PDA

View Full Version : Donegal, Ireland an outlier for the country?



Sikeliot
09-03-2019, 11:35 PM
This is from the recent study on Scotland.

An article on the study stated that "The researchers were also able to analyse the county of Donegal in more detail than before, revealing it as the most genetically isolated region of Ireland observed to date. This isolation shows little evidence of the migrations that have impacted the rest of Ulster."

The Irish DNA Atlas and the Insular Celtic study did both find that some part of "Gaelic" Ulster was an outlier, but not more than south Munster which appeared to be the most distinct region. By contrast, in this study it appears Munster is genetically continuous with what is called "Central Ireland" which expands across the central part of Ireland from Connacht to Leinster, and does not appear to be an outlier at all.

So my question is this... which is correct? And why would Donegal be different than other parts of Ireland?

https://www.rcsi.com/dublin/-/media/feature/news/dublin/2019/scottish-dna-map.jpg

spruithean
09-04-2019, 12:07 AM
Ireland shows slightly elevated levels of ROH [Runs of Homozygosity] compared to the majority of England and Scotland, as has been reported previously29,31. We demonstrate that the highest levels of ROH in the settled Irish population (as opposed to the Irish Traveller population, a genetic isolate29) are found in the north-western county of Donegal. This level of genetic isolation agrees with our other population structure analyses where Donegal, particularly Donegal 2, shows higher levels of differentiation. These analyses taken together suggest Donegal is the most genetically isolated region of Ireland observed to date. - from the supplementary of that paper.

and...


Previous analyses of population structure within Ireland6,20 had only sparse coverage in the north-west of the island, County Donegal. A larger sample has identified considerable structure there. Whilst our sampling of the north-west of Ireland is the densest so far, it is an open question to the geographic extent of this cluster along the coast of Donegal and neighbouring Irish counties to the south. As discussed elsewhere, Donegal appears to be the end of a number of genetic clines within Ireland, including principal component, t-SNE dimensions, ADMIXTURE ancestry proportions, and levels of autozygosity. It appears that this region of Ireland is at the northern end of the Irish genetic continuum. The central-west coast of Ireland (e.g. Connemara) is similarly mountainous like Donegal. Further sampling from this region may, like the case of Donegal, identify other structure that could be related or separate to this novel Donegal structure.

It seems it wasn't an outlier in the previous paper because it had "sparse coverage".

https://www.pnas.org/content/suppl/2019/08/27/1904761116.DCSupplemental

https://www.pnas.org/content/early/2019/08/27/1904761116

sktibo
09-04-2019, 12:36 AM
WHOA! The study on Scotland was published!?

pmokeefe
09-04-2019, 12:42 AM
[Note: This post is essentially the same as the earlier one from spruithean, which wasn't posted yet when I was writing this one]

The genetic landscape of Scotland and the Isles (https://www.pnas.org/content/early/2019/08/27/1904761116)

"Populations in the Hebrides, the Highlands, Argyll, Donegal, and the Isle of Man show characteristics of isolation."
"The Isle of Man is grouped with the southwestern Scottish individuals, and Donegal appears to be at the end of a genetic axis within Ireland."

...

The smallest estimates of D, which correspond to the largest British/Irish affinity compared to Scandinavia, are to Donegal, the Hebrides, and Argyll. This corresponds to the northwestern region of the British Isles and Ireland which is known to have experienced heavy Viking activity.


Supplementary Information (https://www.pnas.org/content/pnas/suppl/2019/08/27/1904761116.DCSupplemental/pnas.1904761116.sapp.pdf)

Ireland shows slightly elevated levels of ROH compared to the majority of England and
Scotland, as has been reported previously. We demonstrate that the highest levels of ROH in the
settled Irish population (as opposed to the Irish Traveller population, a genetic isolate) are found in
the north-western county of Donegal. This level of genetic isolation agrees with our other population
structure analyses where Donegal, particularly Donegal 2, shows higher levels of differentiation.
These analyses taken together suggest Donegal is the most genetically isolated region of Ireland
observed to date.

Sikeliot
09-04-2019, 12:43 AM
Still interesting to me is that Connacht was predicted by many to be an outlier and be some "pure" Irish holdout but this is the third study showing that they are part of the same genetic clusters as Leinster, and that they were anything but shielded from admixture.

So the question is then, is the Donegal cluster representing a cluster that has very limited/comparatively low English, Scottish, Norman, and Viking admixture?

Sikeliot
09-04-2019, 12:45 AM
The smallest estimates of D, which correspond to the largest British/Irish affinity compared to Scandinavia, are to Donegal, the Hebrides, and Argyll. This corresponds to the northwestern region of the British Isles and Ireland which is known to have experienced heavy Viking activity.
[/INDENT]

What is this saying? Donegal has high Viking ancestry, but very low admixture from Britain?

spruithean
09-04-2019, 12:49 AM
Still interesting to me is that Connacht was predicted by many to be an outlier and be some "pure" Irish holdout but this is the third study showing that they are part of the same genetic clusters as Leinster, and that they were anything but shielded from admixture.

Why would Connacht have been a "pure" outlier? There were a number of Anglo-Norman derived family groups within the region, and several descendant groups who were dispossessed by Cromwell and sent to Connacht.


So the question is then, is the Donegal cluster representing a cluster that has very limited/comparatively low English, Scottish, Norman, and Viking admixture?

https://www.pnas.org/content/pnas/early/2019/08/27/1904761116/F3.large.jpg

pmokeefe
09-04-2019, 12:58 AM
What is this saying? Donegal has high Viking ancestry, but very low admixture from Britain?

There are tables from the paper which show the breakdown of English/Norwegian proportions for Donegal relative to other regions. They are reproduced on another post here. (https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?2573-New-DNA-Papers-General-Discussion-Thread&p=597185&viewfull=1#post597185)

Sikeliot
09-04-2019, 01:05 AM
Why would Connacht have been a "pure" outlier? There were a number of Anglo-Norman derived family groups within the region, and several descendant groups who were dispossessed by Cromwell and sent to Connacht.


People thought this because they have the highest proportion of Irish speakers. But 3 studies now grouped them with Leinster and not with "outlier" regions like Donegal or Kerry.

And clearly this is reflected in that in the "English vs Welsh vs Norwegian" admixture chart for Ireland, "Central Ireland" which includes Leinster and Connacht has the highest amount of "English" ancestry, and Munster has more than Donegal too so the other study finding South Munster an outlier is clearly not due to a lack of English type admixture.

CillKenny
09-04-2019, 08:44 PM
I think it is important to remember that an laigin were a distinct population group that are attested to have spread from what is now south Leinster to very much the area now outlined by the C. Ireland group (in what is now north Munster and parts of what is now Connacht). A good source is the classic book by Francis J Byrne - Irish Kings and High Kings where he argues that the laigin and the fir domnann were related groups that pooled their history at a point before history was written down. The later area of the laigin (Leinster) is the geographic area that we remember from the maps that come from about 900 AD. These maps show the much smaller area that this group were then squeezed into by the expansion of other groups (that mainly practiced elite removal rather than population replacement).

I find it interesting that if you overlaid a map of where modern hurling is strong it would very much correspond to the C. Ireland group. Modern hurling as played in Ireland is actually the Leinster version of hurling. Ulster hurling was much more like shinty.

Dubhthach
09-06-2019, 04:38 PM
What should be remember is that the modern concept of Leinster doesn't actually match the historic one.

http://sites.rootsweb.com/~irlkik/ihm/gif/leinster.gif

Modern Leinster is considerably larger than historic Laighin

http://compsoc.nuigalway.ie/~dubhthach/laighin01.jpg

What needs to be remember is that all of modern 'North Leinster' was actually ruled by the Uí Néill (eg. province of Mide -- Meath)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Provinces_of_Ireland#/media/File:Ireland_early_peoples_and_politics.gif

Connacht, Southern Uí Néill and the Northern Uí Néill all formed a closely related military/tribal alliance through shared descent structure (the Dál Cuinn -- descendants of Conn of Hundred battle)

http://compsoc.nuigalway.ie/~dubhthach/DNA/eochaid-connachta.png

This is reflective of older tradition which divides Ireland into two halves namely:
Leath Cuinn -- the half of Conn eg. the lands north of line Galway to Dublin ruled/dominated by the descendants of Conn Cétchathach (Conn of Hundred BattleS)
Leath Mugha -- the half of Mug Nuadhat eg. Eogan Mór -- south of line Galway to Dublin -- ruled/dominated by the Eoghanachta of Munster


Within the Irish language there are isoglosses (like in any language tbh), unsurprisingly dialectically the now extinct dialects of Northern Leinster are most closely related to those of Connacht
http://compsoc.nuigalway.ie/~dubhthach/gaeilge-isoglosses.png

Within even the dialect of Ulster Irish where the modern dialects of Donegal sit we see variation, with the modern dialects of Donegal been the most divergent say compared to those of Tyrone (which survived into the 1930's/40's and were recorded). There are for example a number of 'innovations' in Donegal not seen elsewhere.

