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hartaisarlag
09-27-2019, 06:12 PM
So as part of my work with my subclade project, we've found a guy who was born to parents from the Sicilian community in Tunis (something I didn't know about; the only Italians I was familiar with in this context were "Gornim"—Sephardim from Livorno).

It turns out, however, that his father was adopted, and despite family knowledge that his father's biological mother was a Sicilian girl, nobody knew anything about his father's biological father's identity. What is notable, however, is that his Y chromosome is a fairly close 67-marker match to a good number of Ashkenazim in our subclade, and a more distant match to the handful of identified Sephardim/North African Jews in it.

He's sent me his (pre-Beta) 23andMe results, and they seem to rule out any recent Ashkenazi ancestry. On my cursory read, it looks like we're plausibly dealing with an individual who is 3/4 Sicilian and 1/4 Tunisian Jewish. That said, the overall proximity of Sicilians to Western Jews, and their propensity to score Western Asian, complicates this analysis. There's also the possibility that he is 7/8 Sicilian and 1/8 Western (non-Ashkenazi) Jewish. In my book, the Tunisian Jewish connection is suggested by his specific location matches to Tunis and Tripoli, accompanied by the fact that his Western Asian significantly dwarfs his North African and Arabian. It is also worth noting that we have confirmed the presence of Algerian, Tunisian, and Libyan Jews in our subclade.

Since lots of conversations connected to these groups and their 23andMe results have come up, I'd appreciate any input I can get. Does my thesis check out? Also, let me know if this would be better to post in the 23andMe subforum.

33436

hartaisarlag
09-28-2019, 03:15 PM
Anyone? Results are attached.

coffeeprince
09-28-2019, 04:44 PM
I think your theory makes sense, especially because there are locations listed. It's insane how his Western Asian dwarfs his North African. Since, that result is pre-beta, my guess is the NA will actually increase ~6% or so percent once the Beta results are activated.

Sikeliot
09-28-2019, 05:10 PM
Looks like a regular Sicilian! Probably west Sicily. Which town and province do they descend from?

I don't see any reason to believe they're part North African Jewish. Their North African is too low for that IMO, and they score no more Ashkenazi than many of my Palermitan cousins. I've seen other Sicilians especially from Trapani area with Tunisia as an an ancestor location, which makes sense since the North African input in Sicily comes from Tunisia, Libya, and Egypt mostly.

The Beta results will be more helpful to determine this, but my inclination is nothing looks strange for Sicily here.

hartaisarlag
09-28-2019, 05:20 PM
Looks like a regular Sicilian! Probably west Sicily. Which town and province do they descend from?

I don't see any reason to believe they're part North African Jewish. Their North African is too low for that IMO, and they score no more Ashkenazi than many of my Palermitan cousins. I've seen other Sicilians especially from Trapani area with Tunisia as an an ancestor location, which makes sense since the North African input in Sicily comes from Tunisia, Libya, and Egypt mostly.

The Beta results will be more helpful to determine this, but my inclination is nothing looks strange for Sicily here.

The known half is from Messina. The other known Sicilian 1/4 is from an unknown location.

His Y-subclade (predicted, admittedly) is very Jewish, and he has moderately close matches, all Jewish (mostly Ashkenazi). We believe we might have a West Sicilian member in our clade, but this is far from being confirmed.

Sikeliot
09-28-2019, 07:14 PM
The known half is from Messina. The other known Sicilian 1/4 is from an unknown location.

His Y-subclade (predicted, admittedly) is very Jewish, and he has moderately close matches, all Jewish (mostly Ashkenazi). We believe we might have a West Sicilian member in our clade, but this is far from being confirmed.

I thought most Sicilian Tunisians descended from Trapani. Interesting to know it is from Messina.

Is their final 1/4 confirmed to be non-Sicilian or is this just speculative?

hartaisarlag
09-28-2019, 07:28 PM
I thought most Sicilian Tunisians descended from Trapani. Interesting to know it is from Messina.

