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Ilgar
08-24-2019, 09:46 AM
Hi everyone. I've just registered here. Recently I ordered Ydna 67 test from FTDNA and result turn out as J M267. Although it says that this is predicted some group admins told me that my haplogroup is J1 P58 and exclusively semitic))
My ancestors came from ancient Irevan khanate's capital city Irevan ( today Yerevan) and we all consider us Azerbaijanis- Turcomans. Furthermore Ftdna shows one match (12 gen 80-90% match) in Saudia who suprisingly told me that their village was Turkmen village from north palestine though they are assimilated nowadays but were called Arab Al Turkmen in 19-20th century. So I ordered Big Y test to get precise results and hoping that some new matches may turn out. But I still wonder how we can have rarest haplogroup among turkic people? I cant even find someone turkic besides us with j1p58. And btw, that man from saudia suprisingly looks like to my father and grandfather.

Ilgar
08-24-2019, 09:51 AM
I always though that I would be Q-M242 or somewhat N or R1a/R1b but life is full of surprises as you see :)

RCO
08-24-2019, 09:22 PM
Probably J1 P58 was born around that region, Azerbaijan, Armenia, Northern Iraq. Big Y will show your specific subgroup.

Ilgar
08-25-2019, 10:31 AM
I will attach mine Y-STR results for interpretation or research given that results are altmost the rarest among turkic and caucasian people.

32690

Ilgar
08-25-2019, 10:48 AM
Probably J1 P58 was born around that region, Azerbaijan, Armenia, Northern Iraq. Big Y will show your specific subgroup.

Most of researchers point south of Arabian peninsula as a origin of P58 since it is mainly dominant there although a few percentages we can encounter amoung caucasian circassians or avars. And probably it is found there due to islamic expansion I guess.

Agamemnon
08-25-2019, 01:50 PM
P58 is unlikely to have originated in Southern Arabia (or even Northern Arabia for that matter), RCO is right in pointing out that it probably originated in the northern part of the Fertile Crescent and the South Caucasus, I personally think Mesopotamia is the most likely contender but this is just an educated guess.

That being said, I do not think your paternal line stayed put in the South Caucasus for the last ~8,500 years. Going off your STR results, you're probably Z640 or YSC76 (less likely), both of which are present in Armenia. If so, your paternal ancestors arrived in the South Caucasus during the Bronze Age (or later) possibly with a NW Semitic-speaking group. If not, definitely L858 either way (and possibly FGC11, an Arabian origin would become a possibility).

levantino II
08-25-2019, 02:38 PM
First, congratulations on the result. Second, as I can see, You have close match with Azerbaijani from Ganja. Both of you are on the last page of J1 project

Agamemnon
08-25-2019, 03:09 PM
First, congratulations on the result. Second, as I can see, You have close match with Azerbaijani from Ganja. Both of you are on the last page of J1 project

He's also close to a Bahraini sample (Al-Ekri) under YSC76>FGC15940, this individual is on YFull (see here (https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-ZS5563/)).

Ilgar
08-25-2019, 03:38 PM
First, congratulations on the result. Second, as I can see, You have close match with Azerbaijani from Ganja. Both of you are on the last page of J1 project

Thank you.Yeah I've seen his results on the project page. I wonder provided he is a close match to me then why FTDNA gives only one palestine turkmen as a match ( 37 markers). Btw, he is J-ZS1706.

Ilgar
08-25-2019, 03:45 PM
And one more question gents, should I have same exact haplogroup and markers with someone to descend from same ancestor before 500-1000 years?

Afshar
08-25-2019, 03:56 PM
Do you know which tribe you are from? Might be helpful.

levantino II
08-25-2019, 04:36 PM
And one more question gents, should I have same exact haplogroup and markers with someone to descend from same ancestor before 500-1000 years?

On 37 markers for 500 years you could have exact match, even I doubt. For 1000 years definitely not. It's just matter of variability for some STRs in particular branch what difference it should be.

levantino II
08-25-2019, 04:47 PM
I always though that I would be Q-M242 or somewhat N or R1a/R1b but life is full of surprises as you see :)

Well I had the same feeling when I get test result;) J1 is not very frequent in Serbian people from ex-Yugoslavia. Before test I also thought about some of constitutional haplogroups of Serbian people like I2a1b, R1a or E1b. Because of some old people tales I believe that I will be E1b. So I can imagine your surprise.

Ilgar
08-25-2019, 06:58 PM
Do you know which tribe you are from? Might be helpful.

Yox qardaş bilmirəm. Bildiyim odurki İrəvan şəhərindənik.
I know that my grandfather from 7th gen was Turcoman. Though I ordered some research work to investigate my roots in national archive after getting J1 P58 :biggrin1:

RCO
08-25-2019, 11:08 PM
J1 is a fantastic haplogroup full of ethnic diversity just like all other major haplogroups.

Ilgar
08-26-2019, 10:44 AM
J1 is a fantastic haplogroup full of ethnic diversity just like all other major haplogroups.

Yeah, unless we all descend from middle ages arabic merchants/warriors :confused:

RCO
08-26-2019, 06:04 PM
We can observe J1 YFull tree and FTDNA SNP blocks and we can generally observe J1 ethnohistorical groups and clusters pretty well organized and defined in different regions, languages, religions, ethnicites, nationalities and frontiers in the last 15000 years !

DMXX
08-26-2019, 07:41 PM
Xoş galmişsiniz qardaşam!

Y-DNA J1 appears to have some antiquity in the Caucasus region, based on Wang et al. 2019, where it was found in at least one of the Bronze Age samples from one of the Maykop settlements. Further, at least one J1 was found in an Alan remain from the North Caucasus in 2017-2018. Both of these timepoints clearly precede the Medieval period.

