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View Full Version : R1b1a2a1 (L23+) - L23EE Type, Z2103+ Predicted_ [DYS-389II 31-33][DYS-464AB[14-15]



Silesian
01-06-2014, 05:31 PM
Predicted R1b Z2105*[R1b L584-,L277-]

L23EE Predicted Z2103EE http://www.familytreedna.com/public/polish/default.aspx?vgroup=polish&section=yresults

ysearch
http://www.ysearch.org/

U98VT-
The haplotype belongs to a male skeleton found at the 12th century cemetary of the church of St.Margaret, Podlazice, CZECH.[Year Born: Year Died: About 1180 Country of Origin Podlazice, Ceskoslovensko


99SC2-Silesia, Poland
B8632
EMVRN
G3W6V
TMGGE-Ceskoslovensko
3NT7K-Mestec - Chroustovic, Czechoslovakia
DB9H7-Preußen/Prussia, Germany
FGK82-Majer, Austro-Hungarian Empire
P7U4J-Woloshka, Ukraine
CRQ37
Z7AF9-Réca (in Slovak), Réte (in Hungarian), Slovakia
D3NTG-Split, Croatia
DDHPK-Poland
2M759-Czech Republic
MK9TU-Silesia, Germany
397MQ-Opanasyuk Ukraine
2QVBT- Czech Republic
YTH3T- Glommen, Preußen/Prussia, Germany
QA28G- Mecin, Czech Republic
ntphh-Malastow, Poland, Galicia/Galizien/Halychyna, Austria
XWBWH-Frystak, Holesov, Czech Republic, Czech Republic
CZ2K2-Posen/Pozna'n, Germany
A7ERS- Krzemienica near Rzeszow, Poland
A6HE2
ADWBU-Perm, Russia
24RJQ-Prague, Czech Republic
9M8X4-Czech Republic
KFEEH-Klopotovice, Czech Republic
DECYS-Kölaby, Sweden
QBWMZ-Germany
KHBCK-Bukovina, Transylvania, Hungary

Joe B
01-06-2014, 07:59 PM
Predicted R1b Z2105*[R1b L584-,L277-]

L23EE Predicted Z2103EE http://www.familytreedna.com/public/polish/default.aspx?vgroup=polish§ion=yresults

ysearch
http://www.ysearch.org/

U98VT-
The haplotype belongs to a male skeleton found at the 12th century cemetary of the church of St.Margaret, Podlazice, CZECH.[Year Born: Year Died: About 1180 Country of Origin Podlazice, Ceskoslovensko


Good work. The STRs of the Podlažice skeleton are very similar to the Probasco (http://www.familytreedna.com/public/probasco-bartoszewski-bartos/default.aspx?section=yresults) and Oziemblowski (http://www.familytreedna.com/public/oziemblowski/default.aspx?section=ycolorized) groups. Having these two surname projects helps to see what wiggle room there is with the STRs. #N112689, a CTS7822 from Kursk that smal alerted us to, fits within that group too. So getting somebody with this haplotype to test and confirm CTS7822/Z2110 would be good. If we can get the skeleton to cooperate all the better.

What will the name of this new modal haplotype be? The geography of this haplotype is striking. I'll throw out The Carpathian Modal Haplotype to get the ball rolling.

Silesian
01-07-2014, 06:28 PM
Predicted R1b Z2105*[R1b L584-,L277-]
R1b1a2a1 (L23+) - L23EE Type, Z2103+ Predicted_ [DYS-389II 31-33][DYS-464AB[14-15]
DYS-392 [13]

L23EE Predicted Z2103EE http://www.familytreedna.com/public/polish/default.aspx?vgroup=polish§ion=yresults

ysearch
http://www.ysearch.org/

U98VT-
The haplotype belongs to a male skeleton found at the 12th century cemetary of the church of St.Margaret, Podlazice, CZECH.[Year Born: Year Died: About 1180 Country of Origin Podlazice, Ceskoslovensko


Ukrainian, Russian, Satem language regions
Polish,Czech, Satem language regions
Centum, Satem, Iranian Uralic language regions


99SC2-Silesia, Poland
B8632Czech?
EMVRNCzech?
G3W6VCzech?
TMGGE-Ceskoslovensko
3NT7K-Mestec - Chroustovic, Czechoslovakia
DB9H7-Preußen/Prussia, Germany
FGK82-Majer, Austro-Hungarian Empire
P7U4J-Woloshka, Ukraine
CRQ37
Z7AF9-Réca (in Slovak), Réte (in Hungarian), Slovakia
D3NTG-Split, Croatia
DDHPK-Poland
2M759-Czech Republic
MK9TU-Silesia, Germany
397MQ-Opanasyuk Ukraine
2QVBT- Czech Republic
YTH3T- Glommen, Preußen/Prussia, Germany
QA28G- Mecin, Czech Republic
ntphh-Malastow, Poland, Galicia/Galizien/Halychyna, Austria
XWBWH-Frystak, Holesov, Czech Republic, Czech Republic
CZ2K2-Posen/Pozna'n, Germany
A7ERS- Krzemienica near Rzeszow, Poland
A6HE2
ADWBU-Perm, Russia
24RJQ-Prague, Czech Republic
9M8X4-Czech Republic
KFEEH-Klopotovice, Czech Republic
DECYS-Kölaby, Sweden
QBWMZ-Germany
KHBCK-Bukovina, Transylvania, Hungary
NMZ4A- Russia
DHYHU-Russia

R1b Z2105+ L277+DYS-392-[14]
KJ8UQ-Uralsk, Kazakhstan

R1b Z2105+ L584+
PYFSG-Ukraine

newtoboard
01-07-2014, 06:29 PM
I wonder if L23EE has something to do with the Catacomb culture.

Silesian
01-07-2014, 06:34 PM
I wonder if L23EE has something to do with the Catacomb culture.

I don't know, but Z2105* +L277+ L584+ can be found among around these branches of R1b also.

R1b*343+R1b1 25+ M73+ z2105* L584+ L277+From Carpathians to Urals- Kazakhstan.


R1b (R-M343)R1b* (that is R1b with no subsequent distinguishing SNP mutations) is extremely rare. The only population yet recorded with a definite significant proportion of R1b* are the Kurds of southeastern Kazakhstan with 13%.... However, more recently, a large study of Y-chromosome variation in Iran, revealed R1b* as high as 4.3% among Persian sub-populations


Varzari found 3 cases in the Ukraine, in a study of 322 people from the Dniester-Carpathian region, who were P25 positive, but M269 negative.[24]

R1b Khazakstan translplanted Kurds from Azeri/Iran http://www.familytreedna.com/public/SiberiaTransbaikalia/default.aspx?section=yresults
Native Siberians and their descendants - haplogroup R1b
177944 Kolosov Russian Federation R1b1
38996 Tobolzhyn Russian Federation R1b1a1
38998 Azhermachev Russian Federation R1b

Native Uralians R1b

177945 Shipitsin Shipitsin Unknown Origin R1b1a2
20014 Parshakov Parshakov

smal
01-09-2014, 11:32 AM
D3NTG-Split, Croatia
YTH3T- Glommen, Preußen/Prussia, Germany


Invalid User ID

Silesian
05-14-2014, 04:04 PM
I wonder if L23EE has something to do with the Catacomb culture.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catacomb_culture

