roxburgh. It is likely your branch of BY651 remained in Galloway and the Elliot branch left for Roxburghshire.

Nqp15hhu
08-29-2019, 09:48 PM
Thanks Muireagain. So, I know that all lines are not related, I had just assumed that iíd be related to ONE of the Clan Cumming branches.

What I cannot get my head around is my matches to two Cumming members from Roxburgh. If I am NOT related to Clan Cumming why am I matching up with two Cumming men? Analysis of my Haplogroup and theirs reveals a different Haplogroup.

Now, also I have received mixed responses in terms of places of origin. Some says Lowlands, others say Highlands in Perthshire.

You are saying Galloway.

If I look through my matches, the most common surnames are Elliott and McLean/McClain which are all over Scotland. I have some Borders (as in near England and Northern England) matches but a lot are in Dunbartonshire (I think about 10), Perthshire and Mull. This is what I have noticed.

I think I have one Wigtownshire match and that is it.

My two step match shares my Haplogroup and his line is from Perthshire.

I think what is going to happen is that I am going to discover that I am NOT part of the Scottish Cumming Line and coincidently ended up with a similar spelling from a different surname. This is what I have thought for a long time due to the spelling of my surname, which is the Irish version (a lot of lay people continually try to connect us up to the Southern Irish branch but we are absolutely not connected to them. I have very few ROI ancestors).

If you would like I will send through my CSV list of Matches so you can see the names and locations.

Ultimately, I would like to know where my ancestors came from before Northern Ireland. I always had suspicions that it was the Western Borders because I seen the McSkimmings name in Wigtownshire. The local landlord was also from Kirkcudbrightshire which would make sense.

I havenít noticed that name any further east than that. Such localised it is (and such a pity) - it would be interesting to know why it is only present there. I have not seen any McSkimmings men who have done a Y-DNA yet.

But you would think I would have more Galloway matches if my family where from there, would I not?

spruithean
08-29-2019, 10:25 PM
The reason you are matching those Cummings men despite the different haplogroups is because of convergence. Your haplotypes are similar enough to lead to a false positive.

You'd think you'd have more Galloway matches, but there are several factors that could be preventing that from lack of related people from that region testing, NPE, random surname adoption in the past, etc.

Dave-V
08-29-2019, 10:26 PM
There is a fallacy common to Scottish history that if you share the same surname, then your families are related. yDNA result (such as from the Cumming yDNA project) show the falsehood of the idea. Numerous unrelated lines sharing the same surname. That a Scottish surname might have more one possible origin is to be expected, given how common patronymic surnames are in Scotland. Namely numerous people in Gaelic speaking communities could be named Cuimin, hence possibility for numerous Cumming families.
In you case the Anglicization of your surname had lead to a localization with Galloway. In 1684 there were numerous McScumin in the parish of Kirkinner in Wigtownshire. And a fugative Thomas MackSkimming of Auchneicht in the parish of Dally [Dailly] in Ayrshire.
Your yDNA reinforces the identification with Galloway. For you share BY651 with members of Clan Eliot. Who in the 15th century were to be found in Roxburghshire (bordering Dumfriesshire). Your last common ancestor was approximately 1250 years ago. One level up is SNP L193, which was about 1900 years ago. This includes A3 branch found in Galloway, PF6141 in Isle of Mull and FGC30224 from Drymen (at the time then written records existed.) The oldest branches of L513 point to an origin for L513 in the Isle of Skye area. Hence BY651 line has at some point traveled from the Isle of Skye to Roxburghshire. The other branches of L193 point to a path that travels through Galloway to Roxburgh. It is likely your branch of BY651 remained in Galloway and the Elliot branch left for Roxburghshire.

With respect, let's make sure to qualify this all as conjecture. There is no actual evidence for any of it, nor does it really shed light on L513's origin beyond raising some interesting possibilities among many.

I don't mean to derail the thread but just to illustrate I'll throw out some concerns off the top of my head with treating it as solid reasoning:

1. You can't draw firm connections between surnames and branches just from the tested men to date, nor can you assume that those surnames had those Y-DNA lines back to the entire time they were documented.

2. You can't draw conclusions about where SNPs like L193 at 2000 years ago originated or migrated to based on associations of its branches to locations that are only documented back some 700 years at most. Our ancestors DID move around and most of the migration history is lost.

