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Greekscholar
08-23-2019, 06:05 PM
I got the inspiration to do this from the Asia Minor MDLP-World PCA being discussed. I made this using the same samples on my K15 PCA. I didn't include Crete or Constantinople at this point since I am still hunting for more kit numbers. The idea is to show the continuum from the Mainland of Greece all the way to Cyprus using 4 populations (I deleted the small amounts from other populations for this first attempt.) My quick take of my own work is........I need more samples. Since I rely on publicly posted family trees on GEDmatch for most of my samples, most of the island samples are related to each other, some samples from the same island are immediate family. So, I am sure this effort does not take into account either the range of values found on these islands (regions) nor is it an average of multiple samples.

What I do think it shows is the difference between the Mainland, NE Aegean, Dodecanese, and Cyprus Greeks. We have some outliers, and the more I see, the less confident I am that my own family (the Fourni samples) is representative of the NE Aegean islands. I personally need to start asking more Fourniotes to download to GEDmatch.

So, what does everything think? Any value here? Any surprises? Any tips to improve the methodology or presentation?. I would be interested to what this 4-population analysis would show for Southern Italians/Sicilians and Jewish groups as well. So, if people post the MDLP-World results, I can add them in.

Lastly.......how do I get these pretty charts to show up in the block of the text, rather than as an attachment. Sorry for tech question, but I like that <hide> function you all use to compress big blocks of screenshots, attachments, etc.

Update: I have added an Albanian sample (4/4 grandparents from Albania) as well for comparison.

Andrewid
10-03-2019, 08:40 AM
I got the inspiration to do this from the Asia Minor MDLP-World PCA being discussed. I made this using the same samples on my K15 PCA. I didn't include Crete or Constantinople at this point since I am still hunting for more kit numbers. The idea is to show the continuum from the Mainland of Greece all the way to Cyprus using 4 populations (I deleted the small amounts from other populations for this first attempt.) My quick take of my own work is........I need more samples. Since I rely on publicly posted family trees on GEDmatch for most of my samples, most of the island samples are related to each other, some samples from the same island are immediate family. So, I am sure this effort does not take into account either the range of values found on these islands (regions) nor is it an average of multiple samples.

What I do think it shows is the difference between the Mainland, NE Aegean, Dodecanese, and Cyprus Greeks. We have some outliers, and the more I see, the less confident I am that my own family (the Fourni samples) is representative of the NE Aegean islands. I personally need to start asking more Fourniotes to download to GEDmatch.

So, what does everything think? Any value here? Any surprises? Any tips to improve the methodology or presentation?. I would be interested to what this 4-population analysis would show for Southern Italians/Sicilians and Jewish groups as well. So, if people post the MDLP-World results, I can add them in.

Lastly.......how do I get these pretty charts to show up in the block of the text, rather than as an attachment. Sorry for tech question, but I like that <hide> function you all use to compress big blocks of screenshots, attachments, etc.

Update: I have added an Albanian sample (4/4 grandparents from Albania) as well for comparison.

Very interesting work which allows us to visualise what we might call the 'Hellenic genetic continuum'. As you say, it's about getting representative sample sizes from each region/island, and not just family members. Have you now managed to get samples from other regions such as Crete and the Ionian islands? The addition of northern regions such as Macedonia and Thrace would also be useful, though we must bear in mind we need locals who are not the descendants of refugees from Anatolia. I would imagine that Tosk Albanians and Epirotes might be practically identical. Do we know how regional your Albanian samples are? Will you add Pontic and Cappadocian Greeks to the analysis?

What's also interesting is the slightly higher 'NE Europe' of Cyprus over Rhodes. This might be just a fluke, as there is no historic record of Slav settlers in Cyprus. Though could this be reflecting settlement of northern Europeans during the long period of Frankish rule? We obviously need bigger samples.

Greekscholar
10-03-2019, 09:06 PM
Glad you liked the product. To answer your question, the Rhodes sample is your cousin "F.... from Rhodes" and based on this result, it certainly does look like she is possibly a mislabel on my part. I would strongly suspect she has Cypriot background or else is an outlier. If I can figure out a way to make the PDF visible without clicking on a link, I will add some more samples and repost. I'll look into the Albanian kit as well.

Greekscholar
10-04-2019, 01:45 AM
The Albanian kit is from Voskopoja (Moskopulos), Korca, and Boboshtica. I had not researched the towns until just now, but it seems they were all a mixing bowl of Albanians, Greeks, Aromanians, and Bulgarian language speakers (Macedonian Slavic?) very close to the border of modern Albania/Epirus/Macedonia(s).