Update May 14-2014

smal's tree


And the Z2103 tree of the 1000 genomes (yellow) and Geno 2.0 (green) tested samples.

http://s004.radikal.ru/i207/1312/47/873bb5d9cd1e.jpg (http://radikal.ru/fp/83e6c2b0a94545479c54ead14119412f)[/QUOTE]

Comparing region variance R-CTS7822


R1b-CTS7822{L277-/L584-}[/I]



http://i.imgur.com/V697yGD.png


TMRCA between kits in Polish project R-CTS7822+[176123-278024. GD-6/12]

176123-Poland R-CTS7822 12 24 14 10 11-14 12 12 11 14 13 31
8024-Poland-R-CTS9219 13 25 15 10 11-14 12 12 12 13 13 30

Using Klad

http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?1801-KLAD-simple-TMRCA-calculator-for-two-haplotypes

L, length of haplotype M, number of mutations between 2 hpt TMRCA, gen
12 6 181
25 0 0
37 0 0
67 0 0

181 generations @30per generation= 5000+/-

AJL
05-14-2014, 04:09 PM
Silesian, your personal autosomal results have no causal relationship to the spread of the yDNA subclade you are a member of.

Silesian
05-14-2014, 05:45 PM
Is it possible that Bashkir R1b from the region in the map is also R-CTS7822 and not R-P312 ? Could it share R-CTS7822 with regions in the West ?

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/0c/Andronovo_culture.png

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/Bashqort_Clans/default.aspx?section=yresults

79662 Bashkortostan, Baysari-Buryjan clan Russian Federation R-P312? 12 24 14 10 11-14 12 12 12 14 13
3159888 Digor Ossetian Russian Federation R-L23 12 24 14 11 11-14 12 12 11 12 13 29 [L277-L584-]

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c1/Bashkortostan_in_Russia.svg
Since Bashkir sample is not fully snp/str tested and Digor sample is not R-CTS7822 tested. Only further testing can confirm; if both belong to the larger R-CTS7822 cluster further West.

brygian
05-14-2014, 06:54 PM
Silesian, you may be right. The predicted P312 might turn out to be CTS7822. FTDNA predicts (on a 25 STR marker base) that I am P312 since my Geno 2.0 results disappeared but I am CTS9219+ (and CTS7822+) indeed.

Silesian
05-14-2014, 06:54 PM
This thread would not be complete without acknowledging some who have contributed so much of their time,energy, expertise, in exploring new ideas. Thank you.

Way back in 2010 !

L23EE. 20 Jul 2010/ K. Nordtvedt/L.Mayka/P. Gwozdz

http://www.gwozdz.org/PolishClades.html#R1bL23EE


R1b1a2a2;Hypothetical;division of-Z2103-R1b EE type-R1b-EE-Eastern Europe
R1b1a2a1a1c2b1b;Hypothetical;division of-Z159-R1b A type-R1b-A-Ashkenazi


L23EE. 20 Jul 2010 documentation: This type is positive for the L23 SNP, hence this type is a hypothetical future haplogroup within the current haplogroup R1b1b2a. This type is negative for L51, the only current known branch - R1b1b2a1 - of L23.

Nordtvedt pointed out the cluster for this type some years ago, calling it R1b-EE (Eastern Europe). Mayka suggested the L23EE code to me.

There are only 6 samples in the Polish Project in this type (13 Jul 2010). SBP = 10.7% using all 67 markers, which is excellent for such a small type. The cutoff is 12, but if you match at step 10 through 12 I estimate your probability of belonging at slightly better than 80%, so you really should test for the L51 SNP - a negative result would boost the probability to about 95%. In the Polish Project, there is a gap of 5 - no samples from steps 12 through 16 and all 6 of the samples from step 17 to 20 are L51+. So this type is very well isolated in haplospace in Poland.

On Ysearch (code CX94E) there are also 6 samples in this type (13 Jul 2010), but 3 are the same as in the Polish Project. There are 7 samples at step 12 (vs zero in the Polish Project) and only 2 of those 12 are East European - one each in Germany and Russia. That means this type is not well isolated world wide, meaning samples near the cutoff are highly uncertain. I interpret this as evidence that my definition of L23EE type is really a Polish subtype within a larger L23EE cluster.

This type has evidence of structure. A number of markers are bimodal with no obvious correlation. To me, that means there are probably at least 3 sub-clades that may become evident as data accumulates.

If you match this type closely at 37 markers I highly recommend getting the full 67, because the statistics for assignment are not convincing at 37 markers. Even at 67 markers, I recommend the L51 test; a negative result confirms membership in this hypothetical clade, and a positive result means you are not a member. We do not know the probability of outsiders matching L23EE in STR values, particularly outside Poland, so there is still a slim chance of a surprise - a close match to the definition but with L51+.

Silesian
05-15-2014, 05:48 AM
Silesian, you may be right. The predicted P312 might turn out to be CTS7822. FTDNA predicts (on a 25 STR marker base) that I am P312 since my Geno 2.0 results disappeared but I am CTS9219+ (and CTS7822+) indeed.

I just put through my order for CTS9219 on the 10th/batched on 15th; pending results.
In the meantime we can speculate I'm positive for CTS9219 and compare our strs [25]

314859-(Pomak) Bulgaria:13-24-14-12-[11-11]-12-12-12-13-13-29-16-[8-10]-12-11-25-15-19-30-[14-14-15-16]
99SC2- Gliwice, Poland:12-24-14-10-[11-14]-12-12-11-14-13-31-16-[9-10]-11-11-25-15-19-33-[14-15-16-19]

If both of us end up being R-CTS9219 it looks like genetic distance of 20/25markers, if I calculate correctly {GD20-25markers}.

Correction-Update
Rathna has helped me, so full credit and thanks. Genetic distance between us is 17 out of 25GD17-25markers. Using the Klad calculator that shows:275 generations
L, length of haplotype M, number of mutations between 2 hpt TMRCA, gen
12 0 0
25 17 275
37 0 0
67 0 0

@30years per generation roughly 8250 years

Here Rathna used snp method similar to Michael.

Unfortunately Ware didn't send me (and I'd say us) his Big Y I asked for and to compare with the Nochev's. We have only the similar test done by Rootsy et al. upon the "Levites R1a", and the SNPs amongst the three subclades of R-Z2107* (L277, Z2106 and L584) have about 45 SNPs. If we use 150 years for SNP, as Michal did for R1a, we'd have[COLOR="#FF0000"] 6750 years. If we use 180 years for SNP we have more than 8000 years.

Joe B
05-15-2014, 02:26 PM
That R-P312 is just another for a R1b-CTS9219 is just another FTDNA haplogroup mistake.

Silesian
05-15-2014, 02:34 PM
Okay I had no idea.