Dubhthach
09-06-2019, 04:53 PM
In context of Donegal, couple things to remember:

1. There were no permanent (multi-year) year round Viking settlements in Ireland north of line Dublin to Viking. This was reflective of the lack of military success that they often faced against Uí Néill forces. For example the name of county comes from 'Dún na nGall' (fort of Foreigners) reflecting the idea that there was a Viking longphort on site of the modern Town of Donegal. This Longphort was destroyed by the Cenél Conaill.

2. Donegal received min to none Norman input. It blunted in the south of the county by Battle of Creadran Cille (in Sligo) in 1257 which led to death of both Maurice FitzGerald (2nd Lord of Offaly) and of Gofraidh Ó Domhnaill (King of Tír Chonaill). In the North the Norman lordship in Inishowen was eventually destroyed during the 14th century as a result of the Burke Civil war (after the murder of the Earl of Ulster) and was eventually conquored by the Ó Dochartaigh (O'Doherty's) expanding out of Tír Chonaill proper.

3. With the breakup of the Northern overlordship kingdom of Aileach (Northern Uí Néill) there was a resultant 400 year Cold-war/hot-war situation between 'Tír Chonaill' (the land of Conall eg. Donegal) and 'Tír nEogain' (land of Eogan eg. Tyrone), this situation was only finally address with the alliance of Aodh Ó Néill (Hugh O'Neill -- Earl of Tyrone) and Aodh Rua Ó Domhnaill (King of Tír Chonaill -- whose brother would later be 1st Earl of Tyrconnell) during the 9 year war. As a result the Donegal/Tyrone (including modern Derry) frontier was subject to regular raids/warfare

4. The Plantation of Ulster only really affected Eastern Donegal (Lagan Valley). As a result the county had minimum input post 1609 into most of county which remained majority Irish speaking right into 19th century.

5. The geography of Donegal with mountain ranges in interior restricts populations to either the coast or the inland area around Letterykenny/Raphoe (eg. Lagan). Likewise the county has been subject to mass emigration since the mid 19th century. As a result it wouldn't surprise me if we are thus seen increased genetic drift among the population due to fact that until about 15-20 years ago there was minimum to none migration into county (other than returning Donegal people)

Dubhthach
09-06-2019, 04:56 PM
It's also worth remembering that Donegal falls into zone of low levels of La Tene finds which is atypical for somewhere in northern half of Ireland, this is probably reflective of communications issue due to Mountains (major pass through which at Barnesmore Gap)

http://compsoc.nuigalway.ie/~dubhthach/irelandlpria.jpg

La Tene finds in Ireland are generally linked to increased contacts with Northern Britain in period after 200BC, for the previous 600 years people talk about an 'Irish Dark age'.

CillKenny
09-06-2019, 07:19 PM
The notion of Leinster as a geographic region obviously postdates the Norse as the ending ster attests. The earlier notion of a people called the laigin come to us from a time before history was written down and these people had a much wider sphere of influence than we first see them in the written record.

Here are some relevant passages from F J Byrne which date the loss of mide by the laigin to somewhere in the period 475 to 516 AD.
32974

32975

Sikeliot
09-08-2019, 01:09 PM
2. Donegal received min to none Norman input. It blunted in the south of the county by Battle of Creadran Cille (in Sligo) in 1257 which led to death of both Maurice FitzGerald (2nd Lord of Offaly) and of Gofraidh Ó Domhnaill (King of Tír Chonaill). In the North the Norman lordship in Inishowen was eventually destroyed during the 14th century as a result of the Burke Civil war (after the murder of the Earl of Ulster) and was eventually conquored by the Ó Dochartaigh (O'Doherty's) expanding out of Tír Chonaill proper.

4. The Plantation of Ulster only really affected Eastern Donegal (Lagan Valley). As a result the county had minimum input post 1609 into most of county which remained majority Irish speaking right into 19th century.

5. The geography of Donegal with mountain ranges in interior restricts populations to either the coast or the inland area around Letterykenny/Raphoe (eg. Lagan). Likewise the county has been subject to mass emigration since the mid 19th century. As a result it wouldn't surprise me if we are thus seen increased genetic drift among the population due to fact that until about 15-20 years ago there was minimum to none migration into county (other than returning Donegal people)

I would imagine these three explanations to be the primary reasons why Donegal today is an outlier, especially the lack of Norman settlement. If we think of other regions of Ireland that people ASSUMED would be outlying, such as Connacht, or those who are slightly differentiated such as southwestern Munster, there was comparatively less Norman settlement in Donegal.

This would suggest to me that Norman settlement had a significant role in shifting the Irish population genetically toward England.

sktibo
09-08-2019, 07:00 PM
I would imagine these three explanations to be the primary reasons why Donegal today is an outlier, especially the lack of Norman settlement. If we think of other regions of Ireland that people ASSUMED would be outlying, such as Connacht, or those who are slightly differentiated such as southwestern Munster, there was comparatively less Norman settlement in Donegal.

This would suggest to me that Norman settlement had a significant role in shifting the Irish population genetically toward England.

There were a lot of English who lived in Ireland in the late middle ages too, many of which began to adopt Irish habits and customs. IIRC in "Contested Island" by S. J. Connolly, there were records of notices banning the adoption of Irish habits by people of English descent, indicating this was fairly common. It has been many years since I've read this book so I may be confusing this with a different source so this is completely off the top of my head.
My opinion on this matter is that the later English incomers could have had more to do with changes in Irish population genetics than the Normans.

spruithean
09-08-2019, 09:02 PM
There were a lot of English who lived in Ireland in the late middle ages too, many of which began to adopt Irish habits and customs. IIRC in "Contested Island" by S. J. Connolly, there were records of notices banning the adoption of Irish habits by people of English descent, indicating this was fairly common. It has been many years since I've read this book so I may be confusing this with a different source so this is completely off the top of my head.
My opinion on this matter is that the later English incomers could have had more to do with changes in Irish population genetics than the Normans.

Agreed. The "English" who came prior to the Plantation period eventually became "more Irish than the Irish themselves", obviously some of these pockets of "English" eventually blended into the Irish population, which would certainly have an affect on the genetics of Ireland. I think one of the most interesting "English" derived populations in Ireland was that of the Yola people in Co. Wexford who spoke their own variety of English, they were a population of mixed origins among the English, Welsh, Danish, Flemish, Normans, French, Irish and Old Norse people who eventually disappeared into the local population with the land confiscations of the period and their language suffered the same fate as that of the Irish language in the era with the introduction of Modern English.

Sikeliot
09-08-2019, 10:06 PM
Agreed. The "English" who came prior to the Plantation period eventually became "more Irish than the Irish themselves", obviously some of these pockets of "English" eventually blended into the Irish population, which would certainly have an affect on the genetics of Ireland. I think one of the most interesting "English" derived populations in Ireland was that of the Yola people in Co. Wexford who spoke their own variety of English, they were a population of mixed origins among the English, Welsh, Danish, Flemish, Normans, French, Irish and Old Norse people who eventually disappeared into the local population with the land confiscations of the period and their language suffered the same fate as that of the Irish language in the era with the introduction of Modern English.

English ancestry should be highest from Dublin down to Wexford including places like Kilkenny and Wicklow I expect. Connacht would be next as many of these people were pushed westward by later British conquest.

sktibo
09-08-2019, 10:31 PM
English ancestry should be highest from Dublin down to Wexford including places like Kilkenny and Wicklow I expect. Connacht would be next as many of these people were pushed westward by later British conquest.

One thing that was really interesting was that with the addition of the Scottish samples much of the variation in Ireland seen in the Irish DNA Atlas and the Insular...Celtic..Genomic...Hard-to-remember-the-name-of-it-study was lost. So, there's no longer a difference on this one between the samples around Dublin and the southern half of Connacht. However I suppose if we were able to look into each sample on an individual basis I would think you would be correct and the samples around the central eastern areas would have the largest chunks of the English admixture on the three-way admixture chart... but perhaps the differences would be very significant.

Sikeliot
09-08-2019, 10:48 PM
One thing that was really interesting was that with the addition of the Scottish samples much of the variation in Ireland seen in the Irish DNA Atlas and the Insular...Celtic..Genomic...Hard-to-remember-the-name-of-it-study was lost. So, there's no longer a difference on this one between the samples around Dublin and the southern half of Connacht. However I suppose if we were able to look into each sample on an individual basis I would think you would be correct and the samples around the central eastern areas would have the largest chunks of the English admixture on the three-way admixture chart... but perhaps the differences would be very significant.

I think so far in all of the studies, there has been continuity across central Ireland, meaning Leinster and Connacht form one cluster. Or at least, Dublin to Wexford forms a cluster across to Galway, while Mayo/Roscommon/etc might have more in common with northern Leinster such as Louth. Therefore it might make sense to call Connacht and Leinster 'Central Ireland' from a genetic POV than to say east versus west.

Dubhthach
09-09-2019, 09:24 AM
There were a lot of English who lived in Ireland in the late middle ages too, many of which began to adopt Irish habits and customs. IIRC in "Contested Island" by S. J. Connolly, there were records of notices banning the adoption of Irish habits by people of English descent, indicating this was fairly common. It has been many years since I've read this book so I may be confusing this with a different source so this is completely off the top of my head.
My opinion on this matter is that the later English incomers could have had more to do with changes in Irish population genetics than the Normans.