I think I found a Pontic Greek and will add it, I need to keep working on my computer skills so I can display the chart, and not just attach it.

JerryS.
10-04-2019, 01:55 AM
I often thought about asking folks here about my Greek secondary listings with MDLP K23b. I guess the MDLP is just east shifted.

Greekscholar
10-04-2019, 02:03 AM
I often thought about asking folks here about my Greek secondary listings with MDLP K23b. I guess the MDLP is just east shifted.

Do you mean you get assigned Greek and not Italian as you secondary population? (guessing based on your flags.)

JerryS.
10-04-2019, 02:06 AM
Do you mean you get assigned Greek and not Italian as you secondary population? (guessing based on your flags.)

mostly yes. some Italian, some Jewish too. hold on, I'll look to see if I have the stuff saved and post it here.

1 82.4% Frisian ( ) + 17.6% Greek_Thessaloniki ( ) @ 1.89
2 82.1% Frisian ( ) + 17.9% Albanian_Tirana ( ) @ 1.89
3 79.7% Frisian ( ) + 20.3% Kosovar ( ) @ 1.93
4 82% Frisian ( ) + 18% Greek_Thessaly ( ) @ 1.94
5 85.9% Frisian ( ) + 14.1% Italian_South ( ) @ 1.99
6 85.5% Frisian ( ) + 14.5% Greek_Athens ( ) @ 1.99
7 83.8% Frisian ( ) + 16.2% Central_Greek ( ) @ 2
8 84.9% Frisian ( ) + 15.1% Sicilian_Center ( ) @ 2.04
9 79.2% Frisian ( ) + 20.8% Bulgarian ( ) @ 2.05
10 88.5% English_Kent_GBR ( ) + 11.5% Georgian_Tbilisi ( ) @ 2.05
11 83.4% Frisian ( ) + 16.6% Ashkenazi ( ) @ 2.08
12 79.3% Frisian ( ) + 20.7% Greek_Northwest ( ) @ 2.08
13 88.8% English_Kent_GBR ( ) + 11.2% Georgian_Laz ( ) @ 2.08
14 85.4% Frisian ( ) + 14.6% Greek ( ) @ 2.09
15 93.2% Belgian ( ) + 6.8% Georgian_Laz ( ) @ 2.1
16 84.5% Frisian ( ) + 15.5% Romanian_Jew ( ) @ 2.1
17 84.3% Frisian ( ) + 15.7% Gagauz ( ) @ 2.11
18 82.1% Frisian ( ) + 17.9% Greek_Peloponnesos ( ) @ 2.14
19 93% Belgian ( ) + 7% Georgian_Imereti ( ) @ 2.15
20 84.3% English_Kent_GBR ( ) + 15.7% Circassian ( ) @ 2.16

Sikeliot
10-04-2019, 02:27 AM
South Italians, since someone asked for them.


Avellino:

# Population Percent
1 South_and_West_European 40.5
2 Middle_East 22.66
3 Caucaus_Parsia 20.38
4 North_and_East_European 14.2


Salerno:

# Population Percent
1 South_and_West_European 38.85
2 Caucaus_Parsia 22.92
3 Middle_East 22.88
4 North_and_East_European 12.3


Apulia:

# Population Percent
1 South_and_West_European 41.57
2 Middle_East 23.17
3 Caucaus_Parsia 20.25
4 North_and_East_European 13.49


Apulia:

# Population Percent
1 South_and_West_European 40.84
2 Caucaus_Parsia 21.62
3 Middle_East 21.2
4 North_and_East_European 13.9


Basilicata:

# Population Percent
1 South_and_West_European 43.34
2 Middle_East 22.07
3 Caucaus_Parsia 18.37
4 North_and_East_European 13.38


Reggio Calabria:

# Population Percent
1 South_and_West_European 37.43
2 Middle_East 28.46
3 Caucaus_Parsia 22.85
4 North_and_East_European 7.99


Vibo Valentia:

# Population Percent
1 South_and_West_European 38.59
2 Middle_East 26.17
3 Caucaus_Parsia 22.51
4 North_and_East_European 8.59


Vibo Valentia:

# Population Percent
1 South_and_West_European 38.4
2 Middle_East 26.22
3 Caucaus_Parsia 21.59
4 North_and_East_European 10.86


Crotone:

# Population Percent
1 South_and_West_European 39.87
2 Middle_East 28.03
3 Caucaus_Parsia 21.35
4 North_and_East_European 8.95


Crotone:

