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ZephyrousMandaru
01-05-2014, 05:33 PM
I recently reviewed this spreadsheet, and noticed something interested occurred between K=4 and K=6. In K=4, Iraqi Jews, who are ethno-religious minority related to Assyrians, Iraqi Mandaeans and others. They exhibit around 3-4% East African admixture at K=4, which is subsequently subsumed at higher Ks such as in K=6 where the East African seemingly disappears. In its place though, is the Red Sea/Arabian component which Iraqi Jews average at 43.11%. From this, I have begun to hypothesize that perhaps the original carriers of this Red Sea/Arabian component were an East African-like West Eurasian population.

It seems that Middle Easterners, even ethnic minorities such as the Assyrians, Eastern Mizrahim Jews, Mandaeans, Druze and Samaritans share this component, and accounts for the majority of ancient African admixture in Middle Easterners.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/lv?key=0AqWOT2m6btAGdEpjTExTRG1NU1NKRnJfd3hOeWkwdk E&type=view&gid=3&f=true&sortcolid=-1&sortasc=true&page=2&rowsperpage=250

lgmayka
01-05-2014, 11:19 PM
Arabia may have been AMH's primary stepping-stone out of East Africa (http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2013/12/arabian-origin-of-upper-paleolithic-in.html). Modern Arabian DNA might then appear to be mildly East African:
---
The essential point is that, from a technological standpoint, the Arabian Nubian Complex provides the missing link to the Levantine MP-UP transition, exhibited at Boker Tachtit and ‘Ain Difla. In both cases, the traditional Tabun D-type reduction strategy is suddenly replaced by bidirectional preparation - the hallmark of the Arabian Nubian. Moreover, in the past few months, a number of Nubian and late Nubian (Mudayyan) sites have been discovered in central and northern Saudi. Once these data are published, we’ll be able to finalize our paper and present a more complete picture of this proposition. At the very least, I’m happy to have stirred the pot a bit and provided a counterpoint to the absolutely ridiculous “coasting out of Africa” paradigm.
---

newtoboard
01-10-2014, 03:27 AM
Where do you think this EA shifted population expanded from?

ZephyrousMandaru
01-10-2014, 09:26 AM
Where do you think this EA shifted population expanded from?

If I had guess, probably between the Southern Levant near the Red Sea or Arabia.

newtoboard
01-10-2014, 12:23 PM
What implications would that have with regards to Africa? Does that mean Egypt ad the Horn were more West Eurasian like in ancient times or more African like?

ZephyrousMandaru
01-10-2014, 12:36 PM
What implications would that have with regards to Africa? Does that mean Egypt ad the Horn were more West Eurasian like in ancient times or more African like?

That's impossible to establish without ancient DNA.

newtoboard
01-18-2014, 01:39 PM
This might be a stupid question but how did North Africans end up becoming a mostly West a Eurasian populatio

Jean M
01-18-2014, 02:11 PM
This might be a stupid question but how did North Africans end up becoming a mostly West Eurasian population

Multiple waves from the Near East and Europe, starting with the Palaeolithic carriers of mtDNA U and ending with European colonists in modern times. See http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/mediterraneans.shtml

newtoboard
01-18-2014, 04:16 PM
That's impossible to establish without ancient DNA.

Yes hopefully that will come soon. I wonder what happened to the paper on the Y DNA of Ancient Egypt that was supposed to come out soon.

ZephyrousMandaru
01-18-2014, 07:50 PM
This is just pure speculation, but I think this Red Sea component probably represents an early proto-West Eurasian group, that was one of the first to expand out of Africa. Hence the African affinities of Red Sea.

newtoboard
01-18-2014, 07:51 PM
This is just pure speculation, but I think this Red Sea component probably represents an early proto-West Eurasian group, that was one of the first to expand out of Africa. Hence the African affinities of Red Sea.

Probably carrying yDNA E IMO.

Ignis90
01-18-2014, 07:55 PM
While African influx in the Near East is very likely - the shared biogeographical region with North Africa (Saharo-Arabian region, previously or still part of the Palearctic ecozone depending on your prefered model) and common Afroasiatic heritage are some clues - I doubt there is very high actual African ancestry (as in not derived from Eurasia at some point) deeper in the Near East because there is very little difference between West Asians when it comes to African affinity. Besides, there is more and more evidence of Eurasian influx in Subsaharan Africa like the indirect Eurasian ancestry of the once thought pristine South African hunter-gatherers (Pickrell et al.) and more recently, the very small Neanderthal ancestry detected in Yoruba (http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v505/n7481/full/nature12886.html)
The ADMIXTURE run of Lazaridis et al. is also in line with the hidden Eurasian ancestry of Subsaharan Africans with minor Eurasian admix at lower Ks in all Africans.