Joe B
05-15-2014, 05:00 PM
He is correctly placed in the _b3a. R1b-M269: L23+ Z2103+ Z2105+ CTS7822+/Z2110+ and CTS9219+ group of the R1b1a2 (P312- U106-) DNA Project (https://www.familytreedna.com/public/ht35new/default.aspx?section=ycolorized). The new FTDNA haplotree and the screwy haplogroup assignments are messing everybody up. It's important to follow the project haplotrees.
Since CTS7822 was tested at YSEQ, it's very understandable why I am in the present category. With a little patience, it will get straghtened out.

brygian
05-15-2014, 08:43 PM
314859-(Pomak) Bulgaria:13-24-14-12-[11-11]-12-12-12-13-13-29-16-[8-10]-12-11-25-15-19-30-[14-14-15-16]
99SC2- Gliwice, Poland:12-24-14-10-[11-14]-12-12-11-14-13-31-16-[9-10]-11-11-25-15-19-33-[14-15-16-19]

All known CTS9219+ have DYS426=12, DYS388=12, DYS392=13, DYS454=11 and DYS448=19. This is also the case with you. Do you have more STR results?

brygian
05-15-2014, 09:18 PM
All known CTS9219+ have DYS426=12, DYS388=12, DYS392=13, DYS454=11 and DYS448=19. This is also the case with you. Do you have more STR results?

Also DYS385a=11, DYS459b=10 and DYS464=14. There are more markers that are the same for CTS9219+ but we have only a handful of test results and we cannot be sure what is characteristic and what not of this subclade. We have just two persons with Y-STR12, one with Y-STR25, one with Y-STR37, one with Y-STR67 and two with Y-STR111.

Silesian
05-16-2014, 05:15 PM
Also DYS385a=11, DYS459b=10 and DYS464=14. There are more markers that are the same for CTS9219+ but we have only a handful of test results and we cannot be sure what is characteristic and what not of this subclade. We have just two persons with Y-STR12, one with Y-STR25, one with Y-STR37, one with Y-STR67 and two with Y-STR111.
U98VT from 1100's CE should in theory be our earliest dated sample. Here is cluster with names blotted out, closest to me Gliwice, Poland with
GD between 14-19 {Using Klad calculator 1500+/-2000+/-}.
http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?1801-KLAD-simple-TMRCA-calculator-for-two-haplotypes


U98VT-skeleton HB02/Podlazice, Ceskoslovensko-12-24-14-11-11-14-12-12-12 13 13 30 16 9 10 25 15 19 32 11 16 12 23 12 15 22
2XHXQ-Kazakhstan 12 24 14 10 11 15 12 12 12 12 13 29 16 9 10 11 11 25 15 19 30 15 15 16 17 11 10 19 23 16 16 19 18 37 38 12 12 12 12 14 12 9 15 16 8 10 10 8 11 10 23 23 16 10 12 12 15 8 22 20 12 11 13 11 11 12 12
99SC2-Gliwice, Poland 12 24 14 10 11 14 12 12 11 14 13 31 16 9 10 11 11 25 15 19 33 14 15 16 19 10 10 19 23 16 16 19 19 37 40 12 12 12 12 14 11 9 15 16 8 10 10 8 10 11 23 23 16 10 12 12 15 8 23 20 12 11 13 11 10 12 12
CRQ37- Unknown 12 25 14 10 11 14 12 12 12 13 13 30 16 9 10 11 11 25 14 19 31 14 15 16 18 12 11 19 23 16 16 20 19 36 40 12 11 12 12 14 11 9 15 16 8 10 10 8 11 11 23 23 16 10 12 12 15 8 22 20 12 11 13 11 11 12 12
D3TNG-Split, Croatia 12 24 14 11 11 14 12 12 12 12 13 29 16 9 10 11 11 25 15 19 32 14 15 16 18 11 12 19 23 15 16 19 18 38 38 12 12 12 12 14 11 9 15 16 8 10 10 8 10 11 23 23 16 10 12 12 14 8 22 20 12 11 13 11 11 12 12
DB9H7-Preußen/Prussia, Germany 12 24 14 11 11 14 12 12 12 13 13 30 16 9 10 11 11 25 15 19 32 14 15 16 17 11 10 19 23 16 16 20 18 36 41 12 12 12 12 14 11 9 15 16 8 10 10 8 11 10 23 23 15 10 12 12 15 8 23 20 12 11 13 11 11 12 12
FGK82-Majer, Austro-Hungarian Empire 12 24 14 11 11 14 12 12 12 13 13 29 16 9 10 11 11 25 15 19 31 14 15 16 18 11 11 19 23 16 16 19 17 37 40 12 12 12 12 13 11 9 15 16 8 10 10 8 11 11 23 23 16 10 12 12 15 8 22 20 12 11 13 11 11 12 12
HW54G-Jįszsįg, Hungary 12 24 14 11 11 14 12 12 12 14 13 31 15 8 10 11 11 25 15 19 32 14 14 16 18 10 11 19 23 16 16 19 18 36 40 12 12 12 12 14 11 9 15 16 8 11 10 8 11 11 23 25 16 10 12 12 15 8 22 20 12 11 13 11 11 12 12
NM4UQ-Hornķ Ves, Czech Republic 12 24 14 11 11 14 12 13 12 13 13 30 16 9 10 11 11 25 15 19 32 14 15 16 18 11 11 19 23 16 17 20 18 36 37 12 12 12 12 14 11 9 15 16 8 10 10 8 11 11 23 23 16 10 12 12 15 8 22 19 12 11 13 11 11 12 12
NMZ4A-Bekhteevka, Korochanskij ujezd, Kurskaja gub, Russia 12 24 14 11 11 14 12 12 12 13 13 30 13 9 10 11 11 25 15 19 32 14 15 16 18 11 11 19 23 16 16 17 17 37 40 12 12 12 11 11 13 23 10 14 12 12 14 30 24 11 9 15 16 8 10 10 8 11 11 23 23 16 10 12 12 15 8 22 20 12 11 13 11 11 12 12 9 11 15 9 16 12 10 13 12 11 10 12 12 11 10 26 26 19 12
P7U4J- Woloshka, Ukraine 12 24 14 10 11 14 12 12 12 13 13 30 16 9 10 11 11 25 15 19 32 14 15 16 19 11 11 19 23 16 16 18 18 38 38 12 12 12 12 15 11 9 15 16 8 10 10 8 11 11 23 23 16 10 12 12 16 8 22 20 12 11 13 11 11 12 12
RBNQT-Carani, Romania 12 24 14 10 11 14 12 12 12 13 13 30 16 9 10 11 11 25 15 19 32 14 16 16 18 10 11 19 23 16 16 21 18 38 38 12 12 12 12 15 11 9 14 16 8 10 10 8 11 11 23 23 16 10 12 12 16 8 22 20 12 11 13 11 11 12 12
WF567-Mokrany Nowe, Poland 12 24 14 11 11 13 12 12 12 13 13 29 16 9 10 11 11 25 14 19 30 14 15 17 18 11 10 19 21 16 16 19 18 36 39 12 12 12 12 14 11 9 15 16 8 10 10 8 10 11 23 23 16 10 12 12 14 8 22 20 12 11 13 11 11 12 12
XQE85-Unknown 12 24 14 10 11 13 12 12 12 14 13 31 16 9 10 11 11 25 14 19 30 14 14 15 16 11 11 19 23 16 16 19 18 34 40 13 12 12 12 14 11 9 15 16 8 10 10 8 10 11 23 23 16 10 12 12 15 8 22 20 12 11 13 11 11 12 12
Z27HX-Poland 12 23 14 10 11 14 12 12 12 13 13 30 16 9 10 11 11 25 15 19 34 15 15 16 18 10 10 19 23 16 16 20 19 36 39 13 12 12 12 14 11 9 15 16 8 10 10 8 11 11 23 23 16 10 12 12 16 8 22 20 12 11 13 11 11 12 12
Z7AF9-Réca (in Slovak), Réte (in Hungarian), Slovakia 12 24 14 11 11 11 12 12 11 13 13 31 16 9 9 11 11 25 15 19 31 14 15 16 18 11 11 19 23 16 16 19 18 37 40 12 12 12 12 14 11 9 15 16 8 10 10 8 11 11 23 23 16 10 12 12 15 8 22 20 12 11 13 11 11 12 12


It will be interesting to see more samples from Greece/Macedonia/Bulgaria/Albania.Perhaps a Northern Balkan and Southern Balkan cluster will emerge

Mis
07-29-2014, 06:07 PM
CTS9129 ^ (Dys561 = 16) ^ (Dys461 = 11) ^ (......) =>l23EE ?