J1 was also the subclade of the Qajar dynasty. Whether J1 was representative of the Qajar tribe itself (and not merely the Qoyunlu's) is an open question. Given the location of your ancestor, I'd posit that your line could be shared with them.

Ilgar
08-27-2019, 02:17 AM
Xoş galmişsiniz qardaşam!

Y-DNA J1 appears to have some antiquity in the Caucasus region, based on Wang et al. 2019, where it was found in at least one of the Bronze Age samples from one of the Maykop settlements. Further, at least one J1 was found in an Alan remain from the North Caucasus in 2017-2018. Both of these timepoints clearly precede the Medieval period.

J1 was also the subclade of the Qajar dynasty. Whether J1 was representative of the Qajar tribe itself (and not merely the Qoyunlu's) is an open question. Given the location of your ancestor, I'd posit that your line could be shared with them.

Təşəkkrlər qardaş!

Well, obviously Qajars have different cluster than mine, they belong to J1- Z1842 which is prominent in Caucasia but not J1 P58. Though I'll try to figure out my tribe during 1-2 month intensive archive reseaech.

Tltos
08-27-2019, 03:47 AM
I always though that I would be Q-M242 or somewhat N or R1a/R1b but life is full of surprises as you see :)

Congratulations on your result! When it came to testing my maternal grandfather's line I thought it would belong to YDNA E, then I thought maybe G. Then when it came time to test, I thought I really have no idea...and the line ended up belonging to J1 too. :) My budget only allowed me to order the SNP Pack to further test, and my cousin is J-ZS1711. I had initially tested just the 37 markers. He has no matches there, you are his match on the 12 at GD of 1. On 37 markers you are a GD of 10. On the Y Full tree there is a man from Saudi Arabia who is J-ZS1711*. Others that were once listed there as ZS1711 moved downstream to the J-ZS1706 SNP, but my cousin is negative for that one.

I have been able to find a man with an Italian surname who is J-ZS1711, but he has origin listed as unknown. My maternal grandfather's family are Albanian Italians. Anyway that other J-ZS1711 is GD of 13 on the 37 marker! I don't care too much for STRs, SNP testing is the way to go. I suppose once we start comparing 700 STRs to SNPs they might make more sense. I saw it in the Jewish Q1b branch that you couldn't rely on the STRs to really determine which specific SNP you would be as there was lots of convergence.

Can't wait to hear how your Big Y results turn out. It would be cool if your are J-ZS1711 too. :)

Ilgar
08-27-2019, 08:24 AM
Congratulations on your result! When it came to testing my maternal grandfather's line I thought it would belong to YDNA E, then I thought maybe G. Then when it came time to test, I thought I really have no idea...and the line ended up belonging to J1 too. :) My budget only allowed me to order the SNP Pack to further test, and my cousin is J-ZS1711. I had initially tested just the 37 markers. He has no matches there, you are his match on the 12 at GD of 1. On 37 markers you are a GD of 10. On the Y Full tree there is a man from Saudi Arabia who is J-ZS1711*. Others that were once listed there as ZS1711 moved downstream to the J-ZS1706 SNP, but my cousin is negative for that one.

I have been able to find a man with an Italian surname who is J-ZS1711, but he has origin listed as unknown. My maternal grandfather's family are Albanian Italians. Anyway that other J-ZS1711 is GD of 13 on the 37 marker! I don't care too much for STRs, SNP testing is the way to go. I suppose once we start comparing 700 STRs to SNPs they might make more sense. I saw it in the Jewish Q1b branch that you couldn't rely on the STRs to really determine which specific SNP you would be as there was lots of convergence.

Can't wait to hear how your Big Y results turn out. It would be cool if your are J-ZS1711 too. :)

Hi there ! Thanks for reaching out :)
Has your cousin been tested via Ftdna? Cause I can't see any match other than Palestinian assimilated (from occupied Al mansi village, Arab al Turkmen tribe) Turkoman on 37 markers and he is JS1706. Ftdna TIP report function shows that the probability that he and I shared same ancestor at 12th generation is 80% , 16th gen 93% and so on. I wonder how did you get that matching results.

Tltos
08-27-2019, 06:33 PM
Hi there ! Thanks for reaching out :)
Has your cousin been tested via Ftdna? Cause I can't see any match other than Palestinian assimilated (from occupied Al mansi village, Arab al Turkmen tribe) Turkoman on 37 markers and he is JS1706. Ftdna TIP report function shows that the probability that he and I shared same ancestor at 12th generation is 80% , 16th gen 93% and so on. I wonder how did you get that matching results.

Hi Ilgar! You are welcome. I compared your STRs to my cousin's STRs. He also tested at FTDNA. He has no matches at the 37 marker level. You guys are close only at the 12 marker with a GD of 1. Again it could mean something or could mean nothing. A match that my brother has with SNP results of Q-BZ68 does not even show up at any level. Then you have cases were you think some of these Q1b guys will match, but then one belongs to one branch of Q-Y2200, such as Q-YP1003- then the other match will actually belong on the Q-Y2197 branch of the Y2200 tree.

So by checking and comparing in projects to see how close someone might possibly be is the only way to maybe see who you might match. It's easier for a project admin to look for this in GAP than to do it on your own. Ideally all the men would have done a Big Y to get a better idea of true matches. So far they have my cousin in the J1 project 1711 cluster D. They grouped him with another guy who I think is pretty far off from him at a GD of 8 or 9 if I'm remembering correctly for the 37 marker.

Yaroslav
08-29-2019, 10:49 AM
Ilgar congratulations with the results!