3. The "chart of L513 families" is superficial and misleading. Just as an example take "L153>S5668>A7>S5979>L193>A3>FGC32082 Clan Vans from Wigtownshire" - as I've posted already there is no "Clan Vans", it was one family of minor nobility who were not local but moved to Wigtonshire in 1384 and documented themselves as descendants of a Norman baronial family most recently from East Lothian, and (since the Norman origin would blow your conjecture out of the water) even if you presume that a Wigtownshire family adopted a background for their own purposes, they had known branches in Aberdeenshire and Inverness so Wigtownshire was just ONE of their many locations and there is no reason to assume that the A3>FGC32082 has any concentration (or certainly no origin) in Wigtownshire. I'm sure most of the surnames on this list have similarly a much more complex back-story than a simple correlation of names/locations to Y-DNA branches.

I'm sorry but location analysis is speculative and conjectural. It's fun to play "what if" but let's not attribute too much weight to it.

Nqp15hhu
08-29-2019, 10:38 PM
So how do I determine my ancestral origin with such poor records?

spruithean
08-29-2019, 11:53 PM
So how do I determine my ancestral origin with such poor records?

What exactly do you mean? DNA testing doesn't really work this way, however you can probably find a broad region at worst, but it will require some groundwork, like rounding up candidates for testing, in-depth testing, etc.

Muireagain
08-30-2019, 07:56 PM
It seems you are arguing for of documentary evidence in yDNA identification?

Well some men may be able to be traceable back to 17th century. However, the records from this period were not design for genealogical research. And can easy lead mistaken identifications, for becomes purely association game between the name of your male ancestor and a reference sharing the same name without any other justification, i.e., which John Smith?
The vast majority of male lines cannot be traced belong the 19th century for the simple lack of records. Only the titled nobility can hope to get back further than the 17th century with the use of their titles. Yet this titled world has cultural issue makes their yDNA suspect. A Channel 4 documentary highlight documentary evidence for infidelity in the royal line, and that the rightful heir to the Kingdom of England was a forklift driver in Australia.

Given the that a documentary evidence itself cannot be trusted:

Gaelic surnames have an advantage in that they reflect the segmentation of patrilineal segmented society (aka tribal society). Additionally, the nature of reproduction within tribal setting (i.e., polygamy) produces limited yDNA lines. The surnames based on tribal segmentation and the thinned-out SNP lines, make for tree graphs that can be compared. Namely correlation between related dynastic surname and branches of SNP allows for positive identification. As well as the identification of falsification in pedigrees. (This to occurs within Gaelic society.) This has leaded to the identification of Ui Neill and Dal Cais tribal ancestry.

Now Scotland is problematic due to the incredibly loss of native Scottish (Gaelic) records.

What survives in Scotland are late medieval records written in new language of English and are focused on the new feudal world of titles. However, as mentioned Gaelic society is a tribal society. This produce int eh highlands lots of males descended from a common recent male ancestor and a shared common identity, which in turn is identified by the use of of shared dynastic surnames.
A typical Gaelic male ancestor from the 16th century was tribal chief who practiced polygamy. And as the English spies report the chieftain produced many sons from many wives. (As the spies report it leads to social instability.) However, for us today it is a god send, for the chieftain had multiplied the carriers of his yDNA and his tribesí septs name. Much more than a feudal lord could achieve given the rules affecting of illegitimacy in his society. Hence in reality he is amplifying his ancestors yDNA. And driving lower branches of his tribes yDNA out of existence, as he placed his sons in positions of power.

Applying a little bit of noise theory:

In a tribal situation, that yDNA of the tribal chieftain line is re-amplified each generation. As minor branches of the tribe face excision without new land or wives. This signal of the chieftain line is an echo that can still be recovered today. Although the echo has been subject entropy, it still recent enough to be decoded out of the noise of random surname/yDNA combinations. Out of this noise, peaks of surname/yDNA correlation appear. For example, the SNP/surname association for MacLean peaks with SNP:
L513>S5668>A7>S5979>L193>PF6141>Z17816>Z17813>FGC32127>A1069>Z17814+
Breaking up in sub-branches of MacLeans, a century or so after some common ancestor in the 10th century, based on the shared SNP.
Of course, the signal is decaying over time with NPE effect. In the urban environment the effect is random, with random surname/yDNA combinations. All this serves to attenuate the signal and given a long enough time period the signal will be lost in the noise. We can see the signal of MacLeans still peaks above the noise floor. Returning to Gaelic times, woman would find themselves living within communities of closely related males. Meaning infidelity would be limited to males sharing the same yDNA line and doing little to corrupt the association between SNPs and surnames. What also can be seen in the surnames associated with a dominate SNP for a certain bloodline, are neighboring dynastic surnames. Hence providing geographical confirmation for SNP association with a given dynasty.