Silesian
07-30-2014, 05:13 AM
CTS-7822+,<Dys 561=15><Dys461=11>
CTS-9219+<Dys 561=15/16><Dys461=11/12>

brygian
07-30-2014, 07:04 AM
CTS-7822+,<Dys 561=15><Dys461=11>
CTS-9219+<Dys 561=15/16><Dys461=11/12>

If this is the criteria, can you point any confirmed CTS7822+ or CTS9219+ who is NOT in the EE cluster?

Silesian
07-30-2014, 03:34 PM
If this is the criteria, can you point any confirmed CTS7822+ or CTS9219+ who is NOT in the EE cluster?

Unfortunately there are not enough samples. The samples we have are not tested fully. For example compare CTS-R-9219+ sample NMZ4A with 1100A.D+/- U98VT sample from Podlazice, Ceskoslovensko Monastery with genetic distance 4/27. NMZ4A has DYS446-14 U98VT Podlazice, Ceskoslovensko has DYS-446-15 is it 7822+ and/or 9219+ . Sample XYXEP has DYS461-10 but is it R-CTS-7822+ and/or 9219+?

Mis
11-03-2014, 02:11 PM
Question. Is Y5587 is already L23EE

smal
11-03-2014, 02:25 PM
L23EE is a subclade of Y5587. And L23EE is Y5587+ Y5586- Y5588-.

lgmayka
11-03-2014, 08:59 PM
L23EE is a subclade of Y5587. And L23EE is Y5587+ Y5586- Y5588-.
Y5587 can now be ordered individually from FTDNA.

Joe B
11-03-2014, 10:32 PM
Y5587 can now be ordered individually from FTDNA.
Thanks to the Polish DNA Project (https://www.familytreedna.com/public/polish/default.aspx) for your early work finding the R1b-Z2103 : CTS7822+ CTS9219+, L23EE Type subgroup. Y5587 and the other phylogenetically useful SNPs from FTDNA are listed in the basic tree we have for the R1b1b2 (P312- U106-) DNA Project (https://www.familytreedna.com/public/ht35new/). In other words, we've tried to exclude the lousy FTDNA SNP recommendations.

Mis
11-22-2014, 09:22 PM
Is there interest in buying Y5587 at Family Tree DNA?

Joe B
11-22-2014, 10:22 PM
Is there interest in buying Y5587 at Family Tree DNA?
There are at least two pending Y5587 SNP tests with FTDNA.

Mis
12-18-2014, 01:20 PM
People with nr 194717, 176123 , 2417086, 261086 ->Y5587->ZS1693 ?

Silesian
02-18-2015, 01:12 PM
People with nr 194717, 176123 , 2417086, 261086 ->Y5587->ZS1693 ?
Update:Massive migration from the steppe is a source for Indo-European languages in Europe

http://biorxiv.org/content/early/2015/02/10/013433

Upstream R1b-z2103 found;

We generated genome-wide data from 69 Europeans who lived between 8,000-3,000 years ago by enriching ancient DNA libraries for a target set of almost four hundred thousand polymorphisms. Enrichment of these positions decreases the sequencing required for genome-wide ancient DNA analysis by a median of around 250-fold, allowing us to study an order of magnitude more individuals than previous studies and to obtain new insights about the past. We show that the populations of western and far eastern Europe followed opposite trajectories between 8,000-5,000 years ago. At the beginning of the Neolithic period in Europe, ~8,000-7,000 years ago, closely related groups of early farmers appeared in Germany, Hungary, and Spain, different from indigenous hunter-gatherers, whereas Russia was inhabited by a distinctive population of hunter-gatherers with high affinity to a ~24,000 year old Siberian6. By ~6,000-5,000 years ago, a resurgence of hunter-gatherer ancestry had occurred throughout much of Europe, but in Russia, the Yamnaya steppe herders of this time were descended not only from the preceding eastern European hunter-gatherers, but from a population of Near Eastern ancestry. Western and Eastern Europe came into contact ~4,500 years ago, as the Late Neolithic Corded Ware people from Germany traced ~3/4 of their ancestry to the Yamnaya, documenting a massive migration into the heartland of Europe from its eastern periphery. This steppe ancestry persisted in all sampled central Europeans until at least ~3,000 years ago, and is ubiquitous in present-day Europeans. These results provide support for the theory of a steppe origin of at least some of the Indo-European languages of Europe.


R1b-M269 7.5 (7.0-8.1)
R1b-L23 7.2 (6.7-7.7)
R1b-Z2103 6.4 (5.9-6.9)
R1b-L51 6.7 (6.2-7.2)
R1b-L11 5.7 (5.2-6.2)
R1b-P312 5.6 (5.1-6.1)
R1b-U106 5.5 (5.0-6.0)

R1a-M417 6.2 (5.7-6.7)
R1a-CTS4385 5.8 (5.3-6.3)
R1a-L664 4.8 (4.3-5.2)
R1a-Z645 5.6 (5.1-6.1)
R1a-Z93 5.4 (4.9-5.9)
R1a-Z282 5.4 (4.9-5.9



R1b-Z2103-6.4 (5.9-6.9)
VVVVVVVV
http://i61.tinypic.com/1zcpteb.png

Yamnaya-R1b-Z2103-6.4 (5.9-6.9) in relation to R*[MA-1] and Corded Ware
VVVV

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-CuyvqGGHnqQ/VNxUuaBsnYI/AAAAAAAAJ7Y/ZJLiJXASI_U/s1600/2.jpg

Earliest evidence of Kurgans- go page 2 and check They fall right in line with age estimates of R1b-z2103 L584-
https://journals.uair.arizona.edu/index.php/radiocarbon/article/view/16087/pdf
http://eurogenes.blogspot.ca/2014/12/pit-grave-yamnaya-kurgans-are-as-old-as.html


Ancestral Journeys

Peopling of Europe
Wider view
Ancient DNA
Celtic tribes
Surnames and Y-DNA

Ancient Western Eurasian DNA of the Copper and Bronze Ages

http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/ancientdna.shtml

Silesian
02-18-2015, 01:30 PM
I wonder if L23EE has something to do with the Catacomb culture.


