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Kellebel
10-06-2019, 08:26 PM
Short version: does anyone know anything about the Eastern Mediterranean signals in this area?

Long version:
For totally egoistic reasons, I'd like to open a thread about the genetics from around the Rhine. I've noticed some trends and since I'm surrounded by a bunch of intelligent people here knowing their stuff, I'd like to take advantage of your knowledge.

My mother's results, aswell as those from her matches who come either directly from the Rhine area or very close, always give some Eastern Mediterranean signals. The signals are remarkable, because my dad's results and those from my matches outside of this area typically lack them.

In two recent studies on France, although the sampling might not be perfect, I've noticed the Italian traces in northeastern France aswell. I even asked about it the other day and proposed a possible continuum via the Rhine. Then I was browsing through the New Papers Discussion thread and came across the following posts:


At FTDNA, at the moment ~31% of Dutch is I-M270;
~23% is I-M253, ~6% is I-M223. Exact percentages are difficult to give since not everyone tested at the same level.
The I-M270 map seems a bit over the top, although it agrees with the southwest-northeast gradient expected (especially for I-M253 but probably also for some I2-clades), the gradient seems exaggerated because of additional Nordic influence and founder effects in the northeast.

The G-map seems as expected; perhaps reflective for LBK.
R1a seems strong in Saxon areas and where Saxons/Frisians later settled (Utrecht), perhaps some from Vikings that went up the rivers.
E-V13 is unclear to me, as is R-DF27>M167.
J2-M172 is especially strong in the Southwest; this area had a lot of Flemish/Walloon input in the 17th century. The blob in the central-east is near Roman borders.


J2 is relatively common along the Rhine, compared to neighbouring areas. It peaks somewhere in the southwest of Baden-Wuerttemberg around 7% and declines northwards. Since the Roman borders roughly overlapped with the Rhine river, it's diufficult to tell whether J2 was spread by Romans along their border, or a J2 rich population moved alongside the Rhine from south to north.


We know that Delmato-Illyrians were stationed along the Rhine in Germany from inscriptions found Bingerbrück, Rheinland-Pfalz:

https://scontent.fprn1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/68751370_674455586403893_2537912659290882048_o.jpg ?_nc_cat=101&_nc_oc=AQl_9MMBh2UMw-fNcNIHbhZXuTL__xuj4k7m_GMEe_-SZngICe_vhD9xHevJRxbm34I&_nc_ht=scontent.fprn1-1.fna&oh=ed63ec00820e28c704c15540bf9018b3&oe=5E09F49E


(Ditiones were an Illyrian tribe).


In Rheinland-Pfalz we also find old J2b2-L283 sample on Yfull:

https://scontent.fprn1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/68355629_674456386403813_197856520417837056_o.jpg? _nc_cat=110&_nc_oc=AQkcZjCv4rbpeIn7fnRQxakMhcM2OxSmmsuCvsn93pI iSs0Opz9cJrRmlSJ9SvHFLbY&_nc_ht=scontent.fprn1-1.fna&oh=1cec1cc61ed53fcf4243dde384586405&oe=5E0236AB

L283 is found in 1500BC tumulus on pre-illyrian Croatian coast:

https://scontent.fprn1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/68455141_674488789733906_140700272463708160_o.jpg? _nc_cat=100&_nc_oc=AQnZ9QYSWuGqFlN5xd-3VVqJV-KDLldg_oUnLzukHLrDLg6APbSTAbNPKM0O3pLHp9c&_nc_ht=scontent.fprn1-1.fna&oh=568527d4f9b7718421e6394e43d8966e&oe=5E045797



However, since this study only gives J2-M172 though its hard to say as it could be J2a, but if its J2b, its high probability it is L283. But, something to keep in mind when looking through possible connections.

I'd love to hear from those who have some relevant knowledge/information/studies/theories etc on the matter.

StillWater
10-06-2019, 10:07 PM
The obvious connection between the Rhine and the Eastern Mediterranean is that the Rhine was the Ashkenazi ethnogenesis.

Kellebel
10-06-2019, 10:52 PM
The obvious connection between the Rhine and the Eastern Mediterranean is that the Rhine was the Ashkenazi ethnogenesis.

I was thinking that, but wouldn't the signals be obviously Ashkenazi instead of Italian or some sort of Eastern Med? My mom and the matches from the Rhine area get Italian, but no Ashkenazi on 23andMe.

StillWater
10-06-2019, 11:25 PM
I was thinking that, but wouldn't the signals be obviously Ashkenazi instead of Italian or some sort of Eastern Med? My mom and the matches from the Rhine area get Italian, but no Ashkenazi on 23andMe.

Depends how early they exited the Jewish people. A very old Jewish segment may not be classified as Jewish today.

Kellebel
10-06-2019, 11:36 PM
Depends how early they exited the Jewish people. A very old Jewish segment may not be classified as Jewish today.

So, pre-bottleneck Jewish you mean?

StillWater
10-06-2019, 11:59 PM
So, pre-bottleneck Jewish you mean?

Even if it was after the bottleneck, these tests only go back about 500 years.

Kellebel
10-07-2019, 12:32 AM
Even if it was after the bottleneck, these tests only go back about 500 years.

Personally I'm not buying 23's claim of 500 years, but even if it was true: that would mean that any Ashkenazi they'd trace, would be from after the bottleneck, as the bottleneck happened 800 to 600 years ago. Since their Ashkenazi is pretty much perfectly on point, any Jewish segment inherited from those 350 founders would probably not be mislabeled as Italian. Especially not in so many different people. So post-bottleneck Ashkenazi seems very unlikely to me. I just can't imagine 23 wouldn't pick that up in so many people.

JerryS.
10-07-2019, 02:00 AM
is it possible that there is some "unofficial" Italian in your mom's line? Ashkenazi would show as just that I would think.

Kellebel
10-07-2019, 02:15 AM
is it possible that there is some "unofficial" Italian in your mom's line?
NPEs are always a possibility as I have witnessed myself, but I don't think so. She'd show lots of recent, full Italian matches, which she doesn't. Her results are perfectly in line with those from the same area as hers and her close paternal matches. She's just one of many. I'm more inclined to think that it's something more ancient that has affected the founder population of the region. A bit like how every European has a tiny percentage of Neanderthal these days. Not sure if I'm making sense lol.


Ashkenazi would show as just that I would think.

Yes, I think so too.

JerryS.
10-07-2019, 02:39 AM
NPEs are always a possibility as I have witnessed myself, but I don't think so. She'd show lots of recent, full Italian matches, which she doesn't. Her results are perfectly in line with those from the same area as hers and her close paternal matches. She's just one of many. I'm more inclined to think that it's something more ancient that has affected the founder population of the region. A bit like how every European has a tiny percentage of Neanderthal these days. Not sure if I'm making sense lol.



Yes, I think so too.

full Italian matches would be if full Italians took the test with the same company as she. but aside from that, how much Mediterranean are we talking about here anyway? I see you are mentioning haplogroup J2 or something. That just shows where a line came from but doesn't mean that there is recent ancestry from there.... for instance haplogroup I1 which is Scandinavian derived is about 5% of the Sicilian haplogroups. this does not mean a Sicilian will show a significant Viking regional ethnicity, just that 1,000 or so years ago a Viking man left his DNA there and its produced a male each generation to this day.

Pylsteen
10-07-2019, 07:53 AM
Perhaps the founding of Roman colonies along the Rhine may have played a role - if settlers were rich in east mediterranean.

Kellebel
10-07-2019, 01:27 PM
full Italian matches would be if full Italians took the test with the same company as she. but aside from that, how much Mediterranean are we talking about here anyway? I see you are mentioning haplogroup J2 or something. That just shows where a line came from but doesn't mean that there is recent ancestry from there.... for instance haplogroup I1 which is Scandinavian derived is about 5% of the Sicilian haplogroups. this does not mean a Sicilian will show a significant Viking regional ethnicity, just that 1,000 or so years ago a Viking man left his DNA there and its produced a male each generation to this day.

It's about trace signals, so they aren't that big. But it's the consistency in it that grabs my attention. I'm not really trying to focus on just my mother's results here, but more on the results of all people around the Rhine (especially between the Rhine and Meuse out of personal reasons) as it seems to concentrate there fore some reason. Atleast that's what I've seen so far, so that's why I mentioned J2: it reflects what I've been seeing. I'm not looking for recent ancestry, I'm blessed to have found her biological father and his family tree. Seeing the distribution pattern, I think it's more ancient, but that doesn't mean it's less interesting. In fact, for me it would be the contrary.

But to answer your question: my mom's "Italian" ranges from 3% to 6% on 23 (it moves around every update), from 12% to 20% on other sites. It's perfectly within expectations comparing to others of her ancestry. But it's just remarkable how neighbouring people don't get these trace results. Sometimes the contrast is even being seen in neighbouring villages.

Kellebel
10-07-2019, 01:35 PM
Perhaps the founding of Roman colonies along the Rhine may have played a role - if settlers were rich in east mediterranean.

I think the time frame would make sense, since it seems that the IBD sharing is not as high as the admixture would suggest. I now regret I never paid more attention during Latin class, perhaps I would've known up to what point there could've been some mixing going on, where the people in those colonies would generally come from, etc.

33738

Kellebel
10-07-2019, 05:36 PM
I just realized it would've been better to post this in International Area > Europe > Western.. :doh:

JerryS.
10-07-2019, 06:30 PM
I just realized it would've been better to post this in International Area > Europe > Western.. :doh:

your signature listed groups do not match your flags. in fact, you have nothing from across the English channel yet you and your mother score 75% or more of that [English]. how does that get explained away?

Kellebel
10-07-2019, 07:01 PM
your signature listed groups do not match your flags. in fact, you have nothing from across the English channel yet you and your mother score 75% or more of that [English]. how does that get explained away?

I think it's an attempt to look for something in between. Her first populations come up as French, South Dutch/Belgian and Western/Southern Germany at a distance of around 5. I think her region hasn't got sampled well and that might be the primary issue.

JerryS.
10-07-2019, 07:09 PM
I think it's an attempt to look for something in between. Her first populations come up as French, South Dutch/Belgian and Western/Southern Germany at a distance of around 5. I think her region hasn't got sampled well and that might be the primary issue.

that least square stuff is only good for people of one ethnic group. regionally mixed people it shows what a mixture of your groups might be close to on a scale. regular oracles show a primary group and a secondary group. what that does is place your most common and numerous groups in one average group, then whats left over that doesn't fit get mixed again and placed again in another less numerous group. this is why I can get Frisian as a primary group and Italian or Greek as a secondary group.

82.4% Frisian ( ) + 17.6% Greek_Thessaloniki ( ) @ 1.89
84.9% Frisian ( ) + 15.1% Sicilian_Center ( ) @ 2.04
82.1% Frisian ( ) + 17.9% Greek_Peloponnesos ( ) @ 2.14

or

87.4% Orkney (1000 Genomes) + 12.6% Sicilian (Dodecad) @ 1.66
87% Orkney (1000 Genomes) + 13% S_Italian_Sicilian (Dodecad) @ 1.79
81.5% Argyll (1000 Genomes) + 18.5% TSI (HapMap) @ 1.84

Kellebel
10-07-2019, 07:20 PM
that least square stuff is only good for people of one ethnic group. regionally mixed people it shows what a mixture of your groups might be close to on a scale. regular oracles show a primary group and a secondary group. what that does is place your most common and numerous groups in one average group, then whats left over that doesn't fit get mixed again and placed again in another less numerous group. this is why I can get Frisian as a primary group and Italian or Greek as a secondary group.

82.4% Frisian ( ) + 17.6% Greek_Thessaloniki ( ) @ 1.89
84.9% Frisian ( ) + 15.1% Sicilian_Center ( ) @ 2.04
82.1% Frisian ( ) + 17.9% Greek_Peloponnesos ( ) @ 2.14

or

87.4% Orkney (1000 Genomes) + 12.6% Sicilian (Dodecad) @ 1.66
87% Orkney (1000 Genomes) + 13% S_Italian_Sicilian (Dodecad) @ 1.79
81.5% Argyll (1000 Genomes) + 18.5% TSI (HapMap) @ 1.84

Ha, those are VERY similar to some of my mom's, have you noticed? That's funny! What's your ancestry?

mihaitzateo
10-07-2019, 08:02 PM
J2B from Illyrians have been moved by the Alpine and Central Europe Celts, being found especially in Austria and South Germany.
Those Celtic tribes that have acquired J2B from Illyrians and moved it, were Celtic ethnics, not Illyrians.
About Rhine genetics - all people near, starting with Switzerland and till Netherlands should have various Celtic tribes genes and normally, the Germanic people genetics.
In the North part of the Rhine, seems to have been Alans and/or Scythians,or at least this is what some English are claiming, that Saxons from Lower Saxony were descendants of Scythians.
Sure, that is only a legend, but there might be some truth behind it, like some Scythians settling in North Germany and mixing with the locals.
Scythians and Alans could have also brought J2, besides the movement of Celtic tribes.
The thing is that is East Frisia there is 5% R1B-L23 and 3% J1 and 3% J2, which is not so probable to be brought by Hallstatt Celtic tribes, since I doubt they moved so North from the Alps, but rather from Scythians and Alans.

In Lower Saxony there are both J2 (3% of the paternal lines) and R1B-L23 (1% of the paternal lines).
So at it is seen, as you move East from Fristia, J1 is not present anymore and R1B-L23 decreases.
R1B-L23 and J2 in Lower Saxony, East Frisia and even Netherlands (I do not know if Netherlands also got such Y DNA) can be from Scythians and Alans.

Switzerland does not have R1B-L23, while Hessen has even 7% R1b-L23 and 4% J2.
So, it cannot be the Illyrians, but Scythians, Alans and Celtic tribes, that moved these Haplogroups.

J2-M172 is more likely to be of Scythians and Alans origins and J2-L283 is more likely to be of Celtic origins.

But Celtic tribes dwelt between Scythians, before moving to Central Europe.
So you cannot be so sure that J2-M172 is not also of Celtic origins.

A little notice, in North Baden J2 reaches 9% .South Baden got 7% and Salzburg/Tyrol reaches even 20% J2.
These are clearly looking as Celtic origins, mostly, not as Illyrians.
As we move North Germany and Netherlands, J2 is more likely of Scythians/Alans origins, and as we move near Alps, of Celtic origins.

Switzerland also got like 6% J2, but there were no Illyrians in Switzerland.

https://j2-m172.info/tag/scythian/ - So, J2-M172 is very likely of Scythians origins.
And J2B-L283 is of Celtic origins.

Were Alpine Celts and more Scythian like Celts, using horses, a lot.
Is quite logical that Alans and Scythians would have had a hard time living on High Ground and Celtic tribes that used horses a lot, also a hard time , living in non-flat lands.
This is why I said that higher grounds from near Rhine are more likely to not have their J2 from Scythians and Alans, but Alpine Celts.

Ruderico
10-07-2019, 08:09 PM
I just realized it would've been better to post this in International Area > Europe > Western.. :doh:

Done.

Kellebel
10-07-2019, 08:39 PM
Done.

Oh you're a doll, thank you!

Kellebel
10-07-2019, 08:49 PM
J2B from Illyrians have also been moved by the Hallstatt Celts, being found especially in Austria and South Germany.
In the North part of the Rhine, seems to have been Alans and/or Scythians,or at least this is what some English are claiming, that Saxons from Lower Saxony were descendants of Scythians.
Sure, that is only a legend, but there might be some truth behind it, like some Scythians settling in North Germany and mixing with the locals.
Scythians and Alans could have also brought J2, besides the movement of Celtic tribes.
The thing is that is East Frisia there is 5% R1B-L23 and 3% J1 and 3% J2, which is not so probable to be brought by Hallstatt Celtic tribes, since I doubt they moved so North from the Alps, but rather from Scythians and Alans.

In Lower Saxony there are both J2 (3% of the paternal lines) and R1B-L23 (1% of the paternal lines).
So at it is seen, as you move East from Fristia, J1 is not present anymore and R1B-L23 decreases.
R1B-L23 and J2 in Lower Saxony, East Frisia and even Netherlands (I do not know if Netherlands also got such Y DNA) can be from Scythians and Alans.

So it would be possible that even the autosomal signals could also be as ancient as the Hallstatt Culture?

JerryS.
10-07-2019, 09:03 PM
So it would be possible that even the autosomal signals could also be as ancient as the Hallstatt Culture?

just so I am understanding things.... you can have a Y haplogroup from the Middle East in Norway but show virtually no Middle Eastern ancestry if the introduction of such was line was 6 generations (~150 years) ago.

mihaitzateo
10-07-2019, 09:19 PM
So it would be possible that even the autosomal signals could also be as ancient as the Hallstatt Culture?

See that I updated the thread with more info.
Yes, surely Hallstatt culture also included a part of the Rhine area.

Hallstatt Celts were also once reaching till in what is now the land of Slovenia , so they have been in contact with Illyrians.
There is G2A, at least in Netherlands, 2.5% which is also related to Alpine Celts.

There is also plenty R1B-DF27/R1B-S116, which is of Celtic, not of Iberian origins, being also present in Germany.
There is also some R1B-U152 which is shared between Alpine Celts and Romans, but we can rather suppose most from Belgium and Netherlands is of Alpine/Hallstatt Celts origins.
Since you asked about East Mediteranean, there is J2-M172 in Netherlands, which is Scythian, as said before and is a connection to rather Black Sea :) .

Here is a nice study with paternal lines from Netherlands:
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41431-019-0496-0

JMcB
10-07-2019, 09:24 PM
just so I am understanding things.... you can have a Y haplogroup from the Middle East in Norway but show virtually no Middle Eastern ancestry if the introduction of such was line was 6 generations (~150 years) ago.

If someone from the Middle East moved to Norway and married a Norwegian woman and all of his son’s continued marrying Norwegian women, eventually his Middle Eastern autosomal DNA would be subsumed by Norwegian DNA. While his YDNA Haplogroup would continue to be passed down to his male ancestors. Personally, I think his autosomal DNA would last longer than 150 years but eventually it would all be replaced by his Norwegian descendants indigenous DNA.

Kellebel
10-07-2019, 09:39 PM
If someone from the Middle East moved to Norway and married a Norwegian woman and all of his son’s continued marrying Norwegian women, eventually his Middle Eastern autosomal DNA would be subsumed by Norwegian DNA. While his YDNA Haplogroup would continue to be passed down to his male ancestors. Personally, I think his autosomal DNA would last longer than 150 years but eventually it would all be replaced by his Norwegian descendants indigenous DNA.

Unless.. let's saaayy.. There's a village of 100 people. 5 of them are babies from one or two Roman soldiers. Those babies grow up, marry and get kids within the same village. Let's repeat that a couple of generations up to the point where everyone has ancestry from atleast one of those founder babies. In the end it'll smoothen out to approx. 2.5% "Roman" in each person in that village. So a person with 2.5% marrying with another person with 2.5% will get a baby with 2.5%. It's like how the Neanderthal genes survived in living Europeans. It's a very simplistic explanation, but it's the best I can do, sorry. I have troubles with expressing the choas in my head. :lol:

mihaitzateo
10-07-2019, 09:40 PM
Just checked more, Flemish and Dutch people have plenty of I1 and R1B-U106.
Which is from their West Lowlands Germanic ancestry.
They also have lots of R1B-P312 paternal lines, which is Celtic and a minority could come from Romans .
Some smal percentage of Scythian Y DNA so the English legend has some truth in it.
I suppose the Original poster is mostly interested about people from North Rhine area, that are speaking West Low German and not by the genetics from people from near Rhine that are speaking West High German.

JMcB
10-07-2019, 09:43 PM
Unless.. let's saaayy.. There's a village of 100 people. 5 of them are babies from one or two Roman soldiers. Those babies grow up, marry and get kids within the same village. Let's repeat that a couple of generations up to the point where everyone has ancestry from atleast one of those founder babies. In the end it'll smoothen out to approx. 2.5% "Roman" in each person in that village. So a person with 2.5% marrying with another person with 2.5% will get a baby with 2.5%. It's like how the Neanderthal genes survived in living Europeans. It's a very simplistic explanation, but it's the best I can do, sorry. I have troubles with expressing the choas in my head. :lol:

That’s quite alright. I remember chaos well. ;-)

JerryS.
10-07-2019, 09:51 PM
If someone from the Middle East moved to Norway and married a Norwegian woman and all of his son’s continued marrying Norwegian women, eventually his Middle Eastern autosomal DNA would be subsumed by Norwegian DNA. While his YDNA Haplogroup would continue to be passed down to his male ancestors. Personally, I think his autosomal DNA would last longer than 150 years but eventually it would all be replaced by his Norwegian descendants indigenous DNA.

yes, his Y (J2...?) haplogroup would continue as long as there are sons born to that line, but ethnicity results showing a Middle Eastern population at 6 generations passed would be only 3% or so, right? i.e. 97% Norwegian + 3% Lebanese...

Kellebel
10-07-2019, 09:59 PM
Just checked more, Flemish and Dutch people have plenty of I1 and R1B-U106.
Which is from their West Lowlands Germanic ancestry.
They also have lots of R1B-P312 paternal lines, which is Celtic and a minority could come from Romans .
Some smal percentage of Scythian Y DNA so the English legend has some truth in it.
I suppose the Original poster is mostly interested about people from North Rhine area, that are speaking West Low German and not by the genetics from people from near Rhine that are speaking West High German.

Thank you! Actually, I'm interested mostly in people from the ultimate southern North Rhine - Westphalia, Rhineland - Palatinate, Baden - Württemberg, the ultimate southern Dutch South Limburg, Liège, Belgian Luxembourg, Luxembourg and Alsace - Lorraine.

asquecco
10-07-2019, 10:09 PM
Yes, surely Hallstatt culture also included a part of the Rhine area.
Hallstatt Celts were also once reaching till in what is now the land of Slovenia , so they have been in contact with Illyrians.

I think it was more than a contact:
https://bit.ly/YDNA-R-S20782
at least as far as R-U152>L2>Z49>S8183>S22778>S20782 is involved.

msmarjoribanks
10-07-2019, 11:05 PM
Thank you! Actually, I'm interested mostly in people from the ultimate southern North Rhine - Westphalia, Rhineland - Palatinate, Baden - Württemberg, the ultimate southern Dutch South Limburg, Liège, Belgian Luxembourg, Luxembourg and Alsace - Lorraine.

Not sure how well you can narrow in on the others, but if you look at Western Germany in the Eurogenes spreadsheets it tends to have higher Eastern Med than other parts of Germany or than the British Isles or any of the Dutch results they give (which probably are not specific enough for your purposes).

I'm skeptical about samples/sample size used for the calculators at Gedmatch, but I think this is relevant.

Kellebel
10-07-2019, 11:20 PM
Not sure how well you can narrow in on the others, but if you look at Western Germany in the Eurogenes spreadsheets it tends to have higher Eastern Med than other parts of Germany or than the British Isles or any of the Dutch results they give (which probably are not specific enough for your purposes).

I'm skeptical about samples/sample size used for the calculators at Gedmatch, but I think this is relevant.

I've noticed this too. For comparison, my mother has 10.97 Eastern Med on K13. Her closest populations according to papertrail:
South Dutch: 7.37
French: 10.33
West German: 8.54

Pretty close to France and on plots she's often placed with French people, but her French ancestry isn't all that much, it doesn't exceed 1/8th of her ancestry and it's mostly northern French, while the French sample surely is a bit more central/southern. I wish they'd update these spreadsheets already.

JMcB
10-08-2019, 12:11 AM
yes, his Y (J2...?) haplogroup would continue as long as there are sons born to that line, but ethnicity results showing a Middle Eastern population at 6 generations passed would be only 3% or so, right? i.e. 97% Norwegian + 3% Lebanese...

I’m sorry, I answered the previous post from the activity page and in retrospect, I should have read the earlier posts first. As I see you already knew that. As for the percentages, if I remember correctly, those sound about right.

spruithean
10-08-2019, 12:37 AM
Just checked more, Flemish and Dutch people have plenty of I1 and R1B-U106.
Which is from their West Lowlands Germanic ancestry.
They also have lots of R1B-P312 paternal lines, which is Celtic and a minority could come from Romans .
Some smal percentage of Scythian Y DNA so the English legend has some truth in it.
I suppose the Original poster is mostly interested about people from North Rhine area, that are speaking West Low German and not by the genetics from people from near Rhine that are speaking West High German.

What English legend? The one from Sharon Turner? I would put that stuff firmly in the garbage.

Dewsloth
10-08-2019, 09:00 PM
Thank you! Actually, I'm interested mostly in people from the ultimate southern North Rhine - Westphalia, Rhineland - Palatinate, Baden - Württemberg, the ultimate southern Dutch South Limburg, Liège, Belgian Luxembourg, Luxembourg and Alsace - Lorraine.

Hi, how can I help? :lol:

Dad has ancestors from the bolded areas, among others...