Generally the descendants of the Khalifate period Arabs have a lot of Arab matches on their 12, 37 and 67 markers since the Arabs are quite well represented in the FTDNA data base. J1-P58 people from the Transcaucasia usually have the most recent common ancestors with the Arabs and Jews ~3000-4000 years ago.

If you have not joined yet I would like to invite you to join the Azerbaijan FTDNA project (https://www.familytreedna.com/my/group-join?group=Azerbaijan&). Its administrator Akper Aliev is a good friend of mine :)

Ilgar
08-29-2019, 03:29 PM
Ilgar congratulations with the results!

Generally the descendants of the Khalifate period Arabs have a lot of Arab matches on their 12, 37 and 67 markers since the Arabs are quite well represented in the FTDNA data base. J1-P58 people from the Transcaucasia usually have the most recent common ancestors with the Arabs and Jews ~3000-4000 years ago.

If you have not joined yet I would like to invite you to join the Azerbaijan FTDNA project (https://www.familytreedna.com/my/group-join?group=Azerbaijan&). Its administrator Akper Aliev is a good friend of mine :)

Thanks Yaroslav! Yeah I've joined the project from the very first days, my account IN69526.

Thus, you believe that J1 P58 migrated to caucasia 3000-4000 YBP ?
I really wonder whether is it possible that in some period J1 migrated in central asia and back migrated to caucasia as Oguz Turks ? There is well documented historical case of mass deportation of all population of Irevan in 1605 by Safevid Shah Abbas I to inner persia. Afterwards Safevids settled various oghuz turkic tribes there from central asia and iran and most probably my ancestor was among those new settlers.

I guess here we lack Oghuz Turkic Y Dna data from iran (beside turkmens) to trace our ancestors or find new ethnic and genetical matches.. As you said there is thousand of samples from arabic people unlike central asian or iranian oghuz turks.

Farroukh
08-30-2019, 06:46 AM
Dear İlgar,
Try to order BigY700 and then Yfull interpretation. J-P58 haplotypes have many fantom matches from different P58's downstreams.
Are you the descendant of an Arab or not?
BigY700+Yfull will do it clear.

Ilgar
08-30-2019, 01:19 PM
Dear İlgar,
Try to order BigY700 and then Yfull interpretation. J-P58 haplotypes have many fantom matches from different P58's downstreams.
Are you the descendant of an Arab or not?
BigY700+Yfull will do it clear.

Salam qardaş!
Yeah I've ordered the Big Y when I got J1 P58 to shed the light on my precise DNA history. And moreover, just in case ordered autosomal dna test today, so I'll share them here once I get results.

asm
08-30-2019, 10:28 PM
Hi everyone. I've just registered here. Recently I ordered Ydna 67 test from FTDNA and result turn out as J M267. Although it says that this is predicted some group admins told me that my haplogroup is J1 P58 and exclusively semitic))
My ancestors came from ancient Irevan khanate's capital city Irevan ( today Yerevan) and we all consider us Azerbaijanis- Turcomans. Furthermore Ftdna shows one match (12 gen 80-90% match) in Saudia who suprisingly told me that their village was Turkmen village from north palestine though they are assimilated nowadays but were called Arab Al Turkmen in 19-20th century. So I ordered Big Y test to get precise results and hoping that some new matches may turn out. But I still wonder how we can have rarest haplogroup among turkic people? I cant even find someone turkic besides us with j1p58. And btw, that man from saudia suprisingly looks like to my father and grandfather.

Even today's Turkmens (from Turkmenistan) seem very diverse according to Gedmatch results.Some of them have Iranic (from very ancient or recent times) and Near Eastern mixtures.

Farroukh
09-01-2019, 03:08 AM
Qardaş salam! Xoş gəlmisən!
Dear İlgar,
Have your clan so called "Sayyed ancestry" legend?
In Azerbaijan in many cases local "Sayyed" dynasties have Arabian ancestry (E-M35, J1-P58 and so on).
Your BigY will be very interesting. Let us keep in mind Nasimi's origin, who also was a Sayyed from Turcoman clan of Shirvan

asm
09-01-2019, 04:15 PM
Qardaş salam! Xoş gəlmisən!
Dear İlgar,
Have your clan so called "Sayyed ancestry" legend?
In Azerbaijan in many cases local "Sayyed" dynasties have Arabian ancestry (E-M35, J1-P58 and so on).
Your BigY will be very interesting. Let us keep in mind Nasimi's origin, who also was a Sayyed from Turcoman clan of Shirvan

Salam Farrux,

Then what does it mean?Are they Turcomans with Arabic origin in reality?

Ilgar
09-01-2019, 04:40 PM
Qardaş salam! Xoş gəlmisən!
Dear İlgar,
Have your clan so called "Sayyed ancestry" legend?
In Azerbaijan in many cases local "Sayyed" dynasties have Arabian ancestry (E-M35, J1-P58 and so on).
Your BigY will be very interesting. Let us keep in mind Nasimi's origin, who also was a Sayyed from Turcoman clan of Shirvan

oxsağolun Fərrux bəy!

Well, as far as I know we do not have any Sayyed legacy although I came to my mind as well :biggrin1: Here I imagine myself ending up as a arabic saint who always saw himself as a Turkic nomad :biggrin1:

Also, it has been already 10 days that we are carrying on Archive investigations, so maybe guys will figure out something new for me. And thanks for information about the greatest Turkic medieval poet.

Ilgar
09-01-2019, 05:10 PM
Salam Farrux,

Then what does it mean?Are they Turcomans with Arabic origin in reality?