The Highlands might not be Galloway, however:

It clear that in Gaelic times Galloway had tribes, i.e., Clan Afren and Cenel Maine etc. And as McSkimming has pointed out there is a geographical association between the MacScumins dynastic surname and the Machars peninsula within Wigtownshire. I found twenty years back, a similar geographical association of Morgans in SE Ulster. Now that they tested their SNPs it can be shown that they share a common ancestor approximately 700 years ago. The nineteen century records said that some Morgan in the area called themselves O Muireagain in Gaelic and Gaelic genealogical tracks recorded a local family called the Ua Muireagain of Ui Tuirtre. And so it turns out the 19th century geographical concentration of Morgans, reflected that they were once a tribal association that was located in the area. (Morgans I met from this area thought, because of their surname, that they were descended from Welsh settlers.)
Given that R-L21 population settled in the British Isles at least 4000 years ago, their ancestors are undoubtably were a tribal people up to the introduction of Feudal law. As Galloway has its share of O (A) and Mac surnames and is known to have tribal groupings. It is certain that most Gaelic (and Angliziced) surnames reflect underlying tribal associations. The yDNA (SNPs) of MacDowell of Galloway match whose of Cenel Conaill of Donegal, and Gaelic records record that Cenel Conaill had a branch in the East (Scotland).

What does this mean:

At the Vans/Vance yDNA project page, there are many more Vans/Vance who are identified as L513 than any other SNP branch. This signals that they are most likely from prominent Vans/Vance family, i.e., the most likely family to produce the largest Vans/SNP signal. Of course, there are areas of concern. The first a lack of random sampling, it only can be hoped that the results are at least semi-random enough to provide a useable distribution of SNP associations. And second is the issue already mentioned, the problem of convergence in halpotypes. I have GD of 10 out of 417 STR for someone that we share a common ancestor 1500 years ago. The means there is a potential error in associating haplotypes with haplogroups. I doubt those identified as L513 are not L513, however there could be more than one L513 branch within L513+ Vans/Vance. Even if there are indeed two very large branches of L513 with Vans/Vance comparison with known families can help decipher the branches.
Applying the same process to the surname Kennedy: Clan Kennedy to be those Kennedys that are, L513>S5668>A7>S5979>L193>A3>A8. And this has been generally accepted as true. Same process can be applied to the surname Little, suggesting that Clan Little who are Ayrshire are also A8+ and geographical and genetical related to Clan Kennedy.
So, what should we make of the Vans/Vance who are L513>S5668>A7>S5979>L193>A3>FGC32082? They are closely genetically related to the Kennedys/Littles of Ayrshire. The simplest conclusion is they are the nearest Vans/Vance family of prominence to the Kennedys/Littles. Hence levering what is known to shine a light on what is not known, i.e., we can build to suggest model of relationships. It may or may not later be shown to be incorrect, however it focusses on where to look.

Norman origins:

Many families have claimed Norman origins and within the British Isles it like a cottage industry. It is driven by the social credentials it supplies and boasting of Norman origin offers to a class-based society. General opinion believes that Englandís ruling are descendant of Norman invaders. The Scots have now signed on to the same idea, in promoting that it was also a Norman based society. (I note that I donít notice any English nobility claiming to be Irish or Welsh.) And many upon many family claims to Norman ancestor have over the years been proven false.
The first century of the Norman England was a meat grinner for noble families. There was a constant need to mint new nobles, for the ones that crossed the Chanel or they children were dying young in constant wars, with no heirs to succeed them. Researching Robert Bruce, I found that his family can only be trace to 12th century Yorkshire. Where his ancestors held lands under the Earl of Chester. Who himself was engaged in a bloody war with northern Welsh. I found the Norman origin for the Bruces has no evidence to support it. We could also talk about however the Stewart family found their way back to their ancestor (yDNA) lands and what the probability of that is. Or that up to the 17th century they claim to be descendants of royal line of Cenel Gabhrain.

