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rossa
01-06-2014, 08:04 PM
Gerard, if by Septs of Laois and Osraige you mean the Ui Bairrche of Co Laois, I see your point. The Ely O Carroll DNA appears indistinguishable from that of those Traceys and Gorman in the DF21 project. MacGorman was chief of Crioch Ui Bairrche and O Tracy was chief of Ui Bairrche Tire. Apart from matching with Ely O Carroll DNA, the Traceys match with several other Ui Bairrche surnames including Brennan, Cullen, Cummin and others who both Sean Tracy and I have been unsuccessful in recruiting to the DF21 project. You are right that we need more data, and more recruits. Some of the potential recruits are out there already but consider tribal origins as well beyond their interest in immediate family.

The genealogy of the Three Collas looks dubious. If they descend from the great-uncle of Niall they would presumably be M222+. Either their genealogy or the Three Collas' actual existence is questionable, one or the other. Perhaps both. Rather than Ely O Carroll being descended from the Airghialla, Tom O'Connor's "Hand of History" would have it the other way around. That is, the Airghialla are an offshoot of the Ely. While Fr O'Connor has not looked to DNA evidence for support, it may be coming. Those Airghialla and Ely O Carroll guys doing Big Y might provide the data to decide this issue either way.

With the little that we have at present, I tend to read it as DF21 settling in southeast Leinster, being pushed north to Laois and west to Eile and Osraige by the incoming L159.2 Laigin, and some DF21 seeking their fortunes as marcher lords by serving the Connaught dynasty against Ulster to become the Airghialla. Something similar may have happened with the other DF21 pockets, often located on past frontiers between bigger dynasties. The Tradraige on the shifting frontier between Munster and Connaught are another example. I look forward to Big Y results from yourself and Rowan in "21-1123", plus other DF21 subgroups with Big Y tests in the pipeline. It may not be what either of us expect but it will be interesting. Some long-held beliefs based on written genealogies may be exposed as baseless. But their place will be taken by some real data. May you gain heaps of it. Best wishes.

What's the mian thrust of O'Connors arguement? I know he has issues with claimed genolaogies, but I also seem to remember he claims that Belgic groups made it to Ireland in larger numbers than previously acknowledged.

Rory Cain
01-08-2014, 02:56 AM
What's the mian thrust of O'Connors arguement? I know he has issues with claimed genolaogies, but I also seem to remember he claims that Belgic groups made it to Ireland in larger numbers than previously acknowledged.

Posted by Rossa 01-06-2014 on R-DF21 thread. It seems to fit better here. O'Connor is Fr Tom O'Connor, author of "Hand of History". The long accepted work on the peopling of Ireland was the Lebor Gabala Erenn or Book of Invasions. This was a political rather than historical work, designed to legitimise the ruling dynasties of the day. In summary, the LGE claimed the following invasions waves of settlers:
- Assyrian king Ninus son of Belus, no permanent settlement
- Muintir Phartholain from the Greek world, 2068-2018 BC
- 30 years of desolation
- Muintir Neimhidh from Scythia via northern Europe 1988-1738 BC
- 30 years of isolation
- Formorians, who wiped out the Muintir Neimhidh settlement
- Fir Belg including three tribes of Fir Domnainn, Fir Galioin and Laigin) from Grecian Thrace 1708-1456 BC
- Tuatha de Dana from Greece 1456-1016 BC
- sons of Mil or Gaedhels from Scythia via Spain 1016 BC
- Cruithne or Picts allowed to settle by the Milesians

Being myth, little or no historical support was ever found to support this reappearing bunch of Scythians who kept coming back under different names. O'Rahilly's Historical Model was put forward as an alternative in T. F. O'Rahilly's Early Irish History and Mythology:
- Pretani aka Cruithin aka Picts ca 700-500 BC
- Fir Belg or Erainn ca 500 BC
- Laigin ca 300 BC
- Goidels or Gaels ca 100 BC.

Fr Tom O'Connor's Hand of History, as I understand it anyway, has:
- Cruithne as the aboriginal population of Ireland and Britain
- Fir Belg or the Belgae from the Continent via Britain to Ireland, not as a datable single invasion in the mode of Lebor Gabala Erenn but as successive waves of settlers, the last arrivals being as a result of Roman invasions of Belgica and Britain.
The mythical sons of Mil were just Belgae who simply "recreated" themselves, or rather their political propagandists did. The term Gaedhil was simply the Welsh term for an Irishman and not a separate wave of invaders. As upsetting as this might be to some of my fellow Irish, O'Connor's work may align Ireland's pre-history with that of neighbouring Britain. To a geographer the obvious way to reach Ireland from Belgica or Gaul would be via Britain, however offensive that concept might be to Irish nationalists.

Rory Cain
01-08-2014, 03:24 AM
I provided a partial answer under the Thread: Ancestral Journeys: The Peopling of Europe from the First Venturers to the Vikings. To stay on topic under that three I just dealt with the waves of settlers mentioned in Lebor Gabala Erenn (Book of Invasions), TF O'Rahilly's Historical Model, and FrTom O'Connor's Hand of History. It's still a big topic though, for O'Connor's work is like an onion, with many layers.