K13:
Mixed Mode Population Sharing:
# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance

1 53.5% Norwegian + 46.5% North_Italian @ 1.58
2 59.8% Norwegian + 40.2% Tuscan @ 1.71
3 90.5% South_Dutch + 9.5% Italian_Jewish @ 1.71
4 64% North_Dutch + 36% Tuscan @ 1.76
5 57.8% Danish + 42.2% North_Italian @ 1.77
6 57.9% North_Dutch + 42.1% North_Italian @ 1.78
7 89.3% South_Dutch + 10.7% Ashkenazi @ 1.79
8 90.8% South_Dutch + 9.2% Algerian_Jewish @ 1.8
9 84.6% West_German + 15.4% North_Italian @ 1.83

Kellebel
10-08-2019, 09:07 PM
Hi, how can I help? :lol:

Dad has ancestors from the bolded areas, among others...

K13:
Mixed Mode Population Sharing:
# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance

1 53.5% Norwegian + 46.5% North_Italian @ 1.58
2 59.8% Norwegian + 40.2% Tuscan @ 1.71
3 90.5% South_Dutch + 9.5% Italian_Jewish @ 1.71
4 64% North_Dutch + 36% Tuscan @ 1.76
5 57.8% Danish + 42.2% North_Italian @ 1.77
6 57.9% North_Dutch + 42.1% North_Italian @ 1.78
7 89.3% South_Dutch + 10.7% Ashkenazi @ 1.79
8 90.8% South_Dutch + 9.2% Algerian_Jewish @ 1.8
9 84.6% West_German + 15.4% North_Italian @ 1.83

Oh thank you! :biggrin1: What are his other ancestries if you don't mind me asking?

Dewsloth
10-08-2019, 09:22 PM
Oh thank you! :biggrin1: What are his other ancestries if you don't mind me asking?

In decreasing order German>British>Belgian>Ashkenazi. No known Italian or Iberian, although sometimes they pop up in potential mixes.
The Germans (including the Ashkenazi ~10%) are from Hesse (Rheingau/Taunus area that sticks out into R-P), B-W, Bavaria (Aschaffenburg); the Belgians are from Liège and Tirlemont ... although some of their ancestors may have come from Aachen and Belgian Limburg; oh yeah, one family from near Zurich who came over to NA in the early 1700s...

The Brits all arrived in North America between 1620 and 1730, and may include people who are of previous Flemish and/or French descent.

Edward J
10-08-2019, 09:24 PM
My paternal line was from the Rhineland area (Colonial Pennsylvania German AKA Dutch), we also happen to be under J-M172 . My father had fully Eastern German grandmother, so thats where the eastern pull is coming from. Most other ancestry seems to be west German, English, Irish, and Scottish. Father's K13:

1 88.4% North_German + 11.6% Sardinian @ 2.46
2 71.3% Southwest_English + 28.7% Moldavian @ 2.59
3 74% Irish + 26% Bulgarian @ 2.61
4 76.2% Orcadian + 23.8% Bulgarian @ 2.63
5 71.4% Irish + 28.6% Romanian @ 2.68
6 73.8% Orcadian + 26.2% Romanian @ 2.71
7 76.4% Southeast_English + 23.6% Moldavian @ 2.78
8 62.1% Southwest_English + 37.9% Hungarian @ 2.86
9 68.1% Irish + 31.9% Serbian @ 2.87

Kellebel
10-08-2019, 09:27 PM
In decreasing order German>British>Belgian>Ashkenazi. No known Italian or Iberian, although sometimes they pop up in potential mixes.
The Germans (including the Ashkenazi ~10%) are from Hesse (Rheingau/Taunus area that sticks out into R-P), B-W, Bavaria (Aschaffenburg); the Belgians are from Liège and Tirlemont ... although some of their ancestors may have come from Aachen and Belgian Limburg...

The Brits all arrived in North America between 1620 and 1730, and may include people who are of previous Flemish and/or French descent.

Thank you so much! It's interesting to me how Oracle picked out the 10% Jewish and combined the rest into South Dutch.

Dewsloth
10-08-2019, 09:37 PM
Thank you so much! It's interesting to me how Oracle picked out the 10% Jewish and combined the rest into South Dutch.

Yes, even the more modern tools like G25 see him as Belgian (which is a logical midpoint as well as ~10% of his known, real ancestry)


Dad:

Distance to: DewslothDad_scaled
0.01376350 Belgian
0.01382523 French
0.01538859 Swiss_German
0.01603366 French_East
0.02477340 Italian_Aosta_Valley
0.02577523 French_Provence
0.02611134 Swiss_French
0.02699974 German
0.02847689 Austrian
0.03238527 French_Brittany
0.03327316 English_Cornwall
0.03339229 English
0.03499068 Italian_Northeast
0.03559866 Spanish_Penedes
0.03596848 Dutch
0.03726936 Spanish_Barcelones
0.03759875 Spanish_Girona
0.03760511 Scottish
0.03766141 Spanish_Mallorca
0.03859853 Spanish_Catalunya_Central
0.03872111 Orcadian
0.03873642 Spanish_Camp_de_Tarragona
0.03929944 Spanish_Peri-Barcelona
0.03935687 Welsh
0.04010948 Spanish_Lleida
0.04013253 Irish
0.04092146 Italian_Trentino-Alto-Adige
0.04106696 Hungarian
0.04233682 Spanish_Cataluna
0.04274811 Montenegrin
0.04283856 Shetlandic
0.04328487 Croatian
0.04344096 Spanish_Baleares
0.04362770 Spanish_Pirineu
0.04368068 Spanish_Eivissa
0.04377423 Spanish_Terres_de_l'Ebre
0.04386996 Spanish_Castello
0.04410891 Italian_Veneto
0.04423281 Italian_Trentino-Alto-Adige_o
0.04434990 Romanian
0.04435213 Spanish_Cantabria
0.04496517 Spanish_Valencia
0.04501171 Slovenian
0.04541024 Spanish_Alacant
0.04549139 French_South
0.04578130 German_East
0.04598489 Spanish_Aragon
0.04734340 Serbian
0.04740408 Norwegian
0.04805443 Bosnian
0.04814028 Spanish_Menorca
0.04827532 Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon
0.04835000 Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha
0.04862213 Spanish_Soria
0.04905246 Spanish_Navarra
0.04925080 Icelandic
0.04925098 Czech
0.04989941 Spanish_Galicia
0.05041420 Spanish_Andalucia
0.05044170 Portuguese
0.05093978 Italian_Bergamo
0.05122764 Swedish
0.05150198 Spanish_Extremadura
0.05161751 Spanish_Murcia
0.05191339 Bulgarian
0.05198644 Italian_Northeast_o
0.05211857 Spanish_Pais_Vasco
0.05268576 Macedonian
0.05372217 Swiss_Italian
0.05388458 Moldavian
0.05439564 Basque_French
0.05477452 Italian_Liguria
0.05529379 Spanish_Asturias
0.05532056 Italian_Lombardy
0.05896635 Gagauz
0.05914880 Basque_Spanish
0.06005960 Italian_Piedmont
0.06090487 Slovakian
0.06295108 Spanish_La_Rioja
0.06591213 Italian_Tuscany
0.06830908 French_Corsica
0.06984367 Albanian
0.07156816 Polish
0.07239643 Greek
0.07428977 Sorb_Niederlausitz
0.07559953 Italian_Marche
0.07595031 Italian_Umbria
0.07644298 Turkish_Balkans
0.07718248 Spanish_Canarias
0.07758586 Ukrainian
0.08009571 Cossack_Ukrainian
0.08295756 Italian_Lazio
0.08401266 Russian_Voronez
0.08462286 Russian_Orel
0.08607621 French_Corsica_o
0.08657405 Italian_Molise
0.08724560 Russian_Kursk
0.08783662 Italian_Abruzzo
0.08841760 Russian_Smolensk
0.08980841 Sicilian_West

msmarjoribanks
10-09-2019, 04:28 AM
I've noticed this too. For comparison, my mother has 10.97 Eastern Med on K13. Her closest populations according to papertrail:
South Dutch: 7.37
French: 10.33
West German: 8.54

Pretty close to France and on plots she's often placed with French people, but her French ancestry isn't all that much, it doesn't exceed 1/8th of her ancestry and it's mostly northern French, while the French sample surely is a bit more central/southern. I wish they'd update these spreadsheets already.

Interesting!

On K13, my mom is:

North_Atlantic 46.10 Pct
Baltic 26.63 Pct
West_Med 9.37 Pct
West_Asian 7.32 Pct
East_Med 6.19 Pct
Red_Sea -
South_Asian 2.56 Pct
East_Asian -
Siberian -
Amerindian 1.32 Pct
Oceanian 0.37 Pct
Northeast_African 0.07 Pct
Sub-Saharan -

Given that her other ancestries are Swedish, English, and Irish, I've suspected that the heightened E Med is due to Western Germany (about 25% of her ancestry, mostly Rhineland), although she gets some Greek on MyHeritage. The Native American could be real, although I doubt it, no idea about the South Asian.

My dad gets:

Population
North_Atlantic 50.64 Pct
Baltic 21.68 Pct
West_Med 16.05 Pct
West_Asian 7.67 Pct
East_Med -
Red_Sea 2.37 Pct
South_Asian -
East_Asian -
Siberian -
Amerindian 0.84 Pct
Oceanian 0.41 Pct
Northeast_African 0.30 Pct
Sub-Saharan -

He's got some German Swiss, some French, some Dutch (all low), but mostly English and Welsh. His numbers make sense with this.

My mom's K13 oracle-4 is:

North_German + North_German + North_German + West_German @ 2.904693 (in reality it's English, Swedish, Western German, Northern Ireland, which isn't that far off).

Her regular oracle (top result) is:

97% North_German + 3% Lebanese_Druze @ 2.1, which I think is just the North German primary plus slightly higher Asian and W Med. Adding in more W German explains this as much.

tchekitchek
10-09-2019, 10:30 AM
A few month ago in one of the french thread, I discussed the idea that a higher level of east-mediteranean/caucasian like element seems to be higher in eastern France, places like Lorraine, Alsace and even Wallonia, probably south-western Germany too.

I have myself a slightly higher east-med/caucasian level that sometimes pushes me east on calculators. I call this "Lotharingian genetics" in a way because I feel there is a common people in the area between the Rhone and the Rhine.

For example, I've got a relatively high Caucasian (22.08) in MDLP K16.

Oh, and on My True Ancestry, I've got: Frank, Gaul and... Illyrian.

Kellebel
10-09-2019, 01:50 PM
A few month ago in one of the french thread, I discussed the idea that a higher level of east-mediteranean/caucasian like element seems to be higher in eastern France, places like Lorraine, Alsace and even Wallonia, probably south-western Germany too.

I have myself a slightly higher east-med/caucasian level that sometimes pushes me east on calculators. I call this "Lotharingian genetics" in a way because I feel there is a common people in the area between the Rhone and the Rhine.

For example, I've got a relatively high Caucasian (22.08) in MDLP K16.

Oh, and on My True Ancestry, I've got: Frank, Gaul and... Illyrian.

I was already hoping you'd come here, you're one of the persons I thought of when I started this thread. I believe you're even more "southern" than some southeastern French, IIRC? It's astonishing really.

Part of my mom's paternal ancestry comes from the same region as you (about a quarter). Her Caucasian in MDLP K16 is 25.33 (mine 22.33). Pretty high aswell considering how "northern" you'd expect us to be.

JerryS.
10-09-2019, 05:01 PM
wouldn't "100%" west Germans then all have this elevated West Asian and East Med? and wouldn't all these west Germans have a regular oracle of 95% West German + 5% Lebanese?

Ruderico
10-09-2019, 05:21 PM
Perhaps the founding of Roman colonies along the Rhine may have played a role - if settlers were rich in east mediterranean.

They possibly were
https://i.imgur.com/7TlFVVC.png

tchekitchek
10-09-2019, 05:22 PM
I was already hoping you'd come here, you're one of the persons I thought of when I started this thread. I believe you're even more "southern" than some southeastern French, IIRC? It's astonishing really.

Part of my mom's paternal ancestry comes from the same region as you (about a quarter). Her Caucasian in MDLP K16 is 25.33 (mine 22.33). Pretty high aswell considering how "northern" you'd expect us to be.

I'm not more southern than southeastern French, I tend to correspond more or less to Northeastern French. I have very similar results to eastern French (Lorraine, perhaps even down to Lyon) even though something draws me toward the british isles has well (high North Atlantic?)

On K13 my results are quite "expected"

1 French 2.68
2 South_Dutch 5.16
3 West_German 5.74

1 80.3% French + 19.7% Southeast_English @ 1.52
2 84.9% French + 15.1% West_Scottish @ 1.53
3 57.3% West_Scottish + 42.7% North_Italian @ 1.54

Usually I tend to be quite northern/eastern French shifted on PCAs.
The thing is that, in some calculator, I've got a higher east med/caucasian than let's say the average french, which tends to push me toward Croatian/Hungarian (who apparently are very similar to French in the admix) but that's common in the eastern part of France.
Now i do believe there is kind of a common people in "middle francia/lotharingia", in between France and Germany, especially if you look up at the ethymology "Wal" that you can find from Wales to Wallonia to Welsch of Lorraine to Valais (Wallis) canton in Switzerland. I don't know if this ethymology corresponds to an actual people or if it's just cultural.

tchekitchek
10-09-2019, 05:30 PM
wouldn't "100%" west Germans then all have this elevated West Asian and East Med? and wouldn't all these west Germans have a regular oracle of 95% West German + 5% Lebanese?

I don't know, maybe we should look up at West german results... there was that story about Sarmatian horse riders during the middle age; also in southern Netherlands there was a Merovingian burial site where bodies (also horse riders) happened to be J2. Maybe that could account for a higher east med in the region.

JerryS.
10-09-2019, 05:39 PM
I don't know, maybe we should look up at West german results... there was that story about Sarmatian horse riders during the middle age; also in southern Netherlands there was a Merovingian burial site where bodies (also horse riders) happened to be J2. Maybe that could account for a higher east med in the region.

but if we're just speculating, a NPE ~3 generations back would be just as likely for unusual percentages. a North Italian passing off as French or Swiss or even Austrian....

Dewsloth
10-09-2019, 05:50 PM
wouldn't "100%" west Germans then all have this elevated West Asian and East Med? and wouldn't all these west Germans have a regular oracle of 95% West German + 5% Lebanese?

Well, here's Dad...

# Population Percent
1 North_Atlantic 41.92
2 Baltic 20.92
3 West_Med 16.33
4 East_Med 10.84
5 West_Asian 5.88
6 Red_Sea 1.73
7 East_Asian 1.04
8 Northeast_African 0.55
9 Amerindian 0.49
10 Oceanian 0.14
11 Sub-Saharan 0.12
12 South_Asian 0.04

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 West_German 3.5
2 South_Dutch 4.3
3 French 4.66
4 Austrian 9.5
5 Southeast_English 9.74
6 North_German 10.91
7 Southwest_English 11.4
8 East_German 11.64
9 Orcadian 11.97
10 Spanish_Cataluna 12.03
11 North_Dutch 12.1
12 Danish 12.12
13 Portuguese 12.92
14 Irish 12.97
15 Spanish_Galicia 13.12
16 Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon 13.22
17 Hungarian 13.22
18 West_Scottish 13.3
19 Norwegian 14.41
20 Spanish_Murcia 14.47

Ruderico
10-09-2019, 06:02 PM
Well, here's Dad...

# Population Percent
1 North_Atlantic 41.92
2 Baltic 20.92
3 West_Med 16.33
4 East_Med 10.84
5 West_Asian 5.88
6 Red_Sea 1.73
7 East_Asian 1.04
8 Northeast_African 0.55
9 Amerindian 0.49
10 Oceanian 0.14
11 Sub-Saharan 0.12
12 South_Asian 0.04

Interesting, even I have less (12 East Med; 1 West Asia) and I'm Portuguese, albeit not typical. I suspect Roman impact in parts of Western Europe might be underestimated

Dewsloth
10-09-2019, 06:12 PM
Interesting, even I have less (12 East Med; 1 West Asia) and I'm Portuguese, albeit not typical. I suspect Roman impact in parts of Western Europe might be underestimated

Well, don't forget he does have some known Ashkenazi, even if they began mixing with Belgian and German Catholics 5-6 generations back ;)
But if we didn't know that far back, we might be scratching our heads, too.

In general, West Germans cluster near East French, Belgians, Swiss Germans and the epicenter of "French" in the plot below. French and German both cover large areas of the plot, and there is quite a bit of overlap.

https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?18477-European-PCA-and-beyond&p=609014#post609014

Ruderico
10-09-2019, 06:19 PM
Well, don't forget he does have some known Ashkenazi, even if they began mixing with Belgian and German Catholics 5-6 generations back ;)
But if we didn't know that far back, we might be scratching our heads, too.

In general, West Germans cluster near East French, Belgians, Swiss Germans and the epicenter of "French" in the plot below. French and German both cover large areas of the plot, and there is quite a bit of overlap.

https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?18477-European-PCA-and-beyond&p=609014#post609014

That's a lot of generations, the Ashkhenazi is already pretty distant. The K13 West German reference still has 8.54 East Med and 6.85 West Asian, if you add both the total isn't too different from your dad's. Either way, K13 is a rather outdated tool at this point.

About the plots in your link, careful that those are tsne rather than pca plots, so you can't read them like pcas

Pylsteen
10-09-2019, 06:25 PM
I am closest to West German and South Dutch on the K13; I get 6.74 West Asian, 6.25 East Med. Slightly more than my mother who gets 4.28 West Asian, 4.88 East Med (but also 3.11 Red Sea, which I lack), and somewhat lower than my 1/4 Jewish paternal grandmother (who gets 8.83 West Asian, 8.88 East Med, 3.02 Red Sea).

tchekitchek
10-09-2019, 06:27 PM
Well, here's Dad...

# Population Percent
1 North_Atlantic 41.92
2 Baltic 20.92
3 West_Med 16.33
4 East_Med 10.84
5 West_Asian 5.88
6 Red_Sea 1.73

I've got:

1 North_Atlantic 44.72
2 West_Med 17.98
3 Baltic 17.66
4 East_Med 9.78
5 West_Asian 5.43
6 Red_Sea 1.83

so it's pretty similar. Is he from the Aachen area or maybe around Palatinat?

Kellebel
10-09-2019, 06:40 PM
Interesting, even I have less (12 East Med; 1 West Asia) and I'm Portuguese, albeit not typical. I suspect Roman impact in parts of Western Europe might be underestimated

That's what I suspect aswell - and wasn't that the conclusion of one of the more recent papers about southeastern England aswell?

A large part of my mom's heritage comes from villages that were once situated directly along Roman roads. Her East Med on K13 is 10.97 and her West Asian is 5.80.

JerryS.
10-09-2019, 06:46 PM
That's what I suspect aswell - and wasn't that the conclusion of one of the more recent papers about southeastern England aswell?

A large part of my mom's heritage comes from villages that were once situated directly along Roman roads. Her East Med on K13 is 10.97 and her West Asian is 5.80.

such holder overs from the Roman era 1,700 year ago would be unlikely considering the subsequent Scandinavian and north Germanic occupations. 10+ east med just seems way too high to me for NW European that has no ancestry from the east med. if her west Asian was higher I'd even suspect a Jewish relative.

Ruderico
10-09-2019, 07:05 PM
such holder overs from the Roman era 1,700 year ago would be unlikely considering the subsequent Scandinavian and north Germanic occupations. 10+ east med just seems way too high to me for NW European that has no ancestry from the east med. if her west Asian was higher I'd even suspect a Jewish relative.

Not necessarily, since we don't know neither the extent of Roman colonisation of the region, their areas of origin (not all Roman citizens were from Italy), nor the rate of replacement of the incoming Scandinavian-like Germanic migrants. As I said, I suspect Roman impact might be underestimated, much like the subsequent Germanic migrations if those Scandinavian-like were the norm

Finn
10-09-2019, 07:20 PM
just so I am understanding things.... you can have a Y haplogroup from the Middle East in Norway but show virtually no Middle Eastern ancestry if the introduction of such was line was 6 generations (~150 years) ago.

Yep I have E-V22 with a typical NW Germanic auDNA.

E-V22 is at least since the 18th century in the family (tested by geneticist Larmuseau).

JerryS.
10-09-2019, 07:21 PM
Not necessarily, since we don't know neither the extent of Roman colonisation of the region, their areas of origin (not all Roman citizens were from Italy), nor the rate of replacement of the incoming Scandinavian-like Germanic migrants. As I said, I suspect Roman impact might be underestimated, much like the subsequent Germanic migrations if those Scandinavian-like were the norm

I agree but with all this genetic testing for over 10 years now open to the public, wouldn't such an enclave be discovered by now? I still think the 10+ East_Med is exceptionally high for a NW European with no recent [~3-4 generations past] ancestry from that region.

Chnodomar
10-09-2019, 07:25 PM
People really shouldn't mix up similar/same sounding ancestry components from different tests. They often mean wildly different things.

In K13, for example, a slightly higher amount of East Med could mean anything from a higher amount of EEF ancestry (the Neolithic farmer from Stuttgart gets 29% East Med, Ötzi 25%) to Jewish ancestry. Most likely simply because there are just 13 components and so some ancestry components that are related but actually not that close get lumped together, simply because there is no better fitting component.

And for comparison even the Hinxton5 Anglo-Saxon gets 4,4% of East Med in K13, Danes 3,6%, North Germans 4,2%, East Germans get 6,4%, if you go further east Russia_Smolensk gets 3,8%. None of these are places with much "exotic" or Roman-connected ancestry.

Besides, these are averages and obviously averages are made up of multiple "outliers" in both directions. So 10% East Med in itself would be really unspectacular for any individual Central-NW European. In all likelihood that's simply mostly heightened local Celtic (I guess you could call it "Roman" in some way since they were mostly Romanised by that time) ancestry for western Germans or eastern French.

Ruderico
10-09-2019, 07:32 PM
I agree but with all this genetic testing for over 10 years now open to the public, wouldn't such an enclave be discovered by now? I still think the 10+ East_Med is exceptionally high for a NW European with no recent [~3-4 generations past] ancestry from that region.

Not all NW Europeans are the same :) I mean, this sort of "east Med" signal in the area isn't a new discovery, it has been discussed many times here on this forum. However, until there's a study on this particular region focusing on its ancestral origins, including Roman impact (and we're just getting Roman DNA now), we can't really be certain of anything because we're really just using an old and very limited PCA. Maybe one day we'll have extensive Roman Era DNA form this area, and well be understand what really happened.

In the meanwhile, I suggest going over to G25 and making IA/Roman Era models with contemporary samples, instead of using K13/K15

Kellebel
10-09-2019, 08:48 PM
People really shouldn't mix up similar/same sounding ancestry components from different tests. They often mean wildly different things.

In K13, for example, a slightly higher amount of East Med could mean anything from a higher amount of EEF ancestry (the Neolithic farmer from Stuttgart gets 29% East Med, Ötzi 25%) to Jewish ancestry. Most likely simply because there are just 13 components and so some ancestry components that are related but actually not that close get lumped together, simply because there is no better fitting component.

And for comparison even the Hinxton5 Anglo-Saxon gets 4,4% of East Med in K13, Danes 3,6%, North Germans 4,2%, East Germans get 6,4%, if you go further east Russia_Smolensk gets 3,8%. None of these are places with much "exotic" or Roman-connected ancestry.

Besides, these are averages and obviously averages are made up of multiple "outliers" in both directions. So 10% East Med in itself would be really unspectacular for any individual Central-NW European. In all likelihood that's simply mostly heightened local Celtic (I guess you could call it "Roman" in some way since they were mostly Romanised by that time) ancestry for western Germans or eastern French.

I wish there were more Hallstatt/La Tène samples out there, I'd love to see their genetic makeup. I only know of one Hallstatt sample. Hopefully there will be more in the (preferably near) future.

Ruderico
10-09-2019, 08:54 PM
I wish there were more Hallstatt/La Tène samples out there, I'd love to see their genetic makeup. I only know of one Hallstatt sample. Hopefully there will be more in the (preferably near) future.

Me too, but DA111 should be fairly representative of them, from what I have been told. I generally include it, as swell as Iberia_North_IA (for more west-shifted samples), as a pre-Roman proxy for continental western Europe LBA/IA models

Chnodomar
10-09-2019, 09:28 PM
Me too, but DA111 should be fairly representative of them, from what I have been told. I generally include it, as swell as Iberia_North_IA (for more west-shifted samples), as a pre-Roman proxy for continental western Europe LBA/IA models

The next best thing chronologically, at least for the southern German area is probably the Tumulus culture sample RISE471 from Untermeitingen, western Bavaria, dating to the middle to late first millenia BC (MBA). He clusters with modern French apparently, for what it's worth. He's the black dot on the PCA in this link: https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B9o3EYTdM8lQdW5qTEVRRzluUG8/view
From the comment section at Eurogenes (http://polishgenes.blogspot.com/2016/02/pca-of-rise595-rise596-and-rise598.html).

There is also a pre-Germanic (3rd century or so) sample from Bavaria in the Bajuwarii study who clusters with Iberians. But really, that sample could be about anything (there wasn't much archaeological context, if I remember correctly) and I guess he's most likely a Hispanic auxiliary. As usual, we need more samples.

msmarjoribanks
10-09-2019, 10:01 PM
wouldn't "100%" west Germans then all have this elevated West Asian and East Med? and wouldn't all these west Germans have a regular oracle of 95% West German + 5% Lebanese?

Western Germany does have elevated E Med if you look at the K13 spreadsheet: 8.54% E Med. This is in comparison with Northern Germany's 4.24%, and Eastern Germany's 6.42%.