Is their final 1/4 confirmed to be non-Sicilian or is this just speculative?

Speculative. But he has Ashkenazi Y matches as close as 65/67, and a Sephardi one as close as 57/67. Can’t find any non-Jews on the list.

Sikeliot
09-28-2019, 07:33 PM
Speculative. But he has Ashkenazi Y matches as close as 65/67, and a Sephardi one as close as 57/67. Can’t find any non-Jews on the list.

The things making me think he might be 1/4 Jewish now are:

1. North African with a specific ancestor location for someone from Messina seem strange to me, Messina is not one of the places in Sicily with recent connections to North Africa,
2. The y-dna, although this could be coincidental since some Sicilians do have y-dna of Near Eastern origin that may otherwise be shared with Jews.

Sikeliot
09-28-2019, 07:39 PM
Speculative. But he has Ashkenazi Y matches as close as 65/67, and a Sephardi one as close as 57/67. Can’t find any non-Jews on the list.

This also leads me to wonder...

A lot of Sicilian-Tunisians left Tunisia and came to western Sicily, mostly Trapani and Agrigento. Could higher MENA in western Sicily, in SOME cases be from ancestry they brought from Tunisia?

hartaisarlag
09-28-2019, 07:42 PM
The things making me think he might be 1/4 Jewish now are:

1. North African with a specific ancestor location for someone from Messina seem strange to me, Messina is not one of the places in Sicily with recent connections to North Africa,
2. The y-dna, although this could be coincidental since some Sicilians do have y-dna of Near Eastern origin that may otherwise be shared with Jews.

I’ve asked him to share his raw data and observations about his DNA Relatives list, and will report back. I think the latter will be the most informative thing.

He’s also going to test for the diagnostic Sephardic/North African Jewish branch of E-Y6923 on YSEQ.

hartaisarlag
09-28-2019, 07:48 PM
This also leads me to wonder...

A lot of Sicilian-Tunisians left Tunisia and came to western Sicily, mostly Trapani and Agrigento. Could higher MENA in western Sicily, in SOME cases be from ancestry they brought from Tunisia?

There is a Sicilian-American from Sciacca who has a documented non-Jewish pedigree going back to ca. 1500, who is a 35/37 Y match to a Libyan Jew in our clade. Food for thought. Sadly he hasn’t gotten back to me.

Sikeliot
09-28-2019, 07:55 PM
There is a Sicilian-American from Sciacca who has a documented non-Jewish pedigree going back to ca. 1500, who is a 35/37 Y match to a Libyan Jew in our clade. Food for thought. Sadly he hasn’t gotten back to me.

Sciacca was settled during the Arab conquest, has a name of Arabic origin, and also has connections to Malta so that could be part of it. Do you have this person's results to share, autosomal or GEDMatch?

hartaisarlag
09-28-2019, 08:04 PM
Sciacca was settled during the Arab conquest, has a name of Arabic origin, and also has connections to Malta so that could be part of it. Do you have this person's results to share, autosomal or GEDMatch?

I wish. No, I don’t. Happy to share the surname via PM if that’s of interest to you.

Sikeliot
09-29-2019, 02:20 PM
I reconsidered my stance. This person likely is 1/4 Jewish. Either that, or they are fully "Sicilian-Tunisian" but with a Tunisian ancestor assimilated early on in the 1600s or something. Sicilians have been in Tunisia for hundreds of years.

Compare to a Sicilian from Sciacca in Agrigento I just found... 0.2% Ashkenazi shows up, but the North African in Sicilians is overwhelmingly coming up as EGYPTIAN not as Tunisian. So the specific match to Tunisia, has to be more recent than Moorish times, as it seems most of the "Moorish" in Sicilians is Egyptian, not Tunisian.


https://i.imgur.com/dqdQK4h.png

Agamemnon
09-30-2019, 10:46 AM
I think your theory is sound, though not necessarily 1/4 Jewish the 65/67 STR matches don't leave much room for a non-Jewish origin along the paternal line. I don't think we'll be able to tell much just by looking at the AC, only segments shared with Jews would allow us to draw conclusions.

hartaisarlag
09-30-2019, 05:20 PM
I think your theory is sound, though not necessarily 1/4 Jewish the 65/67 STR matches don't leave much room for a non-Jewish origin along the paternal line. I don't think we'll be able to tell much just by looking at the AC, only segments shared with Jews would allow us to draw conclusions.