Asm, Sayyids are people who decend from prophet Muhammed and his cousins etc. in islamic world. Despite most of them are fake sayyids some of them are real and descend from Islamic saints by patrilineal line. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sayyid
For example, Y DNA studies have been carried out among Indian Muslim people who self identified as a sayyid and it has been revealed that most of those people have haplogroups and subclades which have been prominent in subcontinent 3000-4000 YBP.

And in fact you can be called Sayyid even if you do not decend from prophet and his cousins but yet you have non-patrilineal relation to the arabic saints. So theoritically we may reveal Q-M242, N, J2, C, R if we analise Nasimi`s DNA even if he was real sayyid matrilineally.

asm
09-01-2019, 05:54 PM
Asm, Sayyids are people who decend from prophet Muhammed and his cousins etc. in islamic world. Despite most of them are fake sayyids some of them are real and descend from Islamic saints by patrilineal line. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sayyid
For example, Y DNA studies have been carried out among Indian Muslim people who self identified as a sayyid and it has been revealed that most of those people have haplogroups and subclades which have been prominent in subcontinent 3000-4000 YBP.

And in fact you can be called Sayyid even if you do not decend from prophet and his cousins but yet you have non-patrilineal relation to the arabic saints. So theoritically we may reveal Q-M242, N, J2, C, R if we analise Nasimi`s DNA even if he was real sayyid matrilineally.

I know.

If I'm not wrong this title can pass through mother too (not like Cohen in Jews).In this case,it's hard to determine this genetically.

rzak
09-03-2019, 01:02 AM
Sayyids (Sids) was actually a title given by Muslim rulers to prominent Jews in Andalus, and possibly in other locations.

asm
09-03-2019, 08:34 PM
Sayyids (Sids) was actually a title given by Muslim rulers to prominent Jews in Andalus, and possibly in other locations.

Interesting claim.Where did you get this information?

Ilgar
09-08-2019, 12:26 PM
So I got new 111 Str values today but remaining Big Y and autosomal results are pending still.
And the one match that I had , he is still match to me at 67 markers but not at 111, does it mean we are related?

33018

Afshar
09-08-2019, 12:40 PM
So I got new 111 Str values today but remaining Big Y and autosomal results are pending still.
And the one match that I had , he is still match to me at 67 markers but not at 111, does it mean we are related?

33018

It can mean that he either has not tested 111 markers, or that your relation is more distant

Ilgar
09-08-2019, 12:49 PM
It can mean that he either has not tested 111 markers, or that your relation is more distant

He has been tested for 111 markers.

Ilgar
10-04-2019, 04:36 AM
Hoho Gents and Lads :) Good news! We succesfully traced back my ancestors till circa 1550 in our national archive. Guess what? My all ancestors whithout any exceptions had written themselves as Kara Koyunlu Turkomans ( Black Sheep Turkomans). My ancestor who lived in ~1550 even had a Turkic name Kara Muhammed. ( Kara - black from ancient turkic) Black Sheep Turcomans had a ruler in 14th century with the same name. And later in russian empire again my ancestors were written as Tatars. Also, given the fact that I have a 67 marker 7th gen match with a Turkmen it becomes obvious that we shared same turkic ancestor with him. Honestly I will endeavour to follow up paper investigations as far as it is imposible though I think It was little pre arabic migration somewhat which which caused turkification in modern day Turkmenistan and later we came back as Oguz Turks. Nevertheless we will get more information once we get Big Y results. Btw, recently I got informed that Turkmens from Iran and Turkmenistan have 4-10% J1 P58.

asm
10-05-2019, 02:28 AM
Hoho Gents and Lads :) Good news! We succesfully traced back my ancestors till circa 1550 in our national archive. Guess what? My all ancestors whithout any exceptions had written themselves as Kara Koyunlu Turkomans ( Black Sheep Turkomans). My ancestor who lived in ~1550 even had a Turkic name Kara Muhammed. ( Kara - black from ancient turkic) Black Sheep Turcomans had a ruler in 14th century with the same name. And later in russian empire again my ancestors were written as Tatars. Also, given the fact that I have a 67 marker 7th gen match with a Turkmen it becomes obvious that we shared same turkic ancestor with him. Honestly I will endeavour to follow up paper investigations as far as it is imposible though I think It was little pre arabic migration somewhat which which caused turkification in modern day Turkmenistan and later we came back as Oguz Turks. Nevertheless we will get more information once we get Big Y results. Btw, recently I got informed that Turkmens from Iran and Turkmenistan have 4-10% J1 P58.

Oguzs who migrated from Turkmenistan mixed with local people.In this age,there is no pure Oguz Turk.

//Btw, recently I got informed that Turkmens from Iran and Turkmenistan have 4-10% J1 P58

From where we can get most authentic information about the Y-DNA haplogroups of today's Turkmens?Turkmenistan is closed country.Even,there is no any Turkmen DNA project.I've read that R1b among them is also high.However,as you know our haplogroup is one of the most widespread one and each R1b should examine his lineage seperately.
Another interesting fact is that non-existence of Q-M242 among Azeris comparing with its high presence among Turkmens.(?!)

Ilgar
10-05-2019, 03:16 AM
Oguzs who migrated from Turkmenistan mixed with local people.In this age,there is no pure Oguz Turk.

//Btw, recently I got informed that Turkmens from Iran and Turkmenistan have 4-10% J1 P58

From where we can get most authentic information about the Y-DNA haplogroups of today's Turkmens?Turkmenistan is closed country.Even,there is no any Turkmen DNA project.I've read that R1b among them is also high.However,as you know our haplogroup is one of the most widespread one and each R1b should examine his lineage seperately.
Another interesting fact is that non-existence of Q-M242 among Azeris comparing with its high presence among Turkmens.(?!)