The new Basal Eurasian thing makes everything a little bit more complicated because most Africans (with very slight variation) fall in the West Eurasian-African (https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B9o3EYTdM8lQQVZ6bjZxeUR6bzg/edit) axis in the first 2 dimensions of global PCA plots, not with other Eurasians.


So, I think there is definitely small African ancestry in minorities of the Near East such as Mesopotamian Jews and Assyrians but not as much as the the Red Sea component suggests (it's still overwhelmingly an out-of-Africa component).

ZephyrousMandaru
01-18-2014, 10:36 PM
While African influx in the Near East is very likely - the shared biogeographical region with North Africa (Saharo-Arabian region, previously or still part of the Palearctic ecozone depending on your prefered model) and common Afroasiatic heritage are some clues - I doubt there is very high actual African ancestry (as in not derived from Eurasia at some point) deeper in the Near East because there is very little difference between West Asians when it comes to African affinity. Besides, there is more and more evidence of Eurasian influx in Subsaharan Africa like the indirect Eurasian ancestry of the once thought pristine South African hunter-gatherers (Pickrell et al.) and more recently, the very small Neanderthal ancestry detected in Yoruba (http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v505/n7481/full/nature12886.html)
The ADMIXTURE run of Lazaridis et al. is also in line with the hidden Eurasian ancestry of Subsaharan Africans with minor Eurasian admix at lower Ks in all Africans.

The new Basal Eurasian thing makes everything a little bit more complicated because most Africans (with very slight variation) fall in the West Eurasian-African (https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B9o3EYTdM8lQQVZ6bjZxeUR6bzg/edit) axis in the first 2 dimensions of global PCA plots, not with other Eurasians.


So, I think there is definitely small African ancestry in minorities of the Near East such as Mesopotamian Jews and Assyrians but not as much as the the Red Sea component suggests (it's still overwhelmingly an out-of-Africa component).

The Eurasian and Neanderthal admixture can be explained through intermingling with African ethnic groups, such as certain East African populations who have Eurasian and Neanderthal admixture. So I don't think that does anything to discount the present of East African in those ethnic minorities of the Middle East. The question, if this African ancestry was derived from Eurasia at some point, why would it split into East African and Eurasian at lower Ks? Those East African alleles had to come from somewhere.

Basal Eurasian is probably one of those ancestral groups that was one of the first, if not the first to venture out of Africa. I think that might explain why it's at the juncture between West Eurasians proper and Africans.

parasar
01-21-2014, 03:49 AM
The Eurasian and Neanderthal admixture can be explained through intermingling with African ethnic groups, such as certain East African populations who have Eurasian and Neanderthal admixture. So I don't think that does anything to discount the present of East African in those ethnic minorities of the Middle East. The question, if this African ancestry was derived from Eurasia at some point, why would it split into East African and Eurasian at lower Ks? Those East African alleles had to come from somewhere.

Basal Eurasian is probably one of those ancestral groups that was one of the first, if not the first to venture out of Africa. I think that might explain why it's at the juncture between West Eurasians proper and Africans.

There is a good amount of L(xM, N) in the middle east. IMO, the East Eurasian vs. West Eurasian is a relic of the 50000ybp OoA thinking. There is a 50000 year gap between OoA event and the (re)occupation of western Eurasia 50000ybp. These (re)occupiers were from eastern Eurasia (who had no L(xM,N)) were mtDNA N followed by M.

Humanist
01-21-2014, 08:46 AM
There is a good amount of L(xM, N) in the middle east.

Yes. When speaking of modern Semitic-speaking populations, mtDNA L is observed in Arabic-speaking populations. However, it has yet to be observed in Samaritans, Assyrians, Iraqi Mandaeans, Iraqi Jews, Iranian Jews, Georgian Jews, Uzbek Jews, and Azeri Jews.

Stellaritic
01-21-2014, 01:34 PM
Yes. When speaking of modern Semitic-speaking populations, mtDNA L is observed in Arabic-speaking populations. However, it has yet to be observed in Samaritans, Assyrians, Iraqi Mandaeans, Iraqi Jews, Iranian Jews, Georgian Jews, Uzbek Jews, and Azeri Jews.

It has been detected in several Neolithic samples from Syria .
http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/wasianneolithicdna.shtml

Humanist
01-21-2014, 02:30 PM
It has been detected in several Neolithic samples from Syria .
http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/wasianneolithicdna.shtml
Yes. Thank you. I am aware of that.

Link (http://www.forumbiodiversity.com/showthread.php/29202-West-Asian-East-African-South-Asian-and-North-African-aDNA-Data-(mtDNA-and-Y-DNA)) to a thread I created on another forum, based on the data reported on Jean's site.



mtDNA

Note: mtDNA haplogroups and subclades may not be current with the most recent version of the PhyloTree.