I've asked him to tell me about his match list, but it can take a few tries to get novices to give you the information you want. I disclaimed at the beginning that picking Sephardic ancestry out of Sicilians is one of the tasks 23andMe's AC is least suited for.

Paradox is that based on STR matches, his Y-DNA sure looks Ashkenazi—but Ashkenazi ancestry within the last 200 years looks highly unlikely based on the AC analysis.

hartaisarlag
10-13-2019, 05:20 PM
He now says he has Ashkenazi and Sephardi 2nd-3rd cousins on 23andMe, which seems "damning"—but I want to hear more details about those names and their ancestral locations.

For now, I have access to his kit on GEDmatch (still hasn't completed upload for the One-to-Many tool). Here are his Eurogenes K13 results:

1 East_Med 29.96
2 West_Med 21.71
3 North_Atlantic 18.37
4 West_Asian 12.17
5 Red_Sea 7.93
6 Baltic 6.52
7 Sub-Saharan 1.43
8 Northeast_African 0.84
9 East_Asian 0.72
10 Oceanian 0.37

1 86.1% West_Sicilian + 13.9% Bedouin @ 1.69
2 90.2% West_Sicilian + 9.8% Saudi @ 1.88
3 84.2% West_Sicilian + 15.8% Syrian @ 1.95

Any of this look atypical for a West Sicilian from near Agrigento?

Sikeliot
10-13-2019, 05:23 PM
He now says he has Ashkenazi and Sephardi 2nd-3rd cousins on 23andMe, which seems "damning"—but I want to hear more details about those names and their ancestral locations.

For now, I have access to his kit on GEDmatch (still hasn't completed upload for the One-to-Many tool). Here are his Eurogenes K13 results:

1 East_Med 29.96
2 West_Med 21.71
3 North_Atlantic 18.37
4 West_Asian 12.17
5 Red_Sea 7.93
6 Baltic 6.52
7 Sub-Saharan 1.43
8 Northeast_African 0.84
9 East_Asian 0.72
10 Oceanian 0.37

1 86.1% West_Sicilian + 13.9% Bedouin @ 1.69
2 90.2% West_Sicilian + 9.8% Saudi @ 1.88
3 84.2% West_Sicilian + 15.8% Syrian @ 1.95

Any of this look atypical for a West Sicilian from near Agrigento?


No, could easily be Sicilian from various places. Can I see their GEDmatch ID?

hartaisarlag
10-13-2019, 05:27 PM
No, could easily be Sicilian from various places. Can I see their GEDmatch ID?

PM'ed. Alas, this is the trouble with trying to sort out Western Jewish ancestry (doubly hard if non-Ashkenazi) from Southern Italian using component-based PCA methods. Will report back once I have access to his matches.

Sikeliot
10-13-2019, 05:36 PM
PM'ed. Alas, this is the trouble with trying to sort out Western Jewish ancestry (doubly hard if non-Ashkenazi) from Southern Italian using component-based PCA methods. Will report back once I have access to his matches.

I don't think he is part Ashkenazi given his results not resembling that of Ashkenazim. Also, he is fairly typical for someone from west-central Sicily. Where again is his Sicilian side from?

hartaisarlag
10-13-2019, 05:40 PM
I don't think he is part Ashkenazi given his results not resembling that of Ashkenazim. Also, he is fairly typical for someone from west-central Sicily. Where again is his Sicilian side from?

1/2 from Messina, 1/4 Sicilian but unknown, 1/4 totally unknown.

