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View Full Version : My K36 ancestral report and a question about Bedouin/Bedouin-like ancestry among Jews



passenger
08-26-2019, 10:49 PM
I just got my K36 ancestry report from LM Genetics and, while I know better than to take the population breakdown too literally, the presence of a "Saudi Arabian" percentage, plus a couple minute percentages from Red Sea adjacent populations (Amhara and Yemeni Jews) got me thinking about what I thought was a very odd 8.7% Tarabin (Bedouin) result that I got from ethnogene, which I chalked up to either genetic proximity between Bedouins and the ancient Levantine ancestors of modern Jews and perhaps some misreading of the usual small North African percentage I get (10% from MyHeritage, 3% from FTDNA and gencove). Bedouin does pop up on a number of different GEDmatch calcs, but again, I would assume that's just due to affinities between ancient ancestral populations.

My questions are, how common is it for those with Jewish ancestry to get percentages from ostensibly non-Levantine Arab populations and what do you attribute that to? Do other Jewish K36 reports show similar percentages? If so, how does that compare to estimates from other sites?

StillWater
08-26-2019, 11:25 PM
See if you can find such a report for a Lebanese Christian. If they don't get it, then it becomes interesting. Otherwise, chalk it up to population overlap/ancient southern ancestry in the Levant/you inheriting a disproportional amount of it. Also, Tarabins live in the Levant(Sinai and Negev). I also got Tarabin from Ethnogene. My mother scores 8.73% Arabian on K36, which is the highest I've seen for an Ashkenazi. The only Levantine result I can recall is of a Palestinian who scored between 10 and 11%. There are too many relevant variables, that it'll be too hard to explain it in any given case, unless that person scores an absurd amount.

passenger
08-27-2019, 03:28 AM
See if you can find such a report for a Lebanese Christian. If they don't get it, then it becomes interesting. Otherwise, chalk it up to population overlap/ancient southern ancestry in the Levant/you inheriting a disproportional amount of it. Also, Tarabins live in the Levant(Sinai and Negev). I also got Tarabin from Ethnogene. My mother scores 8.73% Arabian on K36, which is the highest I've seen for an Ashkenazi. The only Levantine result I can recall is of a Palestinian who scored between 10 and 11%. There are too many relevant variables, that it'll be too hard to explain it in any given case, unless that person scores an absurd amount.

I'd be really interested to see other K36 ancestral reports - Jewish, Lebanese Christian, Palestinian etc. - to compare, but I haven't come across any recent ones that have the population breakdown, just a few older versions for Jewish customers which have the oracle, but no breakdown. By all means if anyone has some, post them here!

About the Tarabin, I'm aware that they have inhabited the Negev and Sinai for many centuries, but my understanding is that all the Bedouin tribes were originally from deeper east and south into the Arabian peninsula, and that they only moved into the Levant after the rise of Islam. Perhaps they intermarried with other local Levantine populations, which could account for some of the overlap. Like you said though, there are a lot of variables involved.

chelle
09-11-2019, 11:34 PM
I wish mine all had the snazzy pie charts. I wonder if I could request updated ones. Here is my mom's report. She is also half. This is her K36 breakdown.

Amerindian -
Arabian 1.77
Armenian 1.93
Basque 3.61
Central_African -
Central_Euro 5.35
East_African -
East_Asian -
East_Balkan 4.38
East_Central_Asian -
East_Central_Euro 4.88
East_Med 9.12
Eastern_Euro 1.30
Fennoscandian 2.50
French 4.39
Iberian 17.74
Indo-Chinese -
Italian 9.35
Malayan -
Near_Eastern -
North_African 2.55
North_Atlantic 8.45
North_Caucasian 5.24
North_Sea 7.92
Northeast_African 1.53
Oceanian -
Omotic -
Pygmy -
Siberian -
South_Asian -
South_Central_Asian -
South_Chinese -
Volga-Ural 2.20
West_African 0.34
West_Caucasian 1.07
West_Med 4.34
33070330713307233073

passenger
09-12-2019, 01:24 AM
I wish mine all had the snazzy pie charts. I wonder if I could request updated ones. Here is my mom's report. She is also half. This is her K36 breakdown.

Amerindian -
Arabian 1.77
Armenian 1.93
Basque 3.61
Central_African -
Central_Euro 5.35
East_African -
East_Asian -
East_Balkan 4.38
East_Central_Asian -
East_Central_Euro 4.88
East_Med 9.12
Eastern_Euro 1.30
Fennoscandian 2.50
French 4.39
Iberian 17.74
Indo-Chinese -
Italian 9.35
Malayan -
Near_Eastern -
North_African 2.55
North_Atlantic 8.45
North_Caucasian 5.24
North_Sea 7.92
Northeast_African 1.53
Oceanian -
Omotic -
Pygmy -
Siberian -
South_Asian -
South_Central_Asian -
South_Chinese -
Volga-Ural 2.20
West_African 0.34
West_Caucasian 1.07
West_Med 4.34
33070330713307233073

You can always ask, but I'm not sure he'd do it for free, especially since he seems pretty busy these days. Yeah, I like the upgrades he's made in terms of the visuals. I don't know if the estimates are any more accurate, but maybe more detailed.

