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Farroukh
08-24-2019, 02:59 AM
Average estimated % of E-M35 in Europe is <10%. But there should be the local maximums.

Old papers consider Albanians as bearers of highest local percentage (up to 40% and even higher).

What about the latest map of E-M35 in Europe?

Farroukh
09-07-2019, 12:01 PM
Peričic 2005 reported about high percentage of E-M35 in Albanians (more than 40%), but he considered only local group from Kosovo. We have no enough statistics to claim about more than 40% of E-M35 over all Albanians.


The average points of E-M35 in the Balkans appears to be around 25% with local maximums.

Kelmendasi
09-14-2019, 10:45 PM
Peričic 2005 reported about high percentage of E-M35 in Albanians (more than 40%), but he considered only local group from Kosovo. We have no enough statistics to claim about more than 40% of E-M35 over all Albanians.


The average points of E-M35 in the Balkans appears to be around 25% with local maximums.
Based on the results of the Albanian Y-DNA project E-V13 in Albanians is 28% (228/815). However, if you include other E-M35 clades such as E-V22, E-M123 and E-M81 the percentage increases to ~29.7% (around 242/815). http://www.gjenetika.com/statistikat/

rms2
09-15-2019, 02:17 AM
I know from contact with some third cousins (who are Ancestry and Family Finder matches) that one of my second great grandfathers was E-V13. His immigrant ancestor was from Northern Ireland and had a British surname. I'm thinking of ancestry from a Roman soldier of Balkan origin, but who knows?

Here's his picture, btw. He was a Confederate soldier during the American Civil War and served in Lee's Army of Northern Virginia in every battle except First Manassas (Bull Run).

33186

Farroukh
09-15-2019, 05:22 AM
242/815 ratio shows realistic percentage. ~25...30%, not over than 40%.

Do they have downstream SNP information (BogY/Yfull)?

hartaisarlag
09-15-2019, 05:48 AM
Based on the results of the Albanian Y-DNA project E-V13 in Albanians is 28% (228/815). However, if you include other E-M35 clades such as E-V22, E-M123 and E-M81 the percentage increases to ~29.7% (around 242/815). http://www.gjenetika.com/statistikat/

What are the sources for that collection? I see 2 E-M34 > L791 > Y4972 individuals in there, but can't find them on FTDNA.

Johane Derite
09-15-2019, 10:22 AM
What are the sources for that collection? I see 2 E-M34 > L791 > Y4972 individuals in there, but can't find them on FTDNA.

The source is the Albanian Bloodlines project, which accepts YSEQ results also, so they wont be on FTDNA. The non-V13 E in Albanians seems to be related to non-Albanian minorities from different time periods.

http://www.gjenetika.com/rezultatet/

Kelmendasi
09-15-2019, 11:02 AM
What are the sources for that collection? I see 2 E-M34 > L791 > Y4972 individuals in there, but can't find them on FTDNA.
As Johane Derite said, it's a project which tests people through FTDNA and YSEQ. The project has reached 815 members so far.

The E-Y4972 guys tested with YSEQ, they are both from the area of Kukes in Northeastern Albania. When would you say this group reached the Balkans? I see that it has a TMRCA of 5,500ybp and there are some basal clades in Southern Europe (1 Greek from Ioannina also)

Johane Derite
09-15-2019, 11:05 AM
I know from contact with some third cousins (who are Ancestry and Family Finder matches) that one of my second great grandfathers was E-V13. His immigrant ancestor was from Northern Ireland and had a British surname. I'm thinking of ancestry from a Roman soldier of Balkan origin, but who knows?

Here's his picture, btw. He was a Confederate soldier during the American Civil War and served in Lee's Army of Northern Virginia in every battle except First Manassas (Bull Run).

33186

There are also EV13 clades which are pre-Roman in Ireland/Scotland.

Check the EV13 tree and Ctrl + F: "IRL" and "SCT", and you'll see some fit roman expansion with ~2000YBP TMRCA and parallel clades in Italy, while some have ~3500YBP TMRCA.

https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-V13/

Kelmendasi
09-15-2019, 11:10 AM
242/815 ratio shows realistic percentage. ~25...30%, not over than 40%.

