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Milkyway
10-06-2019, 01:03 PM
The woman from the Dolní Věstonice 3 burial: a new view of the face using modern technologies


Abstract
South Moravia (Czech Republic) has provided numerous Upper Palaeolithic—Gravettian sites (33–22 kyr BP) with a great deal of human skeletal remains. One such site is the well-known burial of a gracile, 36- to 45-year-old female, found in Dolní Věstonice I in 1949. Palaeopathological examination of the female’s skull showed extensive pathological damage with significant asymmetry of the facial area as a result of a traumatic injury in childhood. The goal of this article is to summarise all information and make a virtual reconstruction of the original skull including a facial reconstruction. The condition of the skull from grave DV 3 was generally very poor and fragmentary; it was restored in the 1950s. We used computer tomography (CT) analysis and a 3D scan of the skull. For the 3D reconstruction of the face, we used a method based on prediction rules by G. Lebedinskaya. The results of the new CT analysis confirm an irregular formation of the braincase. For the first time, we can compare the original state of the skull with the reconstruction. On the basis of the results of artistic facial reconstruction, we can present the “real” face of a woman who is 25,000–27,000 years old. This combination of CT and 3D data allowed us to create a new 3D virtual model. Though the facial reconstruction took into account the post-traumatic condition of the woman’s face and the asymmetry of the bones is obvious, the degree of asymmetry is subjective.


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https://www.filthymonkeymen.com/2018/10/25/facial-reconstruction-shaman/
https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s12520-018-0698-3

Kale
10-07-2019, 04:21 PM
Wow, that's a really common look by today's standards. It's interesting that the more recent, and likely close-descendents of people like her, the WHG, tend to look a little more exotic.

Milkyway
10-07-2019, 10:52 PM
Wow, that's a really common look by today's standards. It's interesting that the more recent, and likely close-descendents of people like her, the WHG, tend to look a little more exotic.

I'm not sure whether her skin color and hair texture are accurate (I think that most Paleolithic Europeans had dark skin, and no DNA analysis was performed in that work). Possibly the authors used the contemporary Czech population as reference for the traits they had no information about.

Michalis Moriopoulos
10-07-2019, 10:53 PM
I don't think it's very likely she had medium brown hair and light skin.

JerryS.
10-08-2019, 02:22 AM
she looks awfully modern central European for being 25,000 years old.

Milkyway
10-08-2019, 11:08 AM
Here's another reconstruction of a Paleolithic woman from France (Abri-Pataud) by Élisabeth Daynès. Perhaps her looks are more realistic when it comes to skin pigmentation?

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http://www.daynes.com/en/hominids-reconstructions/homo-sapiens-abri-pataud-52.html

JerryS.
10-08-2019, 03:24 PM
my guess it would be somewhere in between.

Kale
10-08-2019, 04:25 PM
I'm not sure whether her skin color and hair texture are accurate (I think that most Paleolithic Europeans had dark skin, and no DNA analysis was performed in that work). Possibly the authors used the contemporary Czech population as reference for the traits they had no information about.

I think it's a given not to take pigmentation of a reconstruction seriously unless they explicitly provide a genetic basis, but I was just talking about the shape of the face and head. Contrast that with the French one you posted, which looks more like Magdelanian individuals, who would perhaps not be out of the realm of modern variation, but would definitely look a little odd.

parasar
10-08-2019, 05:12 PM
I think it's a given not to take pigmentation of a reconstruction seriously unless they explicitly provide a genetic basis, but I was just talking about the shape of the face and head. Contrast that with the French one you posted, which looks more like Magdelanian individuals, who would perhaps not be out of the realm of modern variation, but would definitely look a little odd.

And they should do away with the hair part too.

Milkyway
10-08-2019, 10:35 PM
I think it's a given not to take pigmentation of a reconstruction seriously unless they explicitly provide a genetic basis, but I was just talking about the shape of the face and head. Contrast that with the French one you posted, which looks more like Magdelanian individuals, who would perhaps not be out of the realm of modern variation, but would definitely look a little odd.