It should be noted that 'Norman' in this case is just a catch all phrase. Obviously the elite spoke Norman-French (which has quite an impact providing loan words into Irish), but the common man included large number of Welsh (thence surnames Walsh/Welsh/Brannagh/Breathnach -- Walsh is 4th most common surname in Ireland) and obviously English, for example the surname 'English' is highly associated with parts of Munster and Leinster:
https://www.johngrenham.com/findasurname.php?surname=english

Of course at the time of the Reformation the 'English of Ireland' (as they were known) generally stayed Catholic and thus became known as the 'Old English' to contrast with the 'New English' Protestant adventurers of the Tudor era.

In general it's regarded that about 15-20% of people living in Ireland have 'Old English' surnames (these include names like FitzGerald and Burke which are of French linguistic origin). The process of Gaelicisation was already well in place within 2 generations of the invasion, with many of the major Barons acquiring Irish wives. For example William de Burgh married a daughter of Domnall Mór Ua Briain.

The main issue we have is we don't have a proper baseline for calculating what the (a) admixture (b) genetic drift, of the Irish population has been over the last 1,000 years. Now you could use for example the 'Gael' samples form Iceland. But ideally we need Iron Age/Early christian genomes from a wide geographic spread to provide a baseline of Irish population in both the (a) pre Viking (b) pre-Norman invasion (1169)

Sikeliot
09-09-2019, 11:52 AM
The main issue we have is we don't have a proper baseline for calculating what the (a) admixture (b) genetic drift, of the Irish population has been over the last 1,000 years. Now you could use for example the 'Gael' samples form Iceland. But ideally we need Iron Age/Early christian genomes from a wide geographic spread to provide a baseline of Irish population in both the (a) pre Viking (b) pre-Norman invasion (1169)

But couldn't we assume that Donegal is, at least partially, a proxy for the Irish population prior to Normans and Vikings?

Dubhthach
09-09-2019, 04:00 PM
But couldn't we assume that Donegal is, at least partially, a proxy for the Irish population prior to Normans and Vikings?

Sure but how representative is modern Donegal population, given that it has undergone 1,000 years of continued 'Genetic Drift'. For example there might be genetic variants that are are common in these Donegal clusters (due to relative small population size and drift etc.) that were rarer in general population say 1,200 years ago.

A more extreme case of genetic drift is with Irish Travellers, which is of result of their Endogamy compared to rest of Irish population and the high degree of consanguineous marriage which has amplified the level of Genetic drift from the 'Settled population' in period of probably no more then 500 years.

You also have to imagine that Donegal has connections to Hebrides due to both Maritime proximity and later medieval history with the setting up of the McSwiney Gallowglass lordships in Western Donegal (as part of payment for their service to their O'Donnell overlords).

There's also possibility that there was increased movement from Britain to Ireland in period after 200BC (Late Iron age) and especially post the Roman conquest of Southern Britain. There is evidence of more 'Brythonic' like input from archaelogy as well of course increased contact with Roman Britain in period after 200AD.

Ideally we should have multiple samples from across Ireland covering period 200-700AD. This would allow for a general picture on which all modern clusters could be compared. In case of Donegal more specifically the major Ballyhanna site from South Donegal (Near Ballyshannon) would be interesting to get aDNA from. They recovered 1,300+ remains from the site that appear to cover a 5-600 year period ending in the 13th/14th centuries.

Dave-V
09-09-2019, 07:42 PM
4. The Plantation of Ulster only really affected Eastern Donegal (Lagan Valley). As a result the county had minimum input post 1609 into most of county which remained majority Irish speaking right into 19th century.


Are you sure about this one? I can only cite personal research, but the south of Donegal was just as covered by undertakers (two of my surname receiving land in Boylagh and Banagh which they sold within a year but to a different undertaker) and Lord Chichester's holdings on the Inishowen peninsula brought an influx of soldiers not to mention the Vaughns and other hangers-on.

My own ancestry includes Chamberlains from Inishowen who were first documented there in Chichester's muster, and Protestant Vances who first appeared on Inishowen in the late 1600s. Although "Vance" in Donegal traces to three areas of the county between early to late 1600s - south, central (Laggan), and north, and ties to 3 different Y-DNA lines which may be a reflection either of NPEs or separate immigration but at least shows general DNA diffusion county-wide.

Granted that's just one example not a population-level comment, but the 1740 Protestant Householder's Index does at least show a pretty even distribution of Protestants around Donegal which I don't think is only a reflection of conversion efforts.

Sikeliot
09-10-2019, 04:03 AM
Are you sure about this one? I can only cite personal research, but the south of Donegal was just as covered by undertakers (two of my surname receiving land in Boylagh and Banagh which they sold within a year but to a different undertaker) and Lord Chichester's holdings on the Inishowen peninsula brought an influx of soldiers not to mention the Vaughns and other hangers-on.

My own ancestry includes Chamberlains from Inishowen who were first documented there in Chichester's muster, and Protestant Vances who first appeared on Inishowen in the late 1600s. Although "Vance" in Donegal traces to three areas of the county between early to late 1600s - south, central (Laggan), and north, and ties to 3 different Y-DNA lines which may be a reflection either of NPEs or separate immigration but at least shows general DNA diffusion county-wide.

Granted that's just one example not a population-level comment, but the 1740 Protestant Householder's Index does at least show a pretty even distribution of Protestants around Donegal which I don't think is only a reflection of conversion efforts.

Given that Donegal today has few Protestants could it be that many moved eastward to other counties?

Sikeliot
09-10-2019, 11:26 AM
Wanted to also ask, does anyone know what Louth is like genetically? I know several people in person from this county. Are they part of the same cluster as Dublin? Or are they more related to the "native" Ulster population who are a bit isolated?

Sikeliot
09-11-2019, 03:11 AM
It is worth noting that there are 2 clusters that make up Connacht... one of which encompasses Galway and is a cluster of higher amounts of English ancestry that also makes up southern Leinster (places like Wexford, Wicklow, Kilkenny, etc), and the other makes up Mayo and the northern part of Leinster -- likely corresponding with the historic county of Meath which no longer exists, and is tangentially related to, though less isolated than, the Donegal cluster.

So essentially there is one cluster called "N. Ireland" which covers parts of northern Connacht, northern Leinster, and Gaelic Ulster (except Donegal), and the there is one called "Central Ireland" which encompasses southern Connacht and the rest of Leinster.

Interesting is Munster is one cluster here, except for border areas such as Clare which also seem to have partial membership in the "Central Ireland" cluster.

https://i.imgur.com/Akyr0QP.png

Sikeliot
09-13-2019, 02:03 AM
I modeled Ireland, England, and Scotland using G25. This is what I got for Ireland...

How does this look to everyone?

https://i.imgur.com/6l0eBT4.png

Nqp15hhu
09-14-2019, 10:48 AM
It’s an isolated area with low population and a rugged landscape. The isolation has limited mixing from outside populations.

Nqp15hhu
09-14-2019, 10:49 AM
Still interesting to me is that Connacht was predicted by many to be an outlier and be some "pure" Irish holdout but this is the third study showing that they are part of the same genetic clusters as Leinster, and that they were anything but shielded from admixture.

So the question is then, is the Donegal cluster representing a cluster that has very limited/comparatively low English, Scottish, Norman, and Viking admixture?
Potentially. A lot of my matches from that side are 100% Irish on AncestryDNA, remarkably I wouldn’t be surprised if they had no Planter related ancestry.

Nqp15hhu
09-14-2019, 10:50 AM
Why would Connacht have been a "pure" outlier? There were a number of Anglo-Norman derived family groups within the region, and several descendant groups who were dispossessed by Cromwell and sent to Connacht.



https://www.pnas.org/content/pnas/early/2019/08/27/1904761116/F3.large.jpg

For some reason I keep getting a lot of Ulster Scots type Y-DNA matches down there. That always surprised me.

Nqp15hhu
09-14-2019, 10:52 AM
I would imagine these three explanations to be the primary reasons why Donegal today is an outlier, especially the lack of Norman settlement. If we think of other regions of Ireland that people ASSUMED would be outlying, such as Connacht, or those who are slightly differentiated such as southwestern Munster, there was comparatively less Norman settlement in Donegal.

This would suggest to me that Norman settlement had a significant role in shifting the Irish population genetically toward England.

It’s just too isolated. It doesn’t have any resources.

Nqp15hhu
09-14-2019, 10:57 AM
Are you sure about this one? I can only cite personal research, but the south of Donegal was just as covered by undertakers (two of my surname receiving land in Boylagh and Banagh which they sold within a year but to a different undertaker) and Lord Chichester's holdings on the Inishowen peninsula brought an influx of soldiers not to mention the Vaughns and other hangers-on.