What's the rest of your mom's background, besides Ashkenazi? Her Iberian percentage seems quite high. In terms of MENA, her North and Northeast African seem relatively high, but the Arabian is low and it's odd she has no Near Eastern. I'm just judging from the few other examples I've seen though. Still haven't come across that many Jewish K36 results.

chelle
09-12-2019, 02:12 AM
You can always ask, but I'm not sure he'd do it for free, especially since he seems pretty busy these days. Yeah, I like the upgrades he's made in terms of the visuals. I don't know if the estimates are any more accurate, but maybe more detailed.

What's the rest of your mom's background, besides Ashkenazi? Her Iberian percentage seems quite high. In terms of MENA, her North and Northeast African seem relatively high, but the Arabian is low and it's odd she has no Near Eastern. I'm just judging from the few other examples I've seen though. Still haven't come across that many Jewish K36 results.

I thought that too about the near east. Her results seem to vary so much depending on the calculator. Some list North African, Spanish, Italian, etc. Then her Ethogene report finally came in and has me completely confused with how much it shows for Persian Jewish influence. I can add her 24 Genetics report and some YourDnaPortal results if you want. As for her background, maternal is Russian-Jewish and paternal is I believe mostly a mix of British with a bit of French, German and Netherlands and a pinch of West African. I have had a hard time finding the exact background on many of my Grandpa's side since they have been in the states since at least 1700's and moved state to state. I wish I could get my hands on a relatives raw data that was 100 Jewish to see how different the results would be compared to my mom's. Here is part of her 24 genetics report, FTDNA kit transfer and her 23andme. The trace amount on that is various west African and 0.1 NA/EA it used to say Yakut before the last update. 33075330763307733078

chelle
09-12-2019, 02:41 AM
Her K13 YourDnaPortal


Population
Percentage
North_Atlantic
32.05%
Baltic
16.77%
West Mediterranean
19.51%
West Asian
5.23%
East Mediterranean
18.54%
Red Sea
3.66%
South Asian
0.12%
East Asian
0.00%
Siberian
1.48%
Amerindian
0.03%
Oceanian
0.43%
Northeast African
0.00%
Sub-Saharan
2.18%


Closest population distances
Population
Distance
North_Italian
0.8606842
Portuguese
1.1784405
Tuscan
1.198046
Romanian
1.3006222
Spanish_Galicia
1.3015686


Population
Value
North_Italian
37.2
Portuguese
4.2
Tuscan
4.2
Romanian
3.4
Spanish_Valencia
3.4
Serbian
3
Spanish_Murcia
3
Spanish_Cataluna
2.2
French
2
West_German
1.8
East_German
1.6
Bedouin
1.4
Swedish
1.4
Austrian
1.2
Croatian
1.2
Danish
1.2
South_Dutch
1.2
Southwest_English
1.2
Southwest_Finnish
1.2
Greek_Thessaly
1
Libyan_Jew
1
Southeast_English
1
Bulgarian
0.8
Lebanese_Druze
0.8
Mozabite_Berber
0.8
North_German
0.8
West_Scottish
0.8
West_Sicilian
0.8
Algerian_Jew
0.6
Ashkenazi
0.6
Icelandic
0.6
Italian_Jew
0.6
North_Dutch
0.6
North_Swedish
0.6
Orcadian
0.6
Samaritan
0.6
Sephardic_Jew
0.6
Tunisian
0.6
Yemenite_Jew
0.6
Algerian
0.4
Belorussian
0.4
East_Finnish
0.4
Egyptian
0.4
Estonian
0.4
Hungarian
0.4
Jordanian
0.4
La_Brana-1
0.4
Loschbour
0.4
Motala12
0.4
Norwegian
0.4
Palestinian
0.4
Saami_Finland
0.4
Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon
0.4
Tunisian_Jew
0.4
Ukrainian_Belgorod
0.4
East_Sicilian
0.2
Erzya
0.2
Finnish
0.2
Kargopol_Russian
0.2
Ket
0.2
Koryak
0.2
Lithuanian
0.2
Mbuti_Pygmy
0.2
Moroccan
0.2
Polish
0.2
Russian_Smolensk
0.2
South_Italian
0.2
Spanish_Galicia
0.2
Ukrainian
0.2
Ukrainian_Lviv
0.2
Yoruban
0.2


