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mwauthy
09-15-2019, 06:03 PM
What is everyone’s opinion on I-Z17954? I-DF29 has a lot of evidence for a possible Swedish origin, yet it’s brother clade I-Z17954 does not. Only 4/177 kits claim a Swedish origin. Also, interesting is the wide distribution of I-Z17954 kits all around Europe with 16 countries being represented. I’m just curious what everyone’s thoughts are about how this might have occurred?

spruithean
09-15-2019, 07:06 PM
I've wondered this myself for all the non-DF29 I1 subclades. I really can't quite give a guess at this point, but I think if pre-I1 was widespread and the successful modern I1 lineage survived in the north then I suppose it is possible that Z17954 could have originated in Scandinavia?

I feel like we are still missing a lot of detail of the I1 story, a sample of I1c-Z17925 (downstream of Z17954) was found in a Viking Age grave in Kaargården. That could support a potential Scandinavian origin for some Z17954>Z17925 lineages. But perhaps the lineage arose more to the south, if DF29 originated in some part of Sweden perhaps Z17954 was somewhere in Jutland or somewhere in Northern Germany?

mwauthy
09-15-2019, 08:58 PM
I've wondered this myself for all the non-DF29 I1 subclades. I really can't quite give a guess at this point, but I think if pre-I1 was widespread and the successful modern I1 lineage survived in the north then I suppose it is possible that Z17954 could have originated in Scandinavia?

I feel like we are still missing a lot of detail of the I1 story, a sample of I1c-Z17925 (downstream of Z17954) was found in a Viking Age grave in Kaargården. That could support a potential Scandinavian origin for some Z17954>Z17925 lineages. But perhaps the lineage arose more to the south, if DF29 originated in some part of Sweden perhaps Z17954 was somewhere in Jutland or somewhere in Northern Germany?

There is a gentleman in the I1 project who is negative for I-DF29 and I-Z17954 and he is from Sweden so logically I-Z17954 probably originated in Sweden as well. However, similar to I-Z63 most of his descendants probably left Southern Sweden pretty quickly most likely for Northern Germany and surrounding coastal areas of Denmark and the Baltic.

JonikW
09-15-2019, 09:30 PM
As you say, it looks widely spread like I-M253 itself, which perhaps reflects its early date. It seems to have radiated out from somewhere in that same Scandinavian region, perhaps at a relatively early time (which might account for fewer Swedish testers) and been spread by various Germanic migrations since.

villandra
12-23-2019, 11:36 PM
There is a gentleman in the I1 project who is negative for I-DF29 and I-Z17954 and he is from Sweden so logically I-Z17954 probably originated in Sweden as well. However, similar to I-Z63 most of his descendants probably left Southern Sweden pretty quickly most likely for Northern Germany and surrounding coastal areas of Denmark and the Baltic.

One gentleman could have back mutated - lost and SNP his ancestors had.

In any case, if haplogroup I1 originated in Scandinavia, how come its genetic variation and oldest haplotypes have always been in Poland, and how come the entire early Bronze Age I-S2326 clade never went to Scandinavia? One of its oldest members, lacking all but Z17943 I think on that branch, came from Gdansk on the Baltic coast.

Do you all realize the proportion of the people of Sweden who did not originate there, it's very high! If this DF29- Z17954- man's SNPs reflect those of his ancestors, it's far more likely that they came from the north Polish plain like everyone else in I1 did at some point, than that they came from Sweden.

mwauthy
12-24-2019, 04:39 PM
One gentleman could have back mutated - lost and SNP his ancestors had.

In any case, if haplogroup I1 originated in Scandinavia, how come its genetic variation and oldest haplotypes have always been in Poland, and how come the entire early Bronze Age I-S2326 clade never went to Scandinavia? One of its oldest members, lacking all but Z17943 I think on that branch, came from Gdansk on the Baltic coast.

Do you all realize the proportion of the people of Sweden who did not originate there, it's very high! If this DF29- Z17954- man's SNPs reflect those of his ancestors, it's far more likely that they came from the north Polish plain like everyone else in I1 did at some point, than that they came from Sweden.


Anywhere close to the Baltic Sea region makes sense to me especially considering there are some very old subclades found only in Finland. Sweden being between Norway, Denmark, and Finland makes the most sense to me. However, I’d presume a southern Swedish coastal origin allowing for boat travel in multiple directions.

Back mutations with SNPs are astronomically rare I’ve read somewhere in the past.

JoeyP37
12-24-2019, 05:33 PM
If I1 has its highest variety and oldest haplotypes in Poland, than my theory of I1 coming to Scandinavia with R1a in the Corded Ware/Battle Axe migrations makes a lot of sense.

oz
12-24-2019, 07:59 PM
If I1 has its highest variety and oldest haplotypes in Poland, than my theory of I1 coming to Scandinavia with R1a in the Corded Ware/Battle Axe migrations makes a lot of sense.

One little problem with that, R1a is much more common in Poland while I1 is significantly more common in Scandinavia. But then again, the Slavic migrations theory reflects the same thing with I2 in the Balkans.

JonikW
12-25-2019, 01:16 AM
If I1 has its highest variety and oldest haplotypes in Poland, than my theory of I1 coming to Scandinavia with R1a in the Corded Ware/Battle Axe migrations makes a lot of sense.

I'm interested in what these "oldest haplotypes in Poland" are. Anyone got any info? The evidence I'm aware of points to Scandinavia for modern I1 but I'm always open to learning something.

spruithean
12-25-2019, 03:12 AM
If I1 has its highest variety and oldest haplotypes in Poland, than my theory of I1 coming to Scandinavia with R1a in the Corded Ware/Battle Axe migrations makes a lot of sense.

Do you have a source for the claim that the oldest I1 haplotypes are from Poland? I'd be wary of equating the perceived age of a haplotype with the origin point of a haplogroup.