# Population Percent
1 South_and_West_European 43.43
2 Middle_East 21.39
3 Caucaus_Parsia 18.21
4 North_and_East_European 13.85


Catanzaro:

# Population Percent
1 South_and_West_European 40.29
2 Middle_East 28.28
3 Caucaus_Parsia 22.26
4 North_and_East_European 8.23


Messina:

# Population Percent
1 South_and_West_European 38.79
2 Middle_East 25.61
3 Caucaus_Parsia 22.21
4 North_and_East_European 10.83


Messina:

# Population Percent
1 South_and_West_European 40.29
2 Middle_East 27.94
3 Caucaus_Parsia 22.06
4 North_and_East_European 8.47


Catania:

# Population Percent
1 South_and_West_European 39.39
2 Middle_East 26.46
3 Caucaus_Parsia 20.82
4 North_and_East_European 10.7


Catania:

# Population Percent
1 South_and_West_European 40.97
2 Middle_East 23.98
3 Caucaus_Parsia 21.94
4 North_and_East_European 10.05


Palermo:

# Population Percent
1 South_and_West_European 40.58
2 Middle_East 25.38
3 Caucaus_Parsia 22.47
4 North_and_East_European 8.68


Palermo:

# Population Percent
1 South_and_West_European 38.97
2 Middle_East 26.72
3 Caucaus_Parsia 21.35
4 North_and_East_European 9.53


Palermo:

# Population Percent
1 South_and_West_European 40.69
2 Middle_East 25.77
3 Caucaus_Parsia 20.68
4 North_and_East_European 10.41


Palermo:

# Population Percent
1 South_and_West_European 42.31
2 Middle_East 23.22
3 Caucaus_Parsia 20.87
4 North_and_East_European 9.74


Palermo:

# Population Percent
1 South_and_West_European 41.43
2 Middle_East 22.24
3 Caucaus_Parsia 21.2
4 North_and_East_European 11.6


Caltanissetta:

# Population Percent
1 South_and_West_European 41.33
2 Middle_East 25.8
3 Caucaus_Parsia 18.79
4 North_and_East_European 10.38


Caltanissetta:

# Population Percent
1 South_and_West_European 40.87
2 Middle_East 23.97
3 Caucaus_Parsia 23.18
4 North_and_East_European 9.39


Caltanissetta:

# Population Percent
1 South_and_West_European 38.48
2 Caucaus_Parsia 23.99
3 Middle_East 22.78
4 North_and_East_European 10.14


Syracuse:

# Population Percent
1 South_and_West_European 40.99
2 Middle_East 22.27
3 Caucaus_Parsia 19.86
4 North_and_East_European 14.04


Syracuse:

# Population Percent
1 South_and_West_European 42.66
2 Middle_East 21.36
3 Caucaus_Parsia 18.05
4 North_and_East_European 14.57


Ragusa:

# Population Percent
1 South_and_West_European 42.48
2 Middle_East 21.02
3 Caucaus_Parsia 18.81
4 North_and_East_European 13.34


Ragusa:

# Population Percent
1 South_and_West_European 39.11
2 Middle_East 22.69
3 Caucaus_Parsia 19.59
4 North_and_East_European 14.27


Trapani:

# Population Percent
1 South_and_West_European 42.46
2 Middle_East 22.9
3 Caucaus_Parsia 18.25
4 North_and_East_European 12.54


Agrigento:

# Population Percent
1 South_and_West_European 38.83
2 Middle_East 24.68
3 Caucaus_Parsia 21.05
4 North_and_East_European 12.85


Enna:

# Population Percent
1 South_and_West_European 41.12
2 Middle_East 22.78
3 Caucaus_Parsia 20.38
4 North_and_East_European 12.29

Greekscholar
10-04-2019, 02:32 AM
mostly yes. some Italian, some Jewish too. hold on, I'll look to see if I have the stuff saved and post it here.