Mapping SNPs back to a homeland:

In regard to mapping SNP based on where their living presently. This was the basis that modern day researchers used identify the R1b homeland with Caucasian mountains, i.e., because of the high number of early variants of R1b found in the region.

Nqp15hhu
08-30-2019, 08:19 PM
L193 isnít Gaelic though is it? I will get back to you later. Thank you.

Jon
08-30-2019, 08:25 PM
So how do I determine my ancestral origin with such poor records?

I've been at this game since 2010 - the one line of my family that I was completely stuck on happened to be my father's line (my surname line: Sharp). So I also dived into Y-DNA testing, and I've learned a lot about the process. As I see it it's kind of like a lens which is very, very slowly increasing in sharpness (pun intended!), so gradually you get a more detailed picture. I am sitting on the Z17817 branch that Muireagain defined as Black/MacDuffee. I'm sitting next to a guy called Meek, which a long, drawn-out combination of SNP and STR testing matches eventually revealed as my closest match to date. We're still not that close. My matches, like yours, are littered with McLeans and Elliots, two very common L193 surnames. I think what that says is that L193 is pretty much all over Scotland. They used to say it was borders-centred, but I don't believe we can say that any more. There are groups all over. According to (admittedly old) statistics from SDNA, the most frequent hotspots for L193 guys were Perthshire and the Hebrides.

My line traces back to Ayrshire in 1742; before that we lose them. This is what I personally take away so far from my Y-DNA pedigree:

L21: Western European/speculatively Bell Beaker folks who eventually arrived in Britain and Ireland
L513: Major sub-branch of L21 which flowered in Britain and Ireland (along with many other L21 branches like DF21 etc)
S5668: Especially centred on Scotland and the northern part of Ireland (e.g. Maguires)
L193: Very Scotland focussed
Z17817: Seems to be central Scotland, but with some Hebridean influence (MacDuffee)

With my own surname of Sharp, I'm also at a loss regarding matches. I match absolutely no-one in my surname project, including even some guys from Ayrshire itself. I am pretty much convinced that I belong to the 50% of us who do not bear their 'true' surname. This is further complicated by the language situation in western Scotland, where many names (including Sharp) were in some cases changed from Gaelic originals. Tracing exact surname and clan associations has been frustratingly difficult, if not impossible. So I'm going with the slowly-focussing lens idea I mentioned.

My advice, for what it's worth, is lots of patience. And a Big Y test, if you have the spare cash.

spruithean
08-30-2019, 08:38 PM
L193 isnít Gaelic though is it? I will get back to you later. Thank you.

Certainly Gaelic populations have some level of R-L193. Ethnolinguistic affiliations do not equal Y-DNA Haplogroups.

Muireagain
08-30-2019, 08:42 PM
L193 isnít Gaelic though is it?

Interesting question, that I had been wondering myself. For although most of L193 ended up as Gaelic speakers. There is a clear association with Bythonic speaking populations. The Kennedys of Carrick spoke Gaelic, they were also captains of Muntercasduff. And Casduff is believed to be a hybrid name from both Gaelic (dubh) and Brythonic (Cas). The Life of Colmcille describes the need for an interpreter in Skye (note: Pictish now consider a branch of Brythonic), and this was home later to Clan Nicolsons - who seem to be L513+. And the area was home to the Ross and MacKenzies. Plus I suspect those called the Welsh of Mayo are also L513+.

However L513 is a branch of D13, which is found in western Scotland and all over Ireland. Namely the Gaelic speaking parts of the British Isles.

Jon
08-30-2019, 08:46 PM
Interesting question, that I had been wondering myself. For although most of L193 ended up as Gaelic speakers. There is a clear association with Bythonic speaking populations. The Kennedys of Carrick spoke Gaelic, they were also captains of Muntercasduff. And Casduff is believed to be a hybrid name from both Gaelic (dubh) and Brythonic (Cas). The Life of Colmcille describes the need for an interpreter in Skye (note: Pictish now consider a branch of Brythonic), and this was home later to Clan Nicolsons - who seem to be L513+. And the area was home to the Ross and MacKenzies. Plus I suspect those called the Welsh of Mayo are also L513+.

However L513 is a branch of D13, which is found in western Scotland and all over Ireland. Namely the Gaelic speaking parts of the British Isles.