The main thrust of his work is that Irish history is largely a political propaganda designed to legitimise those upstart regimes that found themselves in power when the monks started recording iris "history". The monks of Armagh had there own political aspirations, to become the prime religious capital of Ireland. Under the patronage of the Ui Niall, they fabricated the institution of the High Kingship which if it ever existed was a very recent thing. The monks made it go way back forever. They also shifted the capital of the Ui Niall/ Ui Briuin/ Ui Fiachra dynasty from Turoe, Co Galway, to Tara, Co Meath. Despite the myth, Tara is a fairly recent site. This remains controversial and I am not seeking to argue over it. I prefer people will read O'Connor than argue with me.

Amongst the other matters raised in O'Connor, the widespread fabrication of genealogies is less open to dispute. Numerous examples are already accepted as fabrications, and with DNA, more fabrications are emerging. O'Connor provides the political background to this process. O'Rahilly already exposed a number of examples of ruling dynasties finally embracing rebellious tribes who they could not overrun, so instead incorporated them into the genealogy of the ruling dynasty. It was also done as a reward. My sept with SNP DF21 betraying their Leinster origins, were nonetheless rewarded with royal genealogies by the dynasties of both Munster and Connaught who they had served at various times.

O'Rahilly already simplified the Lebor Gabala Erenn's list of incestuous invaders all related to each other down to a clear and more believable list in his Historical Model. O'Connor simplifies this further to just aboriginal Cruithne resisting expanding Fir Belg settlements staying one country ahead of Roman invasions. If a modern-day Irishman is not descended from the aboriginal Cruithne, then he is likely Fir Belg or Belgae. Gaedhel or Gael is just a derivative of the Welsh name for an Irishman and not a separate and distinct invasion as the Lebor Gabala Erenn made it to cover the then ruling dynasties. After the bad press the Fir Belg have suffered over the years, it will be hard for many Irish to accept that most of us are in fact Fir Belg or Belgae, the last wave to arrive before the Vikings. O'Connor has shaken things up nicely. For too long Irish historians have been revisionists. They just kept revising and revising the same stuff. Now O'Connor has given us something new to work with. It took a long time after O'Rahilly wrote (1946) to find another irish historian with his courage and insight.

If there is a defect, perhaps it is that O'Connor has not yet looked at DNA. Yet his recording of the movements of the Brigantes and Manapi appear to match where we are find DF21 and Z253. DNA is a layer to the onion that O'Connor missed and others may have to add.

rossa
01-08-2014, 07:05 PM
Thanks Rory. Although it does seem The Book of Invasions claims were slowly being chipped away at, for example Macallister in the 30's.
http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/originstories.shtml

Now, regarding the term Cruithin I always thought it was an Iron Age terrm for Britons. Why does he use this term, is it unrelated to the other or does he think the ocntext it's normally used in is wrong?

Rory Cain
01-08-2014, 09:50 PM
Thanks Rory. Although it does seem The Book of Invasions claims were slowly being chipped away at, for example Macallister in the 30's.
http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/originstories.shtml

Now, regarding the term Cruithin I always thought it was an Iron Age terrm for Britons. Why does he use this term, is it unrelated to the other or does he think the ocntext it's normally used in is wrong?

Buried under the names that the Romans, the monks of Armagh and the English used for us, it's fairly simple. Many of us used tribal names that expressed our spiritual beliefs. What I believe to be my tribe and who were known in Britain as Brigantes were in Irish language the Ui Bairrche, people of the "Most High". Similarly, the aboriginal Cruithin who the Ui Bairrche pushed north derive their name from a word meaning "to create", so they bear the name of their God, the Creator. We irish haven't changed much in all these years, have we?

You are also right from an outsider's perspective in identifying the Cruithin as they called themselves with the Pretani or Pritani as Greek geographer Ptolomey called them. This is the likely source of the name "British Isles". Then the Romans came along and named them Picti or "painted ones". To justify the dispossession of the Cruithin the Lebor Gabala Erenn makes them arrive after the fictional Milesians (who were actually the final wave of Fir Belg), and beg approval to settle in east Ulster. In fact they had once held all of the British Isles before being confined to east Ulster in Ireland and north of the Firth in Scotland. Some refer to "Pictish DNA" in reference to what I understand to be the Scots Modal Haplotype. Yet in Ireland there has been a tendency to identify the Cruithin with haplogroup I, on the basis that it is found in some surnames thought to be descended from the Cruithin. Frankly I just don't know. I would like to see something more comprehensive before deciding.