Do they have downstream SNP information (BogY/Yfull)?
The SNP information is given here http://www.gjenetika.com/rezultatet/

As for Y-Full I found these:
https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-Y81468/
https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-Y84585/
https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-Z38456/
https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-FT12534/
https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-BY105970/
https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-Y145455*/
https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-Y93102/
https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-Y173822/
https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-Y146086/
https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-PH2180/
https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-CTS4089/
https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-Y159961/

rms2
09-15-2019, 01:08 PM
There are also EV13 clades which are pre-Roman in Ireland/Scotland.

Check the EV13 tree and Ctrl + F: "IRL" and "SCT", and you'll see some fit roman expansion with ~2000YBP TMRCA and parallel clades in Italy, while some have ~3500YBP TMRCA.

https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-V13/

Thanks for that. I'll have to check the Holmes Project to see if any of them has done the Big Y and has a terminal SNP downstream of E-V13.

hartaisarlag
09-15-2019, 05:07 PM
As Johane Derite said, it's a project which tests people through FTDNA and YSEQ. The project has reached 815 members so far.

The E-Y4972 guys tested with YSEQ, they are both from the area of Kukes in Northeastern Albania. When would you say this group reached the Balkans? I see that it has a TMRCA of 5,500ybp and there are some basal clades in Southern Europe (1 Greek from Ioannina also)

Ah, got it. I see that they're from neighboring villages.

The Greek from Ioannina is a Romaniote Jew; in fact, 3 or 4 Romaniote families are confirmed as members of that basal Y4972 branch (defined at FTDNA by BY36958), which they oddly share with a putatively non-Jewish American of Germanic (Dutch?) origin.

Y4971 has a TMRCA of 5500 ybp, and includes at least 3 branches: one with an Iraqi and a Kuwaiti, one found among Gulf Arabs and Jews, and then Y4972 (TMRCA: 5000 ybp), with a presence all across continental Europe, plus Palestine, Iraq, Armenia, and the Gulf. A fourth (represented by the newly uploaded Y4971* sample) has been found in a single Polish person, and could just be connected to the Balto-Slavic E-L791 individual found in the big Viking paper.

Its internal phylogeny is confusing—Italians share a branch with Russians and Armenians, French people share a branch with Gulf Arabs. The Palestinian and Iraqi haven't been confirmed in any downstream branches or uploaded to YFull; a good number of Arabians and Armenians seem likely to be Y4972+, but haven't been confirmed.

In short, it's very hard for me to say much about how and when this branch ended up in Albania, but I wouldn't necessarily connect it to its presence among nearby Romaniote Jews. A Levantine/Near Eastern origin still seems like the most parsimonious option, but I don't know likely a Near Eastern migration to Europe (perhaps via the Balkans) would have been at the tail end of the Neolithic. To me it seems likelier than the reverse, especially given Y4972's siblings. Altogether, E-L791 is a tricky one, especially because Y4971's sibling, Y2947, is almost entirely European—which makes it overall a much more European-skewed clade of E than its larger Mesolithic sibling branch, E-M84.

PS I will note that a member of E-L791's newly attested third branch, BY45413, possibly the newest upload under E-L791*, is Macedonian.

hartaisarlag
09-15-2019, 05:25 PM
Re-examining the map, I think it's very likely I passed through Kukës on the way from Tirana to Prizren on Christmas Eve 2014.

Farroukh
09-16-2019, 04:31 AM
Are E-M34 Albanians Bektashi Moslems?

Kelmendasi
09-16-2019, 01:24 PM
Are E-M34 Albanians Bektashi Moslems?
I'm not too sure. Most of the samples seem to come from areas of Albania which have a higher Sunni Muslim population than Bektashi, though there are others that come from a religiously mixed region. M34 so far has been found in Kukes (villages located near Kosovo), Tirana (villages located to the north, east and SW of the county), Southern Elbasan and Berat (though these families from Berat claim origin from a village called Voskopoje in Korca). There is also a Macedonian guy who is from the Devoll region of Korca.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/86/Traditional_Distribution_of_Religions_in_Albania.p ng

Farroukh
09-16-2019, 03:41 PM
Very interesting. I think some of V22/M34 guys are the descendants of Shia missionaries (the same situation is in India: most of E-M35 concentrated inShia community).