Sikeliot
10-13-2019, 05:45 PM
1/2 from Sciacca, 1/4 Sicilian but unknown, 1/4 totally unknown.

I thought Messina was part of it?

hartaisarlag
10-13-2019, 05:49 PM
I don't think he is part Ashkenazi given his results not resembling that of Ashkenazim. Also, he is fairly typical for someone from west-central Sicily. Where again is his Sicilian side from?


I thought Messina was part of it?

I messed up here! Sciacca is the location of another Sicilian who I’m investigating (in that case, it’s only a Deep Y investigation).

1/2 Messina, 1/4 unknown Sicilian, 1/4 unknown-unknown. I’ve been interpreting these results wrong, comparing them to a West Sicilian, rather than East Sicilian baseline.

Sikeliot
10-13-2019, 05:57 PM
I messed up here! Sciacca is the location of another Sicilian who I’m investigating (in that case, it’s only a Deep Y investigation).

1/2 Messina, 1/4 unknown Sicilian, 1/4 unknown-unknown. I’ve been interpreting these results wrong, comparing them to a West Sicilian, rather than East Sicilian baseline.

"West Sicily" is a Trapani sample, Trapani is outlying for Sicily. East Sicily should be used as the Sicilian baseline for SE Sicily, while South Italy should be the baseline for the rest.

Sikeliot
10-13-2019, 06:36 PM
I messed up here! Sciacca is the location of another Sicilian who I’m investigating (in that case, it’s only a Deep Y investigation).

1/2 Messina, 1/4 unknown Sicilian, 1/4 unknown-unknown. I’ve been interpreting these results wrong, comparing them to a West Sicilian, rather than East Sicilian baseline.

If you want to see what people from Sciacca look like genetically here are two results on Eurogenes K15. For two different people. Both shift in different directions around the "South Italian" mean. West Sicily is NOT a good proxy for them.

#1:

# Population Percent
1 East_Med 29.34
2 West_Med 20.15
3 West_Asian 14.9
4 North_Sea 13.24
5 Atlantic 11.27
6 Red_Sea 4.1
7 Eastern_Euro 2.77
8 Baltic 2.06
9 Northeast_African 1.75
10 Amerindian 0.32
11 Oceanian 0.11

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 South_Italian 6.41
2 East_Sicilian 6.62
3 Central_Greek 6.84
4 Italian_Jewish 7.99
5 Italian_Abruzzo 8.2
6 West_Sicilian 8.74
7 Ashkenazi 8.76
8 Algerian_Jewish 10.24
9 Sephardic_Jewish 10.51
10 Greek_Thessaly 11.2
11 Tuscan 12.05
12 Greek 12.31
13 Libyan_Jewish 13.41
14 Tunisian_Jewish 13.9
15 Cyprian 15.38
16 North_Italian 17.98
17 Lebanese_Muslim 18.98
18 Bulgarian 19.29
19 Syrian 19.86
20 Turkish 20.02

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 63.2% Cyprian + 36.8% Spanish_Galicia @ 5.58
2 62.7% Cyprian + 37.3% Portuguese @ 5.77
3 60.2% Central_Greek + 39.8% Italian_Jewish @ 5.8
4 77% Central_Greek + 23% Libyan_Jewish @ 5.81
5 67.8% Italian_Abruzzo + 32.2% Libyan_Jewish @ 5.86
6 63.8% Italian_Jewish + 36.2% Greek_Thessaly @ 5.89
7 93.1% South_Italian + 6.9% West_German @ 5.98
8 94.9% South_Italian + 5.1% West_Norwegian @ 6.01
9 54.5% Cyprian + 45.5% North_Italian @ 6.06
10 95.1% South_Italian + 4.9% Norwegian @ 6.06
11 66.5% Cyprian + 33.5% French @ 6.08
12 95.2% South_Italian + 4.8% Orcadian @ 6.08
13 51.5% Italian_Jewish + 48.5% Italian_Abruzzo @ 6.1
14 92.8% South_Italian + 7.2% Spanish_Galicia @ 6.11
15 93.7% South_Italian + 6.3% French @ 6.13
16 95.1% South_Italian + 4.9% Southwest_English @ 6.13
17 95.6% South_Italian + 4.4% Swedish @ 6.13
18 67.2% East_Sicilian + 32.8% Italian_Jewish @ 6.13
19 57.6% Tuscan + 42.4% Cyprian @ 6.14
20 95.8% South_Italian + 4.2% North_Swedish @ 6.15