Yeah agree that Oguz Turks had a mixed ancestty even from the beginning and yet they have mixed with local population of Turkmesnitan Startong from 8th Century when they created Turkic Oghuz Yabgu State.

Regarding the Turkmenistan haplogroups, this is damn true cause as you said it is a close country which even afraids of tourists.
Nonetheless, some amounts of them have been tested in various scientifict works including also Iranian Turkmens. And they had P58 though 5-10 percentages depending on region.

Turning to your Q M242 point, firstly I wouldnt say that Azerbaijanis do not have this Y DNA still we discover it, even 2 days before we got results of one person from Lenkoran and he is Q-M242 -L715 and we know that this is pure Hunnic / Gokturk "lineage" which is found today mostly in Asian Turks in Hungary and so on... Although it is true that so far Q has been discovered among Azerbaijanis about 2-3 % at max. Nearly same situation in Turkey Turks. Though as I mentioned these are not certain numbers cause Turkmenistan and Azerbaijani Turks have not been tested enough to draw a conclusion like in Anatolian Turks.

Ebizur
10-05-2019, 04:07 AM
Oguzs who migrated from Turkmenistan mixed with local people.In this age,there is no pure Oguz Turk.

//Btw, recently I got informed that Turkmens from Iran and Turkmenistan have 4-10% J1 P58

From where we can get most authentic information about the Y-DNA haplogroups of today's Turkmens?Turkmenistan is closed country.Even,there is no any Turkmen DNA project.I've read that R1b among them is also high.However,as you know our haplogroup is one of the most widespread one and each R1b should examine his lineage seperately.
Another interesting fact is that non-existence of Q-M242 among Azeris comparing with its high presence among Turkmens.(?!)I have not been able to determine a source for the claim of a high frequency of haplogroup R1b among Turkmens. I think this might have been mistakenly extrapolated from some early study's finding of P(xR1a) with high frequency in a sample of Turkmens.

Di Cristofaro et al. (2013) found Q-M25 in 23/74 = 31.1% of a sample of Turkmens from Jawzjan, Afghanistan. Karafet et al. (2018) found Q-M25 in 22/44 = 50.0% of a composite sample of Turkmens from Turkmenistan.

Di Cristofaro et al. (2013) found R1b1a1-M478/M73 in 1/74 = 1.4% and R1b1a1a2a-L23(xR1b1a1a2a1a-L11) in 1/74 = 1.4% for a total of 2/74 = 2.7% R1b in a sample of Turkmens from Jawzjan, Afghanistan. Karafet et al. (2018) found R1b-M73 in 1/44 = 2.3% and R1b1a1a2a-L23(xR1b1a1a2a1a-P311) in 1/44 = 2.3% for a total of 2/44 = 4.5% R1b in a composite sample of Turkmens from Turkmenistan. It appears that members of subclades of R1b that are typically observed in populations of the Volga-Ural region, Western Siberia, and Central Asia are present among contemporary Turkmens, too, but not in especially great numbers.

Di Cristofaro et al. (2013) found J1a2a1a2-P58/Page8/PF4698 in 6/74 = 8.1% of a sample of Turkmens from Jawzjan, Afghanistan. Karafet et al. (2018) found J1a2a1a2b-L147, which is a subclade of J1a2a1a2-P58/Page8/PF4698, in 2/44 = 4.5% of a composite sample of Turkmens from Turkmenistan. In addition, a singleton who belonged to J1-M267(xP58) was also observed among the sampled Turkmens in both studies, so not all J1 Turkmens belong to the P58 subclade.

Ilgar, do you know whether you are positive for L147.1/PF4883.1?

J Man
10-05-2019, 04:14 AM
I know that Y-DNA haplogroup J2a is present among many Turkic peoples as well. Some of the J2a among current Turkic peoples comes from Pre-Turkic inhabitants that were assimilated and some comes from true Turkic invaders I think. It depends on the sub-clade. Certain clades of J2a have been found among ancient Turkic samples such as the Karluks, Karakhanids and in Iron Age Altai.

Ebizur
10-05-2019, 04:50 PM
I know that Y-DNA haplogroup J2a is present among many Turkic peoples as well. Some of the J2a among current Turkic peoples comes from Pre-Turkic inhabitants that were assimilated and some comes from true Turkic invaders I think. It depends on the sub-clade. Certain clades of J2a have been found among ancient Turkic samples such as the Karluks, Karakhanids and in Iron Age Altai.Ashirbekov et al. (2017) found Y-DNA that was predicted to belong to J2a-M410 in 53/1294 = 4.10% of their samples of Kazakhs from Kazakhstan. However, this clade stands out among the Y-DNA haplogroups in the data set of Ashirbekov et al. for its being present as a minority haplogroup in many different Kazakh tribes rather than being concentrated in one particular tribe. It is possible that the researchers have simply failed to test members of a hypothetical Kazakh clan/subtribe among whom (some subclade of) J2a-M410 is the predominant Y-DNA haplogroup. In any case, these are the figures from the study by Ashirbekov et al. (2017):