Rory Cain
01-11-2014, 10:41 PM
A further thread on this subject is at http://listsearches.rootsweb.com/th/read/GENEALOGY-DNA/2006-02/1139818977

My interest was initially sparked by seeing the name Gangani on Ptolomey's ca 150 AD map of Britain and Ireland, in the locations where Mike's Variety 11169 DNA has been found- north Wales and far west Ireland. www.historyfiles.co.uk/KingListsBritain/BritainDeceangli.htm deals with the Gangani and their offshoot the Deceangli, "it seems that they may have first settled in Ireland and then migrated to western Britain by the first century BC at the latest, as the name 'Lleyn' Peninsula seems to be derived from Laigin, the oder form of Leinster." However this account possibly confuses an early Gangani settlement from Connaught 1st C BC with a later 4th C AD settlement from Munster. At this later date Crimthann mac Fidaig was king of both Munster and Connaught 366-379 AD and under his sponsorship the Ui Liathain, Laigin, Deisi and their allies acted with a degree of concert in establishing colonies in Gwynedd (North Wales) and elsewhere.

The Welsh settlements of Crimthann approximate when the O'Cathain sept in Ireland and the Griffeth/ Hughes/ Jones/ Morgan/ Thomas etc North Wales group last shared a common ancestor. The Tradraige from who the O'Cathain sept appear to descend were then located in Munster, under the rule of Crimthann. According to O'Connor the Gangani were the ruling dynasty of Connaught. The Gangani settlement appears too early to account for the O'Cathain sept and the North Wales Griffeth (etc) group sharing a haplotype and a common ancestor. The later Munster and Laigin settlement is consistent with the estimated TMRCA. Crimthann was a ruler from the Eoganachta dynasty and the Tradraige, who apparently participated in the Welsh colony, were one of the "Seven Onaghts" of the Saertuatha Muma or Munster nobility. The Ui Liathain, who took a leading role in colonising Gwynedd and Cornwall, were also one of the "Seven Onaghts".

My ole buddy Griff has been lamenting the lack of Welsh content on Anthrogenica. The written histories also contain very little on folk movements between Ireland and Wales except for the later Norman-Welsh invasion of Ireland in 1169. O'Connor redresses this lack somewhat, although reading him is like peeling an onion. One keeps finding more layers. Perhaps DNA results will add another layer.

alan
01-12-2014, 12:59 PM
While I totally agree that early Irish literature has to be seen in light of the distorting motives that kingdoms, lineages and monastic confederations had, I think his case for much in the way of Belgae in Ireland is very weak and would not be supported by archaeologists. The Belgae had distinctive burial rites, metalwork, pottery etc, none of which has ever been found in Ireland.

Griff
01-12-2014, 03:18 PM
O'Connor redresses this lack somewhat, although reading him is like peeling an onion. One keeps finding more layers ....
and weeping copiously. (Sorry, I couldn't stop myself :P

Rory Cain
01-13-2014, 01:59 AM
While I totally agree that early Irish literature has to be seen in light of the distorting motives that kingdoms, lineages and monastic confederations had, I think his case for much in the way of Belgae in Ireland is very weak and would not be supported by archaeologists. The Belgae had distinctive burial rites, metalwork, pottery etc, none of which has ever been found in Ireland.

If you are into archeology, then you would possibly enjoy reading O'Connor as he devotes quite a bit of space to discussing the Belgic defensive system as found in Belgia and Belgic districts of Britain and Ireland.

As the late John McLaughlin said in the Rootsweb post I referenced above, "O'Rahilly builds up a pretty convincing case for the Belgae in Ireland", beginning with an analysis of the tribal names on Ptolemy's map. "O'Rahilly then spends a chapter on the name Fir Bolg which he states came from Builg which in turn correlates with Belgae and cites several instances in the old irish genealogies where bolt turns up in personal names, such as in Oengus Bolg of the Corcu Loigde or in the Ui Builg, the tribe of O hEtersceoil or O'Driscoll. Builg (Fir Bolg) and Erainn were two names for the same people." So you might enjoy O'Rahilly as well.

Then there is Norman Mongan's Menapia Quest. He wrote the first historical account of a Belgic tribe recorded on both the Continent and in Ireland. Note that all the above wrote before DNA testing became widespread. Yet DNA results have supported many of their statements. I found some time ago that I had to dump the pulp-mill-press version of Irish "history" that just did not confirm with DNA results, and look instead to O'Rahilly, O'Connor and Mongan who, if not always right, at least provide a more accurate historical picture against which to view new DNA results.

alan
01-13-2014, 06:13 AM
As you discussed above, for many decades it has been realised that so much of early Irish history, genealogies etc were rewritten as tribal or monastic propaganda its very hard to pick out the genuine elements. I did some training in these sources at university decades ago and we were essentially taught them from the point of view of propaganda and hidden motive rather than face value.

I do believe that terms like Cruithin, Errain, Fir Bolg, Fir Domnain etc once had a real specific meaning as strata in the Irish population but the original meaning is lost and distorted in early Irish sources leaving only the names on solid ground and what has been gleaned from them really just what modern linguistic experts have been able to tease out of the names.

