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HarryWatson
09-11-2019, 08:10 PM
As a total newbie I've been trying to find out if I could pin my results on any particular place or time in history , which is probably what everyone does . Up until recently I had "narrowed down"
My ancestors to Western Europe. But I've read that a graveyard excavation at Niederstotzingen has found Skeletons of Alemanni people with a Marker that I have (R1b s21) Z347
Does that mean they are MY ancestors or am I being an idiot
Any information will be much appreciated . I can send anyone a copy of the read out if that makes any difference

Revmac
09-11-2019, 08:30 PM
So basically; it’s not impossible but it’s probably unlikely that they are one of your direct ancestors. About 25% of M269+ men are S21+. I don’t know how many are Z347+ but Z347 probably covers such a large area and has so many living descendants that it’s unlikely. Even if they are not a direct ancestor; they still are paternally related to you and your ancestors could have possibly been near by. I could be wrong though. Stay tuned here because I’m sure someone with a more thorough answer than me will come along in this thread.

Either way it’s pretty cool if you ask me. My clade is literally so small that we will probably never find an ancient specimen who is positive for it so all I can do is hope they find more early guys like rise98.

Edit: I should have said about 25% of R1b M269 men are S21+ not just European men. There is about 110 million M269+ men in Europe I think.

Wing Genealogist
09-11-2019, 09:46 PM
We cannot say where ANY ancient remains are the direct Y-DNA ancestor of ANYONE living today, but we use ancient DNA remains to help us narrow down where the various haplogroups originated and migrated. I maintain a spreadsheet documenting all of the Ancient/Medieval/Royal R1b-U106+ (S21) remains discovered to date at: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1rpJP0Bt4qUQb9wWBFA7i1tLPV75ie_qS0iplwvvlVmQ/edit?usp=sharing

dsm
09-11-2019, 10:57 PM
As a total newbie I've been trying to find out if I could pin my results on any particular place or time in history , which is probably what everyone does . Up until recently I had "narrowed down"
My ancestors to Western Europe. But I've read that a graveyard excavation at Niederstotzingen has found Skeletons of Alemanni people with a Marker that I have (R1b s21) Z347
Does that mean they are MY ancestors or am I being an idiot
Any information will be much appreciated . I can send anyone a copy of the read out if that makes any difference

Don't ever think your assumptions are idiotic, if an assumption is honestly made (or an honest question is asked), the only idiocy is likely to be in the answers. :)

Re the DNA from an ancient site. What we all need to do (it takes time) is understand that the only age traceable DNA lines we have are 1) our mtDNA and 2) our Y-DNA.
But these are only a tiny part of who we are today.

My Y-DNA is R1b-S1194 which is a parallel branch to U106 & P312. The evidence to date says that my haplogroup mutation of R1b-S1194 may have occurred somewhere in the Nth European Plains around 4,800 years ago.
My family came from Devon England and all the family research says we have been there at least 1,000 years. The probability and the Y-DNA trail, points to an ancestor with R1b-S1194 and of Scandinavian/Germanic origin coming to Britain between 790AD & 1066AD.

Our English ancestral village (Ottery St Mary, Devon) is pretty much in an area dominated by P312 'Celtic' peoples and there are quite a few U106 (Scandinavian/Germanic aka Anglo-Saxon-Frisians) peoples as well. >>We S1194 are about 0.5% of the Devon Y-DNA.<<

So what am I ? - What is the bulk of my current autosomal DNA ?. Autosomal representing all my recent generations of ancestors. Because we have been living in a Celtic dominated region for so long, the dominant DNA of our Devon family is now Celtic except for the line of Y-DNA which we know is from a Scandinavian/Germanic people. They, in turn, apparently got that from a European Cordedware people who in turn appear to have got that from a Steppes Nomads based people.

My appearance fits a Celtic profile better than any other even if my Y-DNA (5,000 years ago) was of Asian Steppes nomads. I sure don't resemble them today.