#2:

# Population Percent
1 East_Med 31.16
2 West_Med 16.54
3 West_Asian 14.04
4 Atlantic 11.77
5 North_Sea 9.71
6 Red_Sea 6.68
7 Eastern_Euro 3.75
8 Baltic 3.08
9 Northeast_African 1.75
10 Sub-Saharan 1.49
11 Oceanian 0.03

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Italian_Jewish 4.92
2 South_Italian 5.17
3 East_Sicilian 5.21
4 Ashkenazi 6.01
5 Sephardic_Jewish 6.18
6 Central_Greek 6.23
7 Algerian_Jewish 6.62
8 West_Sicilian 7.76
9 Italian_Abruzzo 8.04
10 Tunisian_Jewish 9.7
11 Libyan_Jewish 10.62
12 Greek 11.79
13 Greek_Thessaly 12
14 Cyprian 12.16
15 Tuscan 13.45
16 Lebanese_Muslim 15.21
17 Syrian 15.88
18 Turkish 17.96
19 Samaritan 18.09
20 Jordanian 18.23

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 57.6% Italian_Abruzzo + 42.4% Libyan_Jewish @ 2.77
2 69.6% Cyprian + 30.4% Spanish_Galicia @ 2.82
3 65% Central_Greek + 35% Libyan_Jewish @ 2.93
4 90.3% Italian_Jewish + 9.7% Tabassaran @ 2.94
5 69.1% Cyprian + 30.9% Portuguese @ 2.97
6 72% Cyprian + 28% French @ 2.97
7 57.5% Italian_Jewish + 42.5% Ashkenazi @ 3.11
8 90.4% Italian_Jewish + 9.6% Lezgin @ 3.13
9 58.8% Italian_Jewish + 41.2% Central_Greek @ 3.16
10 57.7% Lebanese_Christian + 42.3% Portuguese @ 3.25
11 50.4% Lebanese_Christian + 49.6% North_Italian @ 3.26
12 86.5% Algerian_Jewish + 13.5% Tabassaran @ 3.31
13 52.5% Italian_Jewish + 47.5% East_Sicilian @ 3.33
14 59.7% Tuscan + 40.3% Lebanese_Christian @ 3.33
15 91.4% Italian_Jewish + 8.6% Chechen @ 3.34
16 76.7% Cyprian + 23.3% Southwest_English @ 3.38
17 52.1% Central_Greek + 47.9% Algerian_Jewish @ 3.38
18 83.8% East_Sicilian + 16.2% Lebanese_Druze @ 3.41
19 69% Cyprian + 31% Spanish_Extremadura @ 3.43
20 72% East_Sicilian + 28% Libyan_Jewish @ 3.44

hartaisarlag
10-13-2019, 06:49 PM
If you want to see what people from Sciacca look like genetically here are two results on Eurogenes K15. For two different people. Both shift in different directions around the "South Italian" mean. West Sicily is NOT a good proxy for them.

#1:



#2:

In the case of the person with roots in Sciacca, the latest non-Sicilian ancestry I’m interested would be ca. 1500, and very possibly much earlier, so unfortunately I doubt I’ll be able to furnish a meaningful comparison. Nevertheless, this is interesting. Do you know anything about Jews on that part of the island?

Sikeliot
10-13-2019, 06:54 PM
In the case of the person with roots in Sciacca, the latest non-Sicilian ancestry I’m interested would be ca. 1500, and very possibly much earlier, so unfortunately I doubt I’ll be able to furnish a meaningful comparison. Nevertheless, this is interesting. Do you know anything about Jews on that part of the island?

