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de Burgh
09-19-2019, 04:44 PM
At the DF27 project at FTdna the question was asked, what is the earliest proof of DF27 in Britain? Does anyone have a reply to this?

razyn
09-19-2019, 09:24 PM
The "earliest proof" type question isn't very useful, unless you happen to ask it about one of the three or four subclades belonging to the earliest dead guys who have been sequenced. But a lot of other guys died that same year, even if it was 2473 BC. They just haven't (1) lasted long enough, (2) been found, (3) gotten sequenced, and (4) belonged to one of the haplogroups or subclades the researchers knew to look for. Oddly enough, it's probably #4 that makes DF27, and some of its early subclades, less likely to be found than (for example) L21, or the U152 subclade L2.

On the other hand, "Britain" (broadly speaking) is among the places being actively researched, lately. As distinguished from Belarus, or France.

EastAnglian
11-21-2019, 10:00 AM
I think if DF27 was found it would be in one of the hotspots in the South West of England or Cornwall.

Tomenable
11-21-2019, 03:03 PM
On YFull, I have one distant British Y-STR match, but he has a different terminal SNP.

Looking at formation time estimates, our subclades split ~3600 years before present.

His most distant known ancestor was from 1600s Cornwall:

born ca. 1670 prob. Cornwall, Eng. died 1710 Bucks Co., PA

https://i.imgur.com/meHHdeP.png

SNP matches are more relevant than STR matches, right?

=====

Based on STR matches, I have common ancestor with this Cornish guy ~3600 years ago.

Based on SNP matches, I have common ancestor with some Spaniards ~2900 years ago.

Cornwall-Poland-Spain, 1600-900 BCE, looks like Celtic connection ???

Webb
11-22-2019, 12:09 AM
I think if DF27 was found it would be in one of the hotspots in the South West of England or Cornwall.

Mitchellsince18something posted several heat maps a couple of years ago comparing DF27 and U152 in England proper. Iíll post them sometime tomorrow, but you are correct that DF27 density is greatest in South West England, particularly Cornwall and Devon. The only drawback is he used FTDNA kits who self reported MDKA.

ADW_1981
11-25-2019, 06:08 PM
At the DF27 project at FTdna the question was asked, what is the earliest proof of DF27 in Britain? Does anyone have a reply to this?

My (personal) view is that most Z209 came to Britain with the Normans, though it doesn't necessarily need to include 100% of us. However, there are branchings of DF27+ earlier on the node tree, who may have settled in Britain or Ireland much earlier, although there is no concrete data to prove this yet, just modern living individuals on the ytree.

ADW_1981
11-25-2019, 06:10 PM
On YFull, I have one distant British Y-STR match, but he has a different terminal SNP.

Looking at formation time estimates, our subclades split ~3600 years before present.

His most distant known ancestor was from 1600s Cornwall:

born ca. 1670 prob. Cornwall, Eng. died 1710 Bucks Co., PA

https://i.imgur.com/meHHdeP.png

SNP matches are more relevant than STR matches, right?

=====

Based on STR matches, I have common ancestor with this Cornish guy ~3600 years ago.

Based on SNP matches, I have common ancestor with some Spaniards ~2900 years ago.

Cornwall-Poland-Spain, 1600-900 BCE, looks like Celtic connection ???

Looks more like central European "Celtic", rather than that first late Neo/early bronze BB push who have all been L21+ to this point or had an ambiguous terminal SNP with nothing below P312.

Tomenable
11-27-2019, 02:21 PM
Y-Full has just updated my SNP matches increasing them from 2 to 17 (!), and reduced TMRCA estimate from 3600 to 3400 ybp (or ~1400 BCE):

https://i.imgur.com/CFPnl7Z.png

^^^
Looks like I could be right when I first suggested that the link between Luggones / Lugii / Lugi was more than just name, but also shared origin?:

https://kingsandconquerors.fandom.com/wiki/Lugians/History

^^^
Quote: "Among the easternmost Celtic tribes in Germania, the Lugii lived in the area which today roughly forms the meeting point between eastern Slovakia, southern Poland and western Ukraine (...) The Lugii name, also used by an insular Gaulish (British/Pictish) tribe in Scotland (...) In northern Iberia a sub-tribe of the Astures carried the name Luggones, and nearby were the similarly named Louguei sub-tribe of the Gallaeci. (...)"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lugi - in Britain/Scotland

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lugii - in Poland/Ukraine

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_the_Pre-Roman_peoples_of_the_Iberian_Peninsula#Celts - in Spain

Honestly it is hard to find a better explanation. TMRCA around 1400 BCE is too late for Bell Beakers, too early for barbarian invasions of Rome.