French is higher with 10.33%.

South Dutch has 7.37%.

So that's all built into the model.

I'm not sure I trust the sampling or the component names at all (and I agree the calculators are outdated), but someone with around 8-9% E Med wouldn't get 95% W German + 5% Lebanese for that particular reason, because the E Med fits the W German profile the calculator uses.

Dewsloth
10-09-2019, 10:01 PM
The next best thing chronologically, at least for the southern German area is probably the Tumulus culture sample RISE471 from Untermeitingen, western Bavaria, dating to the middle to late first millenia BC (MBA). He clusters with modern French apparently, for what it's worth. He's the black dot on the PCA in this link: https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B9o3EYTdM8lQdW5qTEVRRzluUG8/view
From the comment section at Eurogenes (http://polishgenes.blogspot.com/2016/02/pca-of-rise595-rise596-and-rise598.html).

There is also a pre-Germanic (3rd century or so) sample from Bavaria in the Bajuwarii study who clusters with Iberians. But really, that sample could be about anything (there wasn't much archaeological context, if I remember correctly) and I guess he's most likely a Hispanic auxiliary. As usual, we need more samples.

Cant find him in Global 25? :(

Kellebel
10-13-2019, 07:29 PM
Not all NW Europeans are the same :) I mean, this sort of "east Med" signal in the area isn't a new discovery, it has been discussed many times here on this forum. However, until there's a study on this particular region focusing on its ancestral origins, including Roman impact (and we're just getting Roman DNA now), we can't really be certain of anything because we're really just using an old and very limited PCA. Maybe one day we'll have extensive Roman Era DNA form this area, and well be understand what really happened.

In the meanwhile, I suggest going over to G25 and making IA/Roman Era models with contemporary samples, instead of using K13/K15

I've seen a lot of posts about G25 here. How does it compare to GedMatch? Is it more reliable/accurate?

Ruderico
10-13-2019, 07:31 PM
I've seen a lot of posts about G25 here. How does it compare to GedMatch? Is it more reliable/accurate?

Of course, keep in mind that the Eurogenes "calculators" (PCA) and G25 were done by the same person, but the ones in Gedmatch are like 6 or 7 years old and the author has completely stopped using them ever since he developed G25

JerryS.
10-13-2019, 08:20 PM
I've seen a lot of posts about G25 here. How does it compare to GedMatch? Is it more reliable/accurate?

use all the calculators available on GEDmatch not just Eurogenes. there should be some repeated groups and percentages that show regularly for most models used depending on the bias of any particular model. take all the results with a grain of salt because they can be close, to spot on, to way off depending on the model.

Kellebel
10-22-2019, 07:07 PM
Okay, so obviously we really need more samples to even try to give an answer to this, but I was thinking about this all and I came up with the following theory. Excuse me for my ignorance or perhaps stating the obvious - you need to know that my knowledge of pre-Greek/Roman history is very - and I mean VERY limited.

Would it be possible that the southeastern influence would have been an ongoing phenomenon, a bit like how the North African seems to have been in Iberia? And that perhaps the "considerable Mediterranean influence" (I'm quoting Wikipedia here) in the La Tène culture wasn't limited to materials, but included even some genetic influence? A bit how the Neolithic transition turned out to be? Or am I way off here?

Seeing the clinal continuity in the region, I'm inclined to think this may be a bit more ancient than for example just a Roman influence (although the latter may have enhanced it all) and that it has been ongoing for a while - a bit of a continuum both geographically and chronologically. Don't ask me why I have this feeling though, because like I said, I'm far from being well versed on the matter. Just giving it some thoughts.

mihaitzateo
10-27-2019, 05:55 PM
A thing to mention is the troubled history of the area from near Rhine, especially of Netherlands.
They have been part of the Roman Empire, Frankish Empire, Austro-Hungarian Empire.
Netherlands have also been under Spanish rule. Under French rule, is well known that it was.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Netherlands_in_the_Roman_era
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Netherlands#Frankish_dominance_and_ incorporation_into_the_Holy_Roman_Empire
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Habsburg_Netherlands
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_Netherlands
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burgundian_Netherlands

mihaitzateo
10-27-2019, 06:03 PM
A question to the people here, that are mainly from Netherlands and/or Germany:
Are you scoring North Sea or Scandinavian admixture?
North Sea is shown on Gedmatch K15, as I understand.

JerryS.
10-27-2019, 08:35 PM
should Germany be divided genetically? Italy is divided by North and South, Greece is divided by Mainland and Islands, all because of genetic influence being more substantial in one region than the other. So, how about Germany? North has a Scandinavian influence that doesn't seem prevalent in the south and the south has a Mediterranean cline [based on the subject matter presented here] that isn't prevalent in the north. then one must ask where does Switzerland fit in?

spruithean
10-27-2019, 09:10 PM
A question to the people here, that are mainly from Netherlands and/or Germany:
Are you scoring North Sea or Scandinavian admixture?
North Sea is shown on Gedmatch K15, as I understand.

I'm half-Dutch if we are being technical, North Sea is my highest result in K15 followed by Atlantic and Baltic. In most oracles (not just K15) I get some Scandinavian populations in my population approximations. My maternal cousins who are fully Dutch are split in two groups, my Zuid-Holland relatives show as less "Scandinavian-like" and more Southern while my Groningen relatives are quite a bit more Scandinavian-like. Not surprising considering the geography and the likely routes of geneflow.


should Germany be divided genetically? Italy is divided by North and South, Greece is divided by Mainland and Islands, all because of genetic influence being more substantial in one region than the other. So, how about Germany? North has a Scandinavian influence that doesn't seem prevalent in the south and the south has a Mediterranean cline [based on the subject matter presented here] that isn't prevalent in the north. then one must ask where does Switzerland fit in?

Switzerland is probably a patchwork that reflects it's history and geography (between France, Germany and Italy).

Hayden
10-29-2019, 06:23 PM
Thanks OP, this also interests me as someone who's y is J2b1/M205. My fatherline traces back to a Simon Schneider who, based on Prussian records, was a Lutheran b.1595 d.1655 in Oberdiebach, a village across the Rhine from Lorch. My family is fortunate that we can confirm our y-dna line back to his grandson (Jeremias) through a y match with a distant cousin of ours that (also) still shares the surname. It will continue to be an interesting curiosity to ponder how/when the haplogroup arrived there.

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/48980887783_0994580b0a_c.jpg

Kellebel
11-16-2019, 03:12 AM
I'm thinking of getting my G25 coordinates very soon.. The new Roman study is kinda pushing me over the edge to do so, hoping it'll shine some light on this topic's issue. In the meanwhile, did any of you guys already get a chance to work with the new Roman samples on G25? If so, I'd love to see your results, hoping to see what I may be expecting from my mom. Thank you in advance!

Finn
11-16-2019, 08:26 AM
should Germany be divided genetically? Italy is divided by North and South, Greece is divided by Mainland and Islands, all because of genetic influence being more substantial in one region than the other. So, how about Germany? North has a Scandinavian influence that doesn't seem prevalent in the south and the south has a Mediterranean cline [based on the subject matter presented here] that isn't prevalent in the north. then one must ask where does Switzerland fit in?

There is no unity in Germany at all indeed. There are regional difference. NW, W, SW, SE, NE ;)

And they cross the border in many respects NE Dutch is close to NW Germany (North German Plain) and South Dutch to West/SW Germany (Rhineland).

RVBLAKE
11-16-2019, 10:57 AM
Yes...Lukasz pinned me in Southwest Germany in the K36 Full Report which he offered some time ago. Gedmatch K15 consistently puts North Sea as my primary category, with South Dutch as Single Population. Ph2ter's Celtic/Germanic report spots me in the confluence between SW German/South Dutch/NE French.

JerryS.
11-16-2019, 12:58 PM
There is no unity in Germany at all indeed. There are regional difference. NW, W, SW, SE, NE ;)

And they cross the border in many respects NE Dutch is close to NW Germany (North German Plain) and South Dutch to West/SW Germany (Rhineland).

please don't take this the wrong way, but I don't see much difference between Dutch anything and Western, or NW Germany other than a political border. maybe eastern or southeastern Germany near Poland or Austria where influences from the Eastern Slavs or Balkans starts showing measurable and regularly repeated differences.

Finn
11-16-2019, 01:02 PM
please don't take this the wrong way, but I don't see much difference between Dutch anything and Western, or NW Germany other than a political border. maybe eastern or southeastern Germany near Poland or Austria where influences from the Eastern Slavs or Balkans starts showing measurable and regularly repeated differences.


I don't see much difference between Niedersachsen/Bremen and NE Dutch not in genetics at least. The differences between Bremen and Groningen are a lott smaller than between Bremen and Dusseldorf let alone Munich.

My NMonte K36 done by Lukasz

https://www.mupload.nl/img/4yu81ezntin1l.04.25.png

Kellebel
11-03-2020, 12:32 AM
I was following the recently opened thread about Celts being North-Italian-like and couldn't help but notice the remarks about possible (but probably no) Roman influence. It had me thinking about this subject and wondering all over again where this East Mediterranean signal could come from. I've been playing around with a couple of IA/MA models for some time and was wondering..

What would pre-bottleneck Ashkenazi Jews look like genetically? Sephardi Jews perhaps? Is/are there (a) sample(s) that could be used as a proxy for pre-bottleneck Jews?

Sorry, I didn't know where to ask this without derailing another thread.

Kellebel
11-03-2020, 12:40 AM
is it possible that there is some "unofficial" Italian in your mom's line? Ashkenazi would show as just that I would think.

Turns out you were somewhat right! Although not unofficial, but previously unknown Italian was found in the meantime (Palermitano to be more precise). Still not enough to explain all of the East Med she gets though. :noidea: So I'm still inclined to think that it's something local.

jstephan
11-03-2020, 01:01 AM
I was following the recently opened thread about Celts being North-Italian-like and couldn't help but notice the remarks about possible (but probably no) Roman influence. It had me thinking about this subject and wondering all over again where this East Mediterranean signal could come from. I've been playing around with a couple of IA/MA models for some time and was wondering..

What would pre-bottleneck Ashkenazi Jews look like genetically? Sephardi Jews perhaps? Is/are there (a) sample(s) that could be used as a proxy for pre-bottleneck Jews?

Sorry, I didn't know where to ask this without derailing another thread.

I got many experts of the forum affirming to me that Romans didn't leave much trace in ancient Gaul and others northern parts of the empire, but it remains unbelievable to me for such a powerful and long-lasting empire.

Kellebel
11-03-2020, 01:18 AM
I got many experts of the forum affirming to me that Romans didn't leave much trace in ancient Gaul and others northern parts of the empire, but it remains unbelievable to me for such a powerful and long-lasting empire.

I saw your yo-yo theory and that was exactly what I have been thinking aswell. But then again, they come up with examples like the Iberian Roman Period and Medieval Germany (excluding the outlier(s)) and indeed, the East Med signal wasn't there yet, but it is today.. Hence why I wanted to look into the Jewish theory, atleast for the Rhine region.

If only those Ancestra data would come through already. So frustrating!

JMcB
11-03-2020, 03:31 AM
I was following the recently opened thread about Celts being North-Italian-like and couldn't help but notice the remarks about possible (but probably no) Roman influence. It had me thinking about this subject and wondering all over again where this East Mediterranean signal could come from. I've been playing around with a couple of IA/MA models for some time and was wondering..

What would pre-bottleneck Ashkenazi Jews look like genetically? Sephardi Jews perhaps? Is/are there (a) sample(s) that could be used as a proxy for pre-bottleneck Jews?

Sorry, I didn't know where to ask this without derailing another thread.


You might try asking Agamemnon or Erik186 on Erik’s long running thread:

https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?14484-Could-Western-Jews-(Ash-and-Seph-)-descend-from-Aegeans-and-Levantine-admixture&p=409113&viewfull=1#post409113

Kellebel
11-03-2020, 04:16 AM
You might try asking Agamemnon or Erik186 on Erik’s long running thread:

https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?14484-Could-Western-Jews-(Ash-and-Seph-)-descend-from-Aegeans-and-Levantine-admixture&p=409113&viewfull=1#post409113

Thank you, I just posted there!

leorcooper19
11-03-2020, 04:30 AM
What would pre-bottleneck Ashkenazi Jews look like genetically? Sephardi Jews perhaps? Is/are there (a) sample(s) that could be used as a proxy for pre-bottleneck Jews?.

First off, I think this is a really important debate and question. Thanks for bringing it up.

Personally, I would rethink your approach re "Ashkenazi Jewish should show up in 23andMe because it's so clearly identifiable as long as it's post-bottleneck." I think that because:
1) The "bottleneck" is really just one possible explanation for the significant evidence for genetic drift that Ashkenazim have experienced. In my opinion, the majority of this was caused by two critical founder effects: the first being the few Jews that actually migrated into the area of modern Germany/Austria and the second being the crossing of the two streams/proto-communities of Bney hes and Bney khes. The date of the crossing of those streams perfectly coincides with the estimated 600-800 ybp range from previous studies. Basically, if you were lucky enough to participate in that blending, you and your communities' genes would go on to make up over 80% of modern Ashkenazi genomes. While true bottlenecks likely happened, there is no historical evidence for a single community of only 350 people living c. 600-800 ybp from whom all Ashkenazim descend.
2) The thought that Ashkenazi DNA should stand out even after generations is quite easily testable as long as you have access to the relevant samples. I administer a project on FTDNA for my lineage of E-Y14891, in which there are many ethnic Germans with distant Jewish ancestry (by virtue of being in the lineage). For those who do not score like normal Germans, trace Levant or Northwest Asian is MUCH more common than trace Ashkenazi. This is likely because Ashkenazim's more northern components will prefer to join in with their other, usually major northern component than stick in Ashkenazi. That leaves the more southern components to choose a reference in West Asia. That said, this is based off MyOrigins 2.0 and 3.0, not 23andMe.
3) Ashkenazim were very connected to the rest of the Jewish world so any entrances from Sephardim, Italqim, Romaniotim, or Mizrahim could easily bring in new Levantine or NWA segments that aren't in any AJ reference.

To your question: when trying to model early Ashkenazi Jews before mixing with Knaanim (Slavic-speaking Jews that were in Eastern Europe before Ashkenazim), I cherry pick the German Jewish samples with the least about of Slavic-like DNA. Here's my reference for that:
Ashkenazi_OG:Ashk_DE_DE_1,0.094473,0.142174,-0.021496,-0.057171,0.01231,-0.023427,0.003055,-0.003923,0.010226,0.01877,0.000812,-0.001199,0.003271,-0.001101,-0.0057,0.012861,0.013038,-0.003167,0.001257,0.003377,-0.00025,-0.006925,-0.00456,0.000723,-0.003952
Ashkenazi_OG:Ashk_DE_DE_4,0.101303,0.148267,-0.019233,-0.049419,0.008925,-0.020359,0,0,0.014112,0.021686,0.003897,-0.002098,0.003419,-0.005092,-0.004886,0.000796,-0.003129,0.004941,0.002891,0.003377,0.002246,0.001 36,-0.005916,-0.001205,-0.000718
Ashkenazi_OG:Ashk_DE_DE_6,0.091058,0.142174,-0.015085,-0.050065,0.010156,-0.020638,-0.00188,-0.003923,0.00634,0.021504,0.002273,0.001349,0.0004 46,-0.006331,-0.005972,0.010209,0.016689,-0.005701,-0.006034,0.003252,-0.003868,-0.005441,0.002465,0.003133,0.00491

FYI, this reference itself is about 1/4 Alsatian-like.

To focus in on the earlier Jews, very recently I've used a simulated Italo-Romaniote_OG sample as well as certain aDNA samples from Antonio et al. 2019 that seem like early Western Jews. Here they are:
Italo-Romaniote_OG_4.0:Romaniote3,0.095611,0.146236,-0.028284,-0.069122,0.005539,-0.02259,-0.005405,-0.004384,0.007567,0.015672,0.007632,0.004346,0.002 676,0.003441,-0.009908,-0.013392,-0.013299,-0.003674,0.000377,-0.005253,-0.006489,0.002597,0.006286,0.00253,-0.000599
Italo-Romaniote_OG_4.0:Italian_Jew:ItalyJew5,0.091058,0. 147252,-0.032809,-0.065892,0.00677,-0.023985,-0.002115,-0.003,0.011658,0.016948,0.004872,0.001199,0.001784 ,0.003303,-0.010858,-0.013524,-0.011735,-0.003294,-0.001257,-0.010005,-0.005865,0.005193,0.000863,0.002169,0.002994
Italo-Romaniote_OG_4.0:Romaniote7,0.088782,0.14319,-0.032432,-0.063954,-0.00277,-0.016733,-0.006815,-0.005538,0.007567,0.014214,0.003573,0.002997,-0.004906,0.005367,-0.008143,-0.016441,-0.014994,-0.004307,0.006536,-0.007754,-0.001373,0.002473,0.001972,-0.005302,0.007065

Roman_Jew_OG?:RMPR130,0.103579,0.150298,-0.037335,-0.063308,-0.001846,-0.021753,0.00047,-0.010846,0.003681,0.030069,0.008444,-0.001948,-0.003419,-0.002064,-0.00285,-0.009546,0.002868,0.002534,-0.000628,-0.000875,0.004118,0.001855,-0.013557,-0.001325,-0.00455
Roman_Jew_OG?:RMPR38,0.102441,0.157407,-0.0445,-0.08075,-0.017542,-0.031236,-0.00423,-0.008538,-0.013908,0.016766,0.002598,-0.001049,-0.003271,0.006744,-0.007736,-0.010475,-0.011083,0.001014,0.004902,-0.004252,0.001497,0.003462,-0.001232,-0.00012,-0.001796

Let me know what you can find!

sktibo
11-03-2020, 04:32 AM
I got many experts of the forum affirming to me that Romans didn't leave much trace in ancient Gaul and others northern parts of the empire, but it remains unbelievable to me for such a powerful and long-lasting empire.

I'm inclined to believe that's wishful thinking, as people often want to affirm indigeneity or deep roots to a place. When we ask questions about Anglo Saxons in England or Romans in France, I think we're going to be confronted by those who would try to disprove that in favor of a nativist view.
Now that said, I cannot disprove the nativist view. I just find it unlikely, personally.

Kellebel
11-03-2020, 04:35 AM
First off, I think this is a really important debate and question. Thanks for bringing it up.

Personally, I would rethink your approach re "Ashkenazi Jewish should show up in 23andMe because it's so clearly identifiable as long as it's post-bottleneck." I think that because:
1) The "bottleneck" is really just one possible explanation for the significant evidence for genetic drift that Ashkenazim have experienced. In my opinion, the majority of this was caused by two critical founder effects: the first being the few Jews that actually migrated into the area of modern Germany/Austria and the second being the crossing of the two streams/proto-communities of Bney hes and Bney khes. The date of the crossing of those streams perfectly coincides with the estimated 600-800 ybp range from previous studies. Basically, if you were lucky enough to participate in that blending, you and your communities' genes would go on to make up over 80% of modern Ashkenazi genomes. While true bottlenecks likely happened, there is no historical evidence for a single community of only 350 people living c. 600-800 ybp from whom all Ashkenazim descend.
2) The thought that Ashkenazi DNA should stand out even after generations is quite easily testable as long as you have access to the relevant samples. I administer a project on FTDNA for my lineage of E-Y14891, in which there are many ethnic Germans with distant Jewish ancestry (by virtue of being in the lineage). For those who do not score like normal Germans, trace Levant or Northwest Asian is MUCH more common than trace Ashkenazi. This is likely because Ashkenazim's more northern components will prefer to join in with their other, usually major northern component than stick in Ashkenazi. That leaves the more southern components to choose a reference in West Asia. That said, this is based off MyOrigins 2.0 and 3.0, not 23andMe.
3) Ashkenazim were very connected to the rest of the Jewish world so any entrances from Sephardim, Italqim, Romaniotim, or Mizrahim could easily bring in new Levantine or NWA segments that aren't in any AJ reference.

To your question: when trying to model early Ashkenazi Jews before mixing with Knaanim (Slavic-speaking Jews that were in Eastern Europe before Ashkenazim), I cherry pick the German Jewish samples with the least about of Slavic-like DNA. Here's my reference for that:
Ashkenazi_OG:Ashk_DE_DE_1,0.094473,0.142174,-0.021496,-0.057171,0.01231,-0.023427,0.003055,-0.003923,0.010226,0.01877,0.000812,-0.001199,0.003271,-0.001101,-0.0057,0.012861,0.013038,-0.003167,0.001257,0.003377,-0.00025,-0.006925,-0.00456,0.000723,-0.003952
Ashkenazi_OG:Ashk_DE_DE_4,0.101303,0.148267,-0.019233,-0.049419,0.008925,-0.020359,0,0,0.014112,0.021686,0.003897,-0.002098,0.003419,-0.005092,-0.004886,0.000796,-0.003129,0.004941,0.002891,0.003377,0.002246,0.001 36,-0.005916,-0.001205,-0.000718
Ashkenazi_OG:Ashk_DE_DE_6,0.091058,0.142174,-0.015085,-0.050065,0.010156,-0.020638,-0.00188,-0.003923,0.00634,0.021504,0.002273,0.001349,0.0004 46,-0.006331,-0.005972,0.010209,0.016689,-0.005701,-0.006034,0.003252,-0.003868,-0.005441,0.002465,0.003133,0.00491

FYI, this reference itself is about 1/4 Alsatian-like.

To focus in on the earlier Jews, very recently I've used a simulated Italo-Romaniote_OG sample as well as certain aDNA samples from Antonio et al. 2019 that seem like early Western Jews. Here they are:
Italo-Romaniote_OG_4.0:Romaniote3,0.095611,0.146236,-0.028284,-0.069122,0.005539,-0.02259,-0.005405,-0.004384,0.007567,0.015672,0.007632,0.004346,0.002 676,0.003441,-0.009908,-0.013392,-0.013299,-0.003674,0.000377,-0.005253,-0.006489,0.002597,0.006286,0.00253,-0.000599
Italo-Romaniote_OG_4.0:Italian_Jew:ItalyJew5,0.091058,0. 147252,-0.032809,-0.065892,0.00677,-0.023985,-0.002115,-0.003,0.011658,0.016948,0.004872,0.001199,0.001784 ,0.003303,-0.010858,-0.013524,-0.011735,-0.003294,-0.001257,-0.010005,-0.005865,0.005193,0.000863,0.002169,0.002994
Italo-Romaniote_OG_4.0:Romaniote7,0.088782,0.14319,-0.032432,-0.063954,-0.00277,-0.016733,-0.006815,-0.005538,0.007567,0.014214,0.003573,0.002997,-0.004906,0.005367,-0.008143,-0.016441,-0.014994,-0.004307,0.006536,-0.007754,-0.001373,0.002473,0.001972,-0.005302,0.007065

Roman_Jew_OG?:RMPR130,0.103579,0.150298,-0.037335,-0.063308,-0.001846,-0.021753,0.00047,-0.010846,0.003681,0.030069,0.008444,-0.001948,-0.003419,-0.002064,-0.00285,-0.009546,0.002868,0.002534,-0.000628,-0.000875,0.004118,0.001855,-0.013557,-0.001325,-0.00455
Roman_Jew_OG?:RMPR38,0.102441,0.157407,-0.0445,-0.08075,-0.017542,-0.031236,-0.00423,-0.008538,-0.013908,0.016766,0.002598,-0.001049,-0.003271,0.006744,-0.007736,-0.010475,-0.011083,0.001014,0.004902,-0.004252,0.001497,0.003462,-0.001232,-0.00012,-0.001796

Let me know what you can find!

Thank you SO much for that amazing reply and information, I appreciate it a lot! It's 05:30 AM over here and I should really get some sleep, but I'll be playing around with these data tomorrow as soon as I'll have the time to do so! Again, thank youuu!!

Finn
11-03-2020, 07:08 AM
I'm inclined to believe that's wishful thinking, as people often want to affirm indigeneity or deep roots to a place. When we ask questions about Anglo Saxons in England or Romans in France, I think we're going to be confronted by those who would try to disprove that in favor of a nativist view.
Now that said, I cannot disprove the nativist view. I just find it unlikely, personally.

I guess that in my case I'm inclined to believe that I sincere have deep roots in the North Dutch area. I'm simply a stocky North Dutch. I know it is more often stated by others in other cases. And that it is often kind of fake.
But I state this because this it's due to a combination of knowledge of my ancestry in combination with the specific population development/ history of the North Dutch area.
First of all, my paper trail (goes unto the 17 th century) and people that all have a (significant) impact on my auDNA are from a small area the outmost North (Groningen/Drenthe/ further away in time Friesland).
When you look at this population it are heirs of the North Sea amalgam (mainly Saxons) of migration time combined with a LNBA 'substrate'. Afterwards we see mainly an immigration of NW German neighbors (Ost-Friesland, Emsland, Munsterland/ Westfalia) to the clay districts/ nearest to the North Sea because of the rich prosperous agriculture. That's all.
Afterwards no serious breaks (devastating developments) or immigrations like in Germany with the thirty years war for example.
So of course the genepool has developed, has muted during the years, but I'm inclined to think that it's basically (not 100% but let's say 90%) genetically not different from the (early) middle ages!! Feel free to debunk this...

jstephan
11-03-2020, 09:47 AM
I'm inclined to believe that's wishful thinking, as people often want to affirm indigeneity or deep roots to a place. When we ask questions about Anglo Saxons in England or Romans in France, I think we're going to be confronted by those who would try to disprove that in favor of a nativist view.
Now that said, I cannot disprove the nativist view. I just find it unlikely, personally.