I have an open mind on the Belgae but at present the evidence is not great IMO and I would like to hear archaeologists feelings on the claims by O'Connor.

On the other hand the Milesian type model has no basis in native Irish tradition at all and is basically a classical fabrication. Terms like Gael, Scot, Miles Espain, Parthalon etc seem to have come from British, Classical and Biblical sources and probably have no native origin.


If you are into archeology, then you would possibly enjoy reading O'Connor as he devotes quite a bit of space to discussing the Belgic defensive system as found in Belgia and Belgic districts of Britain and Ireland.

As the late John McLaughlin said in the Rootsweb post I referenced above, "O'Rahilly builds up a pretty convincing case for the Belgae in Ireland", beginning with an analysis of the tribal names on Ptolemy's map. "O'Rahilly then spends a chapter on the name Fir Bolg which he states came from Builg which in turn correlates with Belgae and cites several instances in the old irish genealogies where bolt turns up in personal names, such as in Oengus Bolg of the Corcu Loigde or in the Ui Builg, the tribe of O hEtersceoil or O'Driscoll. Builg (Fir Bolg) and Erainn were two names for the same people." So you might enjoy O'Rahilly as well.

Then there is Norman Mongan's Menapia Quest. He wrote the first historical account of a Belgic tribe recorded on both the Continent and in Ireland. Note that all the above wrote before DNA testing became widespread. Yet DNA results have supported many of their statements. I found some time ago that I had to dump the pulp-mill-press version of Irish "history" that just did not confirm with DNA results, and look instead to O'Rahilly, O'Connor and Mongan who, if not always right, at least provide a more accurate historical picture against which to view new DNA results.

rossa
01-13-2014, 06:21 PM
A further thread on this subject is at http://listsearches.rootsweb.com/th/read/GENEALOGY-DNA/2006-02/1139818977

My interest was initially sparked by seeing the name Gangani on Ptolomey's ca 150 AD map of Britain and Ireland, in the locations where Mike's Variety 11169 DNA has been found- north Wales and far west Ireland. www.historyfiles.co.uk/KingListsBritain/BritainDeceangli.htm deals with the Gangani and their offshoot the Deceangli, "it seems that they may have first settled in Ireland and then migrated to western Britain by the first century BC at the latest, as the name 'Lleyn' Peninsula seems to be derived from Laigin, the oder form of Leinster." However this account possibly confuses an early Gangani settlement from Connaught 1st C BC with a later 4th C AD settlement from Munster. At this later date Crimthann mac Fidaig was king of both Munster and Connaught 366-379 AD and under his sponsorship the Ui Liathain, Laigin, Deisi and their allies acted with a degree of concert in establishing colonies in Gwynedd (North Wales) and elsewhere.

The Welsh settlements of Crimthann approximate when the O'Cathain sept in Ireland and the Griffeth/ Hughes/ Jones/ Morgan/ Thomas etc North Wales group last shared a common ancestor. The Tradraige from who the O'Cathain sept appear to descend were then located in Munster, under the rule of Crimthann. According to O'Connor the Gangani were the ruling dynasty of Connaught. The Gangani settlement appears too early to account for the O'Cathain sept and the North Wales Griffeth (etc) group sharing a haplotype and a common ancestor. The later Munster and Laigin settlement is consistent with the estimated TMRCA. Crimthann was a ruler from the Eoganachta dynasty and the Tradraige, who apparently participated in the Welsh colony, were one of the "Seven Onaghts" of the Saertuatha Muma or Munster nobility. The Ui Liathain, who took a leading role in colonising Gwynedd and Cornwall, were also one of the "Seven Onaghts".

My ole buddy Griff has been lamenting the lack of Welsh content on Anthrogenica. The written histories also contain very little on folk movements between Ireland and Wales except for the later Norman-Welsh invasion of Ireland in 1169. O'Connor redresses this lack somewhat, although reading him is like peeling an onion. One keeps finding more layers. Perhaps DNA results will add another layer.

What is the connection he makes between the Fir Bolg and Belgae? I seem to remember a thread on DNA Forums where you mentioned the Gangani, from what I remember they were in Clare.
It seems similar to how the Fir Domnann of the Fir Bolg are linked to the Dumnonni of Britain (Irish coastal groups who arrived from Briatain).
I hope to read his book in the future, it's always good to read dissenting voices but I've gotten cynical after reading stuff on the web (various topics) that seems to be dissenting for the sake of it.

Rory Cain
01-13-2014, 11:31 PM
As you discussed above, for many decades it has been realised that so much of early Irish history, genealogies etc were rewritten as tribal or monastic propaganda its very hard to pick out the genuine elements. I did some training in these sources at university decades ago and we were essentially taught them from the point of view of propaganda and hidden motive rather than face value.

I do believe that terms like Cruithin, Errain, Fir Bolg, Fir Domnain etc once had a real specific meaning as strata in the Irish population but the original meaning is lost and distorted in early Irish sources leaving only the names on solid ground and what has been gleaned from them really just what modern linguistic experts have been able to tease out of the names.