I do not ,but you might want to ask "Principe" who posts here, his family is from near there and they have some degree of Jewish ancestry.

Principe
10-13-2019, 08:01 PM
In the case of the person with roots in Sciacca, the latest non-Sicilian ancestry I’m interested would be ca. 1500, and very possibly much earlier, so unfortunately I doubt I’ll be able to furnish a meaningful comparison. Nevertheless, this is interesting. Do you know anything about Jews on that part of the island?

Sciacca had one of the largest Jewish communities in Sicily, I have Crypto Jewish ancestors from there, my maternal grandfather’s mother side, they knew about their Jewish heritage, the surname is able to be traced to a Jewish family of three brothers right before the inquisition. This side of the family also has marriage between cousins and other families who surnames would also be traced to the Jewish community of Sciacca, what happened is between 1600-1700 many new villages were created (such as my maternal village Cattolica Eraclea), and people from surrounding towns moved in, Sciacca being one the larger contributors. All my matches from my mom’s village score some Jewish.

hartaisarlag
10-13-2019, 08:08 PM
Sciacca had one of the largest Jewish communities in Sicily, I have Crypto Jewish ancestors from there, my maternal grandfather’s mother side, they knew about their Jewish heritage, the surname is able to be traced to a Jewish family of three brothers right before the inquisition. This side of the family also has marriage between cousins and other families who surnames would also be traced to the Jewish community of Sciacca, what happened is between 1600-1700 many new villages were created (such as my maternal village Cattolica Eraclea), and people from surrounding towns moved in, Sciacca being one the larger contributors. All my matches from my mom’s village score some Jewish.

Messaged you about this - super-helpful.

But to be clear, this thread is about someone with East Sicilian and possible recent Tunisian Jewish roots - the Sciacca guy with a likely Jewish Y is another story.

Principe
10-13-2019, 08:18 PM
Messaged you about this - super-helpful.

But to be clear, this thread is about someone with East Sicilian and possible recent Tunisian Jewish roots - the Sciacca guy with a likely Jewish Y is another story.

Responded to your message!

hartaisarlag
10-14-2019, 01:16 PM
I think your theory is sound, though not necessarily 1/4 Jewish the 65/67 STR matches don't leave much room for a non-Jewish origin along the paternal line. I don't think we'll be able to tell much just by looking at the AC, only segments shared with Jews would allow us to draw conclusions.

Well, the segments just about settle it. Top 4 matches on GEDmatch - and 7 of the top 10 - are Tunisian Jews or part-Tunisian Jews.

Now the mystery as far as I’m concerned (much as I’d love to help this guy find his grandfather’s family...) is how a Tunisian Jew could match an Ashkenazi at 65/67 (and several others at 62-63/67). It would be interesting if he fell into our clade’s main Ashkenazi branch, but much less strange if he turned out to fall on the non-Ashkenazi branch, which includes Libyan, Tunisian, and Algerian Jews.

Sikeliot
10-14-2019, 03:40 PM
Well, the segments just about settle it. Top 4 matches on GEDmatch - and 7 of the top 10 - are Tunisian Jews or part-Tunisian Jews.

Now the mystery as far as I’m concerned (much as I’d love to help this guy find his grandfather’s family...) is how a Tunisian Jew could match an Ashkenazi at 65/67 (and several others at 62-63/67). It would be interesting if he fell into our clade’s main Ashkenazi branch, but much less strange if he turned out to fall on the non-Ashkenazi branch, which includes Libyan, Tunisian, and Algerian Jews.

The difficulty is that in their results it is hard to isolate the Jewish element, except for by IBD. Tunisian Jews and Sicilians are probably genetically close and hard to separate especially regions of the island with higher combined MENA.

hartaisarlag
10-14-2019, 03:42 PM
The difficulty is that in their results it is hard to isolate the Jewish element, except for by IBD. Tunisian Jews and Sicilians are probably genetically close and hard to separate especially regions of the island with higher combined MENA.

Yes, but we're past that. Most of his top matches are obvious Tunisian Jews, based on their names and genealogies. And full Tunisian Jews are quite a bit farther from Sicilian Jews than Ashkenazim or Euro-Sephardim are, anyway.

Sikeliot
10-14-2019, 03:43 PM
Yes, but we're past that. Most of his top matches are obvious Tunisian Jews, based on their names and genealogies. And full Tunisian Jews are quite a bit farther from Sicilian Jews than Ashkenazim or Euro-Sephardim are, anyway.

Then he is probably 1/4 or 1/8 Tunisian Jewish. It makes sense given the ancestor locations.

What is interesting is on GEDmatch for some Sicilians on Eurogenes, they get Algerian Jewish on their list before Ashkenazi. Even though, we know, on a PCA plot Ashkenazim would be closer. That was the basis of my comment that when I see their 23andme result, the only thing making them not "look" full Sicilian are the North African ancestor locations.

hartaisarlag
10-14-2019, 03:50 PM
Got it. Tunisian Jews are farther east (and south) on the continuum though, practically off it. Some Ashkenazim have been known to score Moroccan or Algerian Jewish first on various calculators, but never Tunisian Jewish.

Sikeliot
10-14-2019, 04:04 PM
Got it. Tunisian Jews are farther east (and south) on the continuum though, practically off it. Some Ashkenazim have been known to score Moroccan or Algerian Jewish first on various calculators, but never Tunisian Jewish.

Ah ok. I was falsely assuming Tunisian Jews were more or less the same as Algerian/Moroccan Jews.

hartaisarlag
10-14-2019, 04:07 PM
Ah ok. I was falsely assuming Tunisian Jews were more or less the same as Algerian/Moroccan Jews.

Similar enough that 1/4 is hard to clearly detect in someone who’s 3/4 Sicilian (again, as you said, even on 23andMe, but for ancestor locations), but I would assume zero overlap between full Tunisian Jews and Sicilians.

StillWater
10-14-2019, 04:12 PM
Got it. Tunisian Jews are farther east (and south) on the continuum though, practically off it. Some Ashkenazim have been known to score Moroccan or Algerian Jewish first on various calculators, but never Tunisian Jewish.

I don't think I've ever gotten Tunisian Jewish first, but I have gotten Moroccan Jewish first. I'll have to double check. Maybe my dad would get Tunisian first, given that both my sister and I plot sufficiently south of our mom. All the phased kits I got for my dad (using mine and my sister's) plotted like a north shifted Lebanese Druze.

Sikeliot
10-14-2019, 04:18 PM
Similar enough that 1/4 is hard to clearly detect in someone who’s 3/4 Sicilian (again, as you said, even on 23andMe, but for ancestor locations), but I would assume zero overlap between full Tunisian Jews and Sicilians.

Yes, this is true.

hartaisarlag
10-14-2019, 04:31 PM
I don't think I've ever gotten Tunisian Jewish first, but I have gotten Moroccan Jewish first. I'll have to double check. Maybe my dad would get Tunisian first, given that both my sister and I plot sufficiently south of our mom. All the phased kits I got for my dad (using mine and my sister's) plotted like a north shifted Lebanese Druze.

Not sure I trust phased for these things. Phasing puts my father’s projected East Med below 30, and his West Asian near 20.

StillWater
10-14-2019, 04:38 PM
Not sure I trust phased for these things. Phasing puts my father’s projected East Med below 30, and his West Asian near 20.

I agree with you on the broad scale. However, I didn't even need to phase my dad to deduce where his phased kit would plot. I've noticed phased plotting is more reasonable than the actual scores. However, I have found Soviet Ashkenazim with East Med below 30 and "compensating" West Asian (above 15). The key point is that I have 2 sample points to go off - mine and my sister's.