My own ancestry includes Chamberlains from Inishowen who were first documented there in Chichester's muster, and Protestant Vances who first appeared on Inishowen in the late 1600s. Although "Vance" in Donegal traces to three areas of the county between early to late 1600s - south, central (Laggan), and north, and ties to 3 different Y-DNA lines which may be a reflection either of NPEs or separate immigration but at least shows general DNA diffusion county-wide.

Granted that's just one example not a population-level comment, but the 1740 Protestant Householder's Index does at least show a pretty even distribution of Protestants around Donegal which I don't think is only a reflection of conversion efforts.

No. Donegal had a very low involvement in the Plantation. It’s Protestant population at its peak was something like 24% and so that’s not high at all.

We have Antrim which is something like 70% Protestant today and County Down. All counties in NI bar Tyrone and Fermanagh are at least 40% Protestant. That disparity is reflected when you cross over to Donegal and the numbers drop off significantly.

You can kind of see this when you look at the map of Presbyterian Churches in Donegal wherein they are on the Border or North east of Donegal.

Really the Plantation only occurred in locations that were close to coasts facing Scotland I.e Bangor, Coleraine, Larne, Derry, Belfast etc. Most of Donegal is 100+ miles from the Scottish mainland.

Sikeliot
09-14-2019, 11:54 AM
No. Donegal had a very low involvement in the Plantation. It’s Protestant population at its peak was something like 24% and so that’s not high at all.

We have Antrim which is something like 70% Protestant today and County Down. All counties in NI bar Tyrone and Fermanagh are at least 40% Protestant. That disparity is reflected when you cross over to Donegal and the numbers drop off significantly.

You can kind of see this when you look at the map of Presbyterian Churches in Donegal wherein they are on the Border or North east of Donegal.

Really the Plantation only occurred in locations that were close to coasts facing Scotland I.e Bangor, Coleraine, Larne, Derry, Belfast etc. Most of Donegal is 100+ miles from the Scottish mainland.


This makes sense then because in the recent study there is a 'N. Ireland" cluster which seems to encompass "native" people from Northern Ireland and neighboring parts of Connacht and Leinster who do not fall into the Donegal cluster... which would mean they received a degree of British admixture lacking in the Donegal cluster, but not as much as the Planter clusters received.

Which would again point to, in my view, using Donegal as a proxy for the original Irish population, and measuring the other Irish clusters as a mixture of that cluster and English, Scottish, Norse, etc.

Can we get these samples on Global25?

FionnSneachta
09-14-2019, 01:58 PM
I had thought that Donegal must not have had much input from the plantation populations due to its isolation. However, looking at the 1659 census, 28% of the Donegal population was English or Scottish. The number of English and Scottish was as low as 13.6% in the barony of Tirhugh and as high as 57.8% in the barony of Raphoe. Fermanagh was at 25% the same time overall wile Monaghan was at 10.6%. The census excluded Mayo and Galway in Connacht. In Connacht, Leitrim had a barony as low as 5.8% and as high as 8.8%. Roscommon was as low as 0.6% and and as high as 9.4% excluding Athlone Borough. Athlone Borough likely had such a high population at 50.6% due to Athlone containing the vital, main bridge over the River Shannon into Connacht and was taken by Charles Coote in 1650. Sligo was as low as 0% and as high as 14.8%. Perhaps then, the isolation of Donegal might be more in relation to the lack of Norman input and other previous populations. Dubhthach made a good note of the different factors in post 12.

Nqp15hhu
09-14-2019, 02:06 PM
Er. According to the 1991 census, Donegal is only 9.5% Protestant.

https://www.wesleyjohnston.com/users/ireland/past/protestants_1861_1991.html

FionnSneachta
09-14-2019, 03:06 PM
Er. According to the 1991 census, Donegal is only 9.5% Protestant.

https://www.wesleyjohnston.com/users/ireland/past/protestants_1861_1991.html

I'm talking about the 1659 census.

Nqp15hhu
09-14-2019, 03:11 PM
Why is that relevant though?

FionnSneachta
09-14-2019, 03:25 PM
Why is that relevant though?

Since it shows possible past input that might have affected the genetics of the current population. In 1901, Donegal was overall 77.3% Catholic. The population was 9.7% Church of Ireland and 8.8% Presbyterian. I agree that there is a larger Protestant population towards the north east but that doesn't mean that Donegal has not had input from English or Scottish populations either. Donegal did have a lot lower of a Protestant population than the majority of Ulster back in 1659 as well.

Nqp15hhu
09-14-2019, 03:39 PM
Since it shows possible past input that might have affected the genetics of the current population. In 1901, Donegal was overall 77.3% Catholic. The population was 9.7% Church of Ireland and 8.8% Presbyterian. I agree that there is a larger Protestant population towards the north east but that doesn't mean that Donegal has not had input from English or Scottish populations either. Donegal did have a lot lower of a Protestant population than the majority of Ulster back in 1659 as well.

Oh ok. I think still any influence would be minimal given the 9.5% figure which no doubt is even lower now.

sktibo
09-14-2019, 03:59 PM
33168

If we look at the chart which shows the drift shared between modern clusters and the ancient Icelandic samples (attached) we see that Donegal does indeed have the strongest match to one sample (ORE A 1) but that Argyll and the Hebrides match SSG A 4 more closely than it does and most interesting of all is that "S Ireland" shares a stronger drift to with KNS A 1 than the more northerly Gaelic samples. This indicates at least some variation in the ancient Gaelic populations of Ireland and Scotland. While Donegal would likely match the ancient Irish the most closely, it doesn't look like it would be ultimately representative of all variation.

Sikeliot
09-15-2019, 02:23 PM
While Donegal would likely match the ancient Irish the most closely, it doesn't look like it would be ultimately representative of all variation.

Other variation would likely be captured by some of the more isolated Munster clusters like what we saw in the Insular Celtic paper. Maybe some part of Cork or Kerry.

sktibo
09-15-2019, 04:53 PM
Other variation would likely be captured by some of the more isolated Munster clusters like what we saw in the Insular Celtic paper. Maybe some part of Cork or Kerry.

Maybe, it's impossible to tell without seeing how all the samples compared with drift before being combined into an average. It's really a shame they combined N Ireland and C Ireland into one average when they did this analysis given how different those are.

Sikeliot
09-17-2019, 01:09 PM
Maybe, it's impossible to tell without seeing how all the samples compared with drift before being combined into an average. It's really a shame they combined N Ireland and C Ireland into one average when they did this analysis given how different those are.

They are different but not extremely so. North Ireland cluster is definitely closer to Central Ireland than to the Donegal cluster from what it looks like to me, although it is somewhat intermediate between the two.

sktibo
09-17-2019, 04:34 PM
They are different but not extremely so. North Ireland cluster is definitely closer to Central Ireland than to the Donegal cluster from what it looks like to me, although it is somewhat intermediate between the two.

They're different enough that it would have been worthwhile to see the results, especially considering the other clusters were not merged like that.

Sikeliot
09-21-2019, 12:37 AM
They're different enough that it would have been worthwhile to see the results, especially considering the other clusters were not merged like that.

They should be separated yes but in the long run they aren't THAT different.

What I want to know is how much English admixture exists in Louth. I know some people from there.

alan
09-21-2019, 01:43 AM
This would not surprise anyone who knows irish history. Donegal in the early medieval period after the Ui Neill conquered the area was for the next 1000 years a place clans expanded from not to. Ulster (other than the thinnest spread along the coast) recieved the least Norman or Viking age permanent settlement of any Provence. A few hedrideah Gaelic Galloglass clans aside, it wasn’t a place people migrated to. Then Donegal had the least successful plantation of the Ulster counties in the plantation of Ulster ( other than a small area in the east of Donegal called the Laggan). It was always going to be the most undiluted representative of Ulster and indeed any Irish population of 1500 years ago. Connaught was riddled with Normans so the idea of Connaught being some sort of genetic museum was daft.

Sikeliot
09-21-2019, 01:51 AM
This would not surprise anyone who knows irish history. Donegal in the early medieval period after the Ui Neill conquered the area was for the next 1000 years a place clans expanded from not to. Ulster (other than the thinnest spread along the coast) recieved the least Norman or Viking age permanent settlement of any Provence. A few hedrideah Gaelic Galloglass clans aside, it wasn’t a place people migrated to. Then Donegal had the least successful plantation of the Ulster counties in the plantation of Ulster ( other than a small area in the east of Donegal called the Laggan). It was always going to be the most undiluted representative of Ulster and indeed any Irish population of 1500 years ago. Connaught was riddled with Normans so the idea of Connaught being some sort of genetic museum was daft.

I agree with everything said here.

The place I want to know about is Louth. It is located right here.. what is their ancestry like? More like Donegal? Ulster? Dublin? Connacht? How much admixture do they have from various sources?

I care because I know a few people from here.

https://www.familysearch.org/wiki/en/img_auth.php/thumb/3/38/County_Louth.jpg/300px-County_Louth.jpg

Jessie
09-21-2019, 03:05 AM
I agree with everything said here.

The place I want to know about is Louth. It is located right here.. what is their ancestry like? More like Donegal? Ulster? Dublin? Connacht? How much admixture do they have from various sources?