Or Yamnaya or Corded Ware?
http://s1006.photobucket.com/user/EliasAlucard/media/Indo-European/Yamnaya_to_Corded_Ware.png.html
http://s1006.photobucket.com/user/EliasAlucard/media/Indo-European/R1a/Karelia_R1a_to_Samara_R1b.png.html
http://s1006.photobucket.com/user/EliasAlucard/media/Indo-European/Yamnaya_to_Corded_Ware.png.html

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/89/Europe_Y-DNA..jpg

Silesian
02-18-2015, 01:39 PM
Good work. The STRs of the Podlažice skeleton are very similar to the Probasco (http://www.familytreedna.com/public/probasco-bartoszewski-bartos/default.aspx?section=yresults) and Oziemblowski (http://www.familytreedna.com/public/oziemblowski/default.aspx?section=ycolorized) groups. Having these two surname projects helps to see what wiggle room there is with the STRs. #N112689, a CTS7822 from Kursk that smal alerted us to, fits within that group too. So getting somebody with this haplotype to test and confirm CTS7822/Z2110 would be good. If we can get the skeleton to cooperate all the better.

What will the name of this new modal haplotype be? The geography of this haplotype is striking. I'll throw out The Carpathian Modal Haplotype C to get the ball rolling.
How about Yamnaya West R1b?

Silesian
04-17-2015, 05:32 PM
How about Yamnaya West R1b?
Update:BY-593+
R1b-Z2103>BY-593+ cluster 500-600+/- CE.
4369
Credit
http://www.yfull.com/tree/R1b/

ADW_1981
04-17-2015, 06:10 PM
[/IMG]

That map really doesn't do the R1b rates any justice. For some reason most of Germany is blank when it should be the R1b blue, as well as Denmark. I've also never seen anywhere in Italy where I2a formed a majority. I question where these folks who make these maps get their datasets. They must be extremely biased.

Silesian
06-02-2015, 05:12 PM
June 2-2015 update K7's and some interesting map's
Dodecad k7b & Eurogenes K7.

Yamnaya-M951285
Admix Results (sorted):
# Population Percent
1 Atlantic_Baltic 60.75
2 West_Asian 31.99
3 South_Asian 4.50
4 Siberian 2.60
Using 4 populations approximation:
1 Brahui + Lithuanians + Mordovians + Mordovians @ 7.801963

Yamnaya-020637
Admix Results (sorted):
# Population Percent
1 Atlantic_Baltic 61.65
2 West_Asian 32.09
3 Siberian 3.44
4 South_Asian 2.65
Using 4 populations approximation:
1 Brahui + Lithuanians + Mordovians + Mordovians @ 8.668571

Karelian H>G
# Population Percent
1 Atlantic_Baltic 81.43
2 Siberian 12.40
3 South_Asian 3.25
4 West_Asian 2.78
Using 4 populations approximation:
1 FIN30 + FIN30 + FIN30 + FIN30 @ 5.805546


Population
ANE 49.08%
ASE 11.22%
WHG-UHG 33.58%
East_Eurasian 1.54%
West_African -
East_African 4.58%
ENF -

Ma-1
Population
South_Asian 22.19%
West_Asian 20.44%
Siberian 13.74%
African 0.09%
Southern -
Atlantic_Baltic 43.55%
East_Asian -
Using 4 populations approximation:
1 Chamar + Chuvashs + Finnish + Tajiks @ 5.217900

Population
ANE 37.52%
ASE 3.63%
WHG-UHG 55.15%
East_Eurasian 3.70%
West_African -
East_African -
ENF

Eurogenes K7-
4680

http://wizzyschool.com/images/early%20man/human%20fossil%20sites.gif
http://wizzyschool.com/images/early%20man/human%20fossil%20sites.gif

http://s24.postimg.org/tbvhtfpcl/R1a_vs_R1b.png
http://s24.postimg.org/tbvhtfpcl/R1a_vs_R1b.png

R1b-9219+ general mix;
4681

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indigenous_peoples_of_the_Americas#/media/File:Spreading_homo_sapiens_la.svg

Silesian
06-11-2015, 12:49 PM
June 11 2015 update.
http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v522/n7555/full/nature14507.html

Allentoft et al. paper.

Mis
06-20-2015, 09:40 PM
http://etniczni.pl/jerzy-t-babel/wichry-azji-opowiesci-o-wykopaliskach-ludach-i-historii/alanowie-w-gorach-hissarskich-i-nad-wisla

Mis
11-02-2015, 05:33 PM
http://naukawpolsce.pap.pl/aktualnosci/news,407150,kolejne-cmentarzysko-odkryte-w-kaldusie.html

Silesian
12-04-2015, 01:16 AM
Update since June- New tree with samples by created by Sergey M. Still no R1b-9219+:)
6798

6799

http://oi66.tinypic.com/15qdt0h.jpg

http://oi66.tinypic.com/15f1ysi.jpg

http://oi68.tinypic.com/n15urr.jpg

https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/ht-3-5new/about/background

http://oi68.tinypic.com/2nh3n00.jpg

z-2106-z2109-2110/cts7822 some basal nodes placed between Caucasus and Pathan/Gujarati, with upper nodes placed close to variance to be determines, ie Kvahlynsk sample

http://www.kumbarov.com/ht35/R1b1a2_ht35_project_tree_24_11_22_2015.pdf

R.Rocca
12-04-2015, 01:56 AM
Update since June- New tree with samples by created by Sergey M. Still no R1b-9219+:)
6798[/ATTACH

[ATTACH=CONFIG]6799

6800

https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/ht-3-5new/about/background
6801

z-2106-z2109-2110/cts7822 some basal nodes placed between Caucasus and Pathan/Gujarati, with upper nodes placed close to variance to be determines, ie Kvahlynsk sample

http://www.kumbarov.com/ht35/R1b1a2_ht35_project_tree_24_11_22_2015.pdf

Thanks. The second image is hard to read...is there a larger version?

Silesian
12-04-2015, 04:37 AM
I enlarged the image. Also added Segey's placement of Z2106-Tabassaran & R1b-9219/cts7822 Pathan. 6200+/-B.P.
Possible connection with Caucasus-Steppe-Northern Pakistan?

Joe B
12-04-2015, 06:22 PM
Thanks. The second image is hard to read...is there a larger version?
The aDNA chart in the R1b-M269 (P312- U106-) Project (https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/ht-3-5new/about/background) was updated.
I enlarged the image. Also added smal's placement of Z2106-Tabassaran & R1b-9219/cts7822 Pathan. 6200+/-B.P.
Possible connection with Caucasus-Steppe-Northern Pakistan?It's preferable to link to the R1b-M269 (P312- U106-) DNA Project background page. That allows for updates to the aDNA chart without losing your link. Along with a high resolution Ancient R1b samples Haplogroup Assignments .png image is a link to a .pdf download of the aDNA chart. Jean M links to the FTDNA site on the Ancient Western Eurasian DNA of the Copper and Bronze Ages page when citing smal's aDNA haplogroup assignments and that works well. These 20 ancients are extremely well vetted by smal.
https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/ht-3-5new/about/background
http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/ancientdna.shtml

Silesian
05-04-2016, 02:18 AM
http://wizzyschool.com/images/early%20man/human%20fossil%20sites.gif
http://wizzyschool.com/images/early%20man/human%20fossil%20sites.gif

http://s24.postimg.org/tbvhtfpcl/R1a_vs_R1b.png
http://s24.postimg.org/tbvhtfpcl/R1a_vs_R1b.png

R1b-9219+ general mix;
4681


Update May 2 2016-[I][SIZE=2]Villabruna, Italy R1b sample 14,000+/-YBP
9144 Open woodland forest band?