1 82.4% Frisian ( ) + 17.6% Greek_Thessaloniki ( ) @ 1.89
2 82.1% Frisian ( ) + 17.9% Albanian_Tirana ( ) @ 1.89
3 79.7% Frisian ( ) + 20.3% Kosovar ( ) @ 1.93
4 82% Frisian ( ) + 18% Greek_Thessaly ( ) @ 1.94
5 85.9% Frisian ( ) + 14.1% Italian_South ( ) @ 1.99
6 85.5% Frisian ( ) + 14.5% Greek_Athens ( ) @ 1.99
7 83.8% Frisian ( ) + 16.2% Central_Greek ( ) @ 2
8 84.9% Frisian ( ) + 15.1% Sicilian_Center ( ) @ 2.04
9 79.2% Frisian ( ) + 20.8% Bulgarian ( ) @ 2.05
10 88.5% English_Kent_GBR ( ) + 11.5% Georgian_Tbilisi ( ) @ 2.05
11 83.4% Frisian ( ) + 16.6% Ashkenazi ( ) @ 2.08
12 79.3% Frisian ( ) + 20.7% Greek_Northwest ( ) @ 2.08
13 88.8% English_Kent_GBR ( ) + 11.2% Georgian_Laz ( ) @ 2.08
14 85.4% Frisian ( ) + 14.6% Greek ( ) @ 2.09
15 93.2% Belgian ( ) + 6.8% Georgian_Laz ( ) @ 2.1
16 84.5% Frisian ( ) + 15.5% Romanian_Jew ( ) @ 2.1
17 84.3% Frisian ( ) + 15.7% Gagauz ( ) @ 2.11
18 82.1% Frisian ( ) + 17.9% Greek_Peloponnesos ( ) @ 2.14
19 93% Belgian ( ) + 7% Georgian_Imereti ( ) @ 2.15
20 84.3% English_Kent_GBR ( ) + 15.7% Circassian ( ) @ 2.16

Yes, that would all make sense. You have North Sea populations + either Continuum populations, their closest neighbors, or Caucasus (in smaller amounts, as expected to account for your eastern shift.) In my experience, the Oracle on the MDLP tests are pretty good, although you always have to watch for proxies for your actual ancestry. The odds the tool guesses the exact populations isn't very high.

JerryS.
10-04-2019, 02:44 AM
Yes, that would all make sense. You have North Sea populations + either Continuum populations, their closest neighbors, or Caucasus (in smaller amounts, as expected to account for your eastern shift.) In my experience, the Oracle on the MDLP tests are pretty good, although you always have to watch for proxies for your actual ancestry. The odds the tool guesses the exact populations isn't very high.

I don't know what that means exactly, I figured the primary was a happy middle zone of the English/Scottish and German and the Greek was used instead of Italian because the oracle was shifted east or has a slight east bias. the Ashkenazi and Romanian Jew are way past my understanding as to why they were used as representatives.

Sikeliot
10-04-2019, 02:48 AM
My Syracuse/Ragusa/Apulia/Lucania samples are not that different from the Messinia/Arcadia or Laconia samples, and probably closest to the ones from Fourni. The other Sicilians and Calabrians are closer to the Chios/Kalymnos samples.

I suspect Lesbos, Lemnos, and Samos would be similar to Fourni.

Greekscholar
10-04-2019, 02:56 AM
I don't know what that means exactly, I figured the primary was a happy middle zone of the English/Scottish and German and the Greek was used instead of Italian because the oracle was shifted east or has a slight east bias. the Ashkenazi and Romanian Jew are way past my understanding as to why they were used as representatives.

Island Greeks, Southern Italians, and European Jews are very difficult to distinguish on these types of tests. If you had, say 100 samples from each group, there would be large areas of overlap between them. To put it another way, I am 100% Greek Islander by my family tree, but most ethnicity calculators place me closer to the mean for Southern Italians, and various Jewish populations. Mainland Greeks, Albanians, Slavic Macedonians, and Bulgarians also cluster together. There is minimal to no overlap between these two clusters, but they still share a lot in common with each other. The Caucasus region is different, but it has component parts in those other clusters which the test picks up.

Best to think of them as proxy populations for your actual ancestry that the test uses to explain your personal DNA profile.

Greekscholar
10-04-2019, 03:00 AM
My Syracuse/Ragusa/Apulia/Lucania samples are not that different from the Messinia/Arcadia or Laconia samples, and probably closest to the ones from Fourni. The other Sicilians and Calabrians are closer to the Chios/Kalymnos samples.

I suspect Lesbos, Lemnos, and Samos would be similar to Fourni.

You've got kit numbers from Lemnos and Mytilini, right? Or do you just have spread data for particular tests? If you have the kits, I would LOVE to see those islands on MDLP - World. Thanks

Sikeliot
10-04-2019, 03:17 AM
You've got kit numbers from Lemnos and Mytilini, right? Or do you just have spread data for particular tests? If you have the kits, I would LOVE to see those islands on MDLP - World. Thanks

I do not have any kits from those islands but based on their results on 23andme they are not on the extremely "exotic" end for the islands, especially not Lemnos.

NarLFC
10-29-2019, 12:08 AM
Does anyone have any Anatolian Greek kits that they can share please?