J2a-M410 (pred.)
13/92 = 14.1% Jalair (a tribe of the Senior Jz or isins that predominantly inhabited areas in Almaty Region southeast of Lake Balkhash; their Oraqty clan inhabited some parts of neighboring Jambyl Region around the southern end of Lake Balkhash; the Jalairs predominantly belong to Y-DNA haplogroup C-M401 according to the same study, though they appear to be relatively diverse)
2/15 = 13.3% Shapyrashty (a tribe of the Senior Jz that inhabited some areas in the southwest of Almaty Region including the vicinity of Almaty and in central Jambyl Region; predominantly belong to C-M401)
3/30 = 10.0% Qozha (from a Persian title that means something like "master, lord"; used among Kazakhs to refer to an Islamic "master" or renowned teacher of religion or a member of a clan allegedly founded by such an individual)
16/191 = 8.4% Dulat (a tribe of the Senior Jz that inhabited much of the southern fringe of Kazakhstan, from the area of the modern city of Almaty in the east to the southern parts of Turkistan Region in the west; predominantly belong to C-M401)
3/42 = 7.1% miscellaneous other Kazakhs
3/86 = 3.5% Jetyru (a tribe of the Lesser Jz that inhabited many areas in western Kazakhstan and in Orenburg Oblast of Russia; predominantly belong to C-M86, but greater than 10% of the population belongs to each of E1b-M35, C-M401, and R1a-M198)
1/29 = 3.4% Qypshaq (a tribe of the Middle Jz that inhabited some areas in northern Kazakhstan and a large part of central Kazakhstan extending as far south as the Syr Darya; predominantly belong to R1b-M478)
5/155 = 3.2% Naiman (a tribe of the Middle Jz that was, like the Argyns, very widespread; they predominated among native inhabitants of East Kazakhstan Region, but they were also found in parts of Xinjiang, western Mongolia, Altai Republic, and central, northern, and southern Kazakhstan)
1/32 = 3.1% Sirgeli (a tribe of the Senior Jz that inhabited some areas in the central parts of Jambyl Region and Turkistan Region; predominantly belong to Y-DNA haplogroup N-M46)
1/40 = 2.5% Qangly (a tribe of the Senior Jz that inhabited some areas in the southeast of Almaty Region along the western flanks of the Suans and Albans; the Qanglys predominantly belong to Y-DNA haplogroup Q)
1/50 = 2.0% Argyn (a tribe of the Middle Jz; geographically, they are probably the most widespread of all the Kazakh tribes, ranging over most of central and northern Kazakhstan, including the vicinity of the national capital, Nur-Sultan/Astana; the Argyns predominantly belong to Y-DNA haplogroup G1-M285)
1/57 = 1.8% Ysty (a tribe of the Senior Jz that inhabited some areas in southern Kazakhstan between the lower reaches of the Ili River and the middle reaches of the Chu River and between the Syr River and the lower reaches of the Chu River; the Ysty inhabitants of the former area tended to belong predominantly to the Oyik clan, whereas the Ysty inhabitants of the latter area tended to belong predominantly to the Tilik clan; the Ystys are predominantly predicted to belong to Y-DNA haplogroup J1-M267, although significant percentages of them also may belong to R1b-M478 and O-M175(xO2-M122))
1/76 = 1.3% Baiuly (a tribe of the Lesser Jz or Alshyns that inhabited many areas in western Kazakhstan; predominantly belong to C-M86)
1/95 = 1.1% Qongyrat (a tribe of the Middle Jz that inhabited an area in central Turkistan Region in southern Kazakhstan; predominantly belong to C-M407)
1/122 = 0.8% Alimuly (a tribe of the Lesser Jz or Alshyns that inhabited Aktobe Region, the lower reaches of the Syr Darya, and what used to be the northern shores of the Aral Sea; predominantly belong to C-M86)
0/2 Shaqsham (2/2 C-M401)
0/3 Tolengit
0/4 Uaq
0/8 Sary-isin ("Yellow isin," a tribe of the Senior Jz that inhabited some southern parts of the Jambyl Region; predominantly belong to C-M401)
0/8 Tore (alleged Genghisids)
0/13 Shanyshqyly (predominantly belong to C-M401)
0/28 Kerey (a tribe of the Middle Jz that inhabited some areas in northern Kazakhstan, including an area north of the current national capital, and some areas in eastern Kazakhstan; predominantly belong to C-M401)
0/29 Oshaqty (a tribe of the Senior Jz that inhabited an area around the border between Jambyl Region and Turkistan Region; predominantly belong to C-M401 or R1a-M198)
0/41 Suan (a tribe of the Senior Jz that inhabited a part of southeastern Kazakhstan immediately north of the area inhabited by the Albans; the Suan tribe includes among others the Tokarstan clan, i.e. nominally "Tocharistani" Kazakhs; predominantly belong to C-M401 or R1a-M198)
0/46 Alban (a tribe of the Senior Jz that inhabited the southeastern corner of Almaty Region in the southeastern corner of Kazakhstan; predominantly belong to C-M401)

Ashirbekov et al. 2017 found predicted J2a-M410 with greatest frequency among their samples of the politically dominant tribes of the Senior Jz or isin from southern/southeastern Kazakhstan (Jalair, Shapyrashty, Dulat) and among the Qozhas. However, they did not observe any instance of this haplogroup in their samples of the Suans and Albans who inhabit the hilly margins of southeastern Kazakhstan.

However, some data that I have seen make me wonder whether members of J2a-M410 might have migrated into Central Asia at various times from some populous civilization in Southwest Asia, perhaps Persia. For example, Karafet et al. (2018) found a total of 5/44 = 11.4% J2a-M410 in their sample of Turkmens from Turkmenistan, but each individual belonged to a different subclade of J2a: 1/44 = 2.3% J2a-M410(xP354), 1/44 = 2.3% J2a-P354(xL27), 1/44 = 2.3% J2a1h2-L25(xJ2a1h2a1-L70), 1/44 = 2.3% J2a1a-M47/M322, 1/44 = 2.3% J2a1b1-M92. This is not what I would expect if there had been any tribal founder effect.