Fu et al., The genetic history of Ice Age Europe, Nature 02/05/2016; DOI:10.1038/nature17993
http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/vaop/ncurrent/full/nature17993.html

Mis
06-26-2016, 06:22 PM
CTS9219-PH2147->BY593+
DYS537 =10
DYS485 =15
DYS459 <> 8-10
-----------------------------------
CTS9219-PH2147->BY593-
DYS537 =11
DYS485 =14
DYS459 = 8-10
it seems that there is a branch at the height (PH2147 TO 593)

Silesian
08-23-2016, 11:14 AM
CTS9219-PH2147->BY593+
DYS537 =10
DYS485 =15
DYS459 <> 8-10
-----------------------------------
CTS9219-PH2147->BY593-
DYS537 =11
DYS485 =14
DYS459 = 8-10
it seems that there is a branch at the height (PH2147 TO 593)
Update-
Italy-14oooYBP Villabunna-L754-formed 18800 ybp
Russia-SamaraH.GM73/Khvlansyk -L754-formed 18800 ybp
R1b-z2103>
Italy R1b-z2110*formed 6000 ybp
Sweden R1b-Y5592* formed 4800 ybp+Germany+Switzerland R1b-CTS9219* formed 4800 ybp
R1b-BY593*formed 4800 ybp
R-V2986*-Poland/Russia/Romania+ Poland R-Y14306Y14306 formed 1550 ybp,

Mis
08-23-2016, 12:06 PM
I expect Z2109 / Z2110 in the fossil DNA Beaker culture

Gravetto-Danubian
08-23-2016, 12:28 PM
[I][SIZE=1]http://wizzyschool.com/images/early%20man/human%20fossil%20sites.gif
Open woodland forest band?



After the LGM, most future R1- EHG groups seemed to have lived rather north- in the forest steppe and forested zone. They didn;t venture into the steppe much, until the Late Mesolithic in western Ukraine, but these might have been WHG groups from Balkans. The EHG -descendants appear to have only moved toward the steppe with the late Neolithic/ Eneolithic, and then still within the major river valleys - Dnieper , Donets, etc.
Crimea was possibly its own groups ? Who knows what they'll look like.

Mis
09-26-2016, 07:48 AM
Soft proof that the Cimbri marched through Eastern Europe
FTDNA-485752 (Cimbri) BY 593

Mis
10-10-2016, 03:21 PM
Worth reading
http://xn--c1acc6aafa1c.xn--p1ai/?page_id=10056&cpage=1

Silesian
10-10-2016, 07:32 PM
Worth reading
http://xn--c1acc6aafa1c.xn--p1ai/?page_id=10056&cpage=1
^^^
This video is also interesting-Starting from 2:01-Johannes Krause

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dH_OiTPZYTI&feature=youtu.be&t=21m17s
4800 years ago 90-100% replacement in central Europe;Bubonic Yersinia pestis.[ plague&Corded Ware battle axe culture, violent.
http://www.cam.ac.uk/research/news/plague-in-humans-twice-as-old-but-didnt-begin-as-flea-borne-ancient-dna-reveals
Sweden R1b-Y5592* formed 4800 ybp+Germany+Switzerland R1b-CTS9219* formed 4800 ybp
R1b-BY593*formed 4800 ybp
https://www.familytreedna.com/public/R1bBasalSubclades?iframe=yresults
section f3a3b. R1b-Z2103 > Z2106 >Z2109 > CTS7822 > CTS7556 > Y5592 *
f3a3b. R1b-Z2103 > Z2106 >Z2109 > CTS7822 > CTS7556 > Y5592 > CTS9219 *
R-V2986*-Poland/Russia/Romania+ Poland R-Y14306Y14306 formed 1550 ybp,
One R1b-5592* has already been found in Sweden, looks like new one also from
https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Y5592/
R-Y5592Y5592formed 4800 ybp, TMRCA 4800 ybpinfo

R-Y5592*
id:YF07084new
R-CTS1450CTS1450 * CTS9219 * Y5594+4 SNPsformed 4800 ybp, TMRCA 4800 ybpinfo

Your snp/mutation must be between R1b-5592* -CTS-9219+ both between the time Johannes Krause shows an influx of Yamnaya into Central Europe 4800+/-

Mis
10-10-2016, 07:57 PM
It is a revelation R1b-KMS67 phylogenetic tree
https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/r-1b-basal-subclades/about/background

Michał
10-29-2016, 04:30 PM
Is there anything known about the exact phylogenetic position of the relatively large Ossetian cluster under Y5587 (marked as f3a3b1b in the R1b Basal Subclades project)? Is it known whether this cluster is more closely related to subclade V2986 (ie. to PH2302>BY593/V2986) or rather to the "Southern" subclade Y5586 that includes at least one sublineage from Ossetia?

Also, what is the TMRCA age for PH2302 (also known as PH963), a clade parental to BY593/V2986? As far as I can see, there are two known cases of PH2302* and they don't seem to share any SNPs downstream. I guess one of these two people (#N128191) was tested with Big Y (but couldn't find any info about his ancestral location or country of origin). Was the other one (#160064 of Hungarian origin) tested with Y Elite? Is there any chance that they will submit their BAM files to YFull? They both seem to be negative for at least three SNPs shared by all BY593/V2986 members, so one could suspect that the TMRCA age of PH2302 is close to 2000 ybp, although smal suggests only 1450 years on his tree showing the aDNA results (where this clade is marked as PH963).

The information about the ancestral location of #N128191 should be quite helpful when trying to determine the most likely place of origin for clade PH2302.

Michał
10-30-2016, 07:27 AM
BTW, it would be nice if there was some co-operation between the admins of the R1b Basal Subclades project and the YFull team regarding the unification of the names used for particular subclades (ie. regarding the SNPs defining these subclades), so this would become much less confusing for the customers of both FTDNA and YFull.

smal
10-30-2016, 05:36 PM
Is there anything known about the exact phylogenetic position of the relatively large Ossetian cluster under Y5587 (marked as f3a3b1b in the R1b Basal Subclades project)? Is it known whether this cluster is more closely related to subclade V2986 (ie. to PH2302>BY593/V2986) or rather to the "Southern" subclade Y5586 that includes at least one sublineage from Ossetia?

Also, what is the TMRCA age for PH2302 (also known as PH963), a clade parental to BY593/V2986? As far as I can see, there are two known cases of PH2302* and they don't seem to share any SNPs downstream. I guess one of these two people (#N128191) was tested with Big Y (but couldn't find any info about his ancestral location or country of origin). Was the other one (#160064 of Hungarian origin) tested with Y Elite? Is there any chance that they will submit their BAM files to YFull? They both seem to be negative for at least three SNPs shared by all BY593/V2986 members, so one could suspect that the TMRCA age of PH2302 is close to 2000 ybp, although smal suggests only 1450 years on his tree showing the aDNA results (where this clade is marked as PH963).

The information about the ancestral location of #N128191 should be quite helpful when trying to determine the most likely place of origin for clade PH2302.