Neolithic
1 T2b Syria PPNB 7400-6700 BC
2 H or K Syria PPNB 6800-6000 BC
3 ? Syria PPNB 6800-6000 BC
4 T2b Syria PPNB 6800-6000 BC
5 T2b Syria PPNB 6800-6000 BC
6 H5 Syria PPNB 6800-6000 BC
7 K? Syria PPNB 6800-6000 BC
8 R? Syria PPNB 6800-6000 BC
9 L2a1 Syria PPNB 6800-6000 BC
10 L2a1 Syria PPNB 6800-6000 BC
11 H Syria PPNB 6000-5750 BC
12 K Syria PPNB 6000-5750 BC
13 K Syria PPNB 6000-5750 BC
14 C1 Syria PPNB 6000-5750 BC
15 H3a? Turkey Halaf 6000-5800 BC
16 ? Turkey Halaf 6000-5800 BC
17 ? Turkey Halaf 6000-5800 BC
18 H3a? Turkey ------ 6000-4000 BC
19 ? Turkey ------ 6000-4000 BC
20 ? Turkey ------ 6000-4000 BC

Copper Age / Chalcolithic
21 H3a Turkey Ubaid 5000-4500 BC
22 U3a Israel ------ 4490-4335 BC
23 H? Israel ------ 4460-4365 BC
24 H6 Israel ------ 4240-4065 BC
25 H? Israel ------ 3765‐3650 BC

Bronze Age
26 H14a Syria Sumer 2900-2700 BC Site in Syria
27 U4 Syria Sumer 2900-2700 BC Site in Syria
28 U4a2b Syria Sumer 2900-2700 BC Site in Syria
29 R Syria Sumer ----2550 BC---- Site in Syria
30 J1a1 Syria Sumer ----2550 BC---- Site in Syria
31 L2a1 Syria Sumer ----2550 BC---- Site in Syria
32 K Syria Amorite 2650–2450 BC Site in Syria (Amorite?)
33 M49 Syria ----- 2650–2450 BC Terqa (Tell Ashara), Syria
34 M61 Syria ----- 2200–1900 BC Terqa (Tell Ashara), Syria

Iron Age
35 H or V? Israel Jewish ---0-100 AD--- Tomb of the Shroud, Akeldama, Jerusalem
36 H or V? Israel Jewish ---0-100 AD--- Tomb of the Shroud, Akeldama, Jerusalem
37 H Israel Jewish ---0-100 AD--- Tomb of the Shroud, Akeldama, Jerusalem
38 H or J1 Israel Jewish ---0-100 AD--- Tomb of the Shroud, Akeldama, Jerusalem
39 W? Israel Jewish ---0-100 AD--- Tomb of the Shroud, Akeldama, Jerusalem
40 W? Israel Jewish ---0-100 AD--- Tomb of the Shroud, Akeldama, Jerusalem
41 W? Israel Jewish ---0-100 AD--- Tomb of the Shroud, Akeldama, Jerusalem
42 W Israel Jewish ---0-100 AD--- Tomb of the Shroud, Akeldama, Jerusalem
43 W Israel Jewish ---0-100 AD--- Tomb of the Shroud, Akeldama, Jerusalem
44 ? Israel Jewish ---0-100 AD--- Tomb of the Shroud, Akeldama, Jerusalem
45 ? Israel Jewish ---0-100 AD--- Tomb of the Shroud, Akeldama, Jerusalem

Roman
46 J1c2 Bulg. Roman 1st Century AD May have been prominent figure among early Christians. From "John the Baptist" documentary.
47 H2a2b1 SY/IT Roman --c. 150 AD-- Luke the Evangelist. Born Antioch, Syria; buried Padua, Italy
48 M49 Syria Late Roman 200–300 AD Tell Masaikh, Syria
49 M4b Syria Late Roman 500–700 AD Tell Masaikh, Syria

ZephyrousMandaru
01-21-2014, 04:39 PM
Whatever this African admixture is, it may be associated with when the Middle East was first populated or the spread of Afro-Asiatic languages. Maybe the original Afro-Asiatic peoples had substantial amounts of this Red Sea component.

Ignis90
01-21-2014, 04:48 PM
Yes. When speaking of modern Semitic-speaking populations, mtDNA L is observed in Arabic-speaking populations. However, it has yet to be observed in Samaritans, Assyrians, Iraqi Mandaeans, Iraqi Jews, Iranian Jews, Georgian Jews, Uzbek Jews, and Azeri Jews.

Yes, but what's funny is mtDNA L is observed in Ashkenazis Jews, whose ancestors left the Near East 2000 years ago and subsequently mixed with Europeans to an extent.

newtoboard
02-09-2014, 05:26 PM
I wonder if this is relevant.

http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2004/09/racial-affinities-of-prehistoric-east.html

I don't really put value into craniometric measurements.