I have an open mind on the Belgae but at present the evidence is not great IMO and I would like to hear archaeologists feelings on the claims by O'Connor.

On the other hand the Milesian type model has no basis in native Irish tradition at all and is basically a classical fabrication. Terms like Gael, Scot, Miles Espain, Parthalon etc seem to have come from British, Classical and Biblical sources and probably have no native origin.

All true. So to summarise, the choice is one between the Milesian myth for which there is no real evidence or O'Rahilly and O'Connor for which there is some evidence? Hmmm, I know which I will discard and which I will explore further. I'll follow up further on the guys who have at least some evidence supporting them.

BTW, what did you think of Norman Mongan's Menapia Quest? The first history of a Belgic tribe known to have inhabited both Belgica and Ireland would appear to go straight to the issue you raised about lack of evidence for the Belgae in Ireland.

Rory Cain
01-31-2014, 02:35 AM
What is the connection he makes between the Fir Bolg and Belgae? I seem to remember a thread on DNA Forums where you mentioned the Gangani, from what I remember they were in Clare.
It seems similar to how the Fir Domnann of the Fir Bolg are linked to the Dumnonni of Britain (Irish coastal groups who arrived from Briatain).
I hope to read his book in the future, it's always good to read dissenting voices but I've gotten cynical after reading stuff on the web (various topics) that seems to be dissenting for the sake of it.

According to O'Connor, Fir Bolg is cognate with Belgae in Roman records and with the older form Volcae in Greek records. He sees the Gangani and the Fir Domnann as branches of the Belgae or Fir Belg. He has the Belgae first tangle with the Romans in Belgica and flee to kinsmen in Britain, which agrees with Roman records. Then when the Romans invade Britain, O'Connor believes there was a further exodus of Belgae from Britain to Ireland. Excavations such as the grave of a Briganten noble on the Isle of Lambay offshore of Dublin are evidence of that. The Brigantes on the Island of Britain never accepted Roman rule. Briganten unrest ended the Roman campaign in north Wales in 47 AD. Venutius rebelled in 57 AD and ruled from 69 AD to his defeat in 73AD. The northern Brigantes rebelled again and again in 117 AD, 138 AD and 154-155 AD. Hadrian's Wall was as likely intended to cut them off from Pictish aid as it was to keep out the Picts, the usual reason given. Ptolomey's ca 150 AD map shows an Irish Briganten territory in Leinster. It is fairly obvious that this would be the escape route of choice for a Briganten rebel on the run.

The aboriginal Cruithne deserve some attention also. O'Connor sees them as the native population, continually pushed further north by later arrivals on both the Island of Britain and that of Ireland. Ulster and Caledonia were where they maintained their independence the longest. Other pockets retained their identity although surrounded by Belgae neighbours. O'Connor reminds us of the Seven Sogans of Tiaquin (north Galway). Writing of the sanctuary of the Briganten goddess Brigid at Caltraghbreedy, Co Galway, he says, "This sanctuary was in the lands of the Clann Cian, descendants of Tadg Mac Cian from Eli in Offaly who were Briganten and worshippers of the goddess Brigid. Before their decimation by the invasion of Maine Mor, the Clann Chian buffer state had expanded out to this frontier at the expense of the Cruithin of the 6 Sogain. "

"The Masonbrook/ Loughrea area was a major centre of the Dal gChruithine (Dal nDruithne), a Cruithin enclave related to the Sogain of E Galway and the Cruithin of NE Connacht and Ulster, descended from the Ulster hero, Celtchar mac Uitechair...The Dal ngChruithne revived their fortunes, defeating the Ui Maine E of Loughrea in 802 with the aid of their kinsmen, the Sogan of Tiaquin."

These septs are also mentioned in the Laud genealogies: "Clanda Conaill C[h]ernaig .i. Dal nAraide, Hi Echach Ulad, Conalle Murthemne, Laigse Lagen, na secht Sogain." And further on, " Cland Cathnia .i. Coenraige." The Coenraige or Caenraige were a small sept expelled from their homeland in Kenry, Co Limerick by Lughaid Meann's invasion of Thomond, and relocated further north as the Caenraige Ard Airdne (Kenry of Ardrahan, Co Galway). In historical times, their Chief was O'Maghna. O Gabhrain or O'Guaran was chief of Dal Druithne. O Mainnin or O'Mannin was chief of Sodhan (i.e. Soghan, Sogain, etc). The other chefs given by O'Dugan on the Six Sodhans were Mac-an-Bhaird or Mac Ward; O'Squarra or O'Scurry; O'Leannain or O'Lennan; O'Casain or O'Cashin; O'Gialla or O'Gaillain rendered O'Gealans and Gillays; and O'Maigins, O'Migins or O'Maginns. Just wanted to give the Cruithin septs a little of what politicians call "equal time".

