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Alanson
01-10-2014, 08:23 PM
The Shimar sample carried two main haplogroups—J1 (at 52.3%) and R1a1 (at 42.8%)—with a small percentage of G2 (4.76%). A historical explanation could be that the Shimar trace their origins to two regions: Iraq (Philby, 1923) and Saudi Arabia. The Shimar resided in northern Najd—currently in Saudi Arabia—after their migration during pre-Islamic times from Taye in Yemen. Their migration to the North into Iraq ended during the 17th century CE (Subahai, 1996; Khuraysi, 1998; Williamson and Basri, 1999). As they settled in Iraq, the Shimar gave up nomadism and became urbanized in towns and cities—most notably in Mosul (Khuraysi, 1998). It is said that the Shimar are now of two main antecedents—Iraqi Shimar and Saudi Shimar—and each refers to itself as ‘the Noble Tribe’ (personal communication, Shimar of Kuwait). The haplogroup R1a1-M17 is found at substantial frequency in Iraq, so limited gene flow or subsequent drift (or both) could account for its presence in the Shimar—although later migrations, slavery and trade provide alternative explanation


It seems that the Shammar R1a1 matches with that of the Ashkenazi Jews rather than with Iranic speakers. However J1 being dominant shows the tribes origins in Arabia and where it claims it descent from Yemen. Interestingly that Shammaris are autosomally the same as Yemenite Jews despite the high levels of so called Indo-European DNA.

parasar
01-10-2014, 08:55 PM
The Shimar sample carried two main haplogroups—J1 (at 52.3%) and R1a1 (at 42.8%)—with a small percentage of G2 (4.76%). A historical explanation could be that the Shimar trace their origins to two regions: Iraq (Philby, 1923) and Saudi Arabia. The Shimar resided in northern Najd—currently in Saudi Arabia—after their migration during pre-Islamic times from Taye in Yemen. Their migration to the North into Iraq ended during the 17th century CE (Subahai, 1996; Khuraysi, 1998; Williamson and Basri, 1999). As they settled in Iraq, the Shimar gave up nomadism and became urbanized in towns and cities—most notably in Mosul (Khuraysi, 1998). It is said that the Shimar are now of two main antecedents—Iraqi Shimar and Saudi Shimar—and each refers to itself as ‘the Noble Tribe’ (personal communication, Shimar of Kuwait). The haplogroup R1a1-M17 is found at substantial frequency in Iraq, so limited gene flow or subsequent drift (or both) could account for its presence in the Shimar—although later migrations, slavery and trade provide alternative explanation


It seems that the Shammar R1a1 matches with that of the Ashkenazi Jews rather than with Iranic speakers. However J1 being dominant shows the tribes origins in Arabia and where it claims it descent from Yemen. Interestingly that Shammaris are autosomally the same as Yemenite Jews despite the high levels of so called Indo-European DNA.

If you are using Iranic in ancient Iran sense (ie now mostly modern Afghanistan), then you may be correct.

But as far as current Iran - Persia is concerned, it has been shown by a recent paper that the Ashkenazi R1a1 derives from a type Z2122 found in and around Persia. I also recall some Z282 Shammar (this is found more in Europe).

There is good amount of R1a1 in Arabia (as high as 17% has been reported, perhaps about 10%) , but not much in Yemen.
You may already know this - that many (esp. Tamim, Quraish, Wahab/Rass among others) from Najd, Mecca, Medina are R1a1-L657 (both Y7 and Y6) including the family that is the hereditary holder of the Kaaba key (al Shibi of Banu Shaiba).

Alanson
01-16-2014, 11:13 PM
If you are using Iranic in ancient Iran sense (ie now mostly modern Afghanistan), then you may be correct.

But as far as current Iran - Persia is concerned, it has been shown by a recent paper that the Ashkenazi R1a1 derives from a type Z2122 found in and around Persia. I also recall some Z282 Shammar (this is found more in Europe).

There is good amount of R1a1 in Arabia (as high as 17% has been reported, perhaps about 10%) , but not much in Yemen.
You may already know this - that many (esp. Tamim, Quraish, Wahab/Rass among others) from Najd, Mecca, Medina are R1a1-L657 (both Y7 and Y6) including the family that is the hereditary holder of the Kaaba key (al Shibi of Banu Shaiba).

Hmm I never knew that R1a is quite found a lot in Arabia. How did it get there is quite interesting. The funny thing it's true that Yemen has barely any R, and that the Shammar claim to be a Yemenite Qahtani tribe. It's sister tribe the majority Shia Bani Lam which claims descent from the Tayy parent group, don't show much R1a1 like that of the Shammar, but high levels of the typical Arabian subclade of the Y-DNA J1. One has to wonder how did R1a1 enter Arabia and it's Bedouin populations none the less.

newtoboard
01-17-2014, 01:11 AM
Well the source is most likely coastal Iran and South Asia IMO. Just need to figure out what time period.