So looking at my autosomal DNA, and how many people contributed to that, lets count them. Just to add perspective lets choose a reproduction period of 25 years as an average:-

Year__Gens___Numbers of ancestors
1945 Gen 01 = 0001 x Me
1920 Gen 02 = 0002 x Parents
1895 Gen 03 = 0004 x Grand Parents (GP)
1870 Gen 04 = 0008 x Great Grand Parents (GGP)
1845 Gen 05 = 0016 x GGGP
1820 Gen 06 = 0032 x GGGGP
1795 Gen 07 = 0064 x GGGGGP
1770 Gen 09 = 0128 x GGGGGGP
1745 Gen 10 = 0256 x GGGGGGGP
1720 Gen 11 = 0512 x GGGGGGGGP
1695 Gen 12 = 1024 x GGGGGGGGGP
1670 Gen 13 = 2048 x GGGGGGGGGGP
1645 Gen 14 = 4096 x GGGGGGGGGGGP
1620 Gen 15 = 8192 x GGGGGGGGGGGGP

Am sure you can see where this is heading. Think about how many G*Ps you had 500 years ago let alone 1000 or 2000.
Point is that beyond about 6 gens back, our bulk of DNA (autosomal) has become so diluted it is very hard to dissect it.
Unless we live or lived in a very isolated community, most of us are 'Heinz 57-varieties' of ethnic makeup.

In summary, the *only* use our Y-DNA is to us, is to be able to say, what and where a male ancestor was at some past distant time. Just how much we resemble that person will vary dramatically depending on if we are part of the new world diaspora or still live relatively undiluted, in the area the ancient burial ancestor Y-DNA was found.

spruithean
09-12-2019, 12:06 AM
As a total newbie I've been trying to find out if I could pin my results on any particular place or time in history , which is probably what everyone does . Up until recently I had "narrowed down"
My ancestors to Western Europe. But I've read that a graveyard excavation at Niederstotzingen has found Skeletons of Alemanni people with a Marker that I have (R1b s21) Z347
Does that mean they are MY ancestors or am I being an idiot
Any information will be much appreciated . I can send anyone a copy of the read out if that makes any difference

They probably aren't your direct ancestors, but technically they are "related" as they are on the same branch of the R1b tree as you (though in terms of terminal positions we won't know).

For example, there was an Iron Age sample from Denmark that is I-Z59, and technically I am related to that individual as we would share a common ancestor.

HarryWatson
09-12-2019, 10:03 PM
I can't thank everyone enough for the assistance you've given me and I feel I understand things a bit better now .

Tz85
09-12-2019, 10:15 PM
My maternal grandfather is Suevi or Alemanni from Tubingen.

Wing Genealogist
09-12-2019, 11:14 PM
I can't thank everyone enough for the assistance you've given me and I feel I understand things a bit better now .

That is one of the major reasons why this forum was created.

Bollox79
09-13-2019, 02:08 AM
As a total newbie I've been trying to find out if I could pin my results on any particular place or time in history , which is probably what everyone does . Up until recently I had "narrowed down"
My ancestors to Western Europe. But I've read that a graveyard excavation at Niederstotzingen has found Skeletons of Alemanni people with a Marker that I have (R1b s21) Z347
Does that mean they are MY ancestors or am I being an idiot
Any information will be much appreciated . I can send anyone a copy of the read out if that makes any difference

Speaking of the U106+ Niederstotzingen samples here are my notes on them:

Concerning kinship relations at Niederstotzingen: Both kinship estimates show first-degree relatedness for pairs 1/3A, 1/6, 1/9, 3A/9, and 9/12B and second-degree relatedness for 1/12B, 3A/6, 3A/12B, and 6/9. Except for 12C, all of the Niederstotzingen North individuals are detectably and closely related. (Niederstotzingen North, in this paper, refers to grave 1, 3a, 6, 9, 12b, and 12c - all are Northern in their autosomal DNA).


Niederstotzingen Grave 1: R-U106/S21>Z381/S263>Z301/S499> L48> Z9> Z347> Z328> FGC10367>Z319>S1734>FGC363>FGC23165>FGC23143 per Alex Williamson. Male aged 40-50 years of age. Grave good: Lance, shield, saex, double-edged sword (spatha). Shared drift/autosomal: top 3 pops: Lithuanian, Icelandic, Norwegian. Isotope analysis: most likely local to the area or a similar area to Niederstotzingen. (Only grave 10 and 3b showed up as non-local in their isotope analysis).