alan
01-31-2014, 06:48 AM
I think one way of squaring the lack of Belgic type metalwork, pottery, burial traditions etc (and I remain to be convinced about the earthwork idea of O'Connor's) without denying the Fir Bolg-Belgae correlation (which I do kind of believe in) would be if the Belgae elements entered Ireland only shortly before Ptolemy's map and had a substantially Romanised material culture. I say that because although there is a lack of Belgic material in Ireland, there is a significant amount of Romano-British material, some of which would date to that sort of time. I actually think a number of element may have entered Ireland in the very early AD period just ahead of Ptolemy's map, including Brigantes from northern England. My suspicion about the Menepii (and I dont know anything about Mongan's book) is that they are related to the trading enclave based at the promontory fort Drumanagh on the east coast of Ireland where Roman type good have been found. I think its possible they were an enclave of traders, perhaps linked to the Menapij on the Rhine. However, its complex because there are similar forms to Menapii linked to the isle of Man, Anglesy etc and I do wonder if this relates to some sort of sea god like Manannan Mac Lir and his Welsh equivalent Manawyddan Fab Llyr. I think parallel tribal names can tell us something but at other times they simply show tribes sharing a favourite god from the Celtic pantheon. So, I think its an interesting possibility but uncertain of the Irish Menapii are linked to the continental one. If Drumanagh was sxcavated this might help answer the question but I cannot see that happening.


All true. So to summarise, the choice is one between the Milesian myth for which there is no real evidence or O'Rahilly and O'Connor for which there is some evidence? Hmmm, I know which I will discard and which I will explore further. I'll follow up further on the guys who have at least some evidence supporting them.

BTW, what did you think of Norman Mongan's Menapia Quest? The first history of a Belgic tribe known to have inhabited both Belgica and Ireland would appear to go straight to the issue you raised about lack of evidence for the Belgae in Ireland.

Rory Cain
02-01-2014, 01:31 AM
I think one way of squaring the lack of Belgic type metalwork, pottery, burial traditions etc (and I remain to be convinced about the earthwork idea of O'Connor's) without denying the Fir Bolg-Belgae correlation (which I do kind of believe in) would be if the Belgae elements entered Ireland only shortly before Ptolemy's map and had a substantially Romanised material culture. I say that because although there is a lack of Belgic material in Ireland, there is a significant amount of Romano-British material, some of which would date to that sort of time. I actually think a number of element may have entered Ireland in the very early AD period just ahead of Ptolemy's map, including Brigantes from northern England. My suspicion about the Menepii (and I dont know anything about Mongan's book) is that they are related to the trading enclave based at the promontory fort Drumanagh on the east coast of Ireland where Roman type good have been found. I think its possible they were an enclave of traders, perhaps linked to the Menapij on the Rhine. However, its complex because there are similar forms to Menapii linked to the isle of Man, Anglesy etc and I do wonder if this relates to some sort of sea god like Manannan Mac Lir and his Welsh equivalent Manawyddan Fab Llyr. I think parallel tribal names can tell us something but at other times they simply show tribes sharing a favourite god from the Celtic pantheon. So, I think its an interesting possibility but uncertain of the Irish Menapii are linked to the continental one. If Drumanagh was sxcavated this might help answer the question but I cannot see that happening.

If you read O'Connor then he makes at least the latter Belgae aka Fir Belg migrations as result of man incursion and therefore well and truly into Roman times. One writer with a linguistics background stated the Fir Beg branch who became the Eoganacht of Munster (and who had Manapi connections) to have been strongly influenced by Roman contact before their arrival in Ireland. So that aspect of O'Connor would be in agreement with your thinking.

Your thinking that the Brigantes, or at least later waves of them, were also from Roman Britain also concurs with O'Connor. According to their pedigree, the Irish Brigantes believed themselves to be related to the Manapi although the point at which the genealogy connects them is certainly much too late as they already had a separate identity at the time of Ptolomey's map. Regarding the Manapi, O'Connor wrote, "Following Caesar's genocide of the Celtic Veneti sea-traders of Western Europe, Manapian mariners took over the lucrative sea trade. The Irish Sea was named Muir Meann (Manapian Sea) after them." O'Connor relates how Manapi seafarers established trading posts and colonies in diverse places: Leinster, where Ptolomey's map placed them before they spread up the east coast; Fermanagh and Monaghan where the Connacht dynasty granted them sword land won from the Cruithne of Ulster; the Isle of Man; Manau Goddodin in Scotland. "They gave Munster its original name, Mon/ Man/ Momhan/ Mumhan, the Manapian province."

Manannan Mac Lir was the Manapi sea god. The Manapi transported his name with them wherever they went. What you are viewing as unrelated tribes coincidentally named after the same god are equally feasible as the dispersed settlements of a dispossessed people. What happened to the Manapi under the Romans also happened to the Irish nation as a whole under the English: to the Jews and the Armenians under the muslims; and to the Poles under the Russians and Germans. The Manapi diaspora is but a forerunner of numerous other later diaspora, with the difference that the Manapi possibly possessed a superior material culture to the original inhabitants of their colonies and became, at least locally, the ruling dynasty.

rossa
02-01-2014, 10:44 AM
Did the goddess Brigid come with the Brigantes?