I care because I know a few people from here.

https://www.familysearch.org/wiki/en/img_auth.php/thumb/3/38/County_Louth.jpg/300px-County_Louth.jpg

Hopefully someone more knowledgeable than me will answer in more depth but Louth was part of the Pale and there was also Norman and Viking settlement there (i.e. Annagassen and Carlingford Lough). Quite a few well known people are from Louth - Pierce Brosnan, the Corrs, Evanna Lynch from Harry Potter fame and Colin O'Donoghue. I would say it would have it's fair share of admixture if you go by history.

Sikeliot
09-21-2019, 03:12 AM
Hopefully someone more knowledgeable than me will answer in more depth but Louth was part of the Pale and there was also Norman and Viking settlement there (i.e. Annagassen and Carlingford Lough). Quite a few well known people are from Louth - Pierce Brosnan, the Corrs, Evanna Lynch from Harry Potter fame and Colin O'Donoghue. I would say it would have it's fair share of admixture if you go by history.

Pierce Brosnan is from Meath I thought.

But yes, I would assume Louth to be similar to Dublin but on the recent study the distribution of the clusters implied to me it would go into the "Northern Ireland" cluster divided between Mayo, Roscommon, and northern Leinster.

Jessie
09-21-2019, 04:51 AM
Pierce Brosnan is from Meath I thought.

But yes, I would assume Louth to be similar to Dublin but on the recent study the distribution of the clusters implied to me it would go into the "Northern Ireland" cluster divided between Mayo, Roscommon, and northern Leinster.

He was born in Drogheda. I know he considers Navan his home town. I wouldn't think Louth would be the same as Dublin so it makes sense it would be part of northern Leinster and it is a border county.

Sikeliot
09-21-2019, 11:44 AM
He was born in Drogheda. I know he considers Navan his home town. I wouldn't think Louth would be the same as Dublin so it makes sense it would be part of northern Leinster and it is a border county.

This makes sense. It'd seem though that based on that last study, the Northern Ireland cluster which is northern Leinster and Connacht, is genetically intermediate between the Central Ireland cluster (southern Connacht and southern Leinster) and the Donegal one.

This would put people in northern Leinster as genetically continuous with Mayo, Leitrim, and part of Roscommon.

It seems like Ireland is clinal on a north to south basis more than east to west at this point.

sktibo
09-21-2019, 06:00 PM
They should be separated yes but in the long run they aren't THAT different.


In terms of fine-scale differentiation that we're discussing in this study, then yes they are. N Ireland doesn't cluster with C Ireland on the dendrogram. It's got markedly less of the "English" admixture on the admixture charts. On PCA 1 and 2 it is in between N-Ire-Sco and Donegal, separated by Munster from C Ireland. You can say they aren't that different under normal, non-finestructure circumstances but to say they aren't that different when we are discussing this in terms of small scale differences, isn't in line with what the charts show. It was a strange choice to combine N Ireland and C Ireland in the ancient drift comparisons.

Sikeliot
09-21-2019, 06:02 PM
In terms of fine-scale differentiation that we're discussing in this study, then yes they are. N Ireland doesn't cluster with C Ireland on the dendrogram. It's got markedly less of the "English" admixture on the admixture charts. On PCA 1 and 2 it is in between N-Ire-Sco and Donegal, separated by Munster from C Ireland. You can say they aren't that different under normal, non-finestructure circumstances but to say they aren't that different when we are discussing this in terms of small scale differences, isn't in line with what the charts show.

Ah I see. So what this means is the normal mindset of "Leinster = more English" is not necessarily true, because southern Connacht and adjacent parts of Munster such as Clare, have more English than do places in the north of Leinster.

I look at Ireland by how much English admixture they have because this is what I believe creates most of the cline.

sktibo
09-21-2019, 06:09 PM
Ah I see. So what this means is the normal mindset of "Leinster = more English" is not necessarily true, because southern Connacht and adjacent parts of Munster such as Clare, have more English than do places in the north of Leinster.

I look at Ireland by how much English admixture they have because this is what I believe creates most of the cline.

Unless, of course, another study comes out using the data and the clusters become re-categorized yet again! I find it very interesting that this one does not follow county lines or geographic boundaries as closely as the last ones did.

Wouldn't be surprised, I suspect it's English + some kind continental admixture that pulls it to some degree, but Munster does have signs of differentiation in other ways, such as its pull to the left on the t-SNE and the drift with a different ancient Gaelic sample, although that drift isn't hugely increased from the shared drift with the Hebrideans. Maybe you're right about that, can't rule it out. When the introduction of continental admixture begins in the Isles is currently being debated, it would appear, but personally I think it could have begun noticeably with some Gaulish settlement prior to the Roman occupation of Britain.

Sikeliot
09-21-2019, 06:12 PM
Unless, of course, another study comes out using the data and the clusters become re-categorized yet again! I find it very interesting that this one does not follow county lines or geographic boundaries as closely as the last ones did.

Wouldn't be surprised, I suspect it's English + some kind continental admixture that pulls it to some degree, but Munster does have signs of differentiation in other ways, such as its pull to the left on the t-SNE and the drift with a different ancient Gaelic sample, although that drift isn't hugely increased from the shared drift with the Hebrideans. Maybe you're right about that, can't rule it out. When the introduction of continental admixture begins in the Isles is currently being debated, it would appear, but personally I think it could have begun noticeably with some Gaulish settlement prior to the Roman occupation of Britain.



I think either way what all of the studies have shown that is consistent is Leinster and Connacht overlap the most, of all the regions. I am puzzled though why in some studies, Connacht is one cluster by itself, and in this one it is divided into two.

The northern parts of Munster like Clare and Tipperary might be more akin to Central Ireland than to Cork/Kerry.

Sikeliot
09-21-2019, 09:29 PM
So here is my other question.

In the Irish DNA Atlas paper they had a Northern Ireland/Ulster cluster about which they said:


The Ulster cluster itself shows the greatest genetic distance from Britain, in both our PCA and Fst analysis, despite its geographic proximity to Britain. Given that we have identified groups within the north of Ireland that do have genetic links to Britain, i.e. the N Ireland clusters, Ulster most likely represents individuals of ‘Gaelic’ ancestry that have remained genetically isolated from Britain – which reflects the demographic and political history of the region.

So my question is this... is this more comparable to the Donegal clusters in the Scotland study, or to the Northern Ireland cluster which also includes places like northern Connacht and northern Leinster?

spruithean
09-21-2019, 09:36 PM
This is what the Scottish paper said about Donegal:


663 Previous analyses of population structure within Ireland6,20 had only sparse coverage in the 664 north-west of the island, County Donegal. A larger sample has identified considerable structure there. 665 Whilst our sampling of the north-west of Ireland is the densest so far, it is an open question to the 666 geographic extent of this cluster along the coast of Donegal and neighbouring Irish counties to the 667 south.

Nqp15hhu
09-21-2019, 10:46 PM
Ah I see. So what this means is the normal mindset of "Leinster = more English" is not necessarily true, because southern Connacht and adjacent parts of Munster such as Clare, have more English than do places in the north of Leinster.

I look at Ireland by how much English admixture they have because this is what I believe creates most of the cline.
Um so the Scottish influence is irrelevant then?

Sikeliot
09-21-2019, 11:31 PM
Um so the Scottish influence is irrelevant then?

Scottish influence is mostly in Antrim and Down in Northern Ireland.

spruithean
09-21-2019, 11:59 PM
Scottish influence is mostly in Antrim and Down in Northern Ireland.

No, not really. If I recall correctly, Donegal, Tyrone, Antrim, Down, Fermanagh saw Scottish settlement in the Plantation period. This can be seen in the various historical documents that pertain to this period with Scottish & English undertakers, servitors, etc. I also seem to recall that Antrim and Down were private plantations while the remainder were not.

Sikeliot
09-22-2019, 12:16 AM
No, not really. If I recall correctly, Donegal, Tyrone, Antrim, Down, Fermanagh saw Scottish settlement in the Plantation period. This can be seen in the various historical documents that pertain to this period with Scottish & English undertakers, servitors, etc. I also seem to recall that Antrim and Down were private plantations while the remainder were not.

Antrim and Down have the highest percentage of Protestants if I remember correctly so that is why I thought this.

spruithean
09-22-2019, 12:19 AM
Antrim and Down have the highest percentage of Protestants if I remember correctly so that is why I thought this.

That doesn't necessarily translate over to them being the highest place of settlement, we have to account for migration out of Ireland (to the USA and maritime Canada) from areas that saw settlement from Scotland.

sktibo
09-22-2019, 01:24 AM
So here is my other question.

In the Irish DNA Atlas paper they had a Northern Ireland/Ulster cluster about which they said:



So my question is this... is this more comparable to the Donegal clusters in the Scotland study, or to the Northern Ireland cluster which also includes places like northern Connacht and northern Leinster?

Let's look at the maps and compare: to me, it looks like many of the N Ireland markers were (purple cross) Ulster markers in the IDA, most notably the one in Eastern Scotland (not shown in attached images.)

3334333344

Nqp15hhu
09-22-2019, 03:10 AM
That group doesn’t appear to be Ulster Scots though.