Right - and that would also explain the fairly even mix of Gaelic and non-Gaelic surnames in the group. Many very old surnames in Scotland (e.g. MacAlpin) have non-Gaelic (i.e. Brythonic or Pictish) roots. The Picts were somehow subsumed by Gaels in the early medieval period, which suggests that L513 has probably been around in Scotland since well before that linguistic split.

Nqp15hhu
08-30-2019, 08:48 PM
I match with you at the 60 marker level Jon and also the Meek guy at the 61 marker level.

Jon
08-30-2019, 08:52 PM
I match with you at the 60 marker level Jon and also the Meek guy at the 61 marker level.

So this could be an older, west-central Scotland link-up. Cumming/s is quite a frequent name in Ayrshire I think.

Nqp15hhu
09-03-2019, 01:30 AM
So this could be an older, west-central Scotland link-up. Cumming/s is quite a frequent name in Ayrshire I think.

I don't think. I'm thinking my link with Clan Cumming is far back. More likely to be 'our own' branch.

Nqp15hhu
09-03-2019, 01:32 AM
I've been at this game since 2010 - the one line of my family that I was completely stuck on happened to be my father's line (my surname line: Sharp). So I also dived into Y-DNA testing, and I've learned a lot about the process. As I see it it's kind of like a lens which is very, very slowly increasing in sharpness (pun intended!), so gradually you get a more detailed picture. I am sitting on the Z17817 branch that Muireagain defined as Black/MacDuffee. I'm sitting next to a guy called Meek, which a long, drawn-out combination of SNP and STR testing matches eventually revealed as my closest match to date. We're still not that close. My matches, like yours, are littered with McLeans and Elliots, two very common L193 surnames. I think what that says is that L193 is pretty much all over Scotland. They used to say it was borders-centred, but I don't believe we can say that any more. There are groups all over. According to (admittedly old) statistics from SDNA, the most frequent hotspots for L193 guys were Perthshire and the Hebrides.

My line traces back to Ayrshire in 1742; before that we lose them. This is what I personally take away so far from my Y-DNA pedigree:

L21: Western European/speculatively Bell Beaker folks who eventually arrived in Britain and Ireland
L513: Major sub-branch of L21 which flowered in Britain and Ireland (along with many other L21 branches like DF21 etc)
S5668: Especially centred on Scotland and the northern part of Ireland (e.g. Maguires)
L193: Very Scotland focussed
Z17817: Seems to be central Scotland, but with some Hebridean influence (MacDuffee)

With my own surname of Sharp, I'm also at a loss regarding matches. I match absolutely no-one in my surname project, including even some guys from Ayrshire itself. I am pretty much convinced that I belong to the 50% of us who do not bear their 'true' surname. This is further complicated by the language situation in western Scotland, where many names (including Sharp) were in some cases changed from Gaelic originals. Tracing exact surname and clan associations has been frustratingly difficult, if not impossible. So I'm going with the slowly-focussing lens idea I mentioned.

My advice, for what it's worth, is lots of patience. And a Big Y test, if you have the spare cash.

It's going way back into history, so its difficult to get an overall picture as to what it really all means. There is no true reference of geography or place of origin as people have moved around so much.

Perhaps we should just focus on the last 1,000 years. I don't get the feeling that it's Gaelic in origin.

rms2
09-04-2019, 04:43 PM
. . .

L21: Western European/speculatively Bell Beaker folks who eventually arrived in Britain and Ireland
. . .

I just noticed the line I quoted above.

Sorry to nitpick, but you can drop the word speculatively. Thanks to Olalde et al, we know that L21 came to Britain with Kurgan Bell Beaker men who also had a lot of steppe dna.

Speculating was what we were doing before the Olalde et al Beaker paper was published. We don't have to speculate about that now.

You can also drop Western European, unless you're just talking about where L21 wound up.

Muireagain
09-05-2019, 07:09 PM
Z17817: Seems to be central Scotland, but with some Hebridean influence (MacDuffee)

With my own surname of Sharp, I'm also at a loss regarding matches. I match absolutely no-one in my surname project, including even some guys from Ayrshire itself. I am pretty much convinced that I belong to the 50% of us who do not bear their 'true' surname. This is further complicated by the language situation in western Scotland, where many names (including Sharp) were in some cases changed from Gaelic originals. Tracing exact surname and clan associations has been frustratingly difficult, if not impossible. So I'm going with the slowly-focussing lens idea I mentioned.

