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View Full Version : Proposed new Silver Z253 Haplogroup Test from YSEQ



RobertCasey
01-09-2014, 10:39 PM
I have been in contact with Thomas Krahn and he has stated that he is ready to take orders for multiple YSNP tests at dramatically lower costs. These would be similar to the haplogroup deep clade tests that FTDNA stated that they would offer sometime in the second part of this year. Using a 96 well plate, the proposed cost would be $499 which equates to on $5.20 per YSNP. This would allow almost all known Z253 YSNPs that have been discovered downstream of Z253. This would include the newly discovered YSNPs for the L226 and PF825 Full Genome tests that have completed to date. This test would be ideal for L226 researchers (355 submissions), Z253* researchers (280 submissions), PF825 researchers (103 submissions) and Z2534* researchers (42 submissions). It would not be a good test for any researchers with downstream YSNPs (L1066, Z2185, L1308, L643, DF73, L554 or L895) - unless you want to discover YSNPs above your current terminal YSNP. Once these haplogroup tests reveal how these YSNPs are related, individual YSNP tests would remain available at $35 per YSNP. Similar tests could be done for L513, DF49, DF21 and other broader haplogroups. As more FG tests and Big Y tests reveal even more YSNPs for the major L21 YSNPs, using a 384 well plate would result in much lower cost per YSNP (which would probably handle 8 to 12 Z253 FG or Big Y discoveries). Over time, these tests will start to have many common older YSNPs that are shared by these testers. This is a static test like the Geno2 or CROMO2. If orders pick up, prices could come down over time. Currently, this is a new beta type test that YSEQ is now ready to roll out. Here is a very preliminary list of YSNPs to be included:

From PF825 FG test - FGC3219 through FGC3268 - 49
From L226 FG test - FGC5618 through FGC5660 - 42
From PF825 FG test - CTS10596, CTS12273, L430, PF2918 - 4
From L226 FG test - CTS3524, CTS3525, K289, M6066 - 4
Common to both - Z252 - equivalent of Z253 to date - 1
Relevant known Z253 YSNPs - Z253, Z2534 - 2

Six are backups for probe / primer / instability / aka YSNPs / etc. issues that could be found (same as with Nat Geo testing). There are a few other YSNPs that could be added as well if the above list has more issues, so all 96 wells would be used.

If you are interested in this test, please post as we need to coordinate testing. These tests need to be genetically diverse from each other and the current FG tests (FG tested and in the FG queue) to be cost-effective. They also need to be genetic diverse from the pending Big Y tests. For L226 and PF825 researchers, around half of these YSNPs will probably be downstream of L226 and PF825. The other half will be between PF825 and Z253 or between L226 and Z253 which will be good for Z253* and Z2534* researchers. There is another L226 Casey researcher that has sent his DNA in last week that will test four of the FGC L226 YSNPs. Although the surname is Casey, this appears to another genetic cluster as the genetic difference is 12.

Here is a partial summary of Z253 FG tests and Big Y tests:

FG Completed, 99512 (PF825+), 77349 (L226+) + FG Pending 233265 & 205635.
Big Y Pending (L226 only) - 25505, 48596, 16274, 293008 and Cannon submission (ftdna id is unknown)

MacUalraig
01-10-2014, 07:29 AM
Glad to see this move although it is still a bit pricey. Would you anticipate an all-L226 one at some stage?

RobertCasey
01-10-2014, 02:51 PM
Glad to see this move although it is still a bit pricey. Would you anticipate an all-L226 one at some stage?

Bigger plates for Z253 would probably be one scenario as the plate size really drives down the costs or reducing the scope to downstream YSNPs would be another approach. The quantity of tests ordered makes another big difference as well. Once we determine a lot really high quality L21 broader YSNPs, a L21 haplogroup test may be another option which would get more orders and hopefully lower prices.

I agree that the price is somewhat high, but these are low quantity orders and high overhead setup. The $499 price tag tracks the Big Y costs which will detract orders and you know the FTDNA haplogroup deep clade tests will be in the $200 range sometime late this year. But just yesterday, everyone was spending $950 for Walk the Y with very little discovery. We need to remember that the Full Genomes tests (and now the YSEQ tests) are probably what resulted in the Big Y test which is a really big step forward. Also, the Full Genome test will discover more YSNPs than the Big Y since coverage is higher (probably in the 20 to 40 % more YSNPs range). The Full Genomes test will also eventually provide major research progress for YSTRs as well.

IrishTypeIII
01-13-2014, 11:12 AM
Here is a partial summary of Z253 FG tests and Big Y tests:

FG Completed, 99512 (PF825+), 77349 (L226+) + FG Pending 233265 & 205635.
Big Y Pending (L226 only) - 25505, 48596, 16274, 293008 and Cannon submission (ftdna id is unknown)
Cannon is N54074

Sitting on wallet until my Big-Y comes in!!!

BTY, Walk-the-Y found L226 in Nov 2009 for $750. The best $75, each of the 10 Irish Type III men spent!

RobertCasey
01-13-2014, 03:43 PM
Cannon is N54074

Sitting on wallet until my Big-Y comes in!!!