Her AncientNearEast YourDnaPortal

Population
Percentage
Southeast Asian
0.00%
Anatolia Neolithic
17.54%
CHG-EEF
38.41%
Polar
0.00%
EHG
13.69%
Sub-Saharan
0.85%
Iran-Neolithic
6.38%
Karitiana
0.00%
Ancestral-Indian
0.00%
Natufian
9.99%
Siberian
3.02%
Papuan
0.00%
SHG-WHG
10.13%
Closest population distances
Population
Distance
Bulgarian
0.5162761
Romanian
0.6363073
Albanian
0.895076

Population
Value
Bulgarian
40.8
Albanian
6
French
5
Croatian
4
Hungarian
3.8
English
3.6
Europe_LNBA
3
Sicilian
2.6
Scottish
2.2
Estonian
2
Icelandic
2
Finnish
1.8
Russian
1.8
Stuttgart
1.8
Czech
1.4
Norwegian
1.4
Jew_Ashkenazi
1.2
Jew_Moroccan
1.2
Jew_Libyan
1
Jew_Tunisian
1
Nogai
1
Steppe_MLBA
0.8
Algerian
0.6
Anatolia_ChL
0.6
BedouinA
0.6
Cypriot
0.6
Egyptian
0.6
Jordanian
0.6
Turkish
0.6
Druze
0.4
Europe_EN
0.4
Lebanese
0.4
Lithuanian
0.4
MA1
0.4
Mansi
0.4
Moroccan
0.4
Natufian
0.4
Sardinian
0.4
Turkish_Aydin
0.4
Anatolia_N
0.2
EHG
0.2
Japanese
0.2
Jew_Yemenite
0.2
Levant_N
0.2
Nganasan
0.2
Saudi
0.2
Steppe_Eneolithic
0.2
Syrian
0.2
Turkmen
0.2
Ukrainian
0.2
Uygur
0.2


What are some of your DNA portal calculator results? I would love to compare.

StillWater
09-12-2019, 02:57 AM
Her K13 YourDnaPortal


Population
Percentage
North_Atlantic
32.05%
Baltic
16.77%
West Mediterranean
19.51%
West Asian
5.23%
East Mediterranean
18.54%
Red Sea
3.66%
South Asian
0.12%
East Asian
0.00%
Siberian
1.48%
Amerindian
0.03%
Oceanian
0.43%
Northeast African
0.00%
Sub-Saharan
2.18%


Closest population distances
Population
Distance
North_Italian
0.8606842
Portuguese
1.1784405
Tuscan
1.198046
Romanian
1.3006222
Spanish_Galicia
1.3015686


Population
Value
North_Italian
37.2
Portuguese
4.2
Tuscan
4.2
Romanian
3.4
Spanish_Valencia
3.4
Serbian
3
Spanish_Murcia
3
Spanish_Cataluna
2.2
French
2
West_German
1.8
East_German
1.6
Bedouin
1.4
Swedish
1.4
Austrian
1.2
Croatian
1.2
Danish
1.2
South_Dutch
1.2
Southwest_English
1.2
Southwest_Finnish
1.2
Greek_Thessaly
1
Libyan_Jew
1
Southeast_English
1
Bulgarian
0.8
Lebanese_Druze
0.8
Mozabite_Berber
0.8
North_German
0.8
West_Scottish
0.8
West_Sicilian
0.8
Algerian_Jew
0.6
Ashkenazi
0.6
Icelandic
0.6
Italian_Jew
0.6
North_Dutch
0.6
North_Swedish
0.6
Orcadian
0.6
Samaritan
0.6
Sephardic_Jew
0.6
Tunisian
0.6
Yemenite_Jew
0.6
Algerian
0.4
Belorussian
0.4
East_Finnish
0.4
Egyptian
0.4
Estonian
0.4
Hungarian
0.4
Jordanian
0.4
La_Brana-1
0.4
Loschbour
0.4
Motala12
0.4
Norwegian
0.4
Palestinian
0.4
Saami_Finland
0.4
Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon
0.4
Tunisian_Jew
0.4
Ukrainian_Belgorod
0.4
East_Sicilian
0.2
Erzya
0.2
Finnish
0.2
Kargopol_Russian
0.2
Ket
0.2
Koryak
0.2
Lithuanian
0.2
Mbuti_Pygmy
0.2
Moroccan
0.2
Polish
0.2
Russian_Smolensk
0.2
South_Italian
0.2
Spanish_Galicia
0.2
Ukrainian
0.2
Ukrainian_Lviv
0.2
Yoruban
0.2


