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Jon
09-22-2019, 10:02 AM
Hi Guys,

I posted on this before, but I've done some more research, so here goes:

In my historical reading, I've come across something which might be of interest to those of us in L193/Z17817.

As some of you may know, my surname Sharp is found all over Scotland, with hotspots in Perthshire and around the central belt. I so far do not match any Sharps on the databases, including those from Ayrshire, where my line traces back to. My earliest traceable ancestors are in Cumnock, Ayrshire, in 1742. Before that we lose them. However, the old Gaelic surname Mac-Gil-Chiaran (MacIlheran) was changed to Sharp in the mid-1700's. The surname was mostly found on the Clyde island of Bute.

I discovered an old census record of Bute surnames from 1841, and an astonishing number of our Z17817 names (or variants thereof) are in there. Here's a list:

Z17817 name // Name on Bute (1841)

Blair --> Blair (77th spot)
Macdonald --> Macdonald (25th spot)
Davidson --> Davidson (81st spot)
Craig --> Craig (94th spot)
McAfee/MacDuffee --> Macfie (20th spot) Mcfee (50th)
Crist --> Gilchrist (98th spot)
McCalib --> Mckillop (103rd spot)
Black --> Black (16th spot)
Campbell --> Campbell (4th spot)
Henderson --> Henderson (89th spot)
Sharp --> Sharp (30th spot)

This seems to be an astonishing rate of similarity. What always struck me in Z17817, and indeed in L193 more generally, was the mixture of Gaelic and non-Gaelic names. The Isle of Bute is right by the Firth of Clyde, so in early medieval times sat bang in the middle of Dalriada to one side (Cowal) and the Kingdom of Strathclyde to the other. Its population will have been mixed from very early on, and there are traces of both P-Celtic (Brythonic) and Q-Celtic (Gaelic) languages. Not only would this be an answer to the puzzle of my own lost line, but might hold a key to other Z17817 lineages. Needless to say, many other L193 surnames are on this list as well. I will post the link below, and would very much like to hear others' opinions on this.

https://www.oldscottish.com/bute.html

Best,

Jon

TigerMW
09-23-2019, 10:37 PM
Hi Guys,

I posted on this before, but I've done some more research, so here goes:

In my historical reading, I've come across something which might be of interest to those of us in L193/Z17817.

As some of you may know, my surname Sharp is found all over Scotland, with hotspots in Perthshire and around the central belt. I so far do not match any Sharps on the databases, including those from Ayrshire, where my line traces back to. My earliest traceable ancestors are in Cumnock, Ayrshire, in 1742. Before that we lose them. However, the old Gaelic surname Mac-Gil-Chiaran (MacIlheran) was changed to Sharp in the mid-1700's. The surname was mostly found on the Clyde island of Bute.

I discovered an old census record of Bute surnames from 1841, and an astonishing number of our Z17817 names (or variants thereof) are in there. Here's a list:

Z17817 name // Name on Bute (1841)

Blair --> Blair (77th spot)
Macdonald --> Macdonald (25th spot)
Davidson --> Davidson (81st spot)
Craig --> Craig (94th spot)
McAfee/MacDuffee --> Macfie (20th spot) Mcfee (50th)
Crist --> Gilchrist (98th spot)
McCalib --> Mckillop (103rd spot)
Black --> Black (16th spot)
Campbell --> Campbell (4th spot)
Henderson --> Henderson (89th spot)
Sharp --> Sharp (30th spot)

This seems to be an astonishing rate of similarity. What always struck me in Z17817, and indeed in L193 more generally, was the mixture of Gaelic and non-Gaelic names. The Isle of Bute is right by the Firth of Clyde, so in early medieval times sat bang in the middle of Dalriada to one side (Cowal) and the Kingdom of Strathclyde to the other. Its population will have been mixed from very early on, and there are traces of both P-Celtic (Brythonic) and Q-Celtic (Gaelic) languages. Not only would this be an answer to the puzzle of my own lost line, but might hold a key to other Z17817 lineages. Needless to say, many other L193 surnames are on this list as well. I will post the link below, and would very much like to hear others' opinions on this.

https://www.oldscottish.com/bute.html

Best,

Jon
You've seen what I've posted on the L513 forums. When I look at all of R1b-S5982(L193), not just Z17817, I don't see the Old Irish surnames. Since the early branching occurred before the time of Dal Riati, if there was such a Dal Riati and Scotti migration to Scotland, S5982 didn't leave any remnants in the old homeland (Ireland). I think S5982 was in Scotland and maybe even England before it got over to Ulster.