BTY, Walk-the-Y found L226 in Nov 2009 for $750. The best $75, each of the 10 Irish Type III men spent!

It is pretty sad that we spent $750 for one YSNP discovery just four years ago - yet no takers on testing 48 L226 related YSNPs. Half of these 48 YSNPs
(this is 24 new YSNPs) should be post L226 and half should be between L226 and Z253. I will kick in $100 of the $500 for the Z253 YSNP test - this is addition
to the $1,250 for my original FG test. Just four more $100 pledges will get us another test. I think the person getting tested should kick in $200 or $300
since his line is getting tested. If you kick in $400, we are ready to go. Any other pledges of $100 ? Just remember that 24 of these YSNPs should be
post L226 in origin - so L226 submissions would be the best to start out with. But there are also 24 YSNPs between L226 and Z253 as well for submissions
that need testing in that time frame. For those between L226 and Z253, you also get 48 more potential YSNPs to test from the PF825 test results that
are also included in the test and probably another 24 YSNPs are between PF825 and Z253.

IrishTypeIII
01-19-2014, 10:32 AM
Before the Walk-The-Y became available we were testing every new single SNP that came along. WTY was a big investment for the 10 of us, but we found OUR SNP, the one that lifted us out of the Irish soup and made us an entity at last! Dal gCais was a haplogroup.

Now we have several Wide-ranging SNP tests available to us; Geno 2.0, Full Genome, Chromo2, Big-Y and now SilverZ253 to try and divide the R-L226 group. Different folks are testing each of these.

I and 5 others have each invested $499 on Big-Y and we haven't even seen any results yet and you think we should shell out a further $500 on a test which is likely to overlap the Big-Y?

Let's see what our present investment yields ... if it covers the same 10 million base pairs and results in 25,000 SNPs being analyzed, then surely we will see the same 48 SNPs that Silver Z253 is testing. If not, then we can look at Silver Z253.

"Patience young grasshopper..." Karate Kid

RobertCasey
01-20-2014, 05:32 PM
I and 5 others have each invested $499 on Big-Y and we haven't even seen any results yet and you think we should shell out a further $500 on a test which is likely to overlap the Big-Y?

Let's see what our present investment yields ... if it covers the same 10 million base pairs and results in 25,000 SNPs being analyzed, then surely we will see the same 48 SNPs that Silver Z253 is testing. If not, then we can look at Silver Z253.



I would not recommend the Z253 Silver test for anyone who has a pending Big Y or Full Genomes test as they already have their list of newly discovered YSNPs. Once the six Big Y and my Full Genomes are all available for analysis, we will be able to sort five to ten of the older L226 YSNPs that are negative for some of our testers. However, we will still need broad testing of all the newly discovered YSNPs vs. testing one at a time at $39 each. This test is for somebody who wants to test now and get results earlier. It would probably be better for somebody who shares a lot of the L226 off-modal mutations of the Casey cluster - 534<=14, 393<=12, 458<=16, 449>=30, 464b>14, 460>=12 and 481>=23. Here are some very good candidates:

Cary - 189591 - 11/14 match, GD=7
Hogan - 32082 - 10/14 match, GD=8
Brown - 82328 - 10/14 match, GD=9
Unk - 132875 - 10/14 match, GD=10

My test will also include 20 to 30 % more YSNPs than the Big Y tests since my test was 14,000,000 base pairs vs. the 10,000,000 base pairs. This test will accelerate the FTDNA haplogroup test as well. Eventually, we will be able to eliminate half of our older YSNPs (between L226 and Z253) and include around four L226 tests into the L226 Silver test as well. But without some more testing of existing known possible YSNPs, they will only trickle in a few at a time AND will be the older divisions of L226 since the sample size is only seven total. This test will tie some very recent near private YSNPs which is what we are really after. All four of the above submissions would be ISOGG qualifying but would be a very small group of 20 or 30 submissions of the 200 or 300 67 marker L226 submissions.

BTW - it is becoming pretty obvious to me, that 481>=23 will track the older YSNPs under L226. Not really sure how this fact should affect our testing strategy. It is always best to test surname clusters that have five or ten matching submissions as there is more submissions to analyze. Here are the reasons why:

1) Around 30 % of L226 are 481>=23 and the other 70 % are 481=22. Only two submissions are 481<=21. This is clearly a significant post-L226 mutation.
2) It also matches the L226 clan lore that Caseys, O'Briens and Hogans are related after 600 AD (the approximate age of L226) and matches nicely
with the clan connections.

IrishTypeIII
02-14-2014, 12:02 AM
132875 is also a Carey

Regarding DYS481, three of the Big-Y are 22 and three are 23. Is that fortuitous or what?

DYS481=22
N54074 Cannon
16274 Anderson
293008 McMahon

DYS481=23
25505 Wright
48596 O'Brien
293338 Dunn

There is more and more circumstantial evidence that I am descended from an escaped convict, John O'Brien who changed his name to John Wright around 1830. John O'Brien was from Waterford and if this is my connection then the Waterford O'Briens leave the tree around 1370 AD.