Sikeliot
09-22-2019, 11:43 AM
Let's look at the maps and compare: to me, it looks like many of the N Ireland markers were (purple cross) Ulster markers in the IDA, most notably the one in Eastern Scotland (not shown in attached images.)

3334333344


Here, the red Connacht cluster seems to overlap in geographical distribution to the North Ireland cluster in the new study, but the old study grouped that cluster with Dublin and Central Ireland on a genetic basis! Very different implications than the new study. Which is correct?

Sikeliot
09-22-2019, 10:43 PM
Another question I have is this -- could that North Leinster/North Connacht cluster in the new study really have as little English as the Donegal samples, but not completely plot with them due to more Viking input? This might be likely to me, because I have some people on GEDmatch from Mayo who shift toward Scandinavia, not toward England.

sktibo
09-23-2019, 01:55 AM
Here, the red Connacht cluster seems to overlap in geographical distribution to the North Ireland cluster in the new study, but the old study grouped that cluster with Dublin and Central Ireland on a genetic basis! Very different implications than the new study. Which is correct?

What's really interesting is that we see Donegal split off into it's own (was it three?) clusters unique from the rest of the general Northern Ireland cluster from the IDA. Hard to tell which is correct, personally I'm inclined to go to the one that uses the samples from Scotland, simply because it has more data. But how much would that change if more samples were added in Ireland or Britain? Interestingly we can still see a divide between the "Connacht" markers and the "C Ireland" markers in Connacht in the IDA map.

Sikeliot
09-23-2019, 02:22 AM
What's really interesting is that we see Donegal split off into it's own (was it three?) clusters unique from the rest of the general Northern Ireland cluster from the IDA. Hard to tell which is correct, personally I'm inclined to go to the one that uses the samples from Scotland, simply because it has more data. But how much would that change if more samples were added in Ireland or Britain? Interestingly we can still see a divide between the "Connacht" markers and the "C Ireland" markers in Connacht in the IDA map.

It almost looks like to me the "Connacht" cluster in the older study corresponds to the newer study's "N. Ireland" (Northern Connacht/Northern Leinster) cluster and that the "Ulster" cluster in the original study, which they said has the greatest distance to Britain genetically, is a different cluster altogether.

sktibo
09-23-2019, 04:16 AM
It almost looks like to me the "Connacht" cluster in the older study corresponds to the newer study's "N. Ireland" (Northern Connacht/Northern Leinster) cluster and that the "Ulster" cluster in the original study, which they said has the greatest distance to Britain genetically, is a different cluster altogether.

We've got quite a few markers which were "Ulster" in the IDA and are "N Ireland" in the Scotland paper, here's a couple noticeable ones I've circled:

3336633367

Unexpectedly, the green Dublin triangle on top of the upper circled group also appears to become an N Ireland marker.

Sikeliot
09-23-2019, 12:43 PM
We've got quite a few markers which were "Ulster" in the IDA and are "N Ireland" in the Scotland paper, here's a couple noticeable ones I've circled:

3336633367

Unexpectedly, the green Dublin triangle on top of the upper circled group also appears to become an N Ireland marker.

So it looks like "Connacht" in the old study corresponds to the new study's "N. Ireland" but the old study also didn't include a lot of the people in that cluster that the new study included in it, especially those from Ulster.

The old study included Donegal in its "Ulster" cluster.

So either way we do see a difference between Ulster and northern Leinster/Connacht, and then one from southern Leinster/Connacht.

Dubhthach
09-23-2019, 03:06 PM
So it looks like "Connacht" in the old study corresponds to the new study's "N. Ireland" but the old study also didn't include a lot of the people in that cluster that the new study included in it, especially those from Ulster.

The old study included Donegal in its "Ulster" cluster.

So either way we do see a difference between Ulster and northern Leinster/Connacht, and then one from southern Leinster/Connacht.

http://compsoc.nuigalway.ie/~dubhthach/gaeilge-isoglosses.png

The dialects of Irish are differentiated from each other on a North to South clinal basis.

Of course I imagine if they went back and add 100 people from Kerry/West Cork into their study base that the clusters they generated would shift around again. No doubt result in return of a SW distinct cluster.

Sikeliot
09-24-2019, 03:39 PM
So what a lot of this shows is on a genetic basis, Ireland has more of a north to south cline, rather than an east to west one.

Dubhthach
09-25-2019, 08:58 AM
So what a lot of this shows is on a genetic basis, Ireland has more of a north to south cline, rather than an east to west one.

well that makes sense from an early medieval historic point of view as well a Geographic point of view. Ireland is unusual that geographically we have mountains on the periphery/coast and flat inland plain, this results in interesting drainage and of course build up of Bogs in former lakelands in the midlands. (every large bog is basically a former lake). Prime example of this geography is situation with Shannon (longest river in Ireland and Britain). In the topmost part of it's navigation it only drops by 18 meters over 250km's. In the 20km from Lough Derg to Limerick it drops 30meters (this is why the first major Hydro-Electric powerstation in the state was built there in the 1920's).

From an early medieval point of view (eg. before 1169) the people on either side of the Shannon (Roscommon/Westmeath) though technically belonging to different overkingdoms were genealogically related. After all the Southern Uí Néill and the Connachta were both members of the Dál Cuinn.

This area is often known as a Central Plain and stretches from Galway, Roscommon in the west to Dublin and is underlayed by a Limestone bedrock. In general area is very good for grazing.

https://www.gsi.ie/images/images/ireland_map.jpg

https://www.wesleyjohnston.com/users/ireland/maps/island_agriculture.gif

Note Donegal, Erris (NW Mayo), Connemara (Westernmost Galway) and South Kerry/West Cork.

https://render.fineartamerica.com/images/rendered/default/front/spiral-notebook/images/artworkimages/medium/1/republic-of-ireland-country-3d-render-topographic-map-border-frank-ramspott.jpg

Sikeliot
09-25-2019, 11:55 AM
well that makes sense from an early medieval historic point of view as well a Geographic point of view. Ireland is unusual that geographically we have mountains on the periphery/coast and flat inland plain, this results in interesting drainage and of course build up of Bogs in former lakelands in the midlands. (every large bog is basically a former lake). Prime example of this geography is situation with Shannon (longest river in Ireland and Britain). In the topmost part of it's navigation it only drops by 18 meters over 250km's. In the 20km from Lough Derg to Limerick it drops 30meters (this is why the first major Hydro-Electric powerstation in the state was built there in the 1920's).

From an early medieval point of view (eg. before 1169) the people on either side of the Shannon (Roscommon/Westmeath) though technically belonging to different overkingdoms were genealogically related. After all the Southern Uí Néill and the Connachta were both members of the Dál Cuinn.

This area is often known as a Central Plain and stretches from Galway, Roscommon in the west to Dublin and is underlayed by a Limestone bedrock. In general area is very good for grazing.

https://www.gsi.ie/images/images/ireland_map.jpg

https://www.wesleyjohnston.com/users/ireland/maps/island_agriculture.gif

Note Donegal, Erris (NW Mayo), Connemara (Westernmost Galway) and South Kerry/West Cork.

https://render.fineartamerica.com/images/rendered/default/front/spiral-notebook/images/artworkimages/medium/1/republic-of-ireland-country-3d-render-topographic-map-border-frank-ramspott.jpg


If you look at a map of Norman settlement in Ireland, the regions labeled "fringe" in the map above correspond somewhat to regions with limited Norman settlement. Likely because they were not advantageous to the Normans in terms of agricultural capacity?

But I do think based on this map that lack of Norman settlement may be one key reason why the Donegal clusters are outlying.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b8/Ireland_1300.png

FionnSneachta
09-25-2019, 05:53 PM
If you look at a map of Norman settlement in Ireland, the regions labeled "fringe" in the map above correspond somewhat to regions with limited Norman settlement. Likely because they were not advantageous to the Normans in terms of agricultural capacity?

But I do think based on this map that lack of Norman settlement may be one key reason why the Donegal clusters are outlying.

I have an alternative map of Ireland in 1500 that is similar but has more land held by native Irish in Connacht, Leinster and Ulster.

33408

Sikeliot
09-26-2019, 01:00 AM
I have an alternative map of Ireland in 1500 that is similar but has more land held by native Irish in Connacht, Leinster and Ulster.

33408

Is "McMurrough" the same family that would become Murphy? Since I presume Murphy is an Anglicization.

FionnSneachta
09-26-2019, 09:47 AM
Is "McMurrough" the same family that would become Murphy? Since I presume Murphy is an Anglicization.

McMurrough is an Anglicisation also. Murphy and McMurrough are both surnames derived from descendant of Murchadh but it doesn't necessarily mean that they're of the one family. Murphy is a variant of two Irish surnames: Ó Murchadha/Ó Murchadh (descendant of "Murchadh"), and Mac Murchaidh/Mac Murchadh" (son of "Murchadh"). There is also a McMorrow surname with the same meaning. Dermot McMurrough, the last Irish king of Leinster, is infamous in Irish history for inviting the first Anglo-Normans into Ireland, to help him fight the High-King Rory O'Conor and Tigernán O'Rourke, the king of Breifne.