The 25,000 year old Czech woman has a nose shape that's different from that of tropical populations like Africans, Papuans and some Asians. West Eurasians usually have narrower noses (an adaptation to cold environments?) as this woman did. So it seems that at some point, narrow noses were selected for in W. Eurasia. Paleolithic fossils from Europe didn't belong to a homogenous population, and I recall that some remains like those of Grimaldi Man had features that are very rare in present-day Europeans. By the way, here's the most recent reconstruction of the famous Cro-magnon 1 man (he had a skin condition):


https://d.newsweek.com/en/full/867222/cromagnon.jpg?w=1600&h=1600&q=88&f=85c8268128a944538f4887981687a3c4

That Abri Pataud reconstruction reminds me of Rihanna.

client
10-09-2019, 07:11 AM
was this her self portrait? :D
From Dolní Věstonice.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C0siDpgXcAA1Z7G?format=jpg&name=small
http://www.iabrno.cz/agalerie/gravet42.jpg



The hairstyle in the reconstruction is probably based on this.

Milkyway
10-09-2019, 11:21 AM
was this her self portrait? :D
From Dolní Věstonice.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C0siDpgXcAA1Z7G?format=jpg&name=small
http://www.iabrno.cz/agalerie/gravet42.jpg



The hairstyle in the reconstruction is probably based on this.

It's possible considering she seems to have been a prominent figure in her tribe. On this website you can find more reconstructions of prehistoric sculptures and fossils (some are really awesome :biggrin1:):

http://www.iabrno.cz/agalerie/aagalery.htm

Odysseus1
10-09-2019, 04:42 PM
I do think that with these kind of reconstruction you can have faces that vary a lot, don't take it too seriously.

Odysseus1
10-09-2019, 05:09 PM
In fact you have artists that tried to reconstruct other very old skeletons, it is likely to be more a piece of art than a real anthropological reconstruction.

It's a shame that during 40 years mainstream medias pushed these kind of things to the public opinion despite the little to no reliability and scientific support.

JerryS.
10-09-2019, 05:15 PM
In fact you have artists that tried to reconstruct other very old skeletons, it is likely to be more a piece of art than a real anthropological reconstruction.

It's a shame that during 40 years mainstream medias pushed these kind of things to the public opinion despite the little to no reliability and scientific support.

I agree. give these reconstructionist the same skull with no reference data and they will each create a different finished product based on their artistical bias.

Odysseus1
10-09-2019, 05:19 PM
I agree. give these reconstructionist the same skull with no reference data and they will each create a different finished product based on their artistical bias.

Yep it's totally that. They labelled that as a real reconstruction but it's a deceit.

Odysseus1
10-09-2019, 05:23 PM
https://www.sciencemag.org/sites/default/files/styles/article_main_large/public/images/CMNH-Lucy-Reconstruction_16x9.jpg

A piece of art, not a piece of science.

It's like reconstructing a whole building with only the foundations.

Ajeje Brazorf
10-09-2019, 08:26 PM
[1] "distance%=8.6475"

CZE_Vestonice16

Basque_Spanish,39.6
Saami,24.2
Malayan,13
Latvian,8
Onge,4.8
Kosipe,3
Bantu_Kenya,2.8
Biaka,1.4
Ju_hoan_North,1.2
Mende_Sierra_Leone,0.8
Surui,0.8
Koinanbe,0.4

Kale
10-10-2019, 02:42 AM
Well the reliability of forensic facial reconstruction can be demonstrated in general through modern investigations when unknown bodies are found. I was actually looking that up real quick, but I found this instead.

Apparently you can take a free online class in forensic facial reconstruction?
https://www.futurelearn.com/courses/forensic-facial-reconstruction

Milkyway
10-10-2019, 11:19 AM
Well the reliability of forensic facial reconstruction can be demonstrated in general through modern investigations when unknown bodies are found. I was actually looking that up real quick, but I found this instead.

Apparently you can take a free online class in forensic facial reconstruction?
https://www.futurelearn.com/courses/forensic-facial-reconstruction

I'm completely clueless on the subject, but I guess that forensic doctors are able to reconstruct accurately facial traits because these exist in modern populations. The thing is that we don't have representatives of the human population that lived in Vestonice 25,000 YBP, or of any other prehistoric population. The relatives of the Abri-Pataud, Vestonice and Cro-Magnon 1 man are long gone. A similar case is that of the Kennewick man: some reconstructions paint him as white, while in others he looks Japanese. That's why it must be difficult to guess exactly what their faces looked like. Their nose/lip/eye shape may no longer exist in contemporary populations. I think it's even more difficult with different species (Neanderthals, Denisovans...), that's why you can easily find 10 reconstructions of the same specimen that look nothing alike.