Webb
11-28-2019, 03:15 AM
https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?18112-Hoping-to-join-the-club&p=594009&viewfull=1#post594009

This is a link to the three heat map/ pie graphs that Mitchell made up comparing U152 to DF27 in England proper.

rms2
11-28-2019, 03:30 AM
I'm gonna go out on a limb and predict that lot of big surprises are coming up, including DF27 in Corded Ware. How's that for some bold prognostication? Either I don't know shit from Shinola, or I'm a genius.

I think it's going to turn out that the Indo-Europeanization of Northern and Western Europe was a Corded Ware-to-Kurgan-Bell-Beaker thing in which DF27 was heavily involved.

Sue me if I'm wrong.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E0t3RPZgEUg

sktibo
11-28-2019, 06:38 AM
I'm gonna go out on a limb and predict that lot of big surprises are coming up, including DF27 in Corded Ware. How's that for some bold prognostication? Either I don't know shit from Shinola, or I'm a genius.

I think it's going to turn out that the Indo-Europeanization of Northern and Western Europe was a Corded Ware-to-Kurgan-Bell-Beaker thing in which DF27 was heavily involved.

Sue me if I'm wrong.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E0t3RPZgEUg

Whatever it turns out to be I feel like exciting times are ahead for us DF27 folks. Whether my paternal ancestor was a Goth or a Gaul, I'm just excited to get to know the guy better. Also, the Jerk was a hilarious movie.

MitchellSince1893
01-26-2020, 04:58 PM
I was discussing the possible Tungri Roman auxiliary impact on Britain in this U152 thread (Tungri tribe occupied and area of Belgium with the highest present day concentration of U152 men...33% of samples)
https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?36-R1b-U152-Updates-News&p=640603&viewfull=1#post640603
https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?36-R1b-U152-Updates-News&p=640633&viewfull=1#post640633

The unusual amount of haplgroup E in Northern Wales possibly/probably due to Roman Era arrivals from the Balkans is illustrative of how this impact can still be seen today.
https://www.jogg.info/pages/32/bird.htm

Interestingly, 1st Cohort of Aquitani
was a Roman auxiliary infantry regiment. It was probably originally raised in Gallia Aquitania in the reign of founder-emperor Augustus after the revolt of the Aquitani was suppressed in 26 BC.[1] Unlike most Gauls, the Aquitani were not Celtic-speaking but spoke Aquitanian, a now extinct non Indo-European language closely related to Basque.

Based on present day distribution and ancient dna samples, I would assume this unit from Gallia Aquitania would have a significant amount of DF27 and I2 haplogroups in it.
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/02/Roman_Empire_-_Aquitania_%28125_AD%29.svg/1024px-Roman_Empire_-_Aquitania_%28125_AD%29.svg.png

It is estimated that ~80% of Roman auxiliaries that made it to retirement stayed in the province they were stationed.

1st Cohort of Aquitani was stationed in England starting in 122 AD and served in Norfolk (Brancaster 4th century), Derbyshire (Bakewell & Brough-on-Noe 2nd century), and Northumberland (Carraburgh).
I2 was probably already present in significant numbers prior to arrival of the Romans (and Bell Beaker). So additional I2 from the Romans wouldn't really stand out...maybe Norfolk is the exception.
https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/2c/a5/62/2ca5624c386710760ecddeb4e5245f08.png

But DF27 input from the Roman era might be more noticeable in present day distributions.
https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/27/64/29/276429d1201a10b7d87ab553420f8c6f.png
DF27 does have a higher concentration in the Derbyshire and neighboring areas. No way to prove/disprove at the moment, but maybe the Roman era arrivals from Aquitaine were part of the reason for this Central England DF27 hotspot.

razyn
01-26-2020, 05:28 PM
I think that to use modern political boundaries, to carve up islands for mapping something that happened several thousand years ago, is to shoot oneself in the foot. Or head.

I know it's a map of modern samples, and those are the boundaries by which the stats have been gathered. But erasing Wales and Scotland, e.g., doesn't depict an ancient geographical reality; and DF27 was in the said isles anciently. We just quibble about how anciently, until we get more ancient DNA (and have learned how to identify DF27 within it).

MitchellSince1893
01-26-2020, 05:37 PM
I think that to use modern political boundaries, to carve up islands for mapping something that happened several thousand years ago, is to shoot oneself in the foot. Or head.

I know it's a map of modern samples, and those are the boundaries by which the stats have been gathered. But erasing Wales and Scotland, e.g., doesn't depict an ancient geographical reality; and DF27 was in the said isles anciently. We just quibble about how anciently, until we get more ancient DNA (and have learned how to identify DF27 within it).

There's no quibbling. I was very careful to say "possibly", "may", "might" contribute to a present day DF27 hot spot.

Much like I view U152 in Britain, I have no doubt that DF27 arrived in Britain with Bell Beaker, and more with Bronze and Iron Age arrivals.

I'm just using the present day haplogroup E hot spot in Northern Wales, as an example of the possible Roman Era genetic impact that is still visible in present day Britain. https://www.jogg.info/pages/32/bird.htm (edited my previous post to include a link)