Dubhthach
09-26-2019, 11:16 AM
Is "McMurrough" the same family that would become Murphy? Since I presume Murphy is an Anglicization.

The mainline of this family became 'Kavanagh' which started off as a Agnomen for their branch:

eg. Mac Murchadha Caomhánach -- denoting their descent from Domhnall Caomhánach mac Murchada -- eldest son of Diarmait Mac Murchada, the man who brought the Normans to Ireland so as to regain his kingship of Leinster.

Caomhánach is adjective form of the name Caomhán (Keevan -- different but related to from Caoimhín which gives Kevin) and is due to Domhnall been associated with St. Caomhán.

By the 1500's the family had 'reconquered' land stretching into Carlow as part of wider 'Gaelic Reconquista' which saw periperhal parts of the Colony fall under Gaelic lordship (either directly or forced to pay 'Black rents' eg. protection money) -- thence in that map you see a join up between North Wexford/Wicklow and Laois/Offaly where the Ó Mordha (Moore's) would rule until the Tudor period.

Men with names such as Kavanagh, Kinsella (another branch of the Mac Murchadha), Byrne and O'Toole often show up as part of Haplogroup R1b-Z255.

Dubhthach
09-26-2019, 12:01 PM
Alot of these maps used on Wikipedia etc are sub-optimal. I was doing some googling and came across following. Now it's talking specifically about the aristrocratic networks that were in conflict due to the spilt of the O'Connor's of Connacht lordship into opposing Donn (Brown) and Ruadh (red) factions. Still it might offer a framework. Will see if I can edit it later:

https://static.cambridge.org/binary/version/id/urn:cambridge.org:id:binary:20180329133900540-0610:S0021937117002374:S0021937117002374_fig1t.jpe g

Figure 1 “Lordships in Ireland, c.1390.” Note: This map is based on an earlier version compiled by Kenneth Nicholls; see Patrick J. Duffy, David Edwards, and Elizabeth FitzPatrick, “Introduction: Recovering Gaelic Ireland, c.1250–c.1650,” in Gaelic Ireland, c.1250–c.1650: Land, Lordship and Settlement, ed. Patrick J. Duffy, David Edwards, and Elizabeth FitzPatrick (Dublin, 2001), 21–73, at 24–25.

It comes from "Richard II and the Wider Gaelic World: A Reassessment"

Journal of British Studies, Volume 57, Issue 2
April 2018 , pp. 221-252
Simon Egan

https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/journal-of-british-studies/article/richard-ii-and-the-wider-gaelic-world-a-reassessment/B8E02F675EF3265A22620B3E199AC460/core-reader

In the context of Connacht it's worth pointing out that aside from the major competing Burke lordships (Mayo vs. Clanrickard) the following are also of 'Cambro-Norman origin'

Mac Jordan
Mac Morris
MacCostello
MacDavid Burke


https://static.cambridge.org/binary/version/id/urn:cambridge.org:id:binary:20180329133900540-0610:S0021937117002374:S0021937117002374_tab1.gif

What should be remembered is that magnates like the Clanrickards had native vassals/sub-lords, good example in that lis it the O'Shaughnessy of South Galway.

CillKenny
09-26-2019, 01:12 PM
Is "McMurrough" the same family that would become Murphy? Since I presume Murphy is an Anglicization.

The McMurrough-Kavanaghs are the group descended from the Murchadh mentioned by FionnSneachta. Most are now just Kavanaghs. Along with Kavanaghs there are also Byrnes, O'Tooles and Murphys of Wexford under Z255-ZZ7, which provides some evidence that some early genealogies were not fiction. I expect many other examples can also be pointed to. I am looking forward to Bart Jaski's talk at GGI next month which is on this very topic.

Sikeliot
09-27-2019, 02:28 AM
Here is my other question. On a genetic level, what is Tipperary like? is it in the "Central Ireland" cluster like Galway or southern Leinster, or is it more like other parts of Munster?

CillKenny
09-27-2019, 11:13 AM
Here is my other question. On a genetic level, what is Tipperary like? is it in the "Central Ireland" cluster like Galway or southern Leinster, or is it more like other parts of Munster?

Mostly like Central Ireland with the south west being more like the Munster group. Tipperary has long had a north south split which was even reflected in local government structures until relatively recently

Sikeliot
09-27-2019, 11:27 AM
Mostly like Central Ireland with the south west being more like the Munster group. Tipperary has long had a north south split which was even reflected in local government structures until relatively recently

If your username is accurate and you are from Kilkenny you would likely be in that Central Ireland cluster also.

CillKenny
09-27-2019, 03:09 PM
If your username is accurate and you are from Kilkenny you would likely be in that Central Ireland cluster also.

Yes both parents likely are from that cluster. Mother is from Tipperary-Kilkenny border. Father is Wicklow-Wexford border. Username is a play on my surname rather than geographic. Male line is part of the Z255-ZZ7 group that split off from the O'Byrne group before surnames were adopted.

Sikeliot
09-27-2019, 11:43 PM
Yes both parents likely are from that cluster. Mother is from Tipperary-Kilkenny border. Father is Wicklow-Wexford border. Username is a play on my surname rather than geographic. Male line is part of the Z255-ZZ7 group that split off from the O'Byrne group before surnames were adopted.

Ahh I see.

So to make sure I understand, my understanding is the clusters in order of MOST to LEAST British ancestry should be:

1. Northern Ireland Planter clusters
2. Central Ireland -- southern Connacht, southern Leinster, northern Munster
3. Munster
4. North Ireland -- Ulster Gaelic population, northern Leinster and northern Connacht
5. Donegal

Is this correct?

And is it also possible that there was diversity amongst Gaelic Irish that predates even Vikings and also partially explains these clusters in addition to British input?

CillKenny
09-28-2019, 04:02 PM
Ahh I see.

So to make sure I understand, my understanding is the clusters in order of MOST to LEAST British ancestry should be:

1. Northern Ireland Planter clusters
2. Central Ireland -- southern Connacht, southern Leinster, northern Munster
3. Munster
4. North Ireland -- Ulster Gaelic population, northern Leinster and northern Connacht
5. Donegal

Is this correct?

And is it also possible that there was diversity amongst Gaelic Irish that predates even Vikings and also partially explains these clusters in addition to British input?

It could be either - I would suspect that it is not as recent as the Norse or the more modern British. Ireland has long had a north south divide with south west Munster probably representing the earlier groups better than the rest. The book of invasions may hold some kernel of truth in terms of the different groups and the timing of their arrival. This is how people on this island saw themselves well before the Norse arrived.

Sikeliot
09-28-2019, 08:06 PM
It could be either - I would suspect that it is not as recent as the Norse or the more modern British. Ireland has long had a north south divide with south west Munster probably representing the earlier groups better than the rest. The book of invasions may hold some kernel of truth in terms of the different groups and the timing of their arrival. This is how people on this island saw themselves well before the Norse arrived.

Then why is the Donegal cluster genetically furthest from Britain and more isolated? SW Munster is probably the next, but my question stands.

Nqp15hhu
09-29-2019, 12:05 AM
The important part of Britain is England. Donegal is nowhere near England.

That and it’s desolate landscape is the reason for the limited migration or immigration.

CillKenny
09-29-2019, 10:02 AM
The important part of Britain is England. Donegal is nowhere near England.

That and it’s desolate landscape is the reason for the limited migration or immigration.

I would tend to agree- both Donegal and south west Munster are isolated and, although attractive to the modern eye for scenery, to people who had to eke out a living from the land they were not attractive.

Sikeliot
09-29-2019, 12:32 PM
I would tend to agree- both Donegal and south west Munster are isolated and, although attractive to the modern eye for scenery, to people who had to eke out a living from the land they were not attractive.

What about Kilkenny?

I know Wexford is an area that comes out shifted toward England when sampled. Would Kilkenny be the same?

Nqp15hhu
06-02-2021, 04:19 AM
This is from the recent study on Scotland.

An article on the study stated that "The researchers were also able to analyse the county of Donegal in more detail than before, revealing it as the most genetically isolated region of Ireland observed to date. This isolation shows little evidence of the migrations that have impacted the rest of Ulster."

The Irish DNA Atlas and the Insular Celtic study did both find that some part of "Gaelic" Ulster was an outlier, but not more than south Munster which appeared to be the most distinct region. By contrast, in this study it appears Munster is genetically continuous with what is called "Central Ireland" which expands across the central part of Ireland from Connacht to Leinster, and does not appear to be an outlier at all.

So my question is this... which is correct? And why would Donegal be different than other parts of Ireland?

https://www.rcsi.com/dublin/-/media/feature/news/dublin/2019/scottish-dna-map.jpg

I know this is well past time now. But just speaking geographically. Even though Donegal is part of Ulster and connected to NI, it’s actually geographically isolated.

There is a chain of mountains that run down its centre from North to south. You have to drive over those mountains to get to the western coast or western side of Donegal. Not to mention that the far south of Donegal is as far south as enniskillen or maybe further south.