True, but in our case, it's like destroying a myth deeply rooted in our culture, well at least the myth (or not) of "our ancestors the Gauls" is still alive and will be demystified here soon from what I heard.

Ruderico
11-03-2020, 10:35 AM
True, but in our case, it's like destroying a myth deeply rooted in our culture, well at least the myth (or not) of "our ancestors the Gauls" is still alive and will be demystified here soon from what I heard.

I think there should be a balance, the Gauls will always be your ancestors whether there were subsequent changes or not, and I hope French authorities value and explore that part of your history, but likewise it's best to keep the past in the past. I find some revivalist trends, around here at least, to be rather flawed from a historical/ethnography pov and I'm far from being an expert myself. I can only imagine what professionals feel when they see these.

Finn
11-03-2020, 11:50 AM
I think there should be a balance, the Gauls will always be your ancestors whether there were subsequent changes or not, and I hope French authorities value and explore that part of your history, but likewise it's best to keep the past in the past. I find some revivalist trends, around here at least, to be rather flawed from a historical/ethnography pov and I'm far from being an expert myself. I can only imagine what professionals feel when they see these.

I agree Ruderico, indeed when it get's a 'purist' undertone I pass. On the other side we must not hesitate if the lines of the early middle ages until now are there to recognize that. Around the Viking paper there was some kind of tendency to neglect that (in other no to be accused of 'purism'?)

Kellebel
11-03-2020, 02:43 PM
Let me know what you can find!

Okay, so I have this basic IA/MA model to see towards what direction my mother gets pulled from her main ancestry:


DEU_MA,0.1223596,0.1303939,0.061169,0.048773,0.039 792,0.0199408,0.010975,0.0052151,0.0013295,-0.0024966,-0.003735,0.001109,-0.0091576,-0.0038398,0.0161643,-0.0008352,-0.0133511,0.0032684,0.0041354,0.0040271,0.0060019, 0.0037342,-0.0007273,0.011146,-0.0004429
England_IA,0.1317503,0.1307495,0.0601505,0.0480462 ,0.0350832,0.0201498,0.0048175,0.0036922,0.0042438 ,0.0041915,-0.0044248,0.0057322,-0.0105175,-0.018476,0.0180167,0.0100438,0.001206,-6.33e-05,0.0033312,0.003908,0.0038995,0.000247,-0.0012018,0.0114172,0.0004493
ITA_IA:_Boville_Ernica_IA,0.126344,0.152329,0.0343 18,-0.014535,0.054164,-0.01506,-0.001175,0.005307,0.019634,0.041914,0.005196,0.010 79,-0.011001,-0.005643,0.004479,-0.016441,-0.010822,-0.001394,0.006662,-0.01113,0.007736,0.007172,-0.007641,-0.00241,0.008981
ITA_IA:_Ardea_Latini_IA,0.133173,0.156392,0.0445,-0.00969,0.044008,-0.004462,0.00846,0.003,0.024543,0.044101,-0.002598,0.012289,-0.022448,-0.009634,-0.005429,-0.005834,0.00352,0.003167,0.006034,-0.007379,-0.008859,0.005317,-0.000863,-0.006989,-0.001796
ITA_IA:_Etruscan,0.126913,0.153853,0.034695,-0.014212,0.0417,-0.005299,0.0024675,-0.002769,0.019839,0.0343515,-0.0023545,0.014237,-0.014792,-0.004335,-0.00475,-0.007823,-0.0028035,0.0052575,0.011564,-0.001188,-0.002558,0.003771,-6.15e-05,-0.0004215,-0.002694
ITA_IA:_Prenestini_tribe_IA,0.12862,0.145221,0.047 14,0.005491,0.046162,0.00251,-0.00282,0.002769,0.021475,0.039727,-0.002923,0.012289,-0.021407,-0.016239,0.012622,0.000398,-0.003129,0.003421,0.00176,-0.001251,0.004492,0.003586,-0.00456,-0.003976,0.000239
ITA_IA:_Rome_Latini_IA,0.127482,0.147252,0.033187,-0.016796,0.044008,-0.008646,-0.00376,-0.004846,0.026588,0.052666,-0.002761,0.015137,-0.036719,-0.008533,-0.009093,0.013392,0.016037,-0.004687,0.003897,0.004127,0.00262,-0.00272,0.001972,-0.007712,-0.008742
ITA_IA:_Villanovan,0.12862,0.156392,0.042238,-0.024225,0.052933,-0.008367,-0.001645,-0.005307,0.023725,0.040274,0.006008,0.006894,-0.018285,-0.019405,-0.003529,0.008751,0.025686,0.002914,0.004651,0.004 252,0.00574,0.006059,-0.006286,-0.010604,-0.002515
Iberia_East_IA,0.1244941,0.1489018,0.0564739,0.002 1802,0.0598572,-0.0031725,-0.0036426,0.0044711,0.0299882,0.0468802,-0.0047092,0.0111088,-0.0233585,-0.0145191,0.0078549,0.0056351,0.0067799,0.0016153, 0.0038024,-0.0010318,0.0055682,-9.26e-05,-0.007364,-0.0123961,-0.0011226
GRC:_Minoan_Lassithi,0.1192866,0.170609,-0.0181772,-0.093993,0.0295438,-0.0398256,-0.001316,-0.0034614,0.0103488,0.0598102,0.0029878,0.0153164,-0.0251238,-5.48e-05,-0.0374586,-0.0109518,0.0173934,-0.0012414,0.0088742,-0.0136316,-0.0133764,0.0083836,-0.0050776,-0.0010604,-0.0024428
GRC:_Mycenaean,0.107847,0.1563915,-0.008108,-0.0646808,0.0216962,-0.0271222,-0.0005288,-0.0021345,0.00542,0.047336,0.005521,0.0169352,-0.012785,-0.0006195,-0.0163882,-0.0098118,0.0210245,0.0036108,0.0123188,-0.0039705,-0.0058648,0.0001858,-0.0065935,0.0011448,-0.0007185
GRC:Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2,0.118376,0.158423,-0.009051,-0.0670225,0.0252355,-0.027889,0.001645,-0.005077,0.0049085,0.042552,0.002842,0.01124,-0.016873,0.003578,-0.018526,-0.0157785,0.0035855,0.0003805,0.004588,-0.0126935,-0.008298,0.001546,0.001664,0.0071095,-0.008502
ITA_Rome_Imperial,0.1039821,0.1495156,-0.0235307,-0.0574065,0.0045265,-0.0204055,-0.0011946,-0.0051488,0.0006604,0.0196549,0.0034575,0.0025539,-0.0040602,-0.0014737,-0.0081715,-0.0014474,0.0035992,0.000454,0.0012178,-0.0032854,-0.0025579,0.0020454,-0.0006985,-0.0004845,0.0004141
Levant_Ashkelon_IA2,0.0789173,0.1411587,-0.0600877,-0.1049757,-0.0165157,-0.0365343,-0.0036033,-0.017461,0.0156117,0.011906,0.0060623,-0.007094,0.0225967,-0.003991,-0.010541,0.0114467,0.00339,-0.005574,-0.005447,0.0036683,0.0041593,0.0037097,-0.0047657,-0.007471,0.0026343
Canary_Islands_Guanche,-0.0393828,0.1314096,-0.0023384,-0.0687344,0.0337292,-0.0363672,-0.0299874,0.008261,0.0708878,0.0305428,0.0075674,-0.0059948,0.0182554,-0.0176982,0.0232082,-0.0130468,0.0031814,-0.019206,-0.044321,0.010405,-0.0134762,-0.0377142,0.0232692,-0.0011806,0.0046224


The European IA samples are used to reflect her local ancestry, GRC and Roman Imperial for any possible Greco-Roman influences and eventually Askhelon and Guanche to reflect any other Med-related influence. This is what she gets with the model above:


Target: Ella_scaled
Distance: 1.6003% / 0.01600275
51.6 England_IA
22.2 DEU_MA
18.8 ITA_IA
4.4 GRC
2.4 ITA_Rome_Imperial
0.6 Canary_Islands_Guanche

Compared to her mother, who is very, very, véry close to being 100% local Limburgish/Rhenish and whom my mother normally should resemble as her father came from the same region:


Target: Pao_scaled
Distance: 1.5109% / 0.01510869
45.0 DEU_MA
31.2 England_IA
23.8 ITA_IA

After adding your samples, it clearly prefers the Jewish samples over the GRC, Roman Imperial and Guanche my mother gets in the model above (while her mother's results are unchanged):


DEU_MA,0.1223596,0.1303939,0.061169,0.048773,0.039 792,0.0199408,0.010975,0.0052151,0.0013295,-0.0024966,-0.003735,0.001109,-0.0091576,-0.0038398,0.0161643,-0.0008352,-0.0133511,0.0032684,0.0041354,0.0040271,0.0060019, 0.0037342,-0.0007273,0.011146,-0.0004429
England_IA,0.1317503,0.1307495,0.0601505,0.0480462 ,0.0350832,0.0201498,0.0048175,0.0036922,0.0042438 ,0.0041915,-0.0044248,0.0057322,-0.0105175,-0.018476,0.0180167,0.0100438,0.001206,-6.33e-05,0.0033312,0.003908,0.0038995,0.000247,-0.0012018,0.0114172,0.0004493
ITA_IA:_Boville_Ernica_IA,0.126344,0.152329,0.0343 18,-0.014535,0.054164,-0.01506,-0.001175,0.005307,0.019634,0.041914,0.005196,0.010 79,-0.011001,-0.005643,0.004479,-0.016441,-0.010822,-0.001394,0.006662,-0.01113,0.007736,0.007172,-0.007641,-0.00241,0.008981
ITA_IA:_Ardea_Latini_IA,0.133173,0.156392,0.0445,-0.00969,0.044008,-0.004462,0.00846,0.003,0.024543,0.044101,-0.002598,0.012289,-0.022448,-0.009634,-0.005429,-0.005834,0.00352,0.003167,0.006034,-0.007379,-0.008859,0.005317,-0.000863,-0.006989,-0.001796
ITA_IA:_Etruscan,0.126913,0.153853,0.034695,-0.014212,0.0417,-0.005299,0.0024675,-0.002769,0.019839,0.0343515,-0.0023545,0.014237,-0.014792,-0.004335,-0.00475,-0.007823,-0.0028035,0.0052575,0.011564,-0.001188,-0.002558,0.003771,-6.15e-05,-0.0004215,-0.002694
ITA_IA:_Prenestini_tribe_IA,0.12862,0.145221,0.047 14,0.005491,0.046162,0.00251,-0.00282,0.002769,0.021475,0.039727,-0.002923,0.012289,-0.021407,-0.016239,0.012622,0.000398,-0.003129,0.003421,0.00176,-0.001251,0.004492,0.003586,-0.00456,-0.003976,0.000239
ITA_IA:_Rome_Latini_IA,0.127482,0.147252,0.033187,-0.016796,0.044008,-0.008646,-0.00376,-0.004846,0.026588,0.052666,-0.002761,0.015137,-0.036719,-0.008533,-0.009093,0.013392,0.016037,-0.004687,0.003897,0.004127,0.00262,-0.00272,0.001972,-0.007712,-0.008742
ITA_IA:_Villanovan,0.12862,0.156392,0.042238,-0.024225,0.052933,-0.008367,-0.001645,-0.005307,0.023725,0.040274,0.006008,0.006894,-0.018285,-0.019405,-0.003529,0.008751,0.025686,0.002914,0.004651,0.004 252,0.00574,0.006059,-0.006286,-0.010604,-0.002515
Iberia_East_IA,0.1244941,0.1489018,0.0564739,0.002 1802,0.0598572,-0.0031725,-0.0036426,0.0044711,0.0299882,0.0468802,-0.0047092,0.0111088,-0.0233585,-0.0145191,0.0078549,0.0056351,0.0067799,0.0016153, 0.0038024,-0.0010318,0.0055682,-9.26e-05,-0.007364,-0.0123961,-0.0011226
GRC:_Minoan_Lassithi,0.1192866,0.170609,-0.0181772,-0.093993,0.0295438,-0.0398256,-0.001316,-0.0034614,0.0103488,0.0598102,0.0029878,0.0153164,-0.0251238,-5.48e-05,-0.0374586,-0.0109518,0.0173934,-0.0012414,0.0088742,-0.0136316,-0.0133764,0.0083836,-0.0050776,-0.0010604,-0.0024428
GRC:_Mycenaean,0.107847,0.1563915,-0.008108,-0.0646808,0.0216962,-0.0271222,-0.0005288,-0.0021345,0.00542,0.047336,0.005521,0.0169352,-0.012785,-0.0006195,-0.0163882,-0.0098118,0.0210245,0.0036108,0.0123188,-0.0039705,-0.0058648,0.0001858,-0.0065935,0.0011448,-0.0007185
GRC:Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2,0.118376,0.158423,-0.009051,-0.0670225,0.0252355,-0.027889,0.001645,-0.005077,0.0049085,0.042552,0.002842,0.01124,-0.016873,0.003578,-0.018526,-0.0157785,0.0035855,0.0003805,0.004588,-0.0126935,-0.008298,0.001546,0.001664,0.0071095,-0.008502
ITA_Rome_Imperial,0.1039821,0.1495156,-0.0235307,-0.0574065,0.0045265,-0.0204055,-0.0011946,-0.0051488,0.0006604,0.0196549,0.0034575,0.0025539,-0.0040602,-0.0014737,-0.0081715,-0.0014474,0.0035992,0.000454,0.0012178,-0.0032854,-0.0025579,0.0020454,-0.0006985,-0.0004845,0.0004141
Levant_Ashkelon_IA2,0.0789173,0.1411587,-0.0600877,-0.1049757,-0.0165157,-0.0365343,-0.0036033,-0.017461,0.0156117,0.011906,0.0060623,-0.007094,0.0225967,-0.003991,-0.010541,0.0114467,0.00339,-0.005574,-0.005447,0.0036683,0.0041593,0.0037097,-0.0047657,-0.007471,0.0026343
Canary_Islands_Guanche,-0.0393828,0.1314096,-0.0023384,-0.0687344,0.0337292,-0.0363672,-0.0299874,0.008261,0.0708878,0.0305428,0.0075674,-0.0059948,0.0182554,-0.0176982,0.0232082,-0.0130468,0.0031814,-0.019206,-0.044321,0.010405,-0.0134762,-0.0377142,0.0232692,-0.0011806,0.0046224

Ashkenazi_OG:Ashk_DE_DE_1,0.094473,0.142174,-0.021496,-0.057171,0.01231,-0.023427,0.003055,-0.003923,0.010226,0.01877,0.000812,-0.001199,0.003271,-0.001101,-0.0057,0.012861,0.013038,-0.003167,0.001257,0.003377,-0.00025,-0.006925,-0.00456,0.000723,-0.003952
Ashkenazi_OG:Ashk_DE_DE_4,0.101303,0.148267,-0.019233,-0.049419,0.008925,-0.020359,0,0,0.014112,0.021686,0.003897,-0.002098,0.003419,-0.005092,-0.004886,0.000796,-0.003129,0.004941,0.002891,0.003377,0.002246,0.001 36,-0.005916,-0.001205,-0.000718
Ashkenazi_OG:Ashk_DE_DE_6,0.091058,0.142174,-0.015085,-0.050065,0.010156,-0.020638,-0.00188,-0.003923,0.00634,0.021504,0.002273,0.001349,0.0004 46,-0.006331,-0.005972,0.010209,0.016689,-0.005701,-0.006034,0.003252,-0.003868,-0.005441,0.002465,0.003133,0.00491
Italo-Romaniote_OG_4.0:Romaniote3,0.095611,0.146236,-0.028284,-0.069122,0.005539,-0.02259,-0.005405,-0.004384,0.007567,0.015672,0.007632,0.004346,0.002 676,0.003441,-0.009908,-0.013392,-0.013299,-0.003674,0.000377,-0.005253,-0.006489,0.002597,0.006286,0.00253,-0.000599
Italo-Romaniote_OG_4.0:Italian_Jew:ItalyJew5,0.091058,0. 147252,-0.032809,-0.065892,0.00677,-0.023985,-0.002115,-0.003,0.011658,0.016948,0.004872,0.001199,0.001784 ,0.003303,-0.010858,-0.013524,-0.011735,-0.003294,-0.001257,-0.010005,-0.005865,0.005193,0.000863,0.002169,0.002994
Italo-Romaniote_OG_4.0:Romaniote7,0.088782,0.14319,-0.032432,-0.063954,-0.00277,-0.016733,-0.006815,-0.005538,0.007567,0.014214,0.003573,0.002997,-0.004906,0.005367,-0.008143,-0.016441,-0.014994,-0.004307,0.006536,-0.007754,-0.001373,0.002473,0.001972,-0.005302,0.007065
Roman_Jew_OG?:RMPR130,0.103579,0.150298,-0.037335,-0.063308,-0.001846,-0.021753,0.00047,-0.010846,0.003681,0.030069,0.008444,-0.001948,-0.003419,-0.002064,-0.00285,-0.009546,0.002868,0.002534,-0.000628,-0.000875,0.004118,0.001855,-0.013557,-0.001325,-0.00455
Roman_Jew_OG?:RMPR38,0.102441,0.157407,-0.0445,-0.08075,-0.017542,-0.031236,-0.00423,-0.008538,-0.013908,0.016766,0.002598,-0.001049,-0.003271,0.006744,-0.007736,-0.010475,-0.011083,0.001014,0.004902,-0.004252,0.001497,0.003462,-0.001232,-0.00012,-0.001796



Target: Ella_scaled
Distance: 1.5759% / 0.01575914
53.8 England_IA
22.2 ITA_IA
17.4 DEU_MA
6.0 Italo-Romaniote_OG_4.0
0.6 GRC

Removing the Italo-Romaniote_OG4.0 samples still ends up in prefering a Jewish source for a part of her non-local ancestry over the Roman Imperial average (even though technically, the samples are "Roman"):


Target: Ella_scaled
Distance: 1.5934% / 0.01593382
52.6 England_IA
20.6 DEU_MA
20.4 ITA_IA
3.0 GRC
2.8 Roman_Jew_OG?
0.6 Canary_Islands_Guanche

I've had a quick look at the scores of the French averages and overall they seem to prefer your Jewish samples over the Roman Imperial average aswell (although Corsica and Provence are the only ones who score more Jewish than my mother). The German average doesn't pick up either and the Belgian one only picks up 0.6% Jewish but when removed, no Roman Imperial at all.

Edited to add: the individual samples do show similar results!

sktibo
11-03-2020, 02:50 PM
True, but in our case, it's like destroying a myth deeply rooted in our culture, well at least the myth (or not) of "our ancestors the Gauls" is still alive and will be demystified here soon from what I heard.

What myth would that be? Is there one related to the Romans?

Kellebel
11-03-2020, 03:00 PM
Okay, call me weird, but I put up my maternal grandmother as a source in the above mentioned model. Here's what my mother gets:


Target: Ella_scaled
Distance: 1.2734% / 0.01273441
51.0 Pao_scaled
26.4 England_IA
11.8 ITA_IA
5.8 Italo-Romaniote_OG_4.0
5.0 DEU_MA


Look at that 51% Pao she gets (Pao, short for Paola, is her mother). That's amazing stuff right there.

I was hoping to get around 25% Pao in return, but no such luck I'm afraid:


Target: Kellebel_scaled
Distance: 1.2101% / 0.01210107
71.8 England_IA
16.8 ITA_IA
9.2 DEU_MA
1.2 GRC
1.0 Italo-Romaniote_OG_4.0

jstephan
11-03-2020, 03:39 PM
What myth would that be? Is there one related to the Romans?

It's commonly believed that we descend from the Gauls and the Romans (+Franks + Vikings here and there), that's what our history books tell us !

leorcooper19
11-03-2020, 03:54 PM
Kellebel, very interesting results with your mom. Obviously in comparison to her mother she has a small, but present, southernly component. I would try also modeling without any Greek references when using Italo-Romaniote_OG, Roman_Jew_OG?, and Ashkenazi_OG as they all have significant Greek input. As of right now there may be slight overfitting happening, which may account for the better distances. Also, I would like to see the result of a mixed northernly components + Ashkenazi_OG model.

Before I forget it's also important to point out that the Roman_Jew_OG? reference does not have any Berber whereas both Italo-Romaniote_OG and Ashkenazi_OG do.

Considering that Ashkenazi_OG can be modeled as 75-80% Italo-Romaniote_OG, if your mom scores near 6% that may indicate her "Ashkenazi" ancestry is around 8%.

sktibo
11-03-2020, 04:08 PM
It's commonly believed that we descend from the Gauls and the Romans (+Franks + Vikings here and there), that's what our history books tell us !

I wouldn't call the Romans a myth as they indisputably replaced the older local languages with Latin and there is evidence of their occupation everywhere. It remains to be seen what kind of genetic impact they may have had but they are certainly the cultural ancestors of the romance language nations

Kellebel
11-03-2020, 04:20 PM
Kellebel, very interesting results with your mom. Obviously in comparison to her mother she has a small, but present, southernly component. I would try also modeling without any Greek references when using Italo-Romaniote_OG, Roman_Jew_OG?, and Ashkenazi_OG as they all have significant Greek input. As of right now there may be slight overfitting happening, which may account for the better distances. Also, I would like to see the result of a mixed northernly components + Ashkenazi_OG model.

Before I forget it's also important to point out that the Roman_Jew_OG? reference does not have any Berber whereas both Italo-Romaniote_OG and Ashkenazi_OG do.

Considering that Ashkenazi_OG can be modeled as 75-80% Italo-Romaniote_OG, if your mom scores near 6% that may indicate her "Ashkenazi" ancestry is around 8%.

Thank you!

Without the Greek samples:




My mother:
Target: Ella_scaled
Distance: 1.5760% / 0.01575985
54.0 England_IA
22.8 ITA_IA
16.8 DEU_MA
6.4 Italo-Romaniote_OG_4.0

My maternal grandmother:
Target: Pao_scaled
Distance: 1.5109% / 0.01510869
45.0 DEU_MA
31.2 England_IA
23.8 ITA_IA

Me:
Target: Kellebel_scaled
Distance: 1.2108% / 0.01210755
71.6 England_IA
17.6 ITA_IA
9.0 DEU_MA
1.8 Italo-Romaniote_OG_4.0

As for the northern components + Ashkenazi+OG, focusing on my mom only this time:


Target: Ella_scaled
Distance: 1.6245% / 0.01624523
47.0 England_IA
24.8 ITA_IA
22.4 DEU_MA
5.8 Ashkenazi_OG

I'm not sure how I could avoid overfitting as I've kept the model quite simple already I think. But when using either DEU_MA or England_IA, she gets:


Target: Ella_scaled
Distance: 1.6341% / 0.01634144
70.8 England_IA
22.6 ITA_IA
6.6 Italo-Romaniote_OG_4.0

Target: Ella_scaled
Distance: 1.8831% / 0.01883059
59.4 DEU_MA
33.0 ITA_IA
7.6 Ashkenazi_OG


I can't go without the ITA_IA, as it ends up in results that are waaaay out there with 12%+ Jewish.