276904 Dzugkoev was tested Y5586+ in YSEQ. The other R1b Ossetians, probably, belong to the same subclade.

It seems N128191 is from West Germany but I do not know his ancestral location. 160064 was sequenced by Hallast et al. 2014. We do not have bam files from these samples and the correct TMRCA calculation is not possible. However, in comparison with the BY593+ samples they have 2 negative SNPs from the combBED region. Thus, the formation time for R-BY593 will be about 1900 ybp.

Mis
10-30-2016, 07:18 PM
.....

Silesian
02-04-2017, 01:17 PM
It is a revelation R1b-KMS67 phylogenetic tree
https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/r-1b-basal-subclades/about/background
Another paper, another revelation:) The Neolithic Transition in the Baltic Was Not Driven by Admixture with Early European Farmers
http://www.cell.com/action/showImagesData?pii=S0960-9822%2816%2931542-1
https://genetiker.wordpress.com/2017/02/04/y-snp-calls-from-mesolithic-and-neolithic-latvia-and-ukraine/

Sample Period Haplogroup
Latvia_HG2 Mesolithic pre-R1b1a1a1-M73 calls
Latvia_HG3 Mesolithic pre-R1b1a1a1-M73 calls
Latvia_MN1 Middle Neolithic R1b1a1a-P297 calls
Ukraine_HG1 Mesolithic I2a2a-M223 calls
Ukraine_N1 Neolithic R1a1-M459* calls
Latvia R1b-P297 and pre--R1b1a1a1-M73 from Zvejnieki, Estonia

Episodes of Continuity and Change during the
Mesolithic and Neolithic in the Baltic
The two earliest samples in our Baltic time series, Latvia_HG1(8,417–8,199 cal BP), associated with the Kunda culture, and
Latvia_HG2 (7,791–7,586 cal BP), associated with the Narva culture, derive from the Late Mesolithic period [17, 21]. A third
sample, Latvia_HG3 (7,252–6,802 cal BP), dates to the Late Mesolithic/Early Neolithic period, with the burial showing no ma-
jor departures from the preceding Mesolithic traditions [21]. Principal component analysis (PCA) with ancient samples projected
onto modern Eurasian genetic variation (see the Supplemental Experimental Procedures) shows that these three hunter-gath-
erer samples group together in a PCA plot (first two components,Figures 2A and S1A). In keeping with their geographical origins,
they are in an intermediate position between Western European hunter-gatherer samples (WHG; from Luxembourg, Hungary,
Italy, France, and Switzerland) and Eastern European hunter-gatherer samples (EHG; from Russia). They are composed of
the same (blue) major component as these other hunter-gatherer groups in an ancestry coefficient decomposition analysis per-
formed using ADMIXTURE [25](Figure 2), suggesting a close relationship between these groups. We found that although the
Latvian Mesolithic samples share closer affinity to WHG than to EHG, the Latvian Mesolithic samples do not belong entirely
to either hunter-gatherer group (tested using D statistics [ 27],which offer a formal test of admixture;Table 2). This suggests
that they may be a previously unsampled component of a hunt

Silesian
02-25-2017, 03:08 PM
Is there anything known about the exact phylogenetic position of the relatively large Ossetian cluster under Y5587 (marked as f3a3b1b in the R1b Basal Subclades project)? Is it known whether this cluster is more closely related to subclade V2986 (ie. to PH2302>BY593/V2986) or rather to the "Southern" subclade Y5586 that includes at least one sublineage from Ossetia?

Also, what is the TMRCA age for PH2302 (also known as PH963), a clade parental to BY593/V2986? As far as I can see, there are two known cases of PH2302* and they don't seem to share any SNPs downstream. I guess one of these two people (#N128191) was tested with Big Y (but couldn't find any info about his ancestral location or country of origin). Was the other one (#160064 of Hungarian origin) tested with Y Elite? Is there any chance that they will submit their BAM files to YFull? They both seem to be negative for at least three SNPs shared by all BY593/V2986 members, so one could suspect that the TMRCA age of PH2302 is close to 2000 ybp, although smal suggests only 1450 years on his tree showing the aDNA results (where this clade is marked as PH963).

The information about the ancestral location of #N128191 should be quite helpful when trying to determine the most likely place of origin for clade PH2302.

Hopefully with the next batch of results to be released. Origin if it is connected with Carpathian region and or The Cradle of Kurgan Culture
Perhaps Alan or Sarmatian as I have pointed out many years ago[purely speculation:) on my behalf] based on Alan settlements and BY-593+.

Silesian
03-04-2017, 03:08 AM
Hopefully with the next batch of results to be released. Origin if it is connected with Carpathian region and or The Cradle of Kurgan Culture
Perhaps Alan or Sarmatian as I have pointed out many years ago[purely speculation:) on my behalf] based on Alan settlements and BY-593+.

First confirmation! Sarmatian R1b sample I0575 :)
R-Y21707* basal > Z-2108*

14347
http://www.nature.com/articles/ncomms14615
Ancestry and demography and descendants of Iron Age nomads of the Eurasian Steppe
R-Z2108* id:NA20866GIH Gujarati Indian Houston
I0575 is roughly R-Y21707* (but A12363-)
id:ERR1347675RUS [RU-DA] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dagestan
https://yfull.com/tree/R-Z2108/

Mis
03-05-2017, 07:55 PM
CTs9219 is only a distant cousin.
http://forum.molgen.org/index.php/topic,9837.60.html

Silesian
03-05-2017, 08:43 PM
CTs9219 is only a distant cousin.
http://forum.molgen.org/index.php/topic,9837.60.html

Sarmatians=Alans
Alans=North Ossetia

https://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alanowie + https://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarmaci

Historię Alanów należy rozpatrywać przez pryzmat Sarmatów, którzy pojawiają się pod nazwą Sauromatów już w V w. p.n.e. Wiemy, że w IV w. p.n.e. Sauromaci utworzyli nowy, potężny związek plemienny, składający się z pokrewnych plemion, które napłynęły ze wschodu, a od III w. p.n.e. występowali już pod nazwą Sarmatów. Stopniowo wśród Sarmatów wyodrębniały się poszczególne wielkie plemiona m.in. Alanowie, Aorsowie, Jazygowie, Syrakowie i Roksolanowie (nie brak autorów, którzy Roksolanów traktują jako inną/starszą nazwę właśnie Alanów, zresztą i nazwa etniczna Alanowie w historii bywała używana jako nazwa nadrzędna innych mniejszych plemion). Spośród plemion sarmackich to właśnie dzieje Alanów poznano najlepiej, gdyż najdłużej utrzymywali się na arenie wydarzeń historycznych[3].
https://translate.google.com/

https://www.familytreedna.com/public/Ossetian/default.aspx?section=yresults
R1b1a2a2c1 Z2105+, CTS9219+, Y5586+, and DYS389a=12, DYS520=22

https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%AF%D1%81%D1%88%D0%B0%D0%B3
Terytorium, na którym osiedlili się do dziś zwanego Jįszsįg - "prowincji Osetyjczyków
https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/jaszsag/about/background
241746 xXXxxX, Jįszsįg, Hungary Hungary R-CTS9219

http://geocurrents.info/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/Sarmatians_Map.jpg

Silesian
03-05-2017, 09:02 PM
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proto-Slavic_borrowings
goo.gl/JKzhwY

https://translate.google.com/


Słowianie w dobie języka prasłowiańskiego zetknął się z różnych plemion irańskich, czyli Scytów, Sarmatów i Alanów, które były obecne w rozległych regionach Europy wschodniej i południowo-wschodniej w pierwszych wiekach ne. Nazwy dwóch dużych rzek w centrum ekspansji słowiańskiej, Dniepru i Dniestru, są pochodzenia irańskiego, a irańscy toponimy znajdują się na zachód aż dzisiejszej Rumunii.