I know where I live in northern County L’Derry it is a good solid 2 hour, 90 mile drive to the far west of Donegal. While Bangor is about 90 minutes and Bangor is not close to here.

It is only really the eastern parts of Donegal that are connected to Northern Ireland and the rest of Ulster. The NW and W parts of Donegal are very isolated.

The landscape is rugged, and very barren. It is extremely wet and a region that was highly impoverished in the past. Even now it’s very disconnected.

There are few green fields in western Donegal, it’s mostly bogg and hills:

Northern Ireland:

https://i.imgur.com/Sg0twaJ.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/nAlCYC1.jpg

Donegal:
https://i.imgur.com/pPYyMFn.jpg

Nqp15hhu
06-02-2021, 04:27 AM
So as above I am not surprised at these results. I have Donegal links through my mum’s side and have a lot of matches who are 95%+ Irish on AncestryDna, several only have Donegal as a Genetic Community, they don’t even have the Ulster Genetic Communities which in itself is very odd. These people’s families are from hilly areas, their ancestors hardly moved at all, I wouldn’t be surprised if they don’t have a single plantation ancestor.

Another location is the sperrins and in and around western Tyrone. Again these areas are very isolated geographically due to the high hills, there was very little immigration there. Expect to find high Irish percentages there too.

Nqp15hhu
06-02-2021, 04:30 AM
Still interesting to me is that Connacht was predicted by many to be an outlier and be some "pure" Irish holdout but this is the third study showing that they are part of the same genetic clusters as Leinster, and that they were anything but shielded from admixture.

So the question is then, is the Donegal cluster representing a cluster that has very limited/comparatively low English, Scottish, Norman, and Viking admixture?

Not really. Connaught is a flat plain but is on the same longitude as England. Whilst Donegal is disconnected from the rest of Ulster by mountains and is not near the populated parts of Great Britain. It makes sense.

Perhaps there might be some links with the Hebrides but not England.

Nqp15hhu
06-02-2021, 04:37 AM
Are you sure about this one? I can only cite personal research, but the south of Donegal was just as covered by undertakers (two of my surname receiving land in Boylagh and Banagh which they sold within a year but to a different undertaker) and Lord Chichester's holdings on the Inishowen peninsula brought an influx of soldiers not to mention the Vaughns and other hangers-on.

My own ancestry includes Chamberlains from Inishowen who were first documented there in Chichester's muster, and Protestant Vances who first appeared on Inishowen in the late 1600s. Although "Vance" in Donegal traces to three areas of the county between early to late 1600s - south, central (Laggan), and north, and ties to 3 different Y-DNA lines which may be a reflection either of NPEs or separate immigration but at least shows general DNA diffusion county-wide.

Granted that's just one example not a population-level comment, but the 1740 Protestant Householder's Index does at least show a pretty even distribution of Protestants around Donegal which I don't think is only a reflection of conversion efforts.

Donegal has a very, very small protestant population. It’s only about 15% and they’re all clustered near the border. It’s very much a place with minimal plantation input.

My landlord in my area actually was initially tasked with planting Donegal but gave up and came here because the land was useless in Donegal and unlike Scotland.

Dubhthach
06-02-2021, 09:37 AM
I know this is well past time now. But just speaking geographically. Even though Donegal is part of Ulster and connected to NI, it’s actually geographically isolated.

There is a chain of mountains that run down its centre from North to south. You have to drive over those mountains to get to the western coast or western side of Donegal. Not to mention that the far south of Donegal is as far south as enniskillen or maybe further south.

I know where I live in northern County L’Derry it is a good solid 2 hour, 90 mile drive to the far west of Donegal. While Bangor is about 90 minutes and Bangor is not close to here.

It is only really the eastern parts of Donegal that are connected to Northern Ireland and the rest of Ulster. The NW and W parts of Donegal are very isolated.

The landscape is rugged, and very barren. It is extremely wet and a region that was highly impoverished in the past. Even now it’s very disconnected.

There are few green fields in western Donegal, it’s mostly bogg and hills:

https://i.imgur.com/Sg0twaJ.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/nAlCYC1.jpg

Donegal:
https://i.imgur.com/pPYyMFn.jpg

It's worth pointing out that Donegal had the third largest population of any of the 9 counties of Ulster in 1911 cesus. It made up nearly 11% of total population with higher population than:

Armagh
Cavan
Derry
Fermanagh
Monaghan
Tyrone


Only Down and Antrim had higher individual county populations, which given economic position of Belfast in 1911 is hardly surprising.

However you do have a point about geographic remoteness, It's one of reasons why the Irish language has persisted in Donegal as a community language to this day. The same was also somewhat true of the Sperrins on the Tyrone/Derry border where an Irish speaking community lasted into the 1940's (and the Glens of Antrim)

If we look at the linguistic data in the 1770's it's obvious that the areas with lowest Irish speaking in Donegal is the heartland of the "Laggan" where highest protestant population is found (Raphoe North and South baronies):

https://compsoc.ie/~dubhthach/Gaeilge/Donegal-1771-small.jpg

Here's a stitch of two pages from the Gaeltacht Commission report using the 1911 census data

https://compsoc.ie/~dubhthach/1911-Ulster01.png

As you can see the areas with highest level of Irish speaking are those which are most remote, these areas also often had lowest level of population with ancestry tracing back to post 1609 period.

https://compsoc.ie/~dubhthach/mapping-ulster-scots-1.jpg

https://compsoc.ie/~dubhthach/mapping-ulster-scots-2.jpg

J1 DYS388=13
06-03-2021, 04:27 PM
1/4 of my ancestry is Catholic from County Donegal (Curran, M222). Ancestry has identified and matched me to a trio of genetic communities in the north. My guess is that the reason my Curran ancestors were from the west coast was because they were forced there after 1603.
44957

Nqp15hhu
06-06-2021, 09:25 PM
It's worth pointing out that Donegal had the third largest population of any of the 9 counties of Ulster in 1911 cesus. It made up nearly 11% of total population with higher population than:

Armagh
Cavan
Derry
Fermanagh
Monaghan
Tyrone


Only Down and Antrim had higher individual county populations, which given economic position of Belfast in 1911 is hardly surprising.

However you do have a point about geographic remoteness, It's one of reasons why the Irish language has persisted in Donegal as a community language to this day. The same was also somewhat true of the Sperrins on the Tyrone/Derry border where an Irish speaking community lasted into the 1940's (and the Glens of Antrim)

If we look at the linguistic data in the 1770's it's obvious that the areas with lowest Irish speaking in Donegal is the heartland of the "Laggan" where highest protestant population is found (Raphoe North and South baronies):

https://compsoc.ie/~dubhthach/Gaeilge/Donegal-1771-small.jpg

Here's a stitch of two pages from the Gaeltacht Commission report using the 1911 census data

https://compsoc.ie/~dubhthach/1911-Ulster01.png

As you can see the areas with highest level of Irish speaking are those which are most remote, these areas also often had lowest level of population with ancestry tracing back to post 1609 period.

https://compsoc.ie/~dubhthach/mapping-ulster-scots-1.jpg

https://compsoc.ie/~dubhthach/mapping-ulster-scots-2.jpg

Thanks, very informed. Was this high population due to a high birth rate but in relative isolation? That would be interesting to know.

Dubhthach
06-09-2021, 04:28 PM
Thanks, very informed. Was this high population due to a high birth rate but in relative isolation? That would be interesting to know.

Well I would think it's also reflective of the size of the county after all 9 counties of Ulster has an area of 21,552 km² the per county area breakdown is:

Area of Antrim: 3,046 km²
Area of Armagh: 1,254 km
Area of Cavan: 1,931 km2
Area of Derry: 2,075 km2
Area of Donegal: 4,861 km2
Area of Down: 2,466 km2
Area of Fermanagh: 1,691 km2
Area of Monaghan: 1,295 km2
Area of Tyrone: 3,263 km2


Donegal is the single biggest county in Ulster by area (over 22% of area of province) but of course large sections of it are low density areas due to Mountains etc.

What's interesting is population in early/mid 19th century context so for example adopted from below: (Carrickfergus was merged into Antrim figure)
https://www.libraryireland.com/articles/irishpopulation2DPJ1-14/index.php


Antrim: 323,306
Armagh: 220,651
Cavan: 228,050
Derry: 222,416
Donegal: 298,104
Down: 352,571
Fermanagh: 149,555
Monaghan: 195,532
Tyrone: 302,943


Total: 2,293,128 (Donegal = 12.99%).

Given the geography most of Donegal's population was gonna be concentrated along the coast and at with mountains that form spine of county forming a barrier of movement. This can be seen to an extent using modern census data showing areas with no inhabitants:

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/ea/33/80/ea3380284da1c9ae4860765acbe42870.jpg

This same mechanism of isolation is one of reasons why the Irish language has persisted to this day as community language in NW Donegal as it has in South Connemara (note the large areas of west Galway with low/no population) and in West Kerry Gaeltacht on the Dingle peninsula.

If you look at Ancestry Genetic Communities they have large number of GC's in Western Galway/Connemara which is probably reflective of high barriers of movement up until the 20th century.