And heck, I'm gonna do it, when using her mother as a source + Jewish pops, just to get an idea:


Target: Ella_scaled
Distance: 1.5166% / 0.01516608
92.6 Pao_scaled
7.4 Italo-Romaniote_OG_4.0

Dewsloth
11-03-2020, 04:23 PM
Okay, so I have this basic IA/MA model to see towards what direction my mother gets pulled from her main ancestry:


DEU_MA,0.1223596,0.1303939,0.061169,0.048773,0.039 792,0.0199408,0.010975,0.0052151,0.0013295,-0.0024966,-0.003735,0.001109,-0.0091576,-0.0038398,0.0161643,-0.0008352,-0.0133511,0.0032684,0.0041354,0.0040271,0.0060019, 0.0037342,-0.0007273,0.011146,-0.0004429
England_IA,0.1317503,0.1307495,0.0601505,0.0480462 ,0.0350832,0.0201498,0.0048175,0.0036922,0.0042438 ,0.0041915,-0.0044248,0.0057322,-0.0105175,-0.018476,0.0180167,0.0100438,0.001206,-6.33e-05,0.0033312,0.003908,0.0038995,0.000247,-0.0012018,0.0114172,0.0004493
ITA_IA:_Boville_Ernica_IA,0.126344,0.152329,0.0343 18,-0.014535,0.054164,-0.01506,-0.001175,0.005307,0.019634,0.041914,0.005196,0.010 79,-0.011001,-0.005643,0.004479,-0.016441,-0.010822,-0.001394,0.006662,-0.01113,0.007736,0.007172,-0.007641,-0.00241,0.008981
ITA_IA:_Ardea_Latini_IA,0.133173,0.156392,0.0445,-0.00969,0.044008,-0.004462,0.00846,0.003,0.024543,0.044101,-0.002598,0.012289,-0.022448,-0.009634,-0.005429,-0.005834,0.00352,0.003167,0.006034,-0.007379,-0.008859,0.005317,-0.000863,-0.006989,-0.001796
ITA_IA:_Etruscan,0.126913,0.153853,0.034695,-0.014212,0.0417,-0.005299,0.0024675,-0.002769,0.019839,0.0343515,-0.0023545,0.014237,-0.014792,-0.004335,-0.00475,-0.007823,-0.0028035,0.0052575,0.011564,-0.001188,-0.002558,0.003771,-6.15e-05,-0.0004215,-0.002694
ITA_IA:_Prenestini_tribe_IA,0.12862,0.145221,0.047 14,0.005491,0.046162,0.00251,-0.00282,0.002769,0.021475,0.039727,-0.002923,0.012289,-0.021407,-0.016239,0.012622,0.000398,-0.003129,0.003421,0.00176,-0.001251,0.004492,0.003586,-0.00456,-0.003976,0.000239
ITA_IA:_Rome_Latini_IA,0.127482,0.147252,0.033187,-0.016796,0.044008,-0.008646,-0.00376,-0.004846,0.026588,0.052666,-0.002761,0.015137,-0.036719,-0.008533,-0.009093,0.013392,0.016037,-0.004687,0.003897,0.004127,0.00262,-0.00272,0.001972,-0.007712,-0.008742
ITA_IA:_Villanovan,0.12862,0.156392,0.042238,-0.024225,0.052933,-0.008367,-0.001645,-0.005307,0.023725,0.040274,0.006008,0.006894,-0.018285,-0.019405,-0.003529,0.008751,0.025686,0.002914,0.004651,0.004 252,0.00574,0.006059,-0.006286,-0.010604,-0.002515
Iberia_East_IA,0.1244941,0.1489018,0.0564739,0.002 1802,0.0598572,-0.0031725,-0.0036426,0.0044711,0.0299882,0.0468802,-0.0047092,0.0111088,-0.0233585,-0.0145191,0.0078549,0.0056351,0.0067799,0.0016153, 0.0038024,-0.0010318,0.0055682,-9.26e-05,-0.007364,-0.0123961,-0.0011226
GRC:_Minoan_Lassithi,0.1192866,0.170609,-0.0181772,-0.093993,0.0295438,-0.0398256,-0.001316,-0.0034614,0.0103488,0.0598102,0.0029878,0.0153164,-0.0251238,-5.48e-05,-0.0374586,-0.0109518,0.0173934,-0.0012414,0.0088742,-0.0136316,-0.0133764,0.0083836,-0.0050776,-0.0010604,-0.0024428
GRC:_Mycenaean,0.107847,0.1563915,-0.008108,-0.0646808,0.0216962,-0.0271222,-0.0005288,-0.0021345,0.00542,0.047336,0.005521,0.0169352,-0.012785,-0.0006195,-0.0163882,-0.0098118,0.0210245,0.0036108,0.0123188,-0.0039705,-0.0058648,0.0001858,-0.0065935,0.0011448,-0.0007185
GRC:Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2,0.118376,0.158423,-0.009051,-0.0670225,0.0252355,-0.027889,0.001645,-0.005077,0.0049085,0.042552,0.002842,0.01124,-0.016873,0.003578,-0.018526,-0.0157785,0.0035855,0.0003805,0.004588,-0.0126935,-0.008298,0.001546,0.001664,0.0071095,-0.008502
ITA_Rome_Imperial,0.1039821,0.1495156,-0.0235307,-0.0574065,0.0045265,-0.0204055,-0.0011946,-0.0051488,0.0006604,0.0196549,0.0034575,0.0025539,-0.0040602,-0.0014737,-0.0081715,-0.0014474,0.0035992,0.000454,0.0012178,-0.0032854,-0.0025579,0.0020454,-0.0006985,-0.0004845,0.0004141
Levant_Ashkelon_IA2,0.0789173,0.1411587,-0.0600877,-0.1049757,-0.0165157,-0.0365343,-0.0036033,-0.017461,0.0156117,0.011906,0.0060623,-0.007094,0.0225967,-0.003991,-0.010541,0.0114467,0.00339,-0.005574,-0.005447,0.0036683,0.0041593,0.0037097,-0.0047657,-0.007471,0.0026343
Canary_Islands_Guanche,-0.0393828,0.1314096,-0.0023384,-0.0687344,0.0337292,-0.0363672,-0.0299874,0.008261,0.0708878,0.0305428,0.0075674,-0.0059948,0.0182554,-0.0176982,0.0232082,-0.0130468,0.0031814,-0.019206,-0.044321,0.010405,-0.0134762,-0.0377142,0.0232692,-0.0011806,0.0046224


The European IA samples are used to reflect her local ancestry, GRC and Roman Imperial for any possible Greco-Roman influences and eventually Askhelon and Guanche to reflect any other Med-related influence. This is what she gets with the model above:



Compared to her mother, who is very, very, véry close to being 100% local Limburgish/Rhenish and whom my mother normally should resemble as her father came from the same region:



After adding your samples, it clearly prefers the Jewish samples over the GRC, Roman Imperial and Guanche my mother gets in the model above (while her mother's results are unchanged):


DEU_MA,0.1223596,0.1303939,0.061169,0.048773,0.039 792,0.0199408,0.010975,0.0052151,0.0013295,-0.0024966,-0.003735,0.001109,-0.0091576,-0.0038398,0.0161643,-0.0008352,-0.0133511,0.0032684,0.0041354,0.0040271,0.0060019, 0.0037342,-0.0007273,0.011146,-0.0004429
England_IA,0.1317503,0.1307495,0.0601505,0.0480462 ,0.0350832,0.0201498,0.0048175,0.0036922,0.0042438 ,0.0041915,-0.0044248,0.0057322,-0.0105175,-0.018476,0.0180167,0.0100438,0.001206,-6.33e-05,0.0033312,0.003908,0.0038995,0.000247,-0.0012018,0.0114172,0.0004493
ITA_IA:_Boville_Ernica_IA,0.126344,0.152329,0.0343 18,-0.014535,0.054164,-0.01506,-0.001175,0.005307,0.019634,0.041914,0.005196,0.010 79,-0.011001,-0.005643,0.004479,-0.016441,-0.010822,-0.001394,0.006662,-0.01113,0.007736,0.007172,-0.007641,-0.00241,0.008981
ITA_IA:_Ardea_Latini_IA,0.133173,0.156392,0.0445,-0.00969,0.044008,-0.004462,0.00846,0.003,0.024543,0.044101,-0.002598,0.012289,-0.022448,-0.009634,-0.005429,-0.005834,0.00352,0.003167,0.006034,-0.007379,-0.008859,0.005317,-0.000863,-0.006989,-0.001796
ITA_IA:_Etruscan,0.126913,0.153853,0.034695,-0.014212,0.0417,-0.005299,0.0024675,-0.002769,0.019839,0.0343515,-0.0023545,0.014237,-0.014792,-0.004335,-0.00475,-0.007823,-0.0028035,0.0052575,0.011564,-0.001188,-0.002558,0.003771,-6.15e-05,-0.0004215,-0.002694
ITA_IA:_Prenestini_tribe_IA,0.12862,0.145221,0.047 14,0.005491,0.046162,0.00251,-0.00282,0.002769,0.021475,0.039727,-0.002923,0.012289,-0.021407,-0.016239,0.012622,0.000398,-0.003129,0.003421,0.00176,-0.001251,0.004492,0.003586,-0.00456,-0.003976,0.000239
ITA_IA:_Rome_Latini_IA,0.127482,0.147252,0.033187,-0.016796,0.044008,-0.008646,-0.00376,-0.004846,0.026588,0.052666,-0.002761,0.015137,-0.036719,-0.008533,-0.009093,0.013392,0.016037,-0.004687,0.003897,0.004127,0.00262,-0.00272,0.001972,-0.007712,-0.008742
ITA_IA:_Villanovan,0.12862,0.156392,0.042238,-0.024225,0.052933,-0.008367,-0.001645,-0.005307,0.023725,0.040274,0.006008,0.006894,-0.018285,-0.019405,-0.003529,0.008751,0.025686,0.002914,0.004651,0.004 252,0.00574,0.006059,-0.006286,-0.010604,-0.002515
Iberia_East_IA,0.1244941,0.1489018,0.0564739,0.002 1802,0.0598572,-0.0031725,-0.0036426,0.0044711,0.0299882,0.0468802,-0.0047092,0.0111088,-0.0233585,-0.0145191,0.0078549,0.0056351,0.0067799,0.0016153, 0.0038024,-0.0010318,0.0055682,-9.26e-05,-0.007364,-0.0123961,-0.0011226
GRC:_Minoan_Lassithi,0.1192866,0.170609,-0.0181772,-0.093993,0.0295438,-0.0398256,-0.001316,-0.0034614,0.0103488,0.0598102,0.0029878,0.0153164,-0.0251238,-5.48e-05,-0.0374586,-0.0109518,0.0173934,-0.0012414,0.0088742,-0.0136316,-0.0133764,0.0083836,-0.0050776,-0.0010604,-0.0024428
GRC:_Mycenaean,0.107847,0.1563915,-0.008108,-0.0646808,0.0216962,-0.0271222,-0.0005288,-0.0021345,0.00542,0.047336,0.005521,0.0169352,-0.012785,-0.0006195,-0.0163882,-0.0098118,0.0210245,0.0036108,0.0123188,-0.0039705,-0.0058648,0.0001858,-0.0065935,0.0011448,-0.0007185
GRC:Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2,0.118376,0.158423,-0.009051,-0.0670225,0.0252355,-0.027889,0.001645,-0.005077,0.0049085,0.042552,0.002842,0.01124,-0.016873,0.003578,-0.018526,-0.0157785,0.0035855,0.0003805,0.004588,-0.0126935,-0.008298,0.001546,0.001664,0.0071095,-0.008502
ITA_Rome_Imperial,0.1039821,0.1495156,-0.0235307,-0.0574065,0.0045265,-0.0204055,-0.0011946,-0.0051488,0.0006604,0.0196549,0.0034575,0.0025539,-0.0040602,-0.0014737,-0.0081715,-0.0014474,0.0035992,0.000454,0.0012178,-0.0032854,-0.0025579,0.0020454,-0.0006985,-0.0004845,0.0004141
Levant_Ashkelon_IA2,0.0789173,0.1411587,-0.0600877,-0.1049757,-0.0165157,-0.0365343,-0.0036033,-0.017461,0.0156117,0.011906,0.0060623,-0.007094,0.0225967,-0.003991,-0.010541,0.0114467,0.00339,-0.005574,-0.005447,0.0036683,0.0041593,0.0037097,-0.0047657,-0.007471,0.0026343
Canary_Islands_Guanche,-0.0393828,0.1314096,-0.0023384,-0.0687344,0.0337292,-0.0363672,-0.0299874,0.008261,0.0708878,0.0305428,0.0075674,-0.0059948,0.0182554,-0.0176982,0.0232082,-0.0130468,0.0031814,-0.019206,-0.044321,0.010405,-0.0134762,-0.0377142,0.0232692,-0.0011806,0.0046224

Ashkenazi_OG:Ashk_DE_DE_1,0.094473,0.142174,-0.021496,-0.057171,0.01231,-0.023427,0.003055,-0.003923,0.010226,0.01877,0.000812,-0.001199,0.003271,-0.001101,-0.0057,0.012861,0.013038,-0.003167,0.001257,0.003377,-0.00025,-0.006925,-0.00456,0.000723,-0.003952
Ashkenazi_OG:Ashk_DE_DE_4,0.101303,0.148267,-0.019233,-0.049419,0.008925,-0.020359,0,0,0.014112,0.021686,0.003897,-0.002098,0.003419,-0.005092,-0.004886,0.000796,-0.003129,0.004941,0.002891,0.003377,0.002246,0.001 36,-0.005916,-0.001205,-0.000718
Ashkenazi_OG:Ashk_DE_DE_6,0.091058,0.142174,-0.015085,-0.050065,0.010156,-0.020638,-0.00188,-0.003923,0.00634,0.021504,0.002273,0.001349,0.0004 46,-0.006331,-0.005972,0.010209,0.016689,-0.005701,-0.006034,0.003252,-0.003868,-0.005441,0.002465,0.003133,0.00491
Italo-Romaniote_OG_4.0:Romaniote3,0.095611,0.146236,-0.028284,-0.069122,0.005539,-0.02259,-0.005405,-0.004384,0.007567,0.015672,0.007632,0.004346,0.002 676,0.003441,-0.009908,-0.013392,-0.013299,-0.003674,0.000377,-0.005253,-0.006489,0.002597,0.006286,0.00253,-0.000599
Italo-Romaniote_OG_4.0:Italian_Jew:ItalyJew5,0.091058,0. 147252,-0.032809,-0.065892,0.00677,-0.023985,-0.002115,-0.003,0.011658,0.016948,0.004872,0.001199,0.001784 ,0.003303,-0.010858,-0.013524,-0.011735,-0.003294,-0.001257,-0.010005,-0.005865,0.005193,0.000863,0.002169,0.002994
Italo-Romaniote_OG_4.0:Romaniote7,0.088782,0.14319,-0.032432,-0.063954,-0.00277,-0.016733,-0.006815,-0.005538,0.007567,0.014214,0.003573,0.002997,-0.004906,0.005367,-0.008143,-0.016441,-0.014994,-0.004307,0.006536,-0.007754,-0.001373,0.002473,0.001972,-0.005302,0.007065
Roman_Jew_OG?:RMPR130,0.103579,0.150298,-0.037335,-0.063308,-0.001846,-0.021753,0.00047,-0.010846,0.003681,0.030069,0.008444,-0.001948,-0.003419,-0.002064,-0.00285,-0.009546,0.002868,0.002534,-0.000628,-0.000875,0.004118,0.001855,-0.013557,-0.001325,-0.00455
Roman_Jew_OG?:RMPR38,0.102441,0.157407,-0.0445,-0.08075,-0.017542,-0.031236,-0.00423,-0.008538,-0.013908,0.016766,0.002598,-0.001049,-0.003271,0.006744,-0.007736,-0.010475,-0.011083,0.001014,0.004902,-0.004252,0.001497,0.003462,-0.001232,-0.00012,-0.001796




Removing the Italo-Romaniote_OG4.0 samples still ends up in prefering a Jewish source for a part of her non-local ancestry over the Roman Imperial average (even though technically, the samples are "Roman"):



I've had a quick look at the scores of the French averages and overall they seem to prefer your Jewish samples over the Roman Imperial average aswell (although Corsica and Provence are the only ones who score more Jewish than my mother). The German average doesn't pick up either and the Belgian one only picks up 0.6% Jewish but when removed, no Roman Imperial at all. Combining that with my grandmother's results, I'm not sure if I should still stick to the idea that my mom's East Med signal should be coming from a local source. :\

Edit: what's interesting and probably just a coincidence, but still.. 6% of my mother's paternal ancestry remains unverified and matches from one generation closer don't add up. My mom's first 23 results were 6% Italian, which is a huge number for someone with her ancestry. Also, she often gets somewhat similar results on G25 to people being 6% Italian/Jewish (like JMcB and Dewsloth's father). Like I said, it's probably just a coincidence, but it's funny how that 6% keeps on popping up.

I tried that set for Dad:

Target: DewslothDad_scaled
Distance: 0.9958% / 0.00995802
37.0 DEU_MA
27.0 England_IA
25.0 ITA_IA
11.0 Ashkenazi_OG

Kellebel
11-03-2020, 04:26 PM
I tried that set for Dad:

Target: DewslothDad_scaled
Distance: 0.9958% / 0.00995802
37.0 DEU_MA
27.0 England_IA
25.0 ITA_IA
11.0 Ashkenazi_OG

Your father is 6,25% Ashkenazi, right? Or was it 12,5%? Sorry, I have the memory of a shrimp as we would say in Dutch.

Nino90
11-03-2020, 04:32 PM
Target: Nino_scaled
Distance: 2.5653% / 0.02565267
89.0 England_IA
8.2 ITA_IA
2.8 Ashkenazi_OG


England_IA removed:


Target: Nino_scaled
Distance: 3.5733% / 0.03573299
78.8 DEU_MA
15.6 ITA_IA:_Rome_Latini_IA
5.6 ITA_IA:_Villanovan


Added ancient Saami avarage + North Germanic ( Sigtuna ) average.


Target: Nino_scaled
Distance: 2.4418% / 0.02441817
56.8 North-Germanic
31.4 ITA_IA
9.6 Ancient-Saami
2.2 Ashkenazi_OG

Dewsloth
11-03-2020, 04:43 PM
Your father is 6,25% Ashkenazi, right? Or was it 12,5%? Sorry, I have the memory of a shrimp as we would say in Dutch.

My father's second great-grandfather is the most recent ancestor who I know has two parents who are of just German Ashkenazi descent.
He married a Catholic from Mainz and their son married a Belgian Catholic, I don't have any hints that those lines also had converts, but I only know those lines a few generations back.

Dewsloth
11-03-2020, 04:46 PM
Dad, unaggregated:

Target: DewslothDad_scaled
Distance: 0.9910% / 0.00990967
36.8 DEU_MA
27.8 England_IA
18.2 ITA_IA:_Ardea_Latini_IA
7.6 Ashkenazi_OG:Ashk_DE_DE_6
6.0 ITA_IA:_Prenestini_tribe_IA
2.6 Roman_Jew_OG?:RMPR130
1.0 Ashkenazi_OG:Ashk_DE_DE_1

CyrylBojarski
11-03-2020, 04:52 PM
Target: Cyryl_scaled
Distance: 5.5190% / 0.05518951
90.2 DEU_MA
8.2 Ashkenazi_OG
1.6 Levant_Ashkelon_IA2

CyrylBojarski
11-03-2020, 05:02 PM
With my personalized North Slavic and Bulgarian sample

Target: Cyryl_scaled
Distance: 1.7735% / 0.01773532
86.4 North Slavic
8.0 Roman_Jew_OG?
5.0 Bulgarian
0.6 Levant_Ashkelon_IA2

Finn
11-03-2020, 05:10 PM
Nice model, reveals something! Sense and simplicity ;)
40959

Father more Germanic (2/3 Ger/ 1/3 LNBA), Mom higher LNBA (1/3 Ger/ 2/3 LNBA)...and I'm in the middle 50/50 ;)

Kellebel
11-03-2020, 05:20 PM
I tried my basic model with only the Ashkenazi samples. Interestingly, this is what I got for my mom:


Target: Ella_scaled
Distance: 1.6003% / 0.01600275
51.6 England_IA
22.2 DEU_MA
18.8 ITA_IA
4.4 GRC
2.4 ITA_Rome_Imperial
0.6 Canary_Islands_Guanche

The Ashkenazi doesn't get picked up at all!

Kellebel
11-03-2020, 06:56 PM
Some results of the averages from regions around the Rhine:


Target: Belgian
Distance: 0.5748% / 0.00574784
43.0 England_IA
30.8 DEU_MA
13.0 ITA_IA
9.4 GRC
3.4 Iberia_East_IA
0.4 Italo-Romaniote_OG_4.0

Target: German
Distance: 1.3314% / 0.01331410
61.6 DEU_MA
26.4 England_IA
8.8 ITA_IA
3.2 GRC

Target: Swiss_German
Distance: 0.7246% / 0.00724626
36.4 DEU_MA
32.6 England_IA
17.8 ITA_IA
11.2 GRC
2.0 Iberia_East_IA

Target: Swiss_French
Distance: 0.8339% / 0.00833913
42.8 England_IA
39.0 ITA_IA
8.0 DEU_MA
5.2 GRC
5.0 Italo-Romaniote_OG_4.0

Target: French_Alsace
Distance: 0.8435% / 0.00843477
43.6 DEU_MA
25.0 England_IA
15.8 ITA_IA
7.0 GRC
5.2 Iberia_East_IA
2.0 Ashkenazi_Germany
1.4 Roman_Jew_OG?

Target: French_Provence
Distance: 0.5726% / 0.00572623
33.0 England_IA
20.8 ITA_IA
16.0 DEU_MA
13.2 GRC
8.6 Ashkenazi_OG
5.0 Iberia_East_IA
2.6 Italo-Romaniote_OG_4.0
0.8 Canary_Islands_Guanche


(The reason I kept the Greek samples, is because they do not or barely harbour Levantine admixture, which is there in the Jewish samples. I also kept the Roman Imperial average, but it isn't getting picked up when these Jewish samples are being used.)

Without the Jewish samples:


Target: Belgian
Distance: 0.5754% / 0.00575395
42.8 England_IA
31.0 DEU_MA
13.4 ITA_IA
9.8 GRC
3.0 Iberia_East_IA

Target: German
Distance: 1.3314% / 0.01331409
61.8 DEU_MA
26.2 England_IA
8.8 ITA_IA
3.2 GRC

Target: Swiss_German
Distance: 0.7246% / 0.00724578
36.6 DEU_MA
32.4 England_IA
18.2 ITA_IA
11.0 GRC
1.8 Iberia_East_IA

Target: Swiss_French
Distance: 0.8518% / 0.00851815
40.4 England_IA
39.0 ITA_IA
9.8 DEU_MA
5.4 ITA_Rome_Imperial
5.2 GRC
0.2 Canary_Islands_Guanche

Target: French_Alsace
Distance: 0.8490% / 0.00848976
43.6 DEU_MA
25.2 England_IA
15.2 ITA_IA
8.2 GRC
5.2 Iberia_East_IA
2.6 ITA_Rome_Imperial

Target: French_Provence
Distance: 0.5778% / 0.00577770
36.2 England_IA
16.6 ITA_IA
14.8 DEU_MA
13.4 GRC
10.0 ITA_Rome_Imperial
7.2 Iberia_East_IA
1.8 Canary_Islands_Guanche

Finn
11-03-2020, 07:29 PM
When I chance Deu_Ma for HS2 this is the effect:


40968

England_Saxon:I0159,0.130897,0.135065,0.062979,0.0 53618,0.038161,0.023148,0.00329,0.006461,0.001023,-0.000729,-0.001299,0.006894,-0.014569,-0.010322,0.028366,0.010342,-0.007432,0.000507,0.004525,0.008254,0.001373,0.007 296,-0.005916,0.012773,0.003592

JerryS.
11-03-2020, 08:15 PM
your DEU sample is over 90% England IA, I don't think its a good German reference with the England IA already in the same source.

Kellebel
11-03-2020, 09:25 PM
your DEU sample is over 90% England IA, I don't think its a good German reference with the England IA already in the same source.

I assume you took DEU_MA out of the source and put it into target? I would haven't suspected it to be very much different, as the other components in the model are too distant/different. The initial logic behind including both England_IA and DEU_MA is to capture both the "Celtic" and "Germanic" affinity of the local population from Limburg:


Distance to: DEU_MA
0.01472762 Dutch



Distance to: England_IA
0.01864744 Welsh

If I had to choose, I'm not sure which one I should go for. If you see the distances, you might want to say DEU_MA, as its closest population is Dutch, but both my mother and grandmother are actually closer to Welsh (England_IA's closest population) than Dutch..
Nor would I have any clue what singular sample would represent the local Celto-Germanic population better than these two together with the more continental Italian IA samples. Unfortunately, with the lack of (qualitative) Gaulish and IA Dutch samples, the only way to do this is to work around it. :noidea:

So if anyone has any suggestions, please!

JerryS.
11-03-2020, 09:39 PM
I assume you took DEU_MA out of the source and put it into target? I would haven't suspected it to be very much different, as the other components in the model are too distant/different. The initial logic behind including both England_IA and DEU_MA is to capture both the "Celtic" and "Germanic" affinity of the local population from Limburg:





If I had to choose, I'm not sure which one I should go for. If you see the distances, you might want to say DEU_MA, as its closest population is Dutch, but both my mother and grandmother are actually closer to Welsh (England_IA's closest population) than Dutch..
Nor would I have any clue what singular sample would represent the local Celto-Germanic population better than these two together with the more continental Italian IA samples. Unfortunately, with the lack of (qualitative) Gaulish and IA Dutch samples, the only way to do this is to work around it. :noidea:

So if anyone has any suggestions, please!

I am even more of a novice at this than you are, but to me the German (DEU) are too England IA or vise versa to be used together without over fitting, its either one or the other.

Finn
11-03-2020, 09:40 PM
I assume you took DEU_MA out of the source and put it into target? I would haven't suspected it to be very much different, as the other components in the model are too distant/different. The initial logic behind including both England_IA and DEU_MA is to capture both the "Celtic" and "Germanic" affinity of the local population from Limburg:





If I had to choose, I'm not sure which one I should go for. If you see the distances, you might want to say DEU_MA, as its closest population is Dutch, but both my mother and grandmother are actually closer to Welsh (England_IA's closest population) than Dutch..
Nor would I have any clue what singular sample would represent the local Celto-Germanic population better than these two together with the more continental Italian IA samples. Unfortunately, with the lack of (qualitative) Gaulish and IA Dutch samples, the only way to do this is to work around it. :noidea:

So if anyone has any suggestions, please!