Mis
03-08-2017, 08:39 AM
L23EE ? ->
http://naukawpolsce.pap.pl/aktualnosci/news,220245,tajemnica-kurhanu-pradawnego-plemieniu-dakow.html

Mis
03-18-2017, 08:31 PM
A bit of L23ee.
http://pereformat.ru/2016/12/r1a-migration-6/

Silesian
03-18-2017, 09:29 PM
A bit of L23ee.
http://pereformat.ru/2016/12/r1a-migration-6/
Sintashta/Arkaim R1a was over taken by Sarmatian R1b. The same R1b branch of Yamnaya. It did not go anywhere for 5000 years. The same branch that is related to European R1b-L51 by way of L23. R1b-L51 is not from Africa No credible evidence has been shown to prove this theory.

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-75LFC2DbVTQ/U0pzZpEe2QI/AAAAAAAAAU4/-KnlCxo9SkM/w746-h408-no/Underhill_Z93.png

Sarmatian/Bashkir region 500B.C.- 2017 over Sintashta-Arkaim region.
http://www.theapricity.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=50489&d=1409929228

Mis
04-26-2017, 09:02 PM
Will it be for sale in FTDNA?
* M11143 / GG469, YP3933 / GG590, GG475, GG605 and GG438, GG487, GG496, GG589, GG693 markers.

Joe B
04-27-2017, 04:59 PM
Will it be for sale in FTDNA?
* M11143 / GG469, YP3933 / GG590, GG475, GG605 and GG438, GG487, GG496, GG589, GG693 markers.Only their Big Y test covers that branch or those SNPs and is included in the FTDNA sale.

Mis
05-10-2017, 08:14 PM
This sample is interesting !
I2787 BB_Central_Europe Hungary R1b1a1a2a2

Silesian
05-10-2017, 09:31 PM
This sample is interesting !
I2787 BB_Central_Europe Hungary R1b1a1a2a2
Is it Z2103+ or L51+? It is near samples positive for CTS-7822+ and 9219+ Kecskemet[. R1b-CTS9219 > Y5587 > PH2302] 50k+/-
The cemetery is located in the north western part of Csepel Island near Budapest


Grave 688 (I2787, GEN 59):Male individual lying of his left side, in contracted 1800 position.
The rectangular shaped grave pit, oriented north east–southwest, was enclosed 1801by a round ditch. Grave good include a small jar.
The radiocarbon date is:1802ŸI2787/GEN_59Grave 688: 2458–2202calBCE (3840±35 BP, Poz-83640)

http://biorxiv.org/content/biorxiv/suppl/2017/05/09/135962.DC1/135962-1.pdf

Pribislav
05-10-2017, 10:26 PM
Is it Z2103+ or L51+? It is near samples positive for CTS-7822+ and 9219+ Kecskemet[. R1b-CTS9219 > Y5587 > PH2302] 50k+/-
The cemetery is located in the north western part of Csepel Island near Budapest



http://biorxiv.org/content/biorxiv/suppl/2017/05/09/135962.DC1/135962-1.pdf

It is Z2103 (Z2105+, CTS1078+).

Mis
05-23-2017, 08:19 PM
@ Michał
Please read about the age of L23EE
http://www.projectory.de/genetics/str/2017-05-21/y-str-report.pdf

Mis
04-14-2018, 07:02 PM
If R1b-Ph1473->M11143 Then Dys437=14
If so, Poland has men M11143.

Silesian
01-17-2019, 10:47 PM
I wonder if L23EE has something to do with the Catacomb culture. [01-07-2014, 03:29 PM]

It took 5 years +/- however the results are--

RK4002.B0101 Rasshevatskiy 4 Catacomb R-Z2103
RK4001.A0101 Rasshevatskiy 4 Catacomb R-Z2108

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1wkLjTA856nW6On8Q10U-WrhyTBWlwCVdK6AMQFCfIaw/edit#gid=202340943

Silesian
02-09-2019, 09:22 PM
Early and proto-Sarmatians connected with R-Y20993?

http://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2017/06/iron-age-nomads-vs-bronze-age-herders.html


Iron Age nomads vs Bronze Age herders: Sarmatians and Yamnaya in qpGraph

If we are to take these qpGraph models fairly literally, and I don't see why not, since they're very tight fits overall, then the early Sarmatians from what is now Pokrovka, Russia, derived almost 80% of their ancestry from Yamnaya or a very closely related group

https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Y20993/
The Pokrovka Sarmatian id:YF03134 [EarlySarmatian, 500-100 BC]-Red-box with green-[close to modern day Russians]
https://images.nature.com/m685/nature-assets/ncomms/2017/170303/ncomms14615/images/ncomms14615-f6.jpg
BU2001.A0101 Beliy Ugol 2 4674.0 --R-Y20993 https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Y20993/
[Buried under Iron Age Sarmatian burials]2867-2581BCE+/-
Eurogenes K15
28831

Silesian
02-09-2019, 10:17 PM
The importance of wood-building wagons- and climate for Yamnaya/culture-R1b Z2103-Z2110
By definition, forests thrive within this climate. Biomes within this climate regime include temperate woodlands, temperate grasslands, temperate deciduous, temperate evergreen forests,[9] and coniferous forests.[11] Within wetter areas, spruce, pine, fir, and oak can be found. Fall foliage is noted during the autumn.[7]


Humid continental climate
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Humid continental climate worldwide, utilizing the Köppen climate classification
Dsa
Dsb
Dwa
Dwb
Dfa
Dfb
A humid continental climate (Köppen prefix D and a third letter of a or b) is a climatic region defined by Russo-German climatologist Wladimir Köppen in 1900,[1] typified by large seasonal temperature differences, with warm to hot (and often humid) summers and cold (sometimes severely cold in the northern areas) winters. Precipitation is usually distributed throughout the year. The definition of this climate regarding temperature is as follows: the mean temperature of the coldest month must be below −3 °C (26.6 °F) [2](or 0 °C (32.0 °F)[3]) and there must be at least four months whose mean temperatures are at or above 10 °C (50 °F). In addition, the location in question must not be semi-arid or arid. The Dfb, Dwb and Dsb subtypes are also known as hemiboreal.

Humid continental climates are generally found roughly between latitudes 40° N and 60° N,[4] within the central and northeastern portions of North America, Europe, and Asia. They are much less commonly found in the Southern Hemisphere due to the larger ocean area at that latitude and the consequent greater maritime moderation. In the Northern Hemisphere some of the humid continental climates, typically in Scandinavia, Nova Scotia, and Newfoundland are heavily maritime-influenced, with relatively cool summers and winters being just below the freezing mark.[5] More extreme humid continental climates found in northeast China, southern Siberia, the Canadian Prairies, and the Great Lakes region of the American Midwest and Central Canada combine hotter summer maxima and colder winters than the marine-based variety.[6]





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