Her AncientNearEast YourDnaPortal

Population
Percentage
Southeast Asian
0.00%
Anatolia Neolithic
17.54%
CHG-EEF
38.41%
Polar
0.00%
EHG
13.69%
Sub-Saharan
0.85%
Iran-Neolithic
6.38%
Karitiana
0.00%
Ancestral-Indian
0.00%
Natufian
9.99%
Siberian
3.02%
Papuan
0.00%
SHG-WHG
10.13%
Closest population distances
Population
Distance
Bulgarian
0.5162761
Romanian
0.6363073
Albanian
0.895076

Population
Value
Bulgarian
40.8
Albanian
6
French
5
Croatian
4
Hungarian
3.8
English
3.6
Europe_LNBA
3
Sicilian
2.6
Scottish
2.2
Estonian
2
Icelandic
2
Finnish
1.8
Russian
1.8
Stuttgart
1.8
Czech
1.4
Norwegian
1.4
Jew_Ashkenazi
1.2
Jew_Moroccan
1.2
Jew_Libyan
1
Jew_Tunisian
1
Nogai
1
Steppe_MLBA
0.8
Algerian
0.6
Anatolia_ChL
0.6
BedouinA
0.6
Cypriot
0.6
Egyptian
0.6
Jordanian
0.6
Turkish
0.6
Druze
0.4
Europe_EN
0.4
Lebanese
0.4
Lithuanian
0.4
MA1
0.4
Mansi
0.4
Moroccan
0.4
Natufian
0.4
Sardinian
0.4
Turkish_Aydin
0.4
Anatolia_N
0.2
EHG
0.2
Japanese
0.2
Jew_Yemenite
0.2
Levant_N
0.2
Nganasan
0.2
Saudi
0.2
Steppe_Eneolithic
0.2
Syrian
0.2
Turkmen
0.2
Ukrainian
0.2
Uygur
0.2


What are some of your DNA portal calculator results? I would love to compare.

Is that Eurogenes K13? Her SSA certainly sticks out. Highest Ashkenazi score I've seen was 1.7

chelle
09-12-2019, 03:07 AM
Yes, it it the Eurogene K13 on Your DNA Portal. I think it is from a couple of 4th great grandfathers in her dad's side that were from the Carolinas. Both were listed as free colored on census records. She usually gets North African, SSA or sometimes a minor amount of each on tests.

bejewelled
09-12-2019, 11:34 PM
I'm 100% AJ. Here's mine,
https://drive.google.com/open?id=12N2u9rsNcyXtr26RdtZ1mt0K21MBCW98

StillWater
09-12-2019, 11:51 PM
I'm 100% AJ. Here's mine,
https://drive.google.com/open?id=12N2u9rsNcyXtr26RdtZ1mt0K21MBCW98

Only the cover shows up. nvm works now

passenger
09-13-2019, 02:14 AM
I'm 100% AJ. Here's mine,
https://drive.google.com/open?id=12N2u9rsNcyXtr26RdtZ1mt0K21MBCW98

Do you have the basic K36 ancestral report as well?

passenger
09-13-2019, 02:20 AM
I'm 100% AJ. Here's mine,
https://drive.google.com/open?id=12N2u9rsNcyXtr26RdtZ1mt0K21MBCW98

Btw, your chromosome 7 is quite the kaleidoscope!

Sikeliot
09-13-2019, 02:22 AM
I have long expected there is some degree of Arabian ancestry among Jews, because the Israelite population absorbed many southern Canaanite populations such as Edomites and Moabites who lived on the border with Arabia. These southern Canaanites were likely more "Arabian" like than were the coastal Canaanite populations like Phoenicians.

bejewelled
09-13-2019, 01:31 PM
Double post

bejewelled
09-13-2019, 01:33 PM
Do you have the basic K36 ancestral report as well?
Amerindian -
Arabian 2.59 Pct
Armenian 7.01 Pct
Basque -
Central_African -
Central_Euro -
East_African -
East_Asian -
East_Balkan 7.41 Pct
East_Central_Asian -
East_Central_Euro 1.96 Pct
East_Med 16.97 Pct
Eastern_Euro 1.40 Pct
Fennoscandian -
French 1.55 Pct
Iberian 13.24 Pct
Indo-Chinese 0.46 Pct
Italian 18.57 Pct
Malayan -
Near_Eastern 14.89 Pct
North_African 2.52 Pct
North_Atlantic -
North_Caucasian 3.04 Pct
North_Sea 0.55 Pct
Northeast_African 0.90 Pct
Oceanian -
Omotic -
Pygmy -
Siberian -
South_Asian -
South_Central_Asian -
South_Chinese -
Volga-Ural 1.87 Pct
West_African -
West_Caucasian 0.30 Pct
West_Med 4.77 Pct