Niederstotzingen Grave 3a: R-U106/S21>Z381/S263>Z301/S499>L48> Z9>Z347> Z328>FGC10367>Z319>S1734>FGC363>FGC23165 per Alex Williamson. Male aged 20-30 years of age and archeological context: Byzantine. Grave goods: Lance, shield, saex, double-edged sword (spatha), arrows, and bridle with silver pressed sheet metal fittings of Byzantine ornamentation. Shared drift/autosomal: top 3 pops: Norwegian, Icelandic, Irish. Isotope analysis: most likely local to the area or a similar area to Niederstotzingen. (Only grave 10 and 3b showed up as non-local in their isotope analysis).

Niederstotzingen Grave 6: R-U106/S21>Z381/S263>Z301/S499>L48>Z9>Z347> Z328>FGC10367>Z319>S1734 per Alex Williamson. Male aged 14-17 years of age and archeological context: Lombardian. Grave goods: Double-edged sword (spatha), belt and bridle originating from Lombard Italy. Belt ornamentation dated to beginning of 7th century. Shared drift/autosomal: top 3 pops: Lithuanian, Norwegian, Icelandic. Isotope analysis: most likely local to the area or a similar area to Niederstotzingen. (Only grave 10 and 3b showed up as non-local in their isotope analysis).

Niederstotzingen Grave 9: R-U106/S21>Z381/S263>Z301/S499>L48>Z9>Z347> Z328>FGC10367>Z319>S1734>FGC363>FGC23165>FGC23143 per Alex Williamson. Male aged 40-50 years of age and archeological context: Franconian (Frankish). Grave goods: Lance, shield, shield handle, saex, double-edged ring sword (ring-pommel spatha). The ring sword has a silver pommel and bead golden decorative button, and the lance engravings indicate Frankish origin. Shared drift/autosomal: top 3 pops: Lithuanian, Icelandic, Irish. Isotope analysis: most likely local to the area or a similar area to Niederstotzingen. (Only grave 10 and 3b showed up as non-local in their isotope analysis).

Niederstotzingen Grave 12b: R-U106/S21>Z381/S263>Z301/S499>L48>Z9>Z347> Z328>FGC10367>Z319 per Alex Williamson. Male aged 30-40 years of age and archeological context: Byzantine. Grave goods: Double-edged sword (spatha), lance, shield, lamellar helmet-Byzantine style. Shared drift/autosomal: top 3 pops: Lithuanian, Irish, Icelandic. Isotope analysis: most likely local to the area or a similar area to Niederstotzingen. (Only grave 10 and 3b showed up as non-local in their isotope analysis).

Niederstotzingen Grave 12c: R-U106/S21>Z381/S263>Z301/S499>L48>Z9>Z347> Z328>FGC10367>Z319 per Alex Williamson. Male aged 20-30 years of age. Grave goods: Double-edged sword (spatha). Shared drift/autosomal: top 3 pops: Icelandic, Norwegian, Lithuanian. Isotope analysis: most likely local to the area or a similar area to Niederstotzingen. (Only grave 10 and 3b showed up as non-local in their isotope analysis).

and a link to my current aDNA U106+ sample/burial list... I haven't added the samples from the recent Viking paper yet as I am waiting on the raw data to be released and for someone like Alex W. to get a hold of it and look for further downstream SNPs etc... then I can write up an entry for each one etc starting with the DF98 guy from Skara ;-)... https://docs.google.com/document/d/1h6ZFaJe9gUtwl2r2Iu33B5_kCc6er5n9oEthCe25wV0/edit?usp=sharing

Cheers,
Cathal (Charlie)

CelticGypsy
01-19-2020, 04:29 PM
Don't ever think your assumptions are idiotic, if an assumption is honestly made (or an honest question is asked), the only idiocy is likely to be in the answers. :)

Re the DNA from an ancient site. What we all need to do (it takes time) is understand that the only age traceable DNA lines we have are 1) our mtDNA and 2) our Y-DNA.
But these are only a tiny part of who we are today.