Rory Cain
02-01-2014, 11:08 PM
Did the goddess Brigid come with the Brigantes?

From my reading, I think the answer is "Yes". The Brigantes were amongst the first of the Fir Belg to arrive in Ireland. They pushed the Cruithne north to occupy their lands, with the exception of the Loiges who stayed put in Leinster. The Cruithne take their name from their god, originating from a word meaning to shape or create. So the god of the Cruithne was the Creator, a familiar concept even today. Brigid was a not Cruithne goddess. She was a Briganten goddess. All to the best of my knowledge of course, as there are others more knowledgable about both Cruithne and Fir Belg gods than I. But if I understand it correctly then yes, the Brigantes introduced the cult of Brigid.

Rory Cain
02-18-2014, 10:07 PM
On the other hand the Milesian type model has no basis in native Irish tradition at all and is basically a classical fabrication. Terms like Gael, Scot, Miles Espain, Parthalon etc seem to have come from British, Classical and Biblical sources and probably have no native origin.

All except those who continue to source their irish "history" from the pulp mill press agree on that. More recently we have DNA to peel away another layer of the phoney onion. Perhaps the locations and movements of the tribes that O'Connor traces should be compared to the DNA record. Where M222+ is found in Connaught and west Ulster, O'Connor traces the expanding Gangani kingdom; where Connaught vassal states are founded on lands conquered from Ulster and awarded as sword land to mercenaries, we find Z253 and DF21; where the Ui Bairrche were pushed north by the later Laigin, we also find DF21; and in the Laigin territory in SE Leinster we find Z255.

Are we getting to where we can identify the descendants of the tribes named on Ptolomey's map? For a long time this task was dumped in the "too hard" basket. Norman Mongan believes he has retrieved the Manapi from the obscurity of neglect. The "sons of Mil" was a myth that implied Irish homogeneity. The truth is more genetically diverse. Science, through DNA testing, knows that. Is it time that "history", such as it is in Ireland, made an attempt to catch up. If we are not the so=called sons of Mil, then who are we?

"What's your name lad?" asked the Irishman. The young man replied, "Nathan". "Aw, come on, lad, it must be somethin!' said the Irishman.

Rory Cain
03-26-2014, 01:41 AM
If O'Connor's Hand ofHistory is right, relations between Connaught and Munster were rather different than pseudo-history has portrayed them. There was considerable interaction and movement, more consistent with the spread of DNA types we are seeing. O'Connor describes the life and times of Corc:

"Luigthech, greatgrandson of Eoghan Mor ofMunster, wed Bolga of the British Menapi (Bolga Manand bann Bretnach) by whom he had a son, Conall orc. Crimthann Mac Fidaig, King of Munster, adopted his cousin, the young Corc (Gorgin). When Corc scorned the overtures of Crimthann's consort. she accused him pblicly of seducing her...Crimthann tried to have him slain by sendinghim to subjugate the Ossraige and levy taxes upon them. Corc fled to the Turoe/ Knocknadala oppidum in Galway to Mongfhind, Crimthann's sister, Queen and consort of Eochaid Muigh Mhaen, Fir Bolg Overking (Ri Temhro) residing in Maen Magh (hence his epithet Moyvane) in Galway..." O'Connor then places Corc's palace at Ailech Gorgin (Rath Gorgin) besside Moyode between Turoe/ Knocknadala and Rath Cruatha of Athenry.

"When Crimthann succeeded Eochaid as Overking of Fir Belg tribes of Munster and Connacht at Turoe, Corc fled to Scotland...Corc wed the daughter of Feradach, King of Cruthintuatha of Pictland...The Eoganacht of Mag Gorginn in Scotland between the Tay and Dee rivers descended from Corc. Oengus Mac Forggusso (+761), the most powerful Pictish king known to history, descended from this offshoot of Corc. The Kings of Lennox and the Stewarts of Scotland, from whom descended the British Royal House of Stuarts, claimed descent from another son of Corc, Maine Lemna. On Crimthann's death, Corc returned to Ieland..."

"Fierce rivalry broke out for the lingship of Munster following the assassination of Crimthann Ma Fidaig, Overking of the Fir Belg tribes. In the chaos, the Ossraige and Briganten descendants of Brasal Barrech crossed their W boundary...burst through the Glens of Aherlow and other passes to the W foothills of these mountain ranges...[and] erected a new defence line from Cappoquin to Fermoy along the Blackwater and thence N via Pallas Green on Bealch Febrat in Limerick N to the Shannon. [Corc and his followers from Scotland] arrived in the nick of time to save Munster from being overrun by the UiBairrche and Ossraige."