Kelmendasi
09-16-2019, 04:01 PM
Very interesting. I think some of V22/M34 guys are the descendants of Shia missionaries (the same situation is in India: most of E-M35 concentrated inShia community).
It's possible, but as of now the evidence doesn't seem to support it. Most of the V22 and M34 guys seem to be Sunni Muslims and belong to clades that have connections to the Middle East that are >3,000 years old. Shia Islam itself isn't really present in Albania, though I guess the Bektashi order does count as a branch of Shia Islam. If they were descendants of Bektashi migrants from Western Asia we would expect connections with the Middle East which are more recent.

hartaisarlag
09-16-2019, 04:07 PM
It's possible, but as of now the evidence doesn't seem to support it. Most of the V22 and M34 guys seem to be Sunni Muslims and belong to clades that have connections to the Middle East that are >3,000 years old. Shia Islam itself isn't really present in Albania, though I guess the Bektashi order does count as a branch of Shia Islam. If they were descendants of Bektashi migrants from Western Asia we would expect connections with the Middle East which are more recent.

I agree. The manager of the project responded to me, btw, and tells me that these folks are Y4972+ K257-, which puts them in the company of the Romaniote—Dutch-American branch, a Swiss German, and likely, a Saudi—not necessarily implying a close relationship, but as the only known Y4972's who aren't members of K257 (a very ethnically diverse clade itself). Nothing so far tells us anything about their closest ethnogeographical ties, but there is reason to believe the line's been in Europe for thousands of years.

Johane Derite
09-16-2019, 05:42 PM
It's possible, but as of now the evidence doesn't seem to support it. Most of the V22 and M34 guys seem to be Sunni Muslims and belong to clades that have connections to the Middle East that are >3,000 years old. Shia Islam itself isn't really present in Albania, though I guess the Bektashi order does count as a branch of Shia Islam. If they were descendants of Bektashi migrants from Western Asia we would expect connections with the Middle East which are more recent.

In Tetova, Macedonia in a tekke I was told by a Shia that among the first missionaries in Albania/Macedonia were Shia missionaries, before the Ottoman Empire had properly entered the balkans, in the 14th century AD.

Kelmendasi
09-16-2019, 05:55 PM
In Tetova, Macedonia in a tekke I was told by a Shia that among the first missionaries in Albania/Macedonia were Shia missionaries, before the Ottoman Empire had properly entered the balkans, in the 14th century AD.
Are you sure this man was an actual Shia Muslim and not a Bektashi? Tekkes are places of worship used by Sufi Muslims such as Bektashis. Technically Sufism is a branch of Shia Islam but they've become pretty distinct from each other.
Anyways, Shia missionaries had little to no impact in Albania or the Balkans in general based on what we know.

Johane Derite
09-16-2019, 06:40 PM
Are you sure this man was an actual Shia Muslim and not a Bektashi? Tekkes are places of worship used by Sufi Muslims such as Bektashis. Technically Sufism is a branch of Shia Islam but they've become pretty distinct from each other.
Anyways, Shia missionaries had little to no impact in Albania or the Balkans in general based on what we know.

I meant bektashi, i pretty much consider them Shia, i dont know how correct this is.