What is the Halpogroup for the Ayrshire Sharps?

I find in the seventeenth century that MacPhie surname (assumed to be the contraction of MacDuffie) was most numerous in the Isle of Bute. And as for the Isle of Bute I find:"The reference to that prolific clan, the Mac-gill-chiarans, brings up the name of a distinguished visitor in Bute. Last century that ancient family lived in every farm and cot in the district of the Neils, and had their own burial-ground at Clachieran (Claodh Chiarain), near Glechnabae. Now they prefer the common name of Sharp."

Jon
09-06-2019, 09:27 AM
What is the Halpogroup for the Ayrshire Sharps?

I find in the seventeenth century that MacPhie surname (assumed to be the contraction of MacDuffie) was most numerous in the Isle of Bute. And as for the Isle of Bute I find:"The reference to that prolific clan, the Mac-gill-chiarans, brings up the name of a distinguished visitor in Bute. Last century that ancient family lived in every farm and cot in the district of the Neils, and had their own burial-ground at Clachieran (Claodh Chiarain), near Glechnabae. Now they prefer the common name of Sharp."

Well spotted Muireagain!

I'Ve been aware about the Bute Sharps for a while. I lose my line in 1742 in Cumnock, only 13 miles from West Kilbride, which is the mainland port for Bute. The very first Sharps in Ayrshire appear in West Kilbride in the 1720's, and they are certainly MacIlheran (Bute) Sharps - I have that on record. However so far I have no paper trail from them to my own line, nor do I know their HG. Sadly I don't know specifically what the HG of the other Ayrshire Sharps is. I had an analysis done at Scottish Origenes and the guy reckoned our line probably came up from Dumfriesshire, where the name Sharp is common. However, they tended to be English lines, so maybe less likely to be L193.

I had given up on the Bute connection, but I was not aware that the MacDuffie connection was there. That may change things a bit...although I was not aware that my own connection with MacDuffee was that close? I think my closest match is Meek, from Lanarkshire.

Nqp15hhu
09-06-2019, 01:33 PM
Would Northern English not be L193?

Jon
09-06-2019, 02:39 PM
Would Northern English not be L193?

There will be L193 there I'm sure...however it seems that the sheer frequency and age of L193 in various parts of Scotland strongly suggest it developed among older (Iron Age?) groups in what is now Scotland. I know that modern day HG frequency shouldn't be read into too much, yada yada....but I think sometimes a duck really is a duck.

Jon
09-06-2019, 07:00 PM
Hi Guys,

Muireagain has got me thinking about things Bute-related...I came across this list of the most common Isle of Bute surnames in 1841. The MacIlherans had by this point all changed to Sharp (in place 30). But it strikes me how many names under our Z17817 group are on this - I count Sharp, McFee (McDuffee?), Davidson, Blair, MacDonald, Craig, Black, Campbell, Henderson, McKillop (McCaleb?), and even Gilchrist (Crist?). That is almost all of the Z17817 surnames in our project. There are also many other L193 names on the list of course. But that is surely a huge number of surname match-ups for just Z17817. Could this really only be coincidence, or might we be onto something here?

https://www.oldscottish.com/bute.html

spruithean
09-06-2019, 07:28 PM
Hi Guys,

Muireagain has got me thinking about things Bute-related...I came across this list of the most common Isle of Bute surnames in 1841. The MacIlherans had by this point all changed to Sharp (in place 30). But it strikes me how many names under our Z17817 group are on this - I count Sharp, McFee (McDuffee?), Davidson, Blair, MacDonald, Craig, Black, Campbell, Henderson, McKillop (McCaleb?), and even Gilchrist (Crist?). That is almost all of the Z17817 surnames in our project. There are also many other L193 names on the list of course. But that is surely a huge number of surname match-ups for just Z17817. Could this really only be coincidence, or might we be onto something here?

https://www.oldscottish.com/bute.html

McFie and McDuffie are the same name, the surname McKillop comes from Mac Fhilib, meaning "son of Phillip". While the surname Gilchrist means "servant of Christ".

Jon
09-06-2019, 07:47 PM
I just read that McCaleb is a Scots/Irish variant on McKillop; it's rare, but we have it in Z17817. And we have a Crist; which could easily have been a corruption/contraction of Gilchrist.