Just give it a shot ;)

40975


England_Saxon:I0159,0.130897,0.135065,0.062979,0.0 53618,0.038161,0.023148,0.00329,0.006461,0.001023,-0.000729,-0.001299,0.006894,-0.014569,-0.010322,0.028366,0.010342,-0.007432,0.000507,0.004525,0.008254,0.001373,0.007 296,-0.005916,0.012773,0.003592
FRA_IA:ATT26,0.1161,0.132019,0.044877,0.039083,0.0 38776,0.013108,-0.006815,0.011999,0.014112,0.020957,-0.001299,0.007793,-0.024678,-0.011836,0.007872,0.007027,0.006128,0.008361,0.010 307,-0.013632,0.003993,0.00779,0.020706,0.000482,0.0087 42
FRA_IA:BES1248,0.12862,0.127957,0.064488,0.042636, 0.043085,0.027052,0.007755,-0.003461,0.001636,0.007836,0.010718,0.011839,-0.00892,-0.007569,0.016015,-0.000663,-0.001434,0.004687,-0.015461,0.004002,0.01984,-0.002597,-0.009367,0.008555,-0.016765
FRA_IA:BFM265,0.122929,0.148267,0.05242,0.037468,0 .047086,0.018128,-0.00235,-0.000231,0.008795,0.012392,-0.007957,0.005695,-0.015312,-0.007844,0.020765,-0.003182,-0.016428,0.009122,0.006034,0.007504,-0.002246,0.000124,0.001109,-0.00012,0.002036
FRA_IA:COL11,0.122929,0.13405,0.058454,0.064923,0. 037238,0.020917,-0.008225,0.01223,0.008795,0.011116,-0.002273,0.002548,-0.016353,-0.003991,0.017508,-0.008221,-0.014603,-0.005954,0.006662,0.005378,0.006489,0.008161,0.010 106,-0.001446,0.000599
FRA_IA:COL153A,0.130897,0.158423,0.045254,0.02584, 0.036622,0.012271,0.006815,0.008538,0.003272,0.015 126,0.009419,-0.007194,0.001189,-0.000963,0.005022,0.003182,-0.013038,0.00038,0.016592,0.001,-0.015847,0.007543,0.000863,-0.018798,0.005389
FRA_IA:COL153i,0.120652,0.127957,0.046763,0.024548 ,0.045239,-0.006136,0.015276,0.004154,0.015748,0.034078,-0.00341,0.017235,-0.022448,-0.010459,0.012622,-0.026518,0.005476,0.008868,-0.001131,0.015883,-0.000749,-0.000742,-0.010476,0.003253,0.008143
FRA_IA:ERS86,0.122929,0.161469,0.040729,0.030039,0 .040623,0.008646,-0.010105,0.005077,0.006954,0.007289,-0.00065,0.005845,-0.010852,-0.002752,0.005157,0.021745,-0.004172,0.009755,0.011313,-0.005753,0.000624,0.012365,-0.004683,-0.012893,0.00012
FRA_IA:ERS88,0.130897,0.155376,0.044123,0.005168,0 .033237,0.000837,-0.004935,-0.005769,0.011249,0.02442,-0.004872,-0.001499,-0.023042,-0.016239,0.012079,-0.017104,-0.014603,-0.006461,-0.014204,-0.002251,-0.002496,0.000742,0.001356,0,0.000239
FRA_IA:ERS1164,0.124067,0.121864,0.052797,0.030039 ,0.033237,0.010877,0.011516,0.00923,0,0.019135,-0.002598,-0.01154,-0.01115,-0.012799,0.009908,0.006364,-0.002738,0.00038,0.001257,-0.004627,-0.007487,0.003957,0.002218,-0.011809,0.005389
FRA_IA:Jeb8,0.118376,0.138112,0.05506,0.027132,0.0 45239,-0.008367,-0.00329,0.003461,0.012271,0.010023,-0.00341,0.007194,-0.020812,-0.010046,0.016694,0.007425,-0.000391,-0.001647,0.000377,0.005378,-0.003868,-0.00136,-0.009983,-0.003615,0.007065
FRA_IA:NOR2B6,0.120652,0.147252,0.044877,0.005814, 0.0397,0.003347,-0.010105,0.007384,0.016975,0.014943,0.010718,0.011 09,-0.008771,-0.004542,0.012215,0.018165,0.027772,0.004941,0.005 405,0.002876,0.006364,-0.007543,-0.001109,-0.00253,-0.007784
FRA_IA:NOR3-6,0.133173,0.146236,0.050157,0.046189,0.029852,0.0 17291,-0.007755,0.005077,0.012885,0.001276,-0.002598,0.015137,-0.022745,-0.013212,0.020087,-0.007823,-0.021383,0.007095,-0.001006,0.006753,0.004866,0.005193,-0.002835,-0.007953,-0.000239
FRA_IA:NOR3-15,0.117238,0.149283,0.061471,0.022287,0.043393,-0.005299,0.005405,-0.001615,0.013703,0.018224,-0.005196,0.00045,-0.014569,-0.012111,0.022394,-0.005171,-0.019558,-0.006841,-0.004902,0.013381,-0.002121,-0.002844,-0.015652,-0.003615,0.002395
FRA_IA:NOR4,0.12862,0.151314,0.058454,0.001615,0.0 46778,-0.006136,-0.000705,0.014538,0.023929,0.031345,-0.013153,0.006594,-0.022448,-0.016377,-0.016965,0.004773,0.005737,-0.010135,0.011941,0.005503,0.006239,0.006183,-0.011462,0.007471,-0.002994
FRA_IA:PEY53,0.133173,0.139128,0.050534,0.039083,0 .050163,0.010598,-0.006345,-0.000692,0.008181,0.005103,-0.001624,0.016935,-0.019326,-0.007844,0.029451,-0.001724,-0.008996,0.003674,0.005028,-0.007128,0.010606,0.005193,-0.01861,-0.006507,0.008023
ITA_IA:_Boville_Ernica_IA,0.126344,0.152329,0.0343 18,-0.014535,0.054164,-0.01506,-0.001175,0.005307,0.019634,0.041914,0.005196,0.010 79,-0.011001,-0.005643,0.004479,-0.016441,-0.010822,-0.001394,0.006662,-0.01113,0.007736,0.007172,-0.007641,-0.00241,0.008981
ITA_IA:_Ardea_Latini_IA,0.133173,0.156392,0.0445,-0.00969,0.044008,-0.004462,0.00846,0.003,0.024543,0.044101,-0.002598,0.012289,-0.022448,-0.009634,-0.005429,-0.005834,0.00352,0.003167,0.006034,-0.007379,-0.008859,0.005317,-0.000863,-0.006989,-0.001796
ITA_IA:_Etruscan,0.126913,0.153853,0.034695,-0.014212,0.0417,-0.005299,0.0024675,-0.002769,0.019839,0.0343515,-0.0023545,0.014237,-0.014792,-0.004335,-0.00475,-0.007823,-0.0028035,0.0052575,0.011564,-0.001188,-0.002558,0.003771,-6.15e-05,-0.0004215,-0.002694
ITA_IA:_Prenestini_tribe_IA,0.12862,0.145221,0.047 14,0.005491,0.046162,0.00251,-0.00282,0.002769,0.021475,0.039727,-0.002923,0.012289,-0.021407,-0.016239,0.012622,0.000398,-0.003129,0.003421,0.00176,-0.001251,0.004492,0.003586,-0.00456,-0.003976,0.000239
ITA_IA:_Rome_Latini_IA,0.127482,0.147252,0.033187,-0.016796,0.044008,-0.008646,-0.00376,-0.004846,0.026588,0.052666,-0.002761,0.015137,-0.036719,-0.008533,-0.009093,0.013392,0.016037,-0.004687,0.003897,0.004127,0.00262,-0.00272,0.001972,-0.007712,-0.008742
ITA_IA:_Villanovan,0.12862,0.156392,0.042238,-0.024225,0.052933,-0.008367,-0.001645,-0.005307,0.023725,0.040274,0.006008,0.006894,-0.018285,-0.019405,-0.003529,0.008751,0.025686,0.002914,0.004651,0.004 252,0.00574,0.006059,-0.006286,-0.010604,-0.002515
Iberia_East_IA,0.1244941,0.1489018,0.0564739,0.002 1802,0.0598572,-0.0031725,-0.0036426,0.0044711,0.0299882,0.0468802,-0.0047092,0.0111088,-0.0233585,-0.0145191,0.0078549,0.0056351,0.0067799,0.0016153, 0.0038024,-0.0010318,0.0055682,-9.26e-05,-0.007364,-0.0123961,-0.0011226
GRC:_Minoan_Lassithi,0.1192866,0.170609,-0.0181772,-0.093993,0.0295438,-0.0398256,-0.001316,-0.0034614,0.0103488,0.0598102,0.0029878,0.0153164,-0.0251238,-5.48e-05,-0.0374586,-0.0109518,0.0173934,-0.0012414,0.0088742,-0.0136316,-0.0133764,0.0083836,-0.0050776,-0.0010604,-0.0024428
GRC:_Mycenaean,0.107847,0.1563915,-0.008108,-0.0646808,0.0216962,-0.0271222,-0.0005288,-0.0021345,0.00542,0.047336,0.005521,0.0169352,-0.012785,-0.0006195,-0.0163882,-0.0098118,0.0210245,0.0036108,0.0123188,-0.0039705,-0.0058648,0.0001858,-0.0065935,0.0011448,-0.0007185
GRC:Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2,0.118376,0.158423,-0.009051,-0.0670225,0.0252355,-0.027889,0.001645,-0.005077,0.0049085,0.042552,0.002842,0.01124,-0.016873,0.003578,-0.018526,-0.0157785,0.0035855,0.0003805,0.004588,-0.0126935,-0.008298,0.001546,0.001664,0.0071095,-0.008502
ITA_Rome_Imperial,0.1039821,0.1495156,-0.0235307,-0.0574065,0.0045265,-0.0204055,-0.0011946,-0.0051488,0.0006604,0.0196549,0.0034575,0.0025539,-0.0040602,-0.0014737,-0.0081715,-0.0014474,0.0035992,0.000454,0.0012178,-0.0032854,-0.0025579,0.0020454,-0.0006985,-0.0004845,0.0004141
Levant_Ashkelon_IA2,0.0789173,0.1411587,-0.0600877,-0.1049757,-0.0165157,-0.0365343,-0.0036033,-0.017461,0.0156117,0.011906,0.0060623,-0.007094,0.0225967,-0.003991,-0.010541,0.0114467,0.00339,-0.005574,-0.005447,0.0036683,0.0041593,0.0037097,-0.0047657,-0.007471,0.0026343
Canary_Islands_Guanche,-0.0393828,0.1314096,-0.0023384,-0.0687344,0.0337292,-0.0363672,-0.0299874,0.008261,0.0708878,0.0305428,0.0075674,-0.0059948,0.0182554,-0.0176982,0.0232082,-0.0130468,0.0031814,-0.019206,-0.044321,0.010405,-0.0134762,-0.0377142,0.0232692,-0.0011806,0.0046224
Ashkenazi_OG:Ashk_DE_DE_1,0.094473,0.142174,-0.021496,-0.057171,0.01231,-0.023427,0.003055,-0.003923,0.010226,0.01877,0.000812,-0.001199,0.003271,-0.001101,-0.0057,0.012861,0.013038,-0.003167,0.001257,0.003377,-0.00025,-0.006925,-0.00456,0.000723,-0.003952
Ashkenazi_OG:Ashk_DE_DE_4,0.101303,0.148267,-0.019233,-0.049419,0.008925,-0.020359,0,0,0.014112,0.021686,0.003897,-0.002098,0.003419,-0.005092,-0.004886,0.000796,-0.003129,0.004941,0.002891,0.003377,0.002246,0.001 36,-0.005916,-0.001205,-0.000718
Ashkenazi_OG:Ashk_DE_DE_6,0.091058,0.142174,-0.015085,-0.050065,0.010156,-0.020638,-0.00188,-0.003923,0.00634,0.021504,0.002273,0.001349,0.0004 46,-0.006331,-0.005972,0.010209,0.016689,-0.005701,-0.006034,0.003252,-0.003868,-0.005441,0.002465,0.003133,0.00491
Italo-Romaniote_OG_4.0:Romaniote3,0.095611,0.146236,-0.028284,-0.069122,0.005539,-0.02259,-0.005405,-0.004384,0.007567,0.015672,0.007632,0.004346,0.002 676,0.003441,-0.009908,-0.013392,-0.013299,-0.003674,0.000377,-0.005253,-0.006489,0.002597,0.006286,0.00253,-0.000599
Italo-Romaniote_OG_4.0:Italian_Jew:ItalyJew5,0.091058,0. 147252,-0.032809,-0.065892,0.00677,-0.023985,-0.002115,-0.003,0.011658,0.016948,0.004872,0.001199,0.001784 ,0.003303,-0.010858,-0.013524,-0.011735,-0.003294,-0.001257,-0.010005,-0.005865,0.005193,0.000863,0.002169,0.002994
Italo-Romaniote_OG_4.0:Romaniote7,0.088782,0.14319,-0.032432,-0.063954,-0.00277,-0.016733,-0.006815,-0.005538,0.007567,0.014214,0.003573,0.002997,-0.004906,0.005367,-0.008143,-0.016441,-0.014994,-0.004307,0.006536,-0.007754,-0.001373,0.002473,0.001972,-0.005302,0.007065
Roman_Jew_OG?:RMPR130,0.103579,0.150298,-0.037335,-0.063308,-0.001846,-0.021753,0.00047,-0.010846,0.003681,0.030069,0.008444,-0.001948,-0.003419,-0.002064,-0.00285,-0.009546,0.002868,0.002534,-0.000628,-0.000875,0.004118,0.001855,-0.013557,-0.001325,-0.00455
Roman_Jew_OG?:RMPR38,0.102441,0.157407,-0.0445,-0.08075,-0.017542,-0.031236,-0.00423,-0.008538,-0.013908,0.016766,0.002598,-0.001049,-0.003271,0.006744,-0.007736,-0.010475,-0.011083,0.001014,0.004902,-0.004252,0.001497,0.003462,-0.001232,-0.00012,-0.001796

Kellebel
11-03-2020, 09:55 PM
Just give it a shot ;)

40975


England_Saxon:I0159,0.130897,0.135065,0.062979,0.0 53618,0.038161,0.023148,0.00329,0.006461,0.001023,-0.000729,-0.001299,0.006894,-0.014569,-0.010322,0.028366,0.010342,-0.007432,0.000507,0.004525,0.008254,0.001373,0.007 296,-0.005916,0.012773,0.003592
FRA_IA:ATT26,0.1161,0.132019,0.044877,0.039083,0.0 38776,0.013108,-0.006815,0.011999,0.014112,0.020957,-0.001299,0.007793,-0.024678,-0.011836,0.007872,0.007027,0.006128,0.008361,0.010 307,-0.013632,0.003993,0.00779,0.020706,0.000482,0.0087 42
FRA_IA:BES1248,0.12862,0.127957,0.064488,0.042636, 0.043085,0.027052,0.007755,-0.003461,0.001636,0.007836,0.010718,0.011839,-0.00892,-0.007569,0.016015,-0.000663,-0.001434,0.004687,-0.015461,0.004002,0.01984,-0.002597,-0.009367,0.008555,-0.016765
FRA_IA:BFM265,0.122929,0.148267,0.05242,0.037468,0 .047086,0.018128,-0.00235,-0.000231,0.008795,0.012392,-0.007957,0.005695,-0.015312,-0.007844,0.020765,-0.003182,-0.016428,0.009122,0.006034,0.007504,-0.002246,0.000124,0.001109,-0.00012,0.002036
FRA_IA:COL11,0.122929,0.13405,0.058454,0.064923,0. 037238,0.020917,-0.008225,0.01223,0.008795,0.011116,-0.002273,0.002548,-0.016353,-0.003991,0.017508,-0.008221,-0.014603,-0.005954,0.006662,0.005378,0.006489,0.008161,0.010 106,-0.001446,0.000599
FRA_IA:COL153A,0.130897,0.158423,0.045254,0.02584, 0.036622,0.012271,0.006815,0.008538,0.003272,0.015 126,0.009419,-0.007194,0.001189,-0.000963,0.005022,0.003182,-0.013038,0.00038,0.016592,0.001,-0.015847,0.007543,0.000863,-0.018798,0.005389
FRA_IA:COL153i,0.120652,0.127957,0.046763,0.024548 ,0.045239,-0.006136,0.015276,0.004154,0.015748,0.034078,-0.00341,0.017235,-0.022448,-0.010459,0.012622,-0.026518,0.005476,0.008868,-0.001131,0.015883,-0.000749,-0.000742,-0.010476,0.003253,0.008143
FRA_IA:ERS86,0.122929,0.161469,0.040729,0.030039,0 .040623,0.008646,-0.010105,0.005077,0.006954,0.007289,-0.00065,0.005845,-0.010852,-0.002752,0.005157,0.021745,-0.004172,0.009755,0.011313,-0.005753,0.000624,0.012365,-0.004683,-0.012893,0.00012
FRA_IA:ERS88,0.130897,0.155376,0.044123,0.005168,0 .033237,0.000837,-0.004935,-0.005769,0.011249,0.02442,-0.004872,-0.001499,-0.023042,-0.016239,0.012079,-0.017104,-0.014603,-0.006461,-0.014204,-0.002251,-0.002496,0.000742,0.001356,0,0.000239
FRA_IA:ERS1164,0.124067,0.121864,0.052797,0.030039 ,0.033237,0.010877,0.011516,0.00923,0,0.019135,-0.002598,-0.01154,-0.01115,-0.012799,0.009908,0.006364,-0.002738,0.00038,0.001257,-0.004627,-0.007487,0.003957,0.002218,-0.011809,0.005389
FRA_IA:Jeb8,0.118376,0.138112,0.05506,0.027132,0.0 45239,-0.008367,-0.00329,0.003461,0.012271,0.010023,-0.00341,0.007194,-0.020812,-0.010046,0.016694,0.007425,-0.000391,-0.001647,0.000377,0.005378,-0.003868,-0.00136,-0.009983,-0.003615,0.007065
FRA_IA:NOR2B6,0.120652,0.147252,0.044877,0.005814, 0.0397,0.003347,-0.010105,0.007384,0.016975,0.014943,0.010718,0.011 09,-0.008771,-0.004542,0.012215,0.018165,0.027772,0.004941,0.005 405,0.002876,0.006364,-0.007543,-0.001109,-0.00253,-0.007784
FRA_IA:NOR3-6,0.133173,0.146236,0.050157,0.046189,0.029852,0.0 17291,-0.007755,0.005077,0.012885,0.001276,-0.002598,0.015137,-0.022745,-0.013212,0.020087,-0.007823,-0.021383,0.007095,-0.001006,0.006753,0.004866,0.005193,-0.002835,-0.007953,-0.000239
FRA_IA:NOR3-15,0.117238,0.149283,0.061471,0.022287,0.043393,-0.005299,0.005405,-0.001615,0.013703,0.018224,-0.005196,0.00045,-0.014569,-0.012111,0.022394,-0.005171,-0.019558,-0.006841,-0.004902,0.013381,-0.002121,-0.002844,-0.015652,-0.003615,0.002395
FRA_IA:NOR4,0.12862,0.151314,0.058454,0.001615,0.0 46778,-0.006136,-0.000705,0.014538,0.023929,0.031345,-0.013153,0.006594,-0.022448,-0.016377,-0.016965,0.004773,0.005737,-0.010135,0.011941,0.005503,0.006239,0.006183,-0.011462,0.007471,-0.002994
FRA_IA:PEY53,0.133173,0.139128,0.050534,0.039083,0 .050163,0.010598,-0.006345,-0.000692,0.008181,0.005103,-0.001624,0.016935,-0.019326,-0.007844,0.029451,-0.001724,-0.008996,0.003674,0.005028,-0.007128,0.010606,0.005193,-0.01861,-0.006507,0.008023
ITA_IA:_Boville_Ernica_IA,0.126344,0.152329,0.0343 18,-0.014535,0.054164,-0.01506,-0.001175,0.005307,0.019634,0.041914,0.005196,0.010 79,-0.011001,-0.005643,0.004479,-0.016441,-0.010822,-0.001394,0.006662,-0.01113,0.007736,0.007172,-0.007641,-0.00241,0.008981
ITA_IA:_Ardea_Latini_IA,0.133173,0.156392,0.0445,-0.00969,0.044008,-0.004462,0.00846,0.003,0.024543,0.044101,-0.002598,0.012289,-0.022448,-0.009634,-0.005429,-0.005834,0.00352,0.003167,0.006034,-0.007379,-0.008859,0.005317,-0.000863,-0.006989,-0.001796
ITA_IA:_Etruscan,0.126913,0.153853,0.034695,-0.014212,0.0417,-0.005299,0.0024675,-0.002769,0.019839,0.0343515,-0.0023545,0.014237,-0.014792,-0.004335,-0.00475,-0.007823,-0.0028035,0.0052575,0.011564,-0.001188,-0.002558,0.003771,-6.15e-05,-0.0004215,-0.002694
ITA_IA:_Prenestini_tribe_IA,0.12862,0.145221,0.047 14,0.005491,0.046162,0.00251,-0.00282,0.002769,0.021475,0.039727,-0.002923,0.012289,-0.021407,-0.016239,0.012622,0.000398,-0.003129,0.003421,0.00176,-0.001251,0.004492,0.003586,-0.00456,-0.003976,0.000239
ITA_IA:_Rome_Latini_IA,0.127482,0.147252,0.033187,-0.016796,0.044008,-0.008646,-0.00376,-0.004846,0.026588,0.052666,-0.002761,0.015137,-0.036719,-0.008533,-0.009093,0.013392,0.016037,-0.004687,0.003897,0.004127,0.00262,-0.00272,0.001972,-0.007712,-0.008742
ITA_IA:_Villanovan,0.12862,0.156392,0.042238,-0.024225,0.052933,-0.008367,-0.001645,-0.005307,0.023725,0.040274,0.006008,0.006894,-0.018285,-0.019405,-0.003529,0.008751,0.025686,0.002914,0.004651,0.004 252,0.00574,0.006059,-0.006286,-0.010604,-0.002515
Iberia_East_IA,0.1244941,0.1489018,0.0564739,0.002 1802,0.0598572,-0.0031725,-0.0036426,0.0044711,0.0299882,0.0468802,-0.0047092,0.0111088,-0.0233585,-0.0145191,0.0078549,0.0056351,0.0067799,0.0016153, 0.0038024,-0.0010318,0.0055682,-9.26e-05,-0.007364,-0.0123961,-0.0011226
GRC:_Minoan_Lassithi,0.1192866,0.170609,-0.0181772,-0.093993,0.0295438,-0.0398256,-0.001316,-0.0034614,0.0103488,0.0598102,0.0029878,0.0153164,-0.0251238,-5.48e-05,-0.0374586,-0.0109518,0.0173934,-0.0012414,0.0088742,-0.0136316,-0.0133764,0.0083836,-0.0050776,-0.0010604,-0.0024428
GRC:_Mycenaean,0.107847,0.1563915,-0.008108,-0.0646808,0.0216962,-0.0271222,-0.0005288,-0.0021345,0.00542,0.047336,0.005521,0.0169352,-0.012785,-0.0006195,-0.0163882,-0.0098118,0.0210245,0.0036108,0.0123188,-0.0039705,-0.0058648,0.0001858,-0.0065935,0.0011448,-0.0007185
GRC:Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2,0.118376,0.158423,-0.009051,-0.0670225,0.0252355,-0.027889,0.001645,-0.005077,0.0049085,0.042552,0.002842,0.01124,-0.016873,0.003578,-0.018526,-0.0157785,0.0035855,0.0003805,0.004588,-0.0126935,-0.008298,0.001546,0.001664,0.0071095,-0.008502
ITA_Rome_Imperial,0.1039821,0.1495156,-0.0235307,-0.0574065,0.0045265,-0.0204055,-0.0011946,-0.0051488,0.0006604,0.0196549,0.0034575,0.0025539,-0.0040602,-0.0014737,-0.0081715,-0.0014474,0.0035992,0.000454,0.0012178,-0.0032854,-0.0025579,0.0020454,-0.0006985,-0.0004845,0.0004141
Levant_Ashkelon_IA2,0.0789173,0.1411587,-0.0600877,-0.1049757,-0.0165157,-0.0365343,-0.0036033,-0.017461,0.0156117,0.011906,0.0060623,-0.007094,0.0225967,-0.003991,-0.010541,0.0114467,0.00339,-0.005574,-0.005447,0.0036683,0.0041593,0.0037097,-0.0047657,-0.007471,0.0026343
Canary_Islands_Guanche,-0.0393828,0.1314096,-0.0023384,-0.0687344,0.0337292,-0.0363672,-0.0299874,0.008261,0.0708878,0.0305428,0.0075674,-0.0059948,0.0182554,-0.0176982,0.0232082,-0.0130468,0.0031814,-0.019206,-0.044321,0.010405,-0.0134762,-0.0377142,0.0232692,-0.0011806,0.0046224
Ashkenazi_OG:Ashk_DE_DE_1,0.094473,0.142174,-0.021496,-0.057171,0.01231,-0.023427,0.003055,-0.003923,0.010226,0.01877,0.000812,-0.001199,0.003271,-0.001101,-0.0057,0.012861,0.013038,-0.003167,0.001257,0.003377,-0.00025,-0.006925,-0.00456,0.000723,-0.003952
Ashkenazi_OG:Ashk_DE_DE_4,0.101303,0.148267,-0.019233,-0.049419,0.008925,-0.020359,0,0,0.014112,0.021686,0.003897,-0.002098,0.003419,-0.005092,-0.004886,0.000796,-0.003129,0.004941,0.002891,0.003377,0.002246,0.001 36,-0.005916,-0.001205,-0.000718
Ashkenazi_OG:Ashk_DE_DE_6,0.091058,0.142174,-0.015085,-0.050065,0.010156,-0.020638,-0.00188,-0.003923,0.00634,0.021504,0.002273,0.001349,0.0004 46,-0.006331,-0.005972,0.010209,0.016689,-0.005701,-0.006034,0.003252,-0.003868,-0.005441,0.002465,0.003133,0.00491
Italo-Romaniote_OG_4.0:Romaniote3,0.095611,0.146236,-0.028284,-0.069122,0.005539,-0.02259,-0.005405,-0.004384,0.007567,0.015672,0.007632,0.004346,0.002 676,0.003441,-0.009908,-0.013392,-0.013299,-0.003674,0.000377,-0.005253,-0.006489,0.002597,0.006286,0.00253,-0.000599
Italo-Romaniote_OG_4.0:Italian_Jew:ItalyJew5,0.091058,0. 147252,-0.032809,-0.065892,0.00677,-0.023985,-0.002115,-0.003,0.011658,0.016948,0.004872,0.001199,0.001784 ,0.003303,-0.010858,-0.013524,-0.011735,-0.003294,-0.001257,-0.010005,-0.005865,0.005193,0.000863,0.002169,0.002994
Italo-Romaniote_OG_4.0:Romaniote7,0.088782,0.14319,-0.032432,-0.063954,-0.00277,-0.016733,-0.006815,-0.005538,0.007567,0.014214,0.003573,0.002997,-0.004906,0.005367,-0.008143,-0.016441,-0.014994,-0.004307,0.006536,-0.007754,-0.001373,0.002473,0.001972,-0.005302,0.007065
Roman_Jew_OG?:RMPR130,0.103579,0.150298,-0.037335,-0.063308,-0.001846,-0.021753,0.00047,-0.010846,0.003681,0.030069,0.008444,-0.001948,-0.003419,-0.002064,-0.00285,-0.009546,0.002868,0.002534,-0.000628,-0.000875,0.004118,0.001855,-0.013557,-0.001325,-0.00455
Roman_Jew_OG?:RMPR38,0.102441,0.157407,-0.0445,-0.08075,-0.017542,-0.031236,-0.00423,-0.008538,-0.013908,0.016766,0.002598,-0.001049,-0.003271,0.006744,-0.007736,-0.010475,-0.011083,0.001014,0.004902,-0.004252,0.001497,0.003462,-0.001232,-0.00012,-0.001796