Kelmendasi
09-16-2019, 06:56 PM
I meant bektashi, i pretty much consider them Shia, i dont know how correct this is.
Well they're pretty distinct, the Sufi order in general is pretty distinct from all other Islamic branches. As far as I know, originally Sufism was more based on Sunni Islam. I'm not sure if it's correct either. From what I understand the Bektashi order spread into the Balkans during the 16th Century, it was at first extremely popular among the Janissaries who helped spread it due to their increase in influence and prominence within the Empire (especially Balkan provinces).

td120
09-17-2019, 01:35 AM
The Qizilbash and Bektashi are put under the Alevi umbrella then they talk about non-Sunni muslims in Bulgaria.
The Qizilbash number around 51 000 in the 2001 census.
https://bg.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%90%D0%BB%D0%B5%D0%B2%D0%B8%D1%82%D0%B8

...after the dismissal of the order the Bektashi probably fused with the Qizilbash and according to the article, the greater part settled in Albania.
The speculations are they are descendants of Shia muslims forcefully settled on the Eastern Balkans from Asia Minor
("considerable presence of Shia muslims in the very beginning of XVIc."

https://bg.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%90%D0%BB%D0%B5%D0%B2%D0%B8%D1%82%D0%B8#/media/%D0%A4%D0%B0%D0%B9%D0%BB:Bulgaria_-_alevi_villages.png

Farroukh
09-17-2019, 06:34 AM
We talking about possible descendants of early Shia missionaries in Albanians, not about real Shia Islam, sure.

As a speculation I can talk about some E-M123/V22 guys as a possible descendants of late medieval Shia migrants from Iran/Turkey. These areas are not widely tested, what can be the reason of lack of matches

Johane Derite
09-17-2019, 10:41 AM
Anybody know Ev13 percentage in Armenians? What clades etc?

Kelmendasi
09-17-2019, 01:17 PM
Anybody know Ev13 percentage in Armenians? What clades etc?
They seem to be around 8% E1b1b though I'm not sure how much of that is E-V13. They seem to mainly come under V13>Z5018>S2979 based on the FTDNA project results. They fall under E-L241, E-A7135, E-BY5407, E-Z21371 and even E-Y84931

Farroukh
09-18-2019, 04:32 AM
Balkans seems to be the Fatherland of E-V13 first man. There is aDNA results from Zemunica cave (Croatia).

Is there any remnant from ancient sites in Albania?

Farroukh
09-18-2019, 04:42 AM
The spread of farming in the Eastern Adriatic (http://www.antiquity.ac.uk/projgall/forenbaher305/)

Interesting list of Neolithic sites in Balkans. Unfortunately, no info about DNA

Kelmendasi
09-18-2019, 12:31 PM
Balkans seems to be the Fatherland of E-V13 first man. There is aDNA results from Zemunica cave (Croatia).

Is there any remnant from ancient sites in Albania?
Current data does agree with a Balkan origin of E-V13. V13 reaches highest diversity in the Balkans, basal clades are most common there and we have now found an E-L618 sample from Croatia as you pointed out. If it turns out that V13 didn't originate in the Balkans, then I would guess that it came from Western Asia.

There are ancient sites all over Albania dating from the Paleolithic to Medieval, though I doubt that they will be tested anytime soon.

Lupriac
09-19-2019, 02:05 PM
I meant bektashi, i pretty much consider them Shia, i dont know how correct this is.

They're quite distinct from Shias, bektashis are Alevis.

Tz85
09-19-2019, 09:34 PM
More than likely E-V13 originated in West Asian, and settled in the Balkans.

Kelmendasi
09-19-2019, 10:11 PM
More than likely E-V13 originated in West Asian, and settled in the Balkans.
What would you base this on? It's a possibility, but right now that doesn't seem more likely than a Balkan origin.

Tz85
09-19-2019, 10:41 PM
How did they arrive to the Balkans?

Tz85
09-19-2019, 10:41 PM
What would you base this on? It's a possibility, but right now that doesn't seem more likely than a Balkan origin.

How did they arrive to the Balkans?

thejkhan
09-19-2019, 10:56 PM
How did they arrive to the Balkans?

As pre E-V13 from somewhere else in Europe. All 3 branches of E-L618, including E-V13, are found in Europe. Some aDNA from Hungary belongs to its parent clade (L618).

Johane Derite
09-19-2019, 10:57 PM
More than likely E-V13 originated in West Asian, and settled in the Balkans.

Not really. 7500 year old parent clade of E-V13 has been found on the croatian coast (Mathieson). This significantly elevates the probability that EV13 is a balkan mutation.