Ilgar
10-05-2019, 05:18 PM
Hey Ebizur ! I'm indeed grateful that you contrubute to our thread. Yeah it is common sense - it is impossible that every J1 Turkmens carries P58 subclade although as you mentioned they have it. I'm still waiting for full sequence Y DNA results so don't know which subclade I am positive for.

levantino II
10-05-2019, 06:08 PM
This is interesting. There is one PF7263 in Azerbaijan, Veliaga (unfortunately don't remember his surname) with not clear way of coming into Azerbaijan. I thought that he could be with Kurdish ancestry. Irony is that I know for one scientific paper about Iraq Y-DNA with some J1 PF7263 Turkmens but I never connected that he already could be Turkmen when he came into Azerbaijani highlands. This is the paper:"A glimpse at the intricate mosaic of ethnicities from Mesopotamia: Paternal lineages of the Northern Iraqi Arabs, Kurds, Syriacs, Turkmens and Yazidis" from 2017

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5669434/

STR values are in Table 1 and haplogroup predictions in Table 3. You should first check Table 3 for P58 (if I rember well there is 5-6 P58 haplotypes) and then serch in table 1 if they are close to you. If I can just add that one of predictors, NevGen is product of Serbian geneticists Aleksandar Nevski and Gentula:amen:

Ebizur
10-05-2019, 06:56 PM
I have not been able to determine a source for the claim of a high frequency of haplogroup R1b among Turkmens. I think this might have been mistakenly extrapolated from some early study's finding of P(xR1a) with high frequency in a sample of Turkmens.I think I have found it:

R. Spencer Wells, Nadira Yuldasheva, Ruslan Ruzibakiev, et al. (2001), "The Eurasian Heartland: A continental perspective on Y-chromosome diversity"

Turkmens from Turkmenistan
4/30 = 13.3% F-M89(xI-M170, J2-M172, H1a-M52, K-M9) [not significantly different from the total of G+J1 in the Turkmen samples of Di Cristofaro et al. 2013 and Karafet et al. 2018]
5/30 = 16.7% J2-M172 [about twice as high as the frequency of J2-M172 among Turkmens in Jawzjan, Afghanistan according to Di Cristofaro et al. 2013; not significantly different from the frequency of J2-M172 among Turkmens in Turkmenistan according to Karafet et al. 2018]
4/30 = 13.3% K-M9(xO-M175, L-M20, N-M46, P-M45) [these individuals may belong to N-P43, which may be more common among Turkmens in Turkmenistan than among Turkmens in Afghanistan]
3/30 = 10.0% P-M45(xQ-M120, Q-M3, R1-M173, R2a-M124) [significantly lower than the frequency of Q-M25 in the Turkmen samples of Di Cristofaro et al. 2013 and Karafet et al. 2018]
1/30 = 3.3% R2a-M124
11/30 = 36.7% R1-M173(xM17) [significantly higher than the total frequency of R1b in the Turkmen samples of Di Cristofaro et al. 2013 and Karafet et al. 2018]
2/30 = 6.7% R1a-M17(xM87) [less than half the frequency of R1a-M17 among Turkmens in Afghanistan according to Di Cristofaro et al. 2013]

Wells et al. (2001) also reported the results of analysis of the Y-DNA of a sample of Kurds from Turkmenistan:

6/17 = 35.3% F-M89(xI-M170, J2-M172, H1a-M52, K-M9)
3/17 = 17.6% J2-M172
1/17 = 5.9% H1a-M52
5/17 = 29.4% R1-M173(xM17)
2/17 = 11.8% R1a-M17(xM87)

It is difficult to make much of this difference with the Turkmen samples of Di Cristofaro et al. (2013) and Karafet et al. (2018) without having greater phylogenetic resolution regarding the R1-M173(xM17) Y-chromosomes in the Turkmen sample of Wells et al. (2001).

asm
10-05-2019, 10:32 PM
//Yeah agree that Oguz Turks had a mixed ancestty even from the beginning and yet they have mixed with local population of Turkmesnitan Startong from 8th Century when they created Turkic Oghuz Yabgu State.

By local people I mean local Caucasians and Anatolians.There is no use focusing only on Y-DNA tests.Autosomal DNA speaks for itself.atDNA of Azerbaijanis is not equal to Turkmens.Azeris definetely has native Caucasian, Iranian and Near Eastern mixture.Azeris get very high Med and Near Eastern components on Gedmatch calculators.

DMXX
10-06-2019, 12:08 AM
There likely are pockets of high Y-DNA Q among Azeris.

Haber et al. 2011 (from memory) found upwards of 11% of "West Iranians" carried Y-DNA Q (can't remember the subclade). Ostensibly, they were referring to Iranian Azeris. According to Grugni et al., 42.6% of Iranian Turkmen carry Q-M25.

As for Turkmen R1b, Grugni again found 4.3% of them had R1b-L23 (in keeping with the observed cline in Iran, where the frequency increases the further north and west one ventures). R1b-M73 wasn't observed in their cohort (n=68). In fact, R1b-M73 was only detected in a single individual of 938 (a Khorasani Persian).

The Turkmen Kurds that Ebizur's mentioned are the descendants of forcibly migrated individuals from the SE Turkey-NW Iran area several hundred years ago. Although Grugni et al. demonstrated no R1b-L23 among them, we know from other sources that this subclade is somewhat common among Kurdish-speaking groups.

Ilgar
11-01-2019, 01:01 PM
So gents. You can congratulate me :D
I am J-ZS1706! TMRCA 4200YBP I have a BIG Y match who is palestinian Turkmen from Banu al Saidan tribe.I have already contacted him and he approved it. We all 3 Turkmens share same ancestor probably 1000 YBP due to our markers. Furthermore, I have traced back my ancestors till 14th century and all of them are Qara Qoyunlu Turkomans. The most distant ancestor was Turkmen Emir Saad - Chieftain of Saadlu tribe, who was one of the founders of the Qara qoyunlu state. All region which was called Chukur Saad (Todays Armenian republic) belonged to him. This is the place where he was buried by his son - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mausoleum_of_Kara_Koyunlu_emirs.