passenger
09-13-2019, 02:46 PM
Amerindian -
Arabian 2.59 Pct
Armenian 7.01 Pct
Basque -
Central_African -
Central_Euro -
East_African -
East_Asian -
East_Balkan 7.41 Pct
East_Central_Asian -
East_Central_Euro 1.96 Pct
East_Med 16.97 Pct
Eastern_Euro 1.40 Pct
Fennoscandian -
French 1.55 Pct
Iberian 13.24 Pct
Indo-Chinese 0.46 Pct
Italian 18.57 Pct
Malayan -
Near_Eastern 14.89 Pct
North_African 2.52 Pct
North_Atlantic -
North_Caucasian 3.04 Pct
North_Sea 0.55 Pct
Northeast_African 0.90 Pct
Oceanian -
Omotic -
Pygmy -
Siberian -
South_Asian -
South_Central_Asian -
South_Chinese -
Volga-Ural 1.87 Pct
West_African -
West_Caucasian 0.30 Pct
West_Med 4.77 Pct

Thanks, but actually I was referring to the LM Genetics ancestral report (the basic version, which is different from the chromosome analysis). I'm always curious to see those as well, because they have the overall admixture oracle with the population breakdown.

bejewelled
09-13-2019, 03:41 PM
Thanks, but actually I was referring to the LM Genetics ancestral report (the basic version, which is different from the chromosome analysis). I'm always curious to see those as well, because they have the overall admixture oracle with the population breakdown.
There you go

https://drive.google.com/open?id=1gUd6jZdDBk9BiId_TEY1MPE5qSpDgP5y

jetshop
09-14-2019, 10:34 AM
Does anyone know about the East_Balkan category and where it comes from historically? Every other AJ person's K36 that I've seen seems to get a good deal more than I have, which is ~0.9%. I'm wondering if that's significant at all or just within normal variation.

passenger
09-14-2019, 03:24 PM
Does anyone know about the East_Balkan category and where it comes from historically? Every other AJ person's K36 that I've seen seems to get a good deal more than I have, which is ~0.9%. I'm wondering if that's significant at all or just within normal variation.

Good question. I don't know exactly where it comes from historically or why your percentage seems relatively low, but here's the component frequency map:

33167

Can you post your K36 here?

passenger
09-14-2019, 03:49 PM
And, while we're on the topic, I'm sure this has been discussed elsewhere, but I'm still confused over the difference between Near_Eastern, East_Med and Arabian. My impression is that Near_Eastern is supposed to be Levantine and Arabian is more peninsular. I'm not sure where that leaves East_Med, but when I run searches the same component map is variously labeled as any one of those three categories.

StillWater
09-14-2019, 03:58 PM
I have long expected there is some degree of Arabian ancestry among Jews, because the Israelite population absorbed many southern Canaanite populations such as Edomites and Moabites who lived on the border with Arabia. These southern Canaanites were likely more "Arabian" like than were the coastal Canaanite populations like Phoenicians.

K36 isn't the best way to gauge this because Yemenite Jews are used as a reference for the Arabian category. While they plot around Arabia, their IBD sharing and consistent Cohen lineages imply that they do partly descend from Israelites.

jetshop
09-15-2019, 04:13 AM
Good question. I don't know exactly where it comes from historically or why your percentage seems relatively low, but here's the component frequency map:

33167

Can you post your K36 here?

Sure.


Arabian 4.00 Pct
Armenian 6.32 Pct
Basque 2.89 Pct
East_Balkan 0.93 Pct
East_Central_Euro 2.14 Pct
East_Med 14.00 Pct
Eastern_Euro 3.08 Pct
French 1.82 Pct
Iberian 8.90 Pct
Italian 20.47 Pct
Near_Eastern 12.09 Pct
North_African 3.82 Pct
North_Atlantic 0.44 Pct
North_Caucasian 4.84 Pct
North_Sea 4.83 Pct
Volga-Ural 0.84 Pct
West_Caucasian 3.63 Pct
West_Med 4.95 Pct

StillWater
09-15-2019, 05:32 AM
Sure.


Arabian 4.00 Pct
Armenian 6.32 Pct
Basque 2.89 Pct
East_Balkan 0.93 Pct
East_Central_Euro 2.14 Pct
East_Med 14.00 Pct
Eastern_Euro 3.08 Pct
French 1.82 Pct
Iberian 8.90 Pct
Italian 20.47 Pct
Near_Eastern 12.09 Pct
North_African 3.82 Pct
North_Atlantic 0.44 Pct
North_Caucasian 4.84 Pct
North_Sea 4.83 Pct
Volga-Ural 0.84 Pct
West_Caucasian 3.63 Pct
West_Med 4.95 Pct

My Grandma gets 0.98 East Balkan.