I think it might be connected with the Copper Age and the Vinca Culture.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/60/Vin%C4%8Da_culture_locator_map.svg/1200px-Vin%C4%8Da_culture_locator_map.svg.png

Tz85
09-19-2019, 11:03 PM
Makes sense..

Kelmendasi
09-19-2019, 11:06 PM
How did they arrive to the Balkans?
I believe that E-V13 originated in the Balkans sometime during the Neolithic (~8,000 years ago). V13 reaches highest diversity in the Balkans as well as basal clades ike Y30977 (PH1246) being most common there, and almost non-existent in Asia. The oldest V13 sample to date is from a ~7,000 year old Neolithic sample from Eastern Spain which belonged to the Cardium Pottery Culture, a culture which likely started off in the Balkans and expanded westwards.

aDNA does seem to show a connection between V13 and the Cardium Pottery Culture. E-L618, the fatherclade of V13, was also found in a sample belonging to the Cardium Pottery Culture. This sample was from the Dalmatian coast of Croatia and was roughly 7,600-7,400 years old. judging that both L618 and V13 were found in this culture, I think it's reasonable to assume that the origin of E-V13 is closely linked to it.

E-L618 I think probably arrived in the Balkans from West Asia, though I have seen arguments made that it arrived directly from North Africa due to there seemingly being North African influence in the Cardium Pottery Culture and some other Mediterranean cultures.

Kelmendasi
09-19-2019, 11:21 PM
Not really. 7500 year old parent clade of E-V13 has been found on the croatian coast (Mathieson). This significantly elevates the probability that EV13 is a balkan mutation.

I think it might be connected with the Copper Age and the Vinca Culture.

[IG]https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/60/Vin%C4%8Da_culture_locator_map.svg/1200px-Vin%C4%8Da_culture_locator_map.svg.png[/IMG]
The Vinca Culture so far has turned out to mainly belong to G2a (PF3147), with some I2a1 and H2 showing up iirc. It's possible that V13 could show up, but we'll have to see. Personally I believe that the Cardium Pottery Culture seems to have the closest link to V13 when it comes to Neolithic cultures. As for time periods, I think V13 went through a massive boom during the Bronze Age as is suggested by the TMRCA (~4,800ybp).

Tz85
09-19-2019, 11:28 PM
I believe that E-V13 originated in the Balkans sometime during the Neolithic (~8,000 years ago). V13 reaches highest diversity in the Balkans as well as basal clades ike Y30977 (PH1246) being most common there, and almost non-existent in Asia. The oldest V13 sample to date is from a ~7,000 year old Neolithic sample from Eastern Spain which belonged to the Cardium Pottery Culture, a culture which likely started off in the Balkans and expanded westwards.

aDNA does seem to show a connection between V13 and the Cardium Pottery Culture. E-L618, the fatherclade of V13, was also found in a sample belonging to the Cardium Pottery Culture. This sample was from the Dalmatian coast of Croatia and was roughly 7,600-7,400 years old. judging that both L618 and V13 were found in this culture, I think it's reasonable to assume that the origin of E-V13 is closely linked to it.

E-L618 I think probably arrived in the Balkans from West Asia, though I have seen arguments made that it arrived directly from North Africa due to there seemingly being North African influence in the Cardium Pottery Culture and some other Mediterranean cultures.

Makes sense. Seems more logical to me that it was directly from North Africa. Considering E-V13 at very low levels through the middle East, apart from Turkey.

Johane Derite
09-19-2019, 11:33 PM
The Vinca Culture so far has turned out to mainly belong to G2a (PF3147), with some I2a1 and H2 showing up iirc. It's possible that V13 could show up, but we'll have to see. Personally I believe that the Cardium Pottery Culture seems to have the closest link to V13 when it comes to Neolithic cultures. As for time periods, I think V13 went through a massive boom during the Bronze Age as is suggested by the TMRCA (~4,800ybp).

I agree about origins of EV13, but I think it must have been ample in central europe for that bronze age boom to have been possible, and see Vinca as the conduit.