"A later version states that she Corc came to Magh Fehmen in which Cashel stads tall 'the kingship of Ireland closed around him'. These fables are transparently false. Had Corc come to Cashel without a might army he would have been eaten alive by the war dogs of Eile. It is implicit in the 8th century version that Cashel, until its conquest by Corc's 'sons", lay in the territory of Conall Mac Nenta Con, king of Eili Deiscirt. Thurles, Durlas Eili, N of Cashel, proclaims its earlier origin...As Daibhi O Croinin noted "Traces of an older political situation can be found in the crudely stitched fabric of Eoganachta origin legends, and in the personnel of important churches" such as Emly (Imblech Ibair, 'medon Mairtine' of the early Mairtine."

"The Maigue district held the Otherworld abode, sanctuary and sacred yew tree of the god of Music, Fer I, which belonged to the Ui Bairrche before being taken by the Eoganacht." Ui Bairrche druids appear to have remained there untilthe time of Trad Mac Taoiseach, son of a chief and druid of Bruree, received the territory of Tradraige (Tradree, Co Clare) from his father-in-law Lughaidh Delbaeth, son of Cormac Cas, a branch of the Munster dynasty who ruled from Bruree while Cashel was still in the hands of Munster's rivals.

Rory Cain
05-18-2014, 11:46 PM
I think one way of squaring the lack of Belgic type metalwork, pottery, burial traditions etc (and I remain to be convinced about the earthwork idea of O'Connor's) without denying the Fir Bolg-Belgae correlation (which I do kind of believe in) would be if the Belgae elements entered Ireland only shortly before Ptolemy's map and had a substantially Romanised material culture. I say that because although there is a lack of Belgic material in Ireland, there is a significant amount of Romano-British material, some of which would date to that sort of time. I actually think a number of element may have entered Ireland in the very early AD period just ahead of Ptolemy's map, including Brigantes from northern England. My suspicion about the Menepii (and I dont know anything about Mongan's book) is that they are related to the trading enclave based at the promontory fort Drumanagh on the east coast of Ireland where Roman type good have been found. I think its possible they were an enclave of traders, perhaps linked to the Menapij on the Rhine. However, its complex because there are similar forms to Menapii linked to the isle of Man, Anglesy etc and I do wonder if this relates to some sort of sea god like Manannan Mac Lir and his Welsh equivalent Manawyddan Fab Llyr. I think parallel tribal names can tell us something but at other times they simply show tribes sharing a favourite god from the Celtic pantheon. So, I think its an interesting possibility but uncertain of the Irish Menapii are linked to the continental one. If Drumanagh was sxcavated this might help answer the question but I cannot see that happening.

Alan, I'm trying to reconcile your answer above with your later posts on a different thread proposing a historical model for the settlement of Ireland based on:
Erainn, as the aboriginal population
Cruithin, as a later but numerically small wave
Laigin, who your later posts indicate you see as same as the Belgae so Iguess you dosee a Belgae element after all. (BTW, Manannan Mac Lir was the god of the Manapi despite the sons of Mil myth making him "Milesian").

Going back to this earlier post of yours though, combined with say Hubert as quoted below, I wonder if it should be:
Erainn
Cruithin
Gauls or Gallo-British
Belgae

Hubert in "The Rise of the Celts" states, "... we have to suppose that between the settlement of the Picts {Cruithin in your model] ... and the first incursions of the Belgae, a mass, even a considerable mass, of Celtic invaders arrived, for whom, though we cannot give them any partcular name, we shall reserve that of Britons. [Beats me why he didn't call them what thery were, Gauls!] Caesar, who only knew them from the other side of the line of battle, may have thought that they were the same as the Picts. But they were conscious of their difference and they made others see it."

"The British emigrants [Gauls] arrived with the prestige of a superior craftsmanship and a better armed civilisation." [The Gauls were also agriculturalists, a step above the pastoral Cruithin in the model of civilization used by anthropologists.] "So after the coming of the Goidels [I believe Hubert was conned and should have said Erainn], there were three celtic colonizations of Britain, by the Picts [Cruithin], by the Britons [Gauls}, and by the Belgae {Fir Belg in Ireland], following each other at fairly long intervals."

"When Caesar says that the peoples of the interior of Britain ... were pastoral folk, living on meat and milk and clothing themselves in the skins of their cattle, he is probably speaking of the Picts... A new body of colonists arrived at the beginning of the first period of La gene. These were the Britons, and their settlement must have been completed about 300 B.C., when Pytheas made his voyage... The British [Gauls] were agriculturalists."

"The first Britons seem to have arrved at the very beginning of the La tene period, perhaps evena little earlier, between 550 and 500... The presence of the Parisi, Brigantes and Cassi among the Britons shows that they were related to the Celtic peoples of the Cntinent... But the best reason for thinking that the Galians were not Belgae is that they distinguish themselves from their successors, the Fir Belg...At a much later date new Celtic invaders landed in the British isles. these were the Belgae."

Fr Tom O'Connor equates the Fir Galioin, which we might translate as "Men of Gaul", with the Continental Brigantes.