There you go:


Target: Ella_scaled
Distance: 1.5468% / 0.01546751
50.8 FRA_IA
39.8 England_Saxon
6.8 Italo-Romaniote_OG_4.0
2.6 ITA_IA

It's very similar to the basic model I used to use with FRA_IA:


DEU_MA,0.1223596,0.1303939,0.061169,0.048773,0.039 792,0.0199408,0.010975,0.0052151,0.0013295,-0.0024966,-0.003735,0.001109,-0.0091576,-0.0038398,0.0161643,-0.0008352,-0.0133511,0.0032684,0.0041354,0.0040271,0.0060019, 0.0037342,-0.0007273,0.011146,-0.0004429
FRA_IA_north,0.1195145,0.140143,0.0486485,0.038275 5,0.042931,0.015618,-0.0045825,0.005884,0.0114535,0.0166745,-0.004628,0.006744,-0.019995,-0.00984,0.0143185,0.0019225,-0.00515,0.0087415,0.0081705,-0.003064,0.0008735,0.003957,0.0109075,0.000181,0.0 05389
FRA_IA_central,0.1245845455,0.1446669091,0.0507399 091,0.0257812727,0.0391961818,0.0043861818,-0.0005552727,0.0056640909,0.0114346364,0.016997727 3,-0.0016384545,0.0041690909,-0.0156364545,-0.0094082727,0.010611,-0.0002893636,-0.0046819091,3.46363636363638E-005,0.0029367273,0.0039564545,-0.000726,0.0028777273,-0.003787,-0.0047213636,0.0016656364
FRA_IA_south,0.1308965,0.1335425,0.057511,0.040859 5,0.046624,0.018825,0.000705,-0.0020765,0.0049085,0.0064695,0.004547,0.014387,-0.014123,-0.0077065,0.022733,-0.0011935,-0.005215,0.0041805,-0.0052165,-0.001563,0.015223,0.001298,-0.0139885,0.001024,-0.004371
ITA_IA:_Boville_Ernica_IA,0.126344,0.152329,0.0343 18,-0.014535,0.054164,-0.01506,-0.001175,0.005307,0.019634,0.041914,0.005196,0.010 79,-0.011001,-0.005643,0.004479,-0.016441,-0.010822,-0.001394,0.006662,-0.01113,0.007736,0.007172,-0.007641,-0.00241,0.008981
ITA_IA:_Ardea_Latini_IA,0.133173,0.156392,0.0445,-0.00969,0.044008,-0.004462,0.00846,0.003,0.024543,0.044101,-0.002598,0.012289,-0.022448,-0.009634,-0.005429,-0.005834,0.00352,0.003167,0.006034,-0.007379,-0.008859,0.005317,-0.000863,-0.006989,-0.001796
ITA_IA:_Etruscan,0.126913,0.153853,0.034695,-0.014212,0.0417,-0.005299,0.0024675,-0.002769,0.019839,0.0343515,-0.0023545,0.014237,-0.014792,-0.004335,-0.00475,-0.007823,-0.0028035,0.0052575,0.011564,-0.001188,-0.002558,0.003771,-6.15e-05,-0.0004215,-0.002694
ITA_IA:_Prenestini_tribe_IA,0.12862,0.145221,0.047 14,0.005491,0.046162,0.00251,-0.00282,0.002769,0.021475,0.039727,-0.002923,0.012289,-0.021407,-0.016239,0.012622,0.000398,-0.003129,0.003421,0.00176,-0.001251,0.004492,0.003586,-0.00456,-0.003976,0.000239
ITA_IA:_Rome_Latini_IA,0.127482,0.147252,0.033187,-0.016796,0.044008,-0.008646,-0.00376,-0.004846,0.026588,0.052666,-0.002761,0.015137,-0.036719,-0.008533,-0.009093,0.013392,0.016037,-0.004687,0.003897,0.004127,0.00262,-0.00272,0.001972,-0.007712,-0.008742
ITA_IA:_Villanovan,0.12862,0.156392,0.042238,-0.024225,0.052933,-0.008367,-0.001645,-0.005307,0.023725,0.040274,0.006008,0.006894,-0.018285,-0.019405,-0.003529,0.008751,0.025686,0.002914,0.004651,0.004 252,0.00574,0.006059,-0.006286,-0.010604,-0.002515
Iberia_East_IA,0.1244941,0.1489018,0.0564739,0.002 1802,0.0598572,-0.0031725,-0.0036426,0.0044711,0.0299882,0.0468802,-0.0047092,0.0111088,-0.0233585,-0.0145191,0.0078549,0.0056351,0.0067799,0.0016153, 0.0038024,-0.0010318,0.0055682,-9.26e-05,-0.007364,-0.0123961,-0.0011226
GRC:_Minoan_Lassithi,0.1192866,0.170609,-0.0181772,-0.093993,0.0295438,-0.0398256,-0.001316,-0.0034614,0.0103488,0.0598102,0.0029878,0.0153164,-0.0251238,-5.48e-05,-0.0374586,-0.0109518,0.0173934,-0.0012414,0.0088742,-0.0136316,-0.0133764,0.0083836,-0.0050776,-0.0010604,-0.0024428
GRC:_Mycenaean,0.107847,0.1563915,-0.008108,-0.0646808,0.0216962,-0.0271222,-0.0005288,-0.0021345,0.00542,0.047336,0.005521,0.0169352,-0.012785,-0.0006195,-0.0163882,-0.0098118,0.0210245,0.0036108,0.0123188,-0.0039705,-0.0058648,0.0001858,-0.0065935,0.0011448,-0.0007185
GRC:Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2,0.118376,0.158423,-0.009051,-0.0670225,0.0252355,-0.027889,0.001645,-0.005077,0.0049085,0.042552,0.002842,0.01124,-0.016873,0.003578,-0.018526,-0.0157785,0.0035855,0.0003805,0.004588,-0.0126935,-0.008298,0.001546,0.001664,0.0071095,-0.008502
ITA_Rome_Imperial,0.1039821,0.1495156,-0.0235307,-0.0574065,0.0045265,-0.0204055,-0.0011946,-0.0051488,0.0006604,0.0196549,0.0034575,0.0025539,-0.0040602,-0.0014737,-0.0081715,-0.0014474,0.0035992,0.000454,0.0012178,-0.0032854,-0.0025579,0.0020454,-0.0006985,-0.0004845,0.0004141
Levant_Ashkelon_IA2,0.0789173,0.1411587,-0.0600877,-0.1049757,-0.0165157,-0.0365343,-0.0036033,-0.017461,0.0156117,0.011906,0.0060623,-0.007094,0.0225967,-0.003991,-0.010541,0.0114467,0.00339,-0.005574,-0.005447,0.0036683,0.0041593,0.0037097,-0.0047657,-0.007471,0.0026343
Canary_Islands_Guanche,-0.0393828,0.1314096,-0.0023384,-0.0687344,0.0337292,-0.0363672,-0.0299874,0.008261,0.0708878,0.0305428,0.0075674,-0.0059948,0.0182554,-0.0176982,0.0232082,-0.0130468,0.0031814,-0.019206,-0.044321,0.010405,-0.0134762,-0.0377142,0.0232692,-0.0011806,0.0046224


For which the results are:

Target: Ella_scaled
Distance: 1.7915% / 0.01791462
49.4 DEU_MA
24.4 FRA_IA_north
18.4 ITA_IA
4.4 ITA_Rome_Imperial
3.4 GRC


But I'm not comfortable using such low coverage samples - even though they seem to work quite okay for my mom. But not for actual French people, who don't score that much French IA with these samples - if any at all.

Dewsloth
11-03-2020, 10:00 PM
Finn model:

Target: DewslothDad_scaled
Distance: 0.8493% / 0.00849260
44.8 England_Saxon
29.4 FRA_IA
14.4 ITA_IA
4.8 Italo-Romaniote_OG_4.0
4.6 Ashkenazi_OG
2.0 Levant_Ashkelon_IA2

Edit -- Unaggregated:

Target: DewslothDad_scaled
Distance: 0.8489% / 0.00848944
44.6 England_Saxon:I0159
14.0 ITA_IA:_Ardea_Latini_IA
10.4 FRA_IA:BES1248
8.0 FRA_IA:ERS1164
6.6 FRA_IA:COL153i
5.2 Ashkenazi_OG:Ashk_DE_DE_1
5.2 Italo-Romaniote_OG_4.0:Italian_Jew:ItalyJew5
4.6 FRA_IA:NOR4
1.4 Levant_Ashkelon_IA2

Baltimore1937
11-04-2020, 12:40 AM
My two cents worth: The Thirty Years War saw a disruption of Germans in the Rhine area. Catholics were killed or driven away, and Protestant Germans moved in. Also Protestant refugees from the east (Habsburg Empire, etc.) settled there. Many later kept going to America.

Kellebel
11-04-2020, 05:49 PM
I am even more of a novice at this than you are, but to me the German (DEU) are too England IA or vise versa to be used together without over fitting, its either one or the other.

Oh no, not at all! I'm actually very humbled by all of the expertise here and I'm pretty sure I'm the biggest noob around. :lol: I thank you very much for your input and I'll be definitely looking at it the upcoming days, play around a bit and see if there's a proper solution for it!

Kellebel
11-04-2020, 05:56 PM
Just give it a shot ;)

40975


England_Saxon:I0159,0.130897,0.135065,0.062979,0.0 53618,0.038161,0.023148,0.00329,0.006461,0.001023,-0.000729,-0.001299,0.006894,-0.014569,-0.010322,0.028366,0.010342,-0.007432,0.000507,0.004525,0.008254,0.001373,0.007 296,-0.005916,0.012773,0.003592
FRA_IA:ATT26,0.1161,0.132019,0.044877,0.039083,0.0 38776,0.013108,-0.006815,0.011999,0.014112,0.020957,-0.001299,0.007793,-0.024678,-0.011836,0.007872,0.007027,0.006128,0.008361,0.010 307,-0.013632,0.003993,0.00779,0.020706,0.000482,0.0087 42
FRA_IA:BES1248,0.12862,0.127957,0.064488,0.042636, 0.043085,0.027052,0.007755,-0.003461,0.001636,0.007836,0.010718,0.011839,-0.00892,-0.007569,0.016015,-0.000663,-0.001434,0.004687,-0.015461,0.004002,0.01984,-0.002597,-0.009367,0.008555,-0.016765
FRA_IA:BFM265,0.122929,0.148267,0.05242,0.037468,0 .047086,0.018128,-0.00235,-0.000231,0.008795,0.012392,-0.007957,0.005695,-0.015312,-0.007844,0.020765,-0.003182,-0.016428,0.009122,0.006034,0.007504,-0.002246,0.000124,0.001109,-0.00012,0.002036
FRA_IA:COL11,0.122929,0.13405,0.058454,0.064923,0. 037238,0.020917,-0.008225,0.01223,0.008795,0.011116,-0.002273,0.002548,-0.016353,-0.003991,0.017508,-0.008221,-0.014603,-0.005954,0.006662,0.005378,0.006489,0.008161,0.010 106,-0.001446,0.000599
FRA_IA:COL153A,0.130897,0.158423,0.045254,0.02584, 0.036622,0.012271,0.006815,0.008538,0.003272,0.015 126,0.009419,-0.007194,0.001189,-0.000963,0.005022,0.003182,-0.013038,0.00038,0.016592,0.001,-0.015847,0.007543,0.000863,-0.018798,0.005389
FRA_IA:COL153i,0.120652,0.127957,0.046763,0.024548 ,0.045239,-0.006136,0.015276,0.004154,0.015748,0.034078,-0.00341,0.017235,-0.022448,-0.010459,0.012622,-0.026518,0.005476,0.008868,-0.001131,0.015883,-0.000749,-0.000742,-0.010476,0.003253,0.008143
FRA_IA:ERS86,0.122929,0.161469,0.040729,0.030039,0 .040623,0.008646,-0.010105,0.005077,0.006954,0.007289,-0.00065,0.005845,-0.010852,-0.002752,0.005157,0.021745,-0.004172,0.009755,0.011313,-0.005753,0.000624,0.012365,-0.004683,-0.012893,0.00012
FRA_IA:ERS88,0.130897,0.155376,0.044123,0.005168,0 .033237,0.000837,-0.004935,-0.005769,0.011249,0.02442,-0.004872,-0.001499,-0.023042,-0.016239,0.012079,-0.017104,-0.014603,-0.006461,-0.014204,-0.002251,-0.002496,0.000742,0.001356,0,0.000239
FRA_IA:ERS1164,0.124067,0.121864,0.052797,0.030039 ,0.033237,0.010877,0.011516,0.00923,0,0.019135,-0.002598,-0.01154,-0.01115,-0.012799,0.009908,0.006364,-0.002738,0.00038,0.001257,-0.004627,-0.007487,0.003957,0.002218,-0.011809,0.005389
FRA_IA:Jeb8,0.118376,0.138112,0.05506,0.027132,0.0 45239,-0.008367,-0.00329,0.003461,0.012271,0.010023,-0.00341,0.007194,-0.020812,-0.010046,0.016694,0.007425,-0.000391,-0.001647,0.000377,0.005378,-0.003868,-0.00136,-0.009983,-0.003615,0.007065
FRA_IA:NOR2B6,0.120652,0.147252,0.044877,0.005814, 0.0397,0.003347,-0.010105,0.007384,0.016975,0.014943,0.010718,0.011 09,-0.008771,-0.004542,0.012215,0.018165,0.027772,0.004941,0.005 405,0.002876,0.006364,-0.007543,-0.001109,-0.00253,-0.007784
FRA_IA:NOR3-6,0.133173,0.146236,0.050157,0.046189,0.029852,0.0 17291,-0.007755,0.005077,0.012885,0.001276,-0.002598,0.015137,-0.022745,-0.013212,0.020087,-0.007823,-0.021383,0.007095,-0.001006,0.006753,0.004866,0.005193,-0.002835,-0.007953,-0.000239
FRA_IA:NOR3-15,0.117238,0.149283,0.061471,0.022287,0.043393,-0.005299,0.005405,-0.001615,0.013703,0.018224,-0.005196,0.00045,-0.014569,-0.012111,0.022394,-0.005171,-0.019558,-0.006841,-0.004902,0.013381,-0.002121,-0.002844,-0.015652,-0.003615,0.002395
FRA_IA:NOR4,0.12862,0.151314,0.058454,0.001615,0.0 46778,-0.006136,-0.000705,0.014538,0.023929,0.031345,-0.013153,0.006594,-0.022448,-0.016377,-0.016965,0.004773,0.005737,-0.010135,0.011941,0.005503,0.006239,0.006183,-0.011462,0.007471,-0.002994
FRA_IA:PEY53,0.133173,0.139128,0.050534,0.039083,0 .050163,0.010598,-0.006345,-0.000692,0.008181,0.005103,-0.001624,0.016935,-0.019326,-0.007844,0.029451,-0.001724,-0.008996,0.003674,0.005028,-0.007128,0.010606,0.005193,-0.01861,-0.006507,0.008023
ITA_IA:_Boville_Ernica_IA,0.126344,0.152329,0.0343 18,-0.014535,0.054164,-0.01506,-0.001175,0.005307,0.019634,0.041914,0.005196,0.010 79,-0.011001,-0.005643,0.004479,-0.016441,-0.010822,-0.001394,0.006662,-0.01113,0.007736,0.007172,-0.007641,-0.00241,0.008981
ITA_IA:_Ardea_Latini_IA,0.133173,0.156392,0.0445,-0.00969,0.044008,-0.004462,0.00846,0.003,0.024543,0.044101,-0.002598,0.012289,-0.022448,-0.009634,-0.005429,-0.005834,0.00352,0.003167,0.006034,-0.007379,-0.008859,0.005317,-0.000863,-0.006989,-0.001796
ITA_IA:_Etruscan,0.126913,0.153853,0.034695,-0.014212,0.0417,-0.005299,0.0024675,-0.002769,0.019839,0.0343515,-0.0023545,0.014237,-0.014792,-0.004335,-0.00475,-0.007823,-0.0028035,0.0052575,0.011564,-0.001188,-0.002558,0.003771,-6.15e-05,-0.0004215,-0.002694
ITA_IA:_Prenestini_tribe_IA,0.12862,0.145221,0.047 14,0.005491,0.046162,0.00251,-0.00282,0.002769,0.021475,0.039727,-0.002923,0.012289,-0.021407,-0.016239,0.012622,0.000398,-0.003129,0.003421,0.00176,-0.001251,0.004492,0.003586,-0.00456,-0.003976,0.000239
ITA_IA:_Rome_Latini_IA,0.127482,0.147252,0.033187,-0.016796,0.044008,-0.008646,-0.00376,-0.004846,0.026588,0.052666,-0.002761,0.015137,-0.036719,-0.008533,-0.009093,0.013392,0.016037,-0.004687,0.003897,0.004127,0.00262,-0.00272,0.001972,-0.007712,-0.008742
ITA_IA:_Villanovan,0.12862,0.156392,0.042238,-0.024225,0.052933,-0.008367,-0.001645,-0.005307,0.023725,0.040274,0.006008,0.006894,-0.018285,-0.019405,-0.003529,0.008751,0.025686,0.002914,0.004651,0.004 252,0.00574,0.006059,-0.006286,-0.010604,-0.002515
Iberia_East_IA,0.1244941,0.1489018,0.0564739,0.002 1802,0.0598572,-0.0031725,-0.0036426,0.0044711,0.0299882,0.0468802,-0.0047092,0.0111088,-0.0233585,-0.0145191,0.0078549,0.0056351,0.0067799,0.0016153, 0.0038024,-0.0010318,0.0055682,-9.26e-05,-0.007364,-0.0123961,-0.0011226
GRC:_Minoan_Lassithi,0.1192866,0.170609,-0.0181772,-0.093993,0.0295438,-0.0398256,-0.001316,-0.0034614,0.0103488,0.0598102,0.0029878,0.0153164,-0.0251238,-5.48e-05,-0.0374586,-0.0109518,0.0173934,-0.0012414,0.0088742,-0.0136316,-0.0133764,0.0083836,-0.0050776,-0.0010604,-0.0024428
GRC:_Mycenaean,0.107847,0.1563915,-0.008108,-0.0646808,0.0216962,-0.0271222,-0.0005288,-0.0021345,0.00542,0.047336,0.005521,0.0169352,-0.012785,-0.0006195,-0.0163882,-0.0098118,0.0210245,0.0036108,0.0123188,-0.0039705,-0.0058648,0.0001858,-0.0065935,0.0011448,-0.0007185
GRC:Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2,0.118376,0.158423,-0.009051,-0.0670225,0.0252355,-0.027889,0.001645,-0.005077,0.0049085,0.042552,0.002842,0.01124,-0.016873,0.003578,-0.018526,-0.0157785,0.0035855,0.0003805,0.004588,-0.0126935,-0.008298,0.001546,0.001664,0.0071095,-0.008502
ITA_Rome_Imperial,0.1039821,0.1495156,-0.0235307,-0.0574065,0.0045265,-0.0204055,-0.0011946,-0.0051488,0.0006604,0.0196549,0.0034575,0.0025539,-0.0040602,-0.0014737,-0.0081715,-0.0014474,0.0035992,0.000454,0.0012178,-0.0032854,-0.0025579,0.0020454,-0.0006985,-0.0004845,0.0004141
Levant_Ashkelon_IA2,0.0789173,0.1411587,-0.0600877,-0.1049757,-0.0165157,-0.0365343,-0.0036033,-0.017461,0.0156117,0.011906,0.0060623,-0.007094,0.0225967,-0.003991,-0.010541,0.0114467,0.00339,-0.005574,-0.005447,0.0036683,0.0041593,0.0037097,-0.0047657,-0.007471,0.0026343
Canary_Islands_Guanche,-0.0393828,0.1314096,-0.0023384,-0.0687344,0.0337292,-0.0363672,-0.0299874,0.008261,0.0708878,0.0305428,0.0075674,-0.0059948,0.0182554,-0.0176982,0.0232082,-0.0130468,0.0031814,-0.019206,-0.044321,0.010405,-0.0134762,-0.0377142,0.0232692,-0.0011806,0.0046224
Ashkenazi_OG:Ashk_DE_DE_1,0.094473,0.142174,-0.021496,-0.057171,0.01231,-0.023427,0.003055,-0.003923,0.010226,0.01877,0.000812,-0.001199,0.003271,-0.001101,-0.0057,0.012861,0.013038,-0.003167,0.001257,0.003377,-0.00025,-0.006925,-0.00456,0.000723,-0.003952
Ashkenazi_OG:Ashk_DE_DE_4,0.101303,0.148267,-0.019233,-0.049419,0.008925,-0.020359,0,0,0.014112,0.021686,0.003897,-0.002098,0.003419,-0.005092,-0.004886,0.000796,-0.003129,0.004941,0.002891,0.003377,0.002246,0.001 36,-0.005916,-0.001205,-0.000718
Ashkenazi_OG:Ashk_DE_DE_6,0.091058,0.142174,-0.015085,-0.050065,0.010156,-0.020638,-0.00188,-0.003923,0.00634,0.021504,0.002273,0.001349,0.0004 46,-0.006331,-0.005972,0.010209,0.016689,-0.005701,-0.006034,0.003252,-0.003868,-0.005441,0.002465,0.003133,0.00491
Italo-Romaniote_OG_4.0:Romaniote3,0.095611,0.146236,-0.028284,-0.069122,0.005539,-0.02259,-0.005405,-0.004384,0.007567,0.015672,0.007632,0.004346,0.002 676,0.003441,-0.009908,-0.013392,-0.013299,-0.003674,0.000377,-0.005253,-0.006489,0.002597,0.006286,0.00253,-0.000599
Italo-Romaniote_OG_4.0:Italian_Jew:ItalyJew5,0.091058,0. 147252,-0.032809,-0.065892,0.00677,-0.023985,-0.002115,-0.003,0.011658,0.016948,0.004872,0.001199,0.001784 ,0.003303,-0.010858,-0.013524,-0.011735,-0.003294,-0.001257,-0.010005,-0.005865,0.005193,0.000863,0.002169,0.002994
Italo-Romaniote_OG_4.0:Romaniote7,0.088782,0.14319,-0.032432,-0.063954,-0.00277,-0.016733,-0.006815,-0.005538,0.007567,0.014214,0.003573,0.002997,-0.004906,0.005367,-0.008143,-0.016441,-0.014994,-0.004307,0.006536,-0.007754,-0.001373,0.002473,0.001972,-0.005302,0.007065
Roman_Jew_OG?:RMPR130,0.103579,0.150298,-0.037335,-0.063308,-0.001846,-0.021753,0.00047,-0.010846,0.003681,0.030069,0.008444,-0.001948,-0.003419,-0.002064,-0.00285,-0.009546,0.002868,0.002534,-0.000628,-0.000875,0.004118,0.001855,-0.013557,-0.001325,-0.00455
Roman_Jew_OG?:RMPR38,0.102441,0.157407,-0.0445,-0.08075,-0.017542,-0.031236,-0.00423,-0.008538,-0.013908,0.016766,0.002598,-0.001049,-0.003271,0.006744,-0.007736,-0.010475,-0.011083,0.001014,0.004902,-0.004252,0.001497,0.003462,-0.001232,-0.00012,-0.001796

I've tried replacing the DEU_MA and England_IA with your Saxon sample just to see what happens, but it isn't really giving great results*. What's the reason behind the choice of this sample in particular, Finn, if I may ask? Does it work well for your family?