We need more samples as Vinca covered a huge territory as it is demarcated by archaeologists, and I am not sure from which regions those samples are from, there are plenty of necropolises in Kosova that should be tested but our academies are far behind. This one on the left was found 3 kilometers from my village, and my relatives know of sites where lots of clay ceramics and stuff was found:

https://i.ytimg.com/vi/KU6I75cEfS8/hqdefault.jpg

Pribislav
09-19-2019, 11:36 PM
How did they arrive to the Balkans?

My guess is North Africa (modern Tunisia)>Sicily>Southern Italy>Balkans, I wrote in detail (https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?11538-Genetic-origins-of-the-Minoans-and-Mycenaeans&p=269645&viewfull=1#post269645) about this more than two years ago.

Farroukh
09-20-2019, 04:54 AM
If you look at E-L618 Yfull tree you see E-BY6578 in Lebanon. It moves the arrow to Egypt-->Levant-->Asia Minor scenario.

Also keep in mind there was no channel between Asia Minor and Balkans 8kya, Black Sea was big closed lake

thejkhan
09-20-2019, 06:05 AM
If you look at E-L618 Yfull tree you see E-BY6578 in Lebanon. It moves the arrow to Egypt-->Levant-->Asia Minor scenario.

Also keep in mind there was no channel between Asia Minor and Balkans 8kya, Black Sea was big closed lake

Another guy in same branch is from Latvia. It’s possible that the Lebanese had some European ancestor.

Johane Derite
09-20-2019, 08:45 AM
North Africa 5000 years ago was lush according to recent studies. There was an abrupt climate shift which created the sahara desert. This is within the timeline of Cardium culture and others, so it must be relevant to consideration.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EDXugdHXYAANpsM.jpg

Nature: "Green Sahara: African Humid Periods Paced by Earth's Orbital Changes"

https://www.nature.com/scitable/knowledge/library/green-sahara-african-humid-periods-paced-by-82884405/

Also:

https://phys.org/news/2013-04-abrupt-widespread-climate-shift-sahara.html

"As recently as 5,000 years ago, the Sahara—today a vast desert in northern Africa, spanning more than 3.5 million square miles—was a verdant landscape, with sprawling vegetation and numerous lakes. Ancient cave paintings in the region depict hippos in watering holes, and roving herds of elephants and giraffes—a vibrant contrast with today's barren, inhospitable terrain."

Farroukh
09-20-2019, 12:01 PM
It’s possible that the Lebanese had some European ancestor.
Back migration from Europe to Levant 5 Kya? It isn't quite impossible, but so questionable.

Also we have Gibraltar as another short step to Europe.

thejkhan
09-20-2019, 02:47 PM
Back migration from Europe to Levant 5 Kya? It isn't quite impossible, but so questionable.


I never mentioned 5kya. It could be much more recent.

hartaisarlag
11-15-2019, 04:29 AM
As Johane Derite said, it's a project which tests people through FTDNA and YSEQ. The project has reached 815 members so far.

The E-Y4972 guys tested with YSEQ, they are both from the area of Kukes in Northeastern Albania. When would you say this group reached the Balkans? I see that it has a TMRCA of 5,500ybp and there are some basal clades in Southern Europe (1 Greek from Ioannina also)

Thought I'd follow up here.

It's worth noting that the newest-characterized and smallest branch of E-L791, E-BY45413 in FTDNA's parlance, just gained a new Albanian from Kolonjë—joining a Macedonian and an Italian from Abruzzo. I expect that this new branch will figure in the next YFull tree update, hopefully with an age estimate. Right now, the three individuals are grouped under E-L791*.

Compared to the wide geographical breadth of E-L791's two other daughter-branches, Y2947 and Y4972, this Adriatic-Balkan distribution seems awfully compact and parsimonious. I'm still wondering what kind of population movements could explain L791's relatively deep structure in Europe.

Turksteelman
12-27-2019, 12:52 AM
Ah, got it. I see that they're from neighboring villages.

The Greek from Ioannina is a Romaniote Jew; in fact, 3 or 4 Romaniote families are confirmed as members of that basal Y4972 branch (defined at FTDNA by BY36958), which they oddly share with a putatively non-Jewish American of Germanic (Dutch?) origin.