Sure Tsar Russia and Iranian officials approved all this papers and I have their copies from archive that my ancestors descended from Emir Saad .

So any ideas? :)

Agamemnon
11-01-2019, 05:31 PM
So gents. You can congratulate me :D
I am J-ZS1706! TMRCA 4200YBP I have a BIG Y match who is palestinian Turkmen from Banu al Saidan tribe.I have already contacted him and he approved it. We all 3 Turkmens share same ancestor probably 1000 YBP due to our markers. Furthermore, I have traced back my ancestors till 14th century and all of them are Qara Qoyunlu Turkomans. The most distant ancestor was Turkmen Emir Saad - Chieftain of Saadlu tribe, who was one of the founders of the Qara qoyunlu state. All region which was called Chukur Saad (Todays Armenian republic) belonged to him. This is the place where he was buried by his son - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mausoleum_of_Kara_Koyunlu_emirs.

Sure Tsar Russia and Iranian officials approved all this papers and I have their copies from archive that my ancestors descended from Emir Saad .

So any ideas? :)

Not exactly a surprise, I could tell from your similarity to the Bahraini individual (Al-Ekri) that FGC15940 was one of the most convincing contenders. ZS1706 is a subclade of ZS1711, just like ZS5563 (Al-Ekri's branch). Judging from its overall distribution, ZS1711 seems to be prominent among Khaleeji Arabs, nevertheless considering the presence of Armenians as well as a specifically-Jewish branch under FGC15940, I would interpret this as sampling bias (which is quite common as Gulf Arabs are overrepresented). The recent Turkmen origin of your Palestinian Arab match lends further credence to this interpretation.

In fact, the TMRCA estimates (~4,200 yBP, 3,500 years old at the very least) make an Arabian origin even more uncertain. It's therefore likely your paternal ancestors were originally descended from one of Northern Mesopotamia's early NW Semitic populations, in all likeliness Amorites or Arameans, with a subsequent migration northwards in later times.

Ilgar
11-06-2019, 07:35 AM
New ZS1706 appeared on Yfull from Aleppo-Syria. Although I heavily tried to reach him out I could not find any information regarding him. Considering the fact that Turkmens are main minority it gets more and more interesting :)

Ilgar
12-06-2019, 05:14 PM
I have suprising news!

First - Yfull has completed batching my sample. Although I am still ZS1706 there I guess we need completion of Palestinian Turkmen`s ( YF66716 ) result to see changes. Furthermore I checked my SNP matches and I share 18 SNP downstream ZS1706. However, I share only 2 or 3 SNP with other ZS1706 matches.


Second - FTDNA changed or subclade and moved downstream to ZS7071 ! So far only Turkic people have been discovered among ZS 7071 carriers. ( 3 palestinians from Banu al Saidan tribe -Arab Al Turkmen tribe confederation)

Third - and for me the most serious. I have found some archive paper trail and as per those documents all those palestinians were moved from Ottoman Anatolia to palestine somewhere in 17-18 century most probably to strengthen Ottoman rule. So they have turkish ancestry.

Ilgar
12-18-2019, 12:06 PM
This is my family tree. We created this based on all archive papers that we could get so far. I have put archive reference numbers on right bottom corner on the picture.

35471

Ilgar
01-16-2020, 04:08 AM
35883

Finally yfull has finished age calculations. So for now our TMRCA is 1250 with palestinian turkman (banu saidan tribe) however we are waiting for big y results of another turkmen from that tribe who is our match at 67 markers. Thus there will be some changes, I guess +- 200 years once we upload his bam to yfull.

Ilgar
02-07-2020, 07:22 PM
Found one Karachay Turkic whose markers were close to mine at 12 level. So I had decided to upgrade him to Y37. Got results today - he has 9 marker difference with me at 37 level. However there is one karachay balkar turkic at his match list who has just 2 marker difference with him at 37 marker. So I checked markers of both individuals on nevgen.com and it predicts them as ZS1711! Wow this is paternal branch for ZS1706->ZS7071. Considering the fact that so far only turkic people observed on this subclade (ZS7071) I ordered SNP (ZS1706) test for that Karachay. If he is positive for ZS1706 I will probably order BIG Y for him. Who knows maybe one day I will find someone even from central steppe who is ZS7071 :D

Ilgar
02-12-2020, 07:10 PM
Found documents-paper trial from Iraqi archive which states that ancestors of my forefather ( Black Sheep Turkoman -Emir Saad- Chieftain of the Saadlu tribe) were noble Seljuk turks who came to the region from Central Asia- Balkh. We have all names till 12th century (The first name is Kara Sungur / Sungar Mutavvil Khan) and definitely going to do several big y tests and write a book about all these stuff.

Ilgar
02-19-2020, 08:37 AM
36429
Added my forefathers to my family tree which moved from Central Asia - Balkh as per Iraq State History Archive. They were noble Seljuk, later Turkoman rulers.

Ilgar
03-01-2020, 08:48 PM
So, we got results of second Palestinian turkmen from banu saedan tribe ( Yfull YF71933 ) https://yfull.com/tree/J-ZS1706/ . As expected he is my big y match. Although suprisingly he is closer to me than to the our other match from same tribe and same village -YF66716 (Al-mansi)
Keen to see emergence of new subclade (I share SNP with YF71933 - M4415 which YF66716 does not have) downstream ZS7071 and new age estimations. :)