Ellerbe
09-16-2019, 10:13 PM
And, while we're on the topic, I'm sure this has been discussed elsewhere, but I'm still confused over the difference between Near_Eastern, East_Med and Arabian. My impression is that Near_Eastern is supposed to be Levantine and Arabian is more peninsular. I'm not sure where that leaves East_Med, but when I run searches the same component map is variously labeled as any one of those three categories.

East med = non-muslim levantine populations, near eastern = levantine muslims, arabian = saudi

passenger
10-15-2019, 09:14 PM
What are some of your DNA portal calculator results? I would love to compare.

Sorry, I just now noticed this question as I was revisiting this thread to compare results. Which DNA portal results are you interested in seeing?

chelle
10-16-2019, 04:31 AM
Sorry, I just now noticed this question as I was revisiting this thread to compare results. Which DNA portal results are you interested in seeing?
K13, ancient near east And any others you would like to share. Thanks.

passenger
10-16-2019, 04:55 AM
K13, ancient near east And any others you would like to share. Thanks.

My K13:

339223392333924

Edit: The first table is missing 18.40% East Mediterranean. Sometimes when I take screenshots the toolbar gets moved to the middle of the image. Kind of annoying.

passenger
10-16-2019, 05:10 AM
Ancient near east is:

Southeast Asian 0.00%

Anatolia Neolithic 15.95%

CHG-EEF 38.68%

Polar 1.96%

EHG 11.20%

Sub-Saharan 1.11%

Iran-Neolithic 9.62%

Karitiana 0.09%

Ancestral-Indian 0.00%

Natufian 10.94%

Siberian 0.00%

Papuan 0.33%

SHG-WHG 10.13%


Population Oracle:

3392533926

chelle
10-16-2019, 02:36 PM
My K13:

339223392333924

Edit: The first table is missing 18.40% East Mediterranean. Sometimes when I take screenshots the toolbar gets moved to the middle of the image. Kind of annoying.
Thank you. And I completely understand your frustration. I use a snip tool on my laptop and I always have to have the image just so or shrink it down to get everything to fit or not have something pop up into the image. Right now my frustration is trying to use only my phone to view this page and images. I am seriously regretting not bringing my laptop on my current trip.

StillWater
10-16-2019, 04:21 PM
Also, here's my K36 Chromosome Analysis, which I just received. Hopefully the link is working.

How do you plan to apply this?

passenger
10-17-2019, 04:05 AM
How do you plan to apply this?

Apply it in what sense?

StillWater
10-17-2019, 04:23 AM
Apply it in what sense?

Now you know your admixture per chromosome, what insight does that give you into anything else?

passenger
10-17-2019, 04:44 AM
Now you know your admixture per chromosome, what insight does that give you into anything else?

Too soon to say. Mostly I just like the pretty colors :lol: It's hard to tell how useful it is without knowing how much of it is noise (probably a lot of the small stuff) and how much is a product of the usual tug of war between my NW European and Western Jewish. That is, compared with a GedMatch calculator, for example, I appear to get fewer regions that are simply an average of different components, and more that seem to reflect distinct "blocks" of my heritage, but nonetheless there's clearly some averaging out in some of the estimates.

That said, it's another small piece in the puzzle that could prove useful for comparison's sake. First I think I'd have to see a lot more of these reports to get a sense of what's particular about mine vs. what's "standard".

In relation to my initial question in this thread, I don't know that it brings me any closer to understanding the Arabian type percentages I sometimes receive in these types of analyses. I do see significant "Saudi Arabia" and "Yemen Jew" percentages on a number of chromosomes, but again, not sure how that compares to other Western Jewish results.

passenger
10-17-2019, 09:40 PM
I wish mine all had the snazzy pie charts. I wonder if I could request updated ones. Here is my mom's report. She is also half. This is her K36 breakdown.

Does your mom have a K36 chromosome analysis by any chance?

StillWater
10-17-2019, 10:38 PM
I'm thinking of getting a K36 report, but I don't see the benefit yet of getting a chromosome report, especially since it's missing some of the PCA etc features.

passenger
10-18-2019, 12:57 AM
I'm thinking of getting a K36 report, but I don't see the benefit yet of getting a chromosome report, especially since it's missing some of the PCA etc features.