Jon
10-10-2019, 11:57 AM
You've seen what I've posted on the L513 forums. When I look at all of R1b-S5982(L193), not just Z17817, I don't see the Old Irish surnames. Since the early branching occurred before the time of Dal Riati, if there was such a Dal Riati and Scotti migration to Scotland, S5982 didn't leave any remnants in the old homeland (Ireland). I think S5982 was in Scotland and maybe even England before it got over to Ulster.

Thanks for your input Mike. The thing about Bute, however, is that it sits pretty much in the middle between Gaelic and Brythonic areas. That's why you see a mix of names there, as contrasted with the outer Hebrides, for example, where Gaelic names are in the vast majority. Even if S5982 came through Scotland, and even England and elsewhere, I don't see anything to necessarily discount the possibility that some of these guys ended up, via those migrations, on Bute (which is very close to other L193 areas like Ayrshire), then picked up their Gaelic surnames later when Bute was Gaelic speaking.

The reason I focused specifically on Z17817 is that, as far as I'm aware, we're getting pretty close there to the surname/genealogical era. Which raised my attention in terms of the sheer number of Z17817 names found in this Bute list.

Having said all that, I've also reconnected with the Meek Facebook group (my closest match under Z17817), and the common Meek/Sharp link in genealogical terms, seems to be further north, around central Loch Lomond/Perth areas.

MacUalraig
10-20-2019, 03:22 PM
Hi Guys,

I posted on this before, but I've done some more research, so here goes:

In my historical reading, I've come across something which might be of interest to those of us in L193/Z17817.

As some of you may know, my surname Sharp is found all over Scotland, with hotspots in Perthshire and around the central belt. I so far do not match any Sharps on the databases, including those from Ayrshire, where my line traces back to. My earliest traceable ancestors are in Cumnock, Ayrshire, in 1742. Before that we lose them. However, the old Gaelic surname Mac-Gil-Chiaran (MacIlheran) was changed to Sharp in the mid-1700's. The surname was mostly found on the Clyde island of Bute.

I discovered an old census record of Bute surnames from 1841, and an astonishing number of our Z17817 names (or variants thereof) are in there. Here's a list:

Z17817 name // Name on Bute (1841)

Blair --> Blair (77th spot)
Macdonald --> Macdonald (25th spot)
Davidson --> Davidson (81st spot)
Craig --> Craig (94th spot)
McAfee/MacDuffee --> Macfie (20th spot) Mcfee (50th)
Crist --> Gilchrist (98th spot)
McCalib --> Mckillop (103rd spot)
Black --> Black (16th spot)
Campbell --> Campbell (4th spot)
Henderson --> Henderson (89th spot)
Sharp --> Sharp (30th spot)

This seems to be an astonishing rate of similarity. What always struck me in Z17817, and indeed in L193 more generally, was the mixture of Gaelic and non-Gaelic names. The Isle of Bute is right by the Firth of Clyde, so in early medieval times sat bang in the middle of Dalriada to one side (Cowal) and the Kingdom of Strathclyde to the other. Its population will have been mixed from very early on, and there are traces of both P-Celtic (Brythonic) and Q-Celtic (Gaelic) languages. Not only would this be an answer to the puzzle of my own lost line, but might hold a key to other Z17817 lineages. Needless to say, many other L193 surnames are on this list as well. I will post the link below, and would very much like to hear others' opinions on this.

https://www.oldscottish.com/bute.html

Best,

Jon

I think you'd need to demonstrate that Bute is the top place for that combination of surnames especially as some of them are very widespread and don't originate there. Davidson for example is very widespread.