*Edit to add the results we're getting to those who are curious:


Target: Ella_scaled
Distance: 1.9037% / 0.01903731
64.2 England_Saxon
26.4 ITA_IA
7.2 Italo-Romaniote_OG_4.0
1.4 Ashkenazi_OG
0.8 Canary_Islands_Guanche

Target: Pao_scaled
Distance: 1.9728% / 0.01972768
68.4 England_Saxon
30.2 ITA_IA
1.4 Ashkenazi_OG

Finn
11-04-2020, 06:39 PM
I've tried replacing the DEU_MA and England_IA with your Saxon sample just to see what happens, but it isn't really giving great results*. What's the reason behind the choice of this sample in particular, Finn, if I may ask? Does it work well for your family?


*Edit to add the results we're getting to those who are curious:

The Anglo-Saxons came not only to England but also to the Northern Netherlands, that's why. And I guess that's also the reason why the Saxons plot so close to the Finn's.

Johnny ola
11-04-2020, 06:43 PM
The Anglo-Saxons came not only to England but also to the Northern Netherlands, that's why. And I guess that's also the reason why the Saxons plot so close to the Finn's.

Do you speak any northsea Germanic dialect?Or the typical Dutch only?

Frisian for example?

JMcB
11-04-2020, 07:22 PM
I assume you took DEU_MA out of the source and put it into target? I would haven't suspected it to be very much different, as the other components in the model are too distant/different. The initial logic behind including both England_IA and DEU_MA is to capture both the "Celtic" and "Germanic" affinity of the local population from Limburg:




If I had to choose, I'm not sure which one I should go for. If you see the distances, you might want to say DEU_MA, as its closest population is Dutch, but both my mother and grandmother are actually closer to Welsh (England_IA's closest population) than Dutch..
Nor would I have any clue what singular sample would represent the local Celto-Germanic population better than these two together with the more continental Italian IA samples. Unfortunately, with the lack of (qualitative) Gaulish and IA Dutch samples, the only way to do this is to work around it. :noidea:

So if anyone has any suggestions, please!


Perhaps, I’m missing something but your DEU_MA sample doesn’t look 90% England_IA to me.


Distance to: DEU_MA
0.01492859 VK2020_DNK_Langeland_VA
0.01773391 VK2020_GreenlandE_VA
0.01800467 VK2020_SWE_Skara_VA
0.01854785 VK2020_NOR_Mid_MA
0.01880897 VK2020_ISL_Hofstadir_VA
0.01897655 VK2020_Faroes_EM
0.01942952 VK2020_DNK_Sealand_VA
0.01988935 VK2020_SWE_Oland_VA
0.02014687 VK2020_England_Oxford_VA
0.02038826 England_Roman
0.02056778 VK2020_DNK_Jutland_VA
0.02181843 VK2020_ISL_Hringsdalur_VA
0.02195519 VK2020_Scotland_Orkney_VA
0.02295445 VK2020_DNK_Funen_VA
0.02309374 VK2020_DNK_Sealand_EVA
0.02310829 SWE_IA
0.02447231 Scotland_LBA
0.02501492 VK2020_England_Dorset_VA
0.02592606 England_Saxon
0.02598773 SWE_Ollsjo_BA
0.02623343 VK2020_NOR_South_VA
0.02632934 VK2020_IRL_Dublin_VA
0.02644800 VK2020_SWE_Malmo_VA
0.02648289 VK2020_NOR_North_VA
0.02649967 England_MBA



Target: DEU_MA
Distance: 0.6786% / 0.00678620 | ADC: 0.25x

29.6 VK2020_DNK_Langeland_VA
28.8 VK2020_GreenlandE_VA
12.6 SWE_IA
12.0 ITA_Collegno_MA
7.4 POL_Unetice_EBA
4.6 England_EMBA
1.6 VK2020_NOR_Mid_MA
1.2 VK2020_POL_Sandomierz_VA
1.0 VK2020_NOR_North_IA
0.8 TUR_Kumtepe_N_low_res
0.4 ZAF_2100BP


Target: DEU_MA
Distance: 0.9351% / 0.00935089 | ADC: 0.5x

56.6 VK2020_DNK_Langeland_VA
17.8 VK2020_GreenlandE_VA
12.4 SWE_IA
6.4 England_EMBA
3.8 VK2020_NOR_Mid_MA
2.8 POL_Unetice_EBA
0.2 CMR_Shum_Laka_3000BP



Target: DEU_MA
Distance: 1.1706% / 0.01170557 | ADC: 1x

67.6 VK2020_DNK_Langeland_VA
27.4 VK2020_GreenlandE_VA
5.0 SWE_IA



Target: DEU_MA
Distance: 1.4281% / 0.01428098 | ADC: 2x

94.8 VK2020_DNK_Langeland_VA
5.2 VK2020_GreenlandE_VA

Kellebel
11-04-2020, 07:26 PM
Perhaps, I’m missing something but your DEU_MA sample doesn’t look 90% England_IA to me.


Distance to: DEU_MA
0.01492859 VK2020_DNK_Langeland_VA
0.01773391 VK2020_GreenlandE_VA
0.01800467 VK2020_SWE_Skara_VA
0.01854785 VK2020_NOR_Mid_MA
0.01880897 VK2020_ISL_Hofstadir_VA
0.01897655 VK2020_Faroes_EM
0.01942952 VK2020_DNK_Sealand_VA
0.01988935 VK2020_SWE_Oland_VA
0.02014687 VK2020_England_Oxford_VA
0.02038826 England_Roman
0.02056778 VK2020_DNK_Jutland_VA
0.02181843 VK2020_ISL_Hringsdalur_VA
0.02195519 VK2020_Scotland_Orkney_VA
0.02295445 VK2020_DNK_Funen_VA
0.02309374 VK2020_DNK_Sealand_EVA
0.02310829 SWE_IA
0.02447231 Scotland_LBA
0.02501492 VK2020_England_Dorset_VA
0.02592606 England_Saxon
0.02598773 SWE_Ollsjo_BA
0.02623343 VK2020_NOR_South_VA
0.02632934 VK2020_IRL_Dublin_VA
0.02644800 VK2020_SWE_Malmo_VA
0.02648289 VK2020_NOR_North_VA
0.02649967 England_MBA



Target: DEU_MA
Distance: 0.6786% / 0.00678620 | ADC: 0.25x

29.6 VK2020_DNK_Langeland_VA
28.8 VK2020_GreenlandE_VA
12.6 SWE_IA
12.0 ITA_Collegno_MA
7.4 POL_Unetice_EBA
4.6 England_EMBA
1.6 VK2020_NOR_Mid_MA
1.2 VK2020_POL_Sandomierz_VA
1.0 VK2020_NOR_North_IA
0.8 TUR_Kumtepe_N_low_res
0.4 ZAF_2100BP


Target: DEU_MA
Distance: 0.9351% / 0.00935089 | ADC: 0.5x

56.6 VK2020_DNK_Langeland_VA
17.8 VK2020_GreenlandE_VA
12.4 SWE_IA
6.4 England_EMBA
3.8 VK2020_NOR_Mid_MA
2.8 POL_Unetice_EBA
0.2 CMR_Shum_Laka_3000BP



Target: DEU_MA
Distance: 1.1706% / 0.01170557 | ADC: 1x

67.6 VK2020_DNK_Langeland_VA
27.4 VK2020_GreenlandE_VA
5.0 SWE_IA



Target: DEU_MA
Distance: 1.4281% / 0.01428098 | ADC: 2x

94.8 VK2020_DNK_Langeland_VA
5.2 VK2020_GreenlandE_VA

No, he took it out of my model and put it as a target:


Target: DEU_MA
Distance: 2.8101% / 0.02810138
96.0 England_IA
4.0 ITA_IA

But it's only logical, because these are the other components in the model (with DEU_MA removed, obviously):


England_IA,0.1317503,0.1307495,0.0601505,0.0480462 ,0.0350832,0.0201498,0.0048175,0.0036922,0.0042438 ,0.0041915,-0.0044248,0.0057322,-0.0105175,-0.018476,0.0180167,0.0100438,0.001206,-6.33e-05,0.0033312,0.003908,0.0038995,0.000247,-0.0012018,0.0114172,0.0004493
Levant_Ashkelon_IA2,0.0789173,0.1411587,-0.0600877,-0.1049757,-0.0165157,-0.0365343,-0.0036033,-0.017461,0.0156117,0.011906,0.0060623,-0.007094,0.0225967,-0.003991,-0.010541,0.0114467,0.00339,-0.005574,-0.005447,0.0036683,0.0041593,0.0037097,-0.0047657,-0.007471,0.0026343
Canary_Islands_Guanche,-0.0393828,0.1314096,-0.0023384,-0.0687344,0.0337292,-0.0363672,-0.0299874,0.008261,0.0708878,0.0305428,0.0075674,-0.0059948,0.0182554,-0.0176982,0.0232082,-0.0130468,0.0031814,-0.019206,-0.044321,0.010405,-0.0134762,-0.0377142,0.0232692,-0.0011806,0.0046224
GRC:_Minoan_Lassithi,0.1192866,0.170609,-0.0181772,-0.093993,0.0295438,-0.0398256,-0.001316,-0.0034614,0.0103488,0.0598102,0.0029878,0.0153164,-0.0251238,-5.48e-05,-0.0374586,-0.0109518,0.0173934,-0.0012414,0.0088742,-0.0136316,-0.0133764,0.0083836,-0.0050776,-0.0010604,-0.0024428
GRC:_Mycenaean,0.107847,0.1563915,-0.008108,-0.0646808,0.0216962,-0.0271222,-0.0005288,-0.0021345,0.00542,0.047336,0.005521,0.0169352,-0.012785,-0.0006195,-0.0163882,-0.0098118,0.0210245,0.0036108,0.0123188,-0.0039705,-0.0058648,0.0001858,-0.0065935,0.0011448,-0.0007185
GRC:Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2,0.118376,0.158423,-0.009051,-0.0670225,0.0252355,-0.027889,0.001645,-0.005077,0.0049085,0.042552,0.002842,0.01124,-0.016873,0.003578,-0.018526,-0.0157785,0.0035855,0.0003805,0.004588,-0.0126935,-0.008298,0.001546,0.001664,0.0071095,-0.008502
ITA_IA:_Boville_Ernica_IA,0.126344,0.152329,0.0343 18,-0.014535,0.054164,-0.01506,-0.001175,0.005307,0.019634,0.041914,0.005196,0.010 79,-0.011001,-0.005643,0.004479,-0.016441,-0.010822,-0.001394,0.006662,-0.01113,0.007736,0.007172,-0.007641,-0.00241,0.008981
ITA_IA:_Ardea_Latini_IA,0.133173,0.156392,0.0445,-0.00969,0.044008,-0.004462,0.00846,0.003,0.024543,0.044101,-0.002598,0.012289,-0.022448,-0.009634,-0.005429,-0.005834,0.00352,0.003167,0.006034,-0.007379,-0.008859,0.005317,-0.000863,-0.006989,-0.001796
ITA_IA:_Etruscan,0.126913,0.153853,0.034695,-0.014212,0.0417,-0.005299,0.0024675,-0.002769,0.019839,0.0343515,-0.0023545,0.014237,-0.014792,-0.004335,-0.00475,-0.007823,-0.0028035,0.0052575,0.011564,-0.001188,-0.002558,0.003771,-6.15e-05,-0.0004215,-0.002694
ITA_IA:_Prenestini_tribe_IA,0.12862,0.145221,0.047 14,0.005491,0.046162,0.00251,-0.00282,0.002769,0.021475,0.039727,-0.002923,0.012289,-0.021407,-0.016239,0.012622,0.000398,-0.003129,0.003421,0.00176,-0.001251,0.004492,0.003586,-0.00456,-0.003976,0.000239
ITA_IA:_Rome_Latini_IA,0.127482,0.147252,0.033187,-0.016796,0.044008,-0.008646,-0.00376,-0.004846,0.026588,0.052666,-0.002761,0.015137,-0.036719,-0.008533,-0.009093,0.013392,0.016037,-0.004687,0.003897,0.004127,0.00262,-0.00272,0.001972,-0.007712,-0.008742
ITA_IA:_Villanovan,0.12862,0.156392,0.042238,-0.024225,0.052933,-0.008367,-0.001645,-0.005307,0.023725,0.040274,0.006008,0.006894,-0.018285,-0.019405,-0.003529,0.008751,0.025686,0.002914,0.004651,0.004 252,0.00574,0.006059,-0.006286,-0.010604,-0.002515
Iberia_East_IA,0.1244941,0.1489018,0.0564739,0.002 1802,0.0598572,-0.0031725,-0.0036426,0.0044711,0.0299882,0.0468802,-0.0047092,0.0111088,-0.0233585,-0.0145191,0.0078549,0.0056351,0.0067799,0.0016153, 0.0038024,-0.0010318,0.0055682,-9.26e-05,-0.007364,-0.0123961,-0.0011226
ITA_Rome_Imperial,0.1039821,0.1495156,-0.0235307,-0.0574065,0.0045265,-0.0204055,-0.0011946,-0.0051488,0.0006604,0.0196549,0.0034575,0.0025539,-0.0040602,-0.0014737,-0.0081715,-0.0014474,0.0035992,0.000454,0.0012178,-0.0032854,-0.0025579,0.0020454,-0.0006985,-0.0004845,0.0004141

JMcB
11-04-2020, 07:32 PM
No, he took it out of my model and put it as a target:



But it's only logical, because these are the other components in the model (with DEU_MA removed, obviously):


England_IA,0.1317503,0.1307495,0.0601505,0.0480462 ,0.0350832,0.0201498,0.0048175,0.0036922,0.0042438 ,0.0041915,-0.0044248,0.0057322,-0.0105175,-0.018476,0.0180167,0.0100438,0.001206,-6.33e-05,0.0033312,0.003908,0.0038995,0.000247,-0.0012018,0.0114172,0.0004493
Levant_Ashkelon_IA2,0.0789173,0.1411587,-0.0600877,-0.1049757,-0.0165157,-0.0365343,-0.0036033,-0.017461,0.0156117,0.011906,0.0060623,-0.007094,0.0225967,-0.003991,-0.010541,0.0114467,0.00339,-0.005574,-0.005447,0.0036683,0.0041593,0.0037097,-0.0047657,-0.007471,0.0026343
Canary_Islands_Guanche,-0.0393828,0.1314096,-0.0023384,-0.0687344,0.0337292,-0.0363672,-0.0299874,0.008261,0.0708878,0.0305428,0.0075674,-0.0059948,0.0182554,-0.0176982,0.0232082,-0.0130468,0.0031814,-0.019206,-0.044321,0.010405,-0.0134762,-0.0377142,0.0232692,-0.0011806,0.0046224
GRC:_Minoan_Lassithi,0.1192866,0.170609,-0.0181772,-0.093993,0.0295438,-0.0398256,-0.001316,-0.0034614,0.0103488,0.0598102,0.0029878,0.0153164,-0.0251238,-5.48e-05,-0.0374586,-0.0109518,0.0173934,-0.0012414,0.0088742,-0.0136316,-0.0133764,0.0083836,-0.0050776,-0.0010604,-0.0024428
GRC:_Mycenaean,0.107847,0.1563915,-0.008108,-0.0646808,0.0216962,-0.0271222,-0.0005288,-0.0021345,0.00542,0.047336,0.005521,0.0169352,-0.012785,-0.0006195,-0.0163882,-0.0098118,0.0210245,0.0036108,0.0123188,-0.0039705,-0.0058648,0.0001858,-0.0065935,0.0011448,-0.0007185
GRC:Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2,0.118376,0.158423,-0.009051,-0.0670225,0.0252355,-0.027889,0.001645,-0.005077,0.0049085,0.042552,0.002842,0.01124,-0.016873,0.003578,-0.018526,-0.0157785,0.0035855,0.0003805,0.004588,-0.0126935,-0.008298,0.001546,0.001664,0.0071095,-0.008502
ITA_IA:_Boville_Ernica_IA,0.126344,0.152329,0.0343 18,-0.014535,0.054164,-0.01506,-0.001175,0.005307,0.019634,0.041914,0.005196,0.010 79,-0.011001,-0.005643,0.004479,-0.016441,-0.010822,-0.001394,0.006662,-0.01113,0.007736,0.007172,-0.007641,-0.00241,0.008981
ITA_IA:_Ardea_Latini_IA,0.133173,0.156392,0.0445,-0.00969,0.044008,-0.004462,0.00846,0.003,0.024543,0.044101,-0.002598,0.012289,-0.022448,-0.009634,-0.005429,-0.005834,0.00352,0.003167,0.006034,-0.007379,-0.008859,0.005317,-0.000863,-0.006989,-0.001796
ITA_IA:_Etruscan,0.126913,0.153853,0.034695,-0.014212,0.0417,-0.005299,0.0024675,-0.002769,0.019839,0.0343515,-0.0023545,0.014237,-0.014792,-0.004335,-0.00475,-0.007823,-0.0028035,0.0052575,0.011564,-0.001188,-0.002558,0.003771,-6.15e-05,-0.0004215,-0.002694
ITA_IA:_Prenestini_tribe_IA,0.12862,0.145221,0.047 14,0.005491,0.046162,0.00251,-0.00282,0.002769,0.021475,0.039727,-0.002923,0.012289,-0.021407,-0.016239,0.012622,0.000398,-0.003129,0.003421,0.00176,-0.001251,0.004492,0.003586,-0.00456,-0.003976,0.000239
ITA_IA:_Rome_Latini_IA,0.127482,0.147252,0.033187,-0.016796,0.044008,-0.008646,-0.00376,-0.004846,0.026588,0.052666,-0.002761,0.015137,-0.036719,-0.008533,-0.009093,0.013392,0.016037,-0.004687,0.003897,0.004127,0.00262,-0.00272,0.001972,-0.007712,-0.008742
ITA_IA:_Villanovan,0.12862,0.156392,0.042238,-0.024225,0.052933,-0.008367,-0.001645,-0.005307,0.023725,0.040274,0.006008,0.006894,-0.018285,-0.019405,-0.003529,0.008751,0.025686,0.002914,0.004651,0.004 252,0.00574,0.006059,-0.006286,-0.010604,-0.002515
Iberia_East_IA,0.1244941,0.1489018,0.0564739,0.002 1802,0.0598572,-0.0031725,-0.0036426,0.0044711,0.0299882,0.0468802,-0.0047092,0.0111088,-0.0233585,-0.0145191,0.0078549,0.0056351,0.0067799,0.0016153, 0.0038024,-0.0010318,0.0055682,-9.26e-05,-0.007364,-0.0123961,-0.0011226
ITA_Rome_Imperial,0.1039821,0.1495156,-0.0235307,-0.0574065,0.0045265,-0.0204055,-0.0011946,-0.0051488,0.0006604,0.0196549,0.0034575,0.0025539,-0.0040602,-0.0014737,-0.0081715,-0.0014474,0.0035992,0.000454,0.0012178,-0.0032854,-0.0025579,0.0020454,-0.0006985,-0.0004845,0.0004141



Of course, the question is, where else is it going to go in a model like that?

Finn
11-04-2020, 08:22 PM
Do you speak any northsea Germanic dialect?Or the typical Dutch only?

Frisian for example?

I speak Friso-Saxon, a lower Saxon dialect (= Grunnegs).

Sounds like this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KbfmH9zNTQY

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Friso-Saxon_languages

Johnny ola
11-04-2020, 08:30 PM
I speak Friso-Saxon, a lower Saxon dialect (= Grunnegs).

Sounds like this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KbfmH9zNTQY

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Friso-Saxon_languages


Nice,i guess the English language sounds also familiar to you,or you think the modern English is very influenced from the French(via the Normans)?

Finn
11-04-2020, 08:33 PM
Nice,i guess the English language sounds also familiar to you,or you think the modern English is very influenced from the French(via the Normans)?

Basically there are similarities indeed but you got it right English got a somewhat other shift.....

Kellebel
11-05-2020, 03:39 PM
Sooo, yesterday, I made a ghost for my grandfather by subtracting my grandmother's coordinates from those of my mother's. So before I post any results of him here, I wanted to put out a little disclaimer that since this consists of only roughly 50% of his DNA and is all speculative, his actual results would be a little different. But I think it can give somewhat of an indicative image anyway.

To give you a little background, he comes from the same region as my grandmother (Pao), which is Dutch Southern Limburg. But whereas my grandmother has some additional Rhineland ancestry, my grandfather has some additional Walloon ancestry (with some minor (probably northern) French mixed in). Part of his ancestry is still a little bit of a mystery. His distance to modern pops:


Distance to: Jean_scaled
0.02896516 Belgian
0.02910906 French_Nord
0.02939171 French_Alsace
0.02984742 Swiss_German
0.03084229 French_Paris
0.03512357 French_Occitanie
0.03527537 French_Provence
0.03547015 French_Auvergne
0.03594365 Swiss_French
0.03734586 French_Seine-Maritime
0.03788309 French_Brittany
0.03850732 French_Pas-de-Calais
0.03895638 Afrikaner
0.03943281 Italian_Aosta_Valley
0.04138920 German
0.04231167 Welsh
0.04244768 Spanish_Penedes
0.04246437 English_Cornwall
0.04266229 Italian_Northeast
0.04316772 Spanish_Barcelones
0.04321874 Spanish_Girona
0.04345985 Austrian
0.04400529 English
0.04500926 Spanish_Mallorca
0.04550953 Spanish_Peri-Barcelona
0.04584086 Spanish_Camp_de_Tarragona
0.04602029 Dutch

When using my basic model without the Jewish samples, he gets:


Target: Jean_scaled
Distance: 2.6521% / 0.02652083
47.6 England_IA
22.8 ITA_IA
17.6 DEU_MA
5.6 GRC
4.8 ITA_Rome_Imperial
1.6 Canary_Islands_Guanche

And with:


Target: Jean_scaled
Distance: 2.5472% / 0.02547161
54.2 England_IA
24.0 ITA_IA
11.6 Italo-Romaniote_OG_4.0
10.2 DEU_MA

My mom seems to have inherited the East Med signal from her dad, as this technically is the 50% she inherited from him.

For comparison reasons, I repost my mother's and grandmother's results:


My mom without the Jewish samples:

Target: Ella_scaled
Distance: 1.6003% / 0.01600275
51.6 England_IA
22.2 DEU_MA
18.8 ITA_IA
4.4 GRC
2.4 ITA_Rome_Imperial
0.6 Canary_Islands_Guanche

My mom with the Jewish samples:

Target: Ella_scaled
Distance: 1.5759% / 0.01575914
53.8 England_IA
22.2 ITA_IA
17.4 DEU_MA
6.0 Italo-Romaniote_OG_4.0
0.6 GRC

My grandmother either way:

Target: Pao_scaled
Distance: 1.5109% / 0.01510869
45.0 DEU_MA
31.2 England_IA
23.8 ITA_IA

MitchellSince1893
11-05-2020, 05:15 PM
Sooo, yesterday, I made a ghost for my grandfather by subtracting my grandmother's coordinates from those of my mother's. So before I post any results of him here, I wanted to put out a little disclaimer that since this consists of only roughly 50% of his DNA and is all speculative, his actual results would be a little different. But I think it can give somewhat of an indicative image anyway.

To give you a little background, he comes from the same region as my grandmother (Pao), which is Dutch Southern Limburg. But whereas my grandmother has some additional Rhineland ancestry, my grandfather has some additional Walloon ancestry (with some minor (probably northern) French mixed in). Part of his ancestry is still a little bit of a mystery. His distance to modern pops:



When using my basic model without the Jewish samples, he gets:



And with:



My mom seems to have inherited the East Med signal from her dad, as this technically is the 50% she inherited from him.

For comparison reasons, I repost my mother's and grandmother's results:


My mom without the Jewish samples:


My mom with the Jewish samples:


My grandmother either way:



Do you see a way for me to recreate my father's father's dna based on having my father, his paternal half-sister, and a paternal half niece? Theoretically, these 3 individuals would have 81.25% of my paternal grandfather's ancestry. This may be a bridge too far.

Kellebel
11-05-2020, 05:45 PM
Do you see a way for me to recreate my father's father's dna based on having my father, his paternal half-sister, and a paternal half niece? Theoretically, these 3 individuals would have 81.25% of my paternal grandfather's ancestry. This may be a bridge too far.

Oh dear Lord, that's a tough one. I have no idea how to do that in all honesty, I'm really very sorry.. I opened a thread on how to create averages and ghosts. Perhaps someone there could help you along: https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?22162-G25-How-to-create-averages-and-ghosts :noidea: