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View Full Version : Are Bosnians significantly more 'Slavic' than Serbs genetically?



Sikeliot
09-28-2019, 03:01 AM
I ran various Balkan Slavic groups on Vahaduo to see if they're closer to East Med peoples or Poles/Ukrainians.

Bulgarians were closer to mainland Greeks, East Sicilians, and Cretans than to either Ukrainians or Poles. Serbs were closest to mainland Greeks of these choices, then the other Slavs, but further from East Sicilians and Cretans.

Macedonians were closest to Greeks, but seem to be slightly more "Slavic" than Bulgarians.

Bosnians and especially Croats, were closer to Poles and Ukrainians than to the others.

Why is this? Bosnians aren't simply Serbs of a different religion it seems like, but significantly more Slavic and Croatians even more so.


https://i.imgur.com/kQp2Jpw.png

oz
09-28-2019, 04:23 AM
Yup, it's not news either, it's been known for a long time. Bosnians are closest to Croats than to any other populations. Serbs, especially from Serbia, have more non-Slavic genes, or are more "southern shifted". On average of course.
Which still doesn't stop some Serbian nationalists from claiming Bosnians are still Serbs, only that we are "Western Serbs" and genetically closer to the original ancient Serbs. That we just at some point decided to not be Serbs by converting to different religions and making up new nationalities, they claim the same thing for the majority of Croats.

Which is why some thorough, objective and honest ancient DNA testing from West Balkans and possibly of the ancient Serbs and Croats is needed to provide some actual proofs, instead of just endless nationalist bickering and subjective interpretations of history. But unfortunately that will probably always remain just wishful thinking.

Sikeliot
09-28-2019, 11:51 AM
It is also worth noting that Bulgarians and Macedonians being similar to that "Greek" sample does not mean they aren't significantly Slavic, as even mainland Greeks have significant Slavic ancestry, but that they are closer to Sicilians/Cretans than to Poles while Serbs, Bosnians and especially Croats are not, says something.

sgdavies@hotmail.com
09-28-2019, 12:14 PM
I ran various Balkan Slavic groups on Vahaduo to see if they're closer to East Med peoples or Poles/Ukrainians.

Bulgarians were closer to mainland Greeks, East Sicilians, and Cretans than to either Ukrainians or Poles. Serbs were closest to mainland Greeks of these choices, then the other Slavs, but further from East Sicilians and Cretans.

Macedonians were closest to Greeks, but seem to be slightly more "Slavic" than Bulgarians.

Bosnians and especially Croats, were closer to Poles and Ukrainians than to the others.

Why is this? Bosnians aren't simply Serbs of a different religion it seems like, but significantly more Slavic and Croatians even more so.


https://i.imgur.com/kQp2Jpw.png

Hi just curious,
As you know, Bosnia is split politically on ethnic and religious regions.
Do we know if these results somehow show which groups of Bosnians they belong too?
As a layman, of course should we not already expect a Croat Bosnian to be similar to Croats?
Or are these results saying all Bosnians are the same and are as a group closer to Salvs?

oz
09-28-2019, 10:37 PM
Hi just curious,
As you know, Bosnia is split politically on ethnic and religious regions.
Do we know if these results somehow show which groups of Bosnians they belong too?
As a layman, of course should we not already expect a Croat Bosnian to be similar to Croats?
Or are these results saying all Bosnians are the same and are as a group closer to Salvs?

Yeah that's definitely a valid question. Bosnia has experienced quite a lot of migrations as different historical events took place. Lots of wars were fought there because it's been on a fault line between different empires for who knows how long. Ottomans and Austro-Hungarians have encouraged certain population movements inside the country for their own political purposes as it was a frontier territory for one side or the other. And before that it was split between Eastern and Western Roman influence. WW1 didn't begin here by sheer accident.


As far as genetic differences based on modern ethnic/religious separatism, generally I think there is no significant difference between Bosniaks, Bosnian Croats and Bosnian Serbs who are real Bosnians, who's ancestors are Bosnians going back since medieval Bosnia. It's one and the same people. And I don't know if this has been thoroughly studied in regards to modern Autosomal genetics, but what might be shown is that some Bosniaks and Bosnian Serbs might be closer to Serbians and Montenegrins than the Bosnian Croats because some of their ancestors came from there. For example there's many Bosniaks in Sarajevo who are from Sandzak region in Southwest Serbia and Montenegro who migrated recently since the 90's war. And some Bosnian Serbs might trace their roots or have mixed with Serbs from Serbia and Montenegro. Like I said populations have moved around quite a lot inside that country and surrounds from neighboring countries. And it's not totally unique to Bosnia of course. You have regional differences pretty much everywhere. A Bosnian Croat or Muslim or Serb from Herzegovina or the south of Bosnia might be a little different than the ones in Northern Bosnia. The very rural populations might be different than the city populations. You have those differences in Croatia and Serbia too even bigger than in Bosnia. There are radically different dialects in Croatia and parts of Serbia which you don't find as much in Bosnia where everybody speaks the standard Shtokavian dialect because it actually traces its origin from Bosnian territory, not Croatia or Serbia. But history is one thing, the present is something different and it's more important. Real historical facts are marginalized and swept under the rug or downright perverted if those who hold more power in the present don't find it useful for their interests and agendas.
And that's the sad and unfortunate situation of modern Bosnia in a nutshell.

And like I already said I'd love to see if someone can trace these ancient Serbs and Croats, their migrations and their alleged medieval rulers and do some genetic studies of their remains. Without that, all of it is just a bunch of stories, it's not based on scientific facts.

eastara
09-29-2019, 02:19 AM
Here is to say that the so called Eastern Serbs, also known as Torlaks and Shops were considered Bulgarians in the past. Due to the expansion of Serbia, especially after the Balkan wars they became Serbified, but their original dialect and obviously genetics is closer to Bulgarians.
This way depending where the Serbian reference samples are taken from they look different. If Bosnian Serbs, quite distant from Bulgarians, but if East of Belgrade, rather close.

Ignis90
09-29-2019, 12:20 PM
That's the general trend we've observed for a while now but It's probably more complex than that indeed. For instance, I have Bosniak friends but they are actually originally Montenegro Muslims which migrated to the Sarajevo area in the mid-20th century.

oz
09-30-2019, 02:40 AM
That's the general trend we've observed for a while now but It's probably more complex than that indeed. For instance, I have Bosniak friends but they are actually originally Montenegro Muslims which migrated to the Sarajevo area in the mid-20th century.

As a Bosniak I hate to admit it, but the Bosnian Croats are probably the purest Bosnians and closest to ancient Bosnians ON AVERAGE because the Bosniaks and Serbs have more admixture from east of the Drina river. Also another ironic thing is the surname Bosnjak is most often found in Croats.

eastara
09-30-2019, 01:13 PM
As a Bosniak I hate to admit it, but the Bosnian Croats are probably the purest Bosnians and closest to ancient Bosnians ON AVERAGE because the Bosniaks and Serbs have more admixture from east of the Drina river. Also another ironic thing is the surname Bosnjak is most often found in Croats.

I don't quite understand, are you claiming the Ancient Bosnians were Slavic like and there was NO Slavic migration to the Balkans in Early Medieval times? What is the time frame of the Ancient Bosnians?

ph2ter
09-30-2019, 01:31 PM
I don't quite understand, are you claiming the Ancient Bosnians were Slavic like and there was NO Slavic migration to the Balkans in Early Medieval times? What is the time frame of the Ancient Bosnians?
No, he doesn't claim that. For the ancient Bosnians he surely thinks of Medieval Bosnia before Ottoman invasion.