Yeah, it really depends what you're interested in seeing, and also what your background is. What I like about the basic ancestry report is that it has the overall population breakdown and oracles, but frankly the plot and distance maps are useless to me, since my background is regionally mixed. I learn nothing from them that I haven't already gleaned from Gedmatch calculators. I still have to sit with the chromosome analysis for a while to figure out what use I can get out of it, but at least it's a different perspective from the standard ethnicity breakdowns I've gotten, and it's kind of cool to see how things are distributed.

chelle
10-18-2019, 05:18 PM
[QUOTE=passenger;611708]Does your mom have a K36 chromosome analysis by any chance?[/

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1Eb6AGDHbBGFjS5MFt7X9m-3xG0FHRBXG/view

chelle
10-18-2019, 08:45 PM
[QUOTE=passenger;611708]Does your mom have a K36 chromosome analysis by any chance?[/

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1Eb6AGDHbBGFjS5MFt7X9m-3xG0FHRBXG/view

*this is the only report I currently have, but want to get the more detailed report soon hopefully.

chelle
10-19-2019, 01:55 PM
Okay I placed an order to get a new updated K36 report and a chromosome one, so I will post when I get results.

chelle
11-12-2019, 08:38 PM
I just received my mom's new K36 report. I am still waiting on the chromosome one, which will hopefully arrive any day now.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/16uRgzOBFbpnSaR_8bdfr3ryMjD7F_TK2/view

chelle
11-16-2019, 05:41 AM
Does your mom have a K36 chromosome analysis by any chance?

Got it today!

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1phVuwRmooUuJx42PIQ9UFJhZa1Qxqq46/view

passenger
11-17-2019, 01:28 AM
Got it today!

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1phVuwRmooUuJx42PIQ9UFJhZa1Qxqq46/view

Very interesting. Not surprisingly her results are similar to mine in a number of ways. In terms of MENA regions, though, she seems more Caucasian/West Asian and less "Arabian" than me, which leads me back to thinking there's something particularly southern about some of my MENA segments.

I also find it interesting that her DNA seems to show a lot of affinity with the Sephardi_Portugal_Belmonte references.

chelle
11-17-2019, 03:51 AM
Very interesting. Not surprisingly her results are similar to mine in a number of ways. In terms of MENA regions, though, she seems more Caucasian/West Asian and less "Arabian" than me, which leads me back to thinking there's something particularly southern about some of my MENA segments.

I also find it interesting that her DNA seems to show a lot of affinity with the Sephardi_Portugal_Belmonte references.

Thank you. I was hoping to get your opinion on it. Earlier I was trying to compare the differences and similarities between my moms, yours and Bejewelled. They are all so varied. Which areas do you think are indicative of true ancestral ties and which do you think are more reflective of just being a halfway point due to the northern European pull with regards to to my mom's and yours? I did notice you got quite a bit of the Egypt, Saudi Arabia and Berber categories.

passenger
11-17-2019, 05:22 AM
Thank you. I was hoping to get your opinion on it. Earlier I was trying to compare the differences and similarities between my moms, yours and Bejewelled. They are all so varied. Which areas do you think are indicative of true ancestral ties and which do you think are more reflective of just being a halfway point due to the northern European pull with regards to to my mom's and yours? I did notice you got quite a bit of the Egypt, Saudi Arabia and Berber categories.

It's hard to say which groups reflect actual ancestry. Some regions I think are just part of the "standard" Jewish mix, including a lot of what reads as Italian, Greek, Berber, Lebanese, Caucasus groups, etc. I don't recall exactly what the rest of your mother's ancestry is, but in my case I'm pretty sure that a lot of what reads as French, Spanish and Balkan does not reflect individual components of my ancestry, but rather averaging out between my paternal and maternal ancestry, as would happen in most population oracles. Remind me again what her other half is?

chelle
11-17-2019, 05:40 AM
It's hard to say which groups reflect actual ancestry. Some regions I think are just part of the "standard" Jewish mix, including a lot of what reads as Italian, Greek, Berber, Lebanese, Caucasus groups, etc. I don't recall exactly what the rest of your mother's ancestry is, but in my case I'm pretty sure that a lot of what reads as French, Spanish and Balkan does not reflect individual components of my ancestry, but rather averaging out between my paternal and maternal ancestry, as would happen in most population oracles. Remind me again what her other half is?

From what I know of her paternal side it is mostly British mix and a bit of French, German and Netherlands thrown in.