Y4971 has a TMRCA of 5500 ybp, and includes at least 3 branches: one with an Iraqi and a Kuwaiti, one found among Gulf Arabs and Jews, and then Y4972 (TMRCA: 5000 ybp), with a presence all across continental Europe, plus Palestine, Iraq, Armenia, and the Gulf. A fourth (represented by the newly uploaded Y4971* sample) has been found in a single Polish person, and could just be connected to the Balto-Slavic E-L791 individual found in the big Viking paper.

Its internal phylogeny is confusing—Italians share a branch with Russians and Armenians, French people share a branch with Gulf Arabs. The Palestinian and Iraqi haven't been confirmed in any downstream branches or uploaded to YFull; a good number of Arabians and Armenians seem likely to be Y4972+, but haven't been confirmed.

In short, it's very hard for me to say much about how and when this branch ended up in Albania, but I wouldn't necessarily connect it to its presence among nearby Romaniote Jews. A Levantine/Near Eastern origin still seems like the most parsimonious option, but I don't know likely a Near Eastern migration to Europe (perhaps via the Balkans) would have been at the tail end of the Neolithic. To me it seems likelier than the reverse, especially given Y4972's siblings. Altogether, E-L791 is a tricky one, especially because Y4971's sibling, Y2947, is almost entirely European—which makes it overall a much more European-skewed clade of E than its larger Mesolithic sibling branch, E-M84.

PS I will note that a member of E-L791's newly attested third branch, BY45413, possibly the newest upload under E-L791*, is Macedonian.

Hi hartaisarlag, I am BY45413. This is the first time I have heard that my group is Macedonian. Do you have any further insite into this? I am somewhat of a novice in the field. Thanks

Turksteelman
12-27-2019, 01:14 AM
PS I will note that a member of E-L791's newly attested third branch, BY45413, possibly the newest upload under E-L791*, is Macedonian. I am most likely that member. Do you have any additional info on this subject. I'm still a novice in the area. Thanks

hartaisarlag
12-27-2019, 02:03 AM
PS I will note that a member of E-L791's newly attested third branch, BY45413, possibly the newest upload under E-L791*, is Macedonian. I am most likely that member. Do you have any additional info on this subject. I'm still a novice in the area. Thanks

Wait, are you Macedonian or Italian? Confused here. Can you PM me your YFull / FTDNA IDs?

Turksteelman
12-28-2019, 01:42 AM
I am Italian. I am not yet able to PM until I hit 15. I can only send to Staff.

hartaisarlag
12-28-2019, 01:45 AM
I am Italian. I am not yet able to PM until I hit 15. I can only send to Staff.

Got it - sent you one, I think I recognize you from E-L791 olden days. I believe you and an Albanian now share an estimated TMRCA of 400 CE; the Macedonian isn’t on the YFull tree, IIRC. That is, unless the Albanian and the Macedonian are the same person labeled two different ways (ethnic Albanian from Macedonia), and the third member of the clade at FTDNA is someone else.

Turksteelman
12-28-2019, 02:28 PM
You are correct. I have been hanging out on my own tree limb for quite some time. Just found this forum and I recognize some of the folks.

hartaisarlag
12-28-2019, 02:32 PM
You are correct. I have been hanging out on my own tree limb for quite some time. Just found this forum and I recognize some of the folks.

Welcome! We've come a long way. Still a lot up in the air re: E-L791, though!

Tsecrist
02-02-2020, 01:04 PM
The E-Y4972 guys tested with YSEQ, they are both from the area of Kukes in Northeastern Albania.



The Greek from Ioannina is a Romaniote Jew; in fact, 3 or 4 Romaniote families are confirmed as members of that basal Y4972 branch (defined at FTDNA by BY36958), which they oddly share with a putatively non-Jewish American of Germanic (Dutch?) origin.

Hello, I am the odd non-Jewish American E-Y4972 and would be interested in comparing my results with these other on my branch. I have been able to take my paternal line back to 1490 Switzerland but would like to go further.