My Y-DNA is R1b-S1194 which is a parallel branch to U106 & P312. The evidence to date says that my haplogroup mutation of R1b-S1194 may have occurred somewhere in the Nth European Plains around 4,800 years ago.
My family came from Devon England and all the family research says we have been there at least 1,000 years. The probability and the Y-DNA trail, points to an ancestor with R1b-S1194 and of Scandinavian/Germanic origin coming to Britain between 790AD & 1066AD.

Our English ancestral village (Ottery St Mary, Devon) is pretty much in an area dominated by P312 'Celtic' peoples and there are quite a few U106 (Scandinavian/Germanic aka Anglo-Saxon-Frisians) peoples as well. >>We S1194 are about 0.5% of the Devon Y-DNA.<<

So what am I ? - What is the bulk of my current autosomal DNA ?. Autosomal representing all my recent generations of ancestors. Because we have been living in a Celtic dominated region for so long, the dominant DNA of our Devon family is now Celtic except for the line of Y-DNA which we know is from a Scandinavian/Germanic people. They, in turn, apparently got that from a European Cordedware people who in turn appear to have got that from a Steppes Nomads based people.

My appearance fits a Celtic profile better than any other even if my Y-DNA (5,000 years ago) was of Asian Steppes nomads. I sure don't resemble them today.

So looking at my autosomal DNA, and how many people contributed to that, lets count them. Just to add perspective lets choose a reproduction period of 25 years as an average:-

Year__Gens___Numbers of ancestors
1945 Gen 01 = 0001 x Me
1920 Gen 02 = 0002 x Parents
1895 Gen 03 = 0004 x Grand Parents (GP)
1870 Gen 04 = 0008 x Great Grand Parents (GGP)
1845 Gen 05 = 0016 x GGGP
1820 Gen 06 = 0032 x GGGGP
1795 Gen 07 = 0064 x GGGGGP
1770 Gen 09 = 0128 x GGGGGGP
1745 Gen 10 = 0256 x GGGGGGGP
1720 Gen 11 = 0512 x GGGGGGGGP
1695 Gen 12 = 1024 x GGGGGGGGGP
1670 Gen 13 = 2048 x GGGGGGGGGGP
1645 Gen 14 = 4096 x GGGGGGGGGGGP
1620 Gen 15 = 8192 x GGGGGGGGGGGGP

Am sure you can see where this is heading. Think about how many G*Ps you had 500 years ago let alone 1000 or 2000.
Point is that beyond about 6 gens back, our bulk of DNA (autosomal) has become so diluted it is very hard to dissect it.
Unless we live or lived in a very isolated community, most of us are 'Heinz 57-varieties' of ethnic makeup.

In summary, the *only* use our Y-DNA is to us, is to be able to say, what and where a male ancestor was at some past distant time. Just how much we resemble that person will vary dramatically depending on if we are part of the new world diaspora or still live relatively undiluted, in the area the ancient burial ancestor Y-DNA was found.

This is a very helpful post. I think we forget people have always been on the move for land and resources due to famines, disease, etc. and it's nothing new. I do have a group of ancestors that were isolates for 350+ years, and that has preserved a British Isle DNA quite unlike what is seen in the rest of my country and sometimes with higher DNA from the regions of the British Isles than those who currently live there. I know that's not long in the scope of things, but a lot of people movement took place during those Colonial America years not just to America, but also Australia, New Zealand, Canada, etc. But one generation of my mother marrying outside of it split my autosomal DNA in half to completely different people. So I've thought of doing mitochondrial, and am still on the fence because basically it is going to show just one female ancestor I descend from. We have had several male cousins test Y DNA when curious where a male ancestor came from. Kind of funny, one ancestor appeared out of nowhere in colonial Virginia in the 1700s and two male descendants both agreed to do Y DNA so we'd figure where he came from. The result was R M-222, so we still don't know if he came from Ireland or Scotland, but at some point his ancestors probably originated in Ireland, but R M-222 appears to also be a marker of the Dal Riata period which spanned the sea between northern Ireland and western Scotland. So it's all a matter of timelines really. The more I learn, the less I know.