Tanchik
07-19-2020, 11:39 AM
My questions are, how common is it for those with Jewish ancestry to get percentages from ostensibly non-Levantine Arab populations and what do you attribute that to? Do other Jewish K36 reports show similar percentages? If so, how does that compare to estimates from other sites?
[/QUOTE]

For 75% Ashkenazi and 25% Turkish Jew. Its unusual. But you guys have to understand that calculators can make you lower and southern in one way and make you higher and notthern on the other way. The closest population to the pure ancient Israel are between Samaritan to Lebanese Christian Populations. Everything on that are the regions that they went after they left Israel. For Ashkenazim Population we know that they Originate in North Italy. If you cheak me you will see that Average Ashkenazi Jew can score 50% LebaneseChristian/Samaritan + 50% North Italian. With distance from 2-4%>+/-. North African Jews Originate on Spain and mixed a bit with the local n.African population. Mizrahi Jews Aswell in their area from 25-50% depends on the relationship with the local population. The root of the jews are from Israel so on that you can build a theory. For Half NW European with mix Jewish populations its quite hard to get accurate results from "ancient" calvulators. But there is almost 0% way that you will have Bedouins dna because both of your Jewish sides are closer to Euro cluster.
Ashkenazis are close to Sicillians and Turkish Jews close to South Greeks. Their same root in ancient Israel. Ashkenazis have 2/4 Euro Mothers and 2 Levantine Fathers. Turkish Jews Could also fit as Half Turkish with Half Ancient Israeli Dna. so for your question the answer is no. Bedouin could.be in a result of Yemen Jews or very ancient Arab admix but it was gone while Jews mix with Jews so those 4% was dissapire after a few generations.

passenger
07-19-2020, 03:51 PM
For 75% Ashkenazi and 25% Turkish Jew. Its unusual. But you guys have to understand that calculators can make you lower and southern in one way and make you higher and notthern on the other way. The closest population to the pure ancient Israel are between Samaritan to Lebanese Christian Populations. Everything on that are the regions that they went after they left Israel. For Ashkenazim Population we know that they Originate in North Italy. If you cheak me you will see that Average Ashkenazi Jew can score 50% LebaneseChristian/Samaritan + 50% North Italian. With distance from 2-4%>+/-. North African Jews Originate on Spain and mixed a bit with the local n.African population. Mizrahi Jews Aswell in their area from 25-50% depends on the relationship with the local population. The root of the jews are from Israel so on that you can build a theory. For Half NW European with mix Jewish populations its quite hard to get accurate results from "ancient" calvulators. But there is almost 0% way that you will have Bedouins dna because both of your Jewish sides are closer to Euro cluster.
Ashkenazis are close to Sicillians and Turkish Jews close to South Greeks. Their same root in ancient Israel. Ashkenazis have 2/4 Euro Mothers and 2 Levantine Fathers. Turkish Jews Could also fit as Half Turkish with Half Ancient Israeli Dna. so for your question the answer is no. Bedouin could.be in a result of Yemen Jews or very ancient Arab admix but it was gone while Jews mix with Jews so those 4% was dissapire after a few generations.


Thanks for your input. I'm aware of all that, though I think there is a lot of nuance that you are leaving out of that Jewish ethnogenesis scenario, and our understanding of that ethnogenesis is constantly evolving, as you can see from some of our threads here, most notably the very long "Western Jews" thread, which you have already come across.

My question in this particular thread wasn't so much based on the notion that Jews would have literal Bedouin ancestry, but an attempt to understand why certain calculators and other ethnicity breakdowns kept giving me a Bedouin-like percentage, which I had originally assumed would be almost solely due to my maternal (Jewish) ancestry. In G25 models, this often appears as Yemenite or Yemenite Jewish, but I believe the same factor or factors are at work. My hunch at this point is that the reason why I am assigned these types of percentages (much more frequently than my mother) has something to do with the combination of both my maternal and paternal ancestry. My father also gets small "Arabian" (Yemenite) percentages in G25 for whatever reason, and I believe this, combined with the way my Jewish ancestry gets (mis)read in many models due to the averaging out of some components and potential exaggeration of others, is probably the reason why I get these kinds of results.

Having said that, I do think that there are both diasporic and pre-diasporic sources of "Arabian"-like ancestry in Ashkenazim and Sephardim in general that need to be accounted for, and I'm not so sure that even a relatively ancient source would simply "disappear" over time, given what we know about how much other ancient DNA has been, perhaps surprisingly, well preserved among modern Jews, and what an apparently large percentage of their admixture seems to come from pre-diasporic and early diasporic events, rather than from later periods of their diasporic communal existence.

Targum
07-27-2020, 12:40 AM
One of my Trace Ancestries on 23andme:

"your DNA suggests that 0.3% of your ancestry is Peninsular Arab.
For over 100,000 years, humans have lived in the Arabian Peninsula — a bridge between Africa and the rest of the world. Around the same time as the rise of dynastic Egypt, a handful of Arabian civilizations and kingdoms emerged, facilitating trade between Africa and Eurasia. But it wasn’t until the birth of Islam in western Arabia that the Arabic language — along with an Arab-like genetic signature — spread across much of western Asia and North Africa. Today, the peninsula is home to over 75 million people and the world’s second largest subtropical desert.
We’re working to identify your more detailed Peninsular Arab ancestry "