Farroukh
02-22-2020, 10:27 AM
Local E-V13 maximum in Ruthenia and Albania:
https://b.radikal.ru/b18/2002/ee/52445633f951.png (https://radikal.ru)

https://indo-european.eu/maps/haplogroup-e-m96/

Kelmendasi
02-22-2020, 07:16 PM
Local E-V13 maximum in Ruthenia and Albania:
https://b.radikal.ru/b18/2002/ee/52445633f951.png (https://radikal.ru)

https://indo-european.eu/maps/haplogroup-e-m96/
I really don't know what source he is basing this on. I checked the source that was linked https://genomebiology.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s13059-018-1393-5#Sec2, however the frequency of E-V13 in modern day populations isn't given. The only study on the Ruthenians or Rusyns that I have come across is the one from 2014 on Rusyns from Vojvodina, Serbia. The study showed that ~12.5% (25/200) of the samples were V13+ https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007%2Fs00414-013-0877-9.

Tz85
02-22-2020, 10:02 PM
Pasiegos from Cantabria have the highest % of E-M35 at 42.9%, followed by Albanians at 33.3%

Kelmendasi
02-22-2020, 10:09 PM
Pasiegos from Cantabria have the highest % of E-M35 at 42.9%, followed by Albanians at 33.3%
Not sure if that counts as you're comparing the frequency of M35 in a nation/ethnic group to the frequency in a region. Certain regions of Albania/Albanian speaking areas should reach ~50% M35 or more.

Tz85
02-22-2020, 10:44 PM
Not sure if that counts as you're comparing the frequency of M35 in a nation/ethnic group to the frequency in a region. Certain regions of Albania/Albanian speaking areas should reach ~50% M35 or more.

The question was which European People have the highest % of E-M35. I answered that.

Kelmendasi
02-22-2020, 10:55 PM
The question was which European People have the highest % of E-M35. I answered that.
Yeah, but don't the people from that region still classify as Spaniards? Sure there may be regional differences, but as far as I know they aren't a separate ethnic group. I could be wrong though.

Anyways, where did you get that figure from? I found a paper in relation to the Pasiegos region (and other Cantabrians) though I don't see where it mentions that M35 is at ~43%. https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/202d/1b84db3098f8ebed93e1108579e6f4298392.pdf?_ga=2.669 12686.1222218300.1582411872-1415499.1573156764.

Tz85
02-23-2020, 02:38 AM
Yeah, but don't the people from that region still classify as Spaniards? Sure there may be regional differences, but as far as I know they aren't a separate ethnic group. I could be wrong though.

Anyways, where did you get that figure from? I found a paper in relation to the Pasiegos region (and other Cantabrians) though I don't see where it mentions that M35 is at ~43%. https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/202d/1b84db3098f8ebed93e1108579e6f4298392.pdf?_ga=2.669 12686.1222218300.1582411872-1415499.1573156764.

http://gbe.oxfordjournals.org/content/early/2015/06/23/gbe.evv118.short?rss=1

Hawk
02-23-2020, 05:26 AM
The question was which European People have the highest % of E-M35. I answered that.

In that case Peloponessian Greeks have 47.5%, the highest among everyone.

hartaisarlag
11-01-2020, 10:38 PM
As Johane Derite said, it's a project which tests people through FTDNA and YSEQ. The project has reached 815 members so far.

The E-Y4972 guys tested with YSEQ, they are both from the area of Kukes in Northeastern Albania. When would you say this group reached the Balkans? I see that it has a TMRCA of 5,500ybp and there are some basal clades in Southern Europe (1 Greek from Ioannina also)

I see a Kosovo flag at the E-Y4972 level at FTDNA. Is it one of these guys? Or if not, any intel?

Farroukh
01-10-2021, 11:14 AM
Pasiego people of Spain has ~41% of E-M81

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/40032418_The_Andalusian_population_from_Huelva_rev eals_a_high_diversification_of_Y-DNA_paternal_lineages_from_haplogroup_E_Identifyin g_human_male_movements_within_the_Mediterranean_sp ace

Moriscos or pre-historical settlers? No subclades, no ideas