Alanson
01-21-2014, 02:20 AM
Well the source is most likely coastal Iran and South Asia IMO. Just need to figure out what time period.

That's a possibility, but highly unlikely given to the fact that Arabian Bedouin tribes are often protective of their paternal lineages. If it's from Southern Persians/North Indians this probably would have taken place in pre-Islamic times.

parasar
01-21-2014, 03:20 AM
That's a possibility, but highly unlikely given to the fact that Arabian Bedouin tribes are often protective of their paternal lineages. If it's from Southern Persians/North Indians this probably would have taken place in pre-Islamic times.

For R-L657 lines, that is close - about 2000 years separation.

Alanson
01-21-2014, 04:27 AM
For R-L657 lines, that is close - about 2000 years separation.

Interesting. There has been some contact between Persians and Bedouins for nearly most of the time these people began to neighbour each other. It's said that the Shammar had contact with Persians and Persian culture during pre-Islamic period, where Persian culture was adopted and somewhat modified to fit the Bedouin lifestyle, how accurate this is, we don't know but it certainly can explain the Y-lineages.

the SUN child
01-21-2014, 01:11 PM
This is how the Middle East looked like before the flood that cause the Persian Gulf. Btw, there was also no Caspian Sea.

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_eyUztc60Jsc/TEPMHAPjH5I/AAAAAAAAAEI/gc5uuS9swcw/s1600/Middle+East+at+Peak+Glaciation.jpg

http://davidscottlevi.blogspot.nl/2010/07/why-civilization-agriculture-and.html


http://www.cais-soas.com/CAIS/Images2/persian_gulf/Ancient_Persian_Gulf.jpg

http://www.cais-soas.com/News/2011/february2001/16-02.htm

newtoboard
01-21-2014, 02:10 PM
That's a possibility, but highly unlikely given to the fact that Arabian Bedouin tribes are often protective of their paternal lineages. If it's from Southern Persians/North Indians this probably would have taken place in pre-Islamic times.

Well R1a of any type is not native to Arabs. Especially not L657+. I don't really care if they think they pure on their paternal side. There are plenty of non Islamic South Asian populations who think the same thing but are carrying Semitic types of J1 and E from West Asia.

Silesian
01-21-2014, 04:16 PM
Well R1a of any type is not native to Arabs. Especially not L657+. I don't really care if they think they pure on their paternal side. There are plenty of non Islamic South Asian populations who think the same thing but are carrying Semitic types of J1 and E from West Asia.
How do you know this without any ancient Arab R1a dated samples [like Eulau Germany]from the region? Perhaps they also practiced endogamy and have oral/written traditions in their culture, after all we now know that there are R1a Jewish Levites and they practiced endogamy and have traditons of their origins from the Middle East.

newtoboard
01-21-2014, 04:30 PM
How do you know this without any ancient Arab R1a dated samples [like Eulau Germany]from the region? Perhaps they also practiced endogamy and have oral/written traditions in their culture, after all we now know that there are R1a Jewish Levites and they practiced endogamy and have traditons.

We have this argument every two weeks. I'm getting tired of it. Z93+ is not Arabian and neither of are any of its major subclades. Never have been and never will be. People need to get over it. If anything the paper on Levite R1a showed that even groups who claim to have been endogamous have lineages not originally amongst them. Z2122+ is one such group as is L657+. If Z2122+ can have a West Asian Iranian source among Levites then why can't we infer L657+ has the same source among Arabs when everything supports that? You tell me which is more likely: Some L657+ jumping the Persian Gulf from various Persian empires that stretched or had contact with the Southern Persian Gulf into areas that are not very densely populated and in a region where links with Iran are noted in both autosomal and mtDNA or L657+ somehow , without any evidence of any migration, coming from Arabia and making a dent in the densely populated regions of South Asia (including regions where Islam and Arabs were never found) as well as Iran and Central Asia despite no other links with the Arabian Peninsula?

Silesian
01-21-2014, 05:13 PM
We have this argument every two weeks. I'm getting tired of it. Z93+ is not Arabian and neither of are any of its major subclades. Never have been and never will be. People need to get over it. If anything the paper on Levite R1a showed that even groups who claim to have been endogamous have lineages not originally amongst them. Z2122+ is one such group as is L657+. If Z2122+ can have a West Asian Iranian source among Levites then why can't we infer L657+ has the same source among Arabs when everything supports that? You tell me which is more likely: Some L657+ jumping the Persian Gulf from various Persian empires that stretched or had contact with the Southern Persian Gulf into areas that are not very densely populated and in a region where links with Iran are noted in both autosomal and mtDNA or L657+ somehow , without any evidence of any migration, coming from Arabia and making a dent in the densely populated regions of South Asia (including regions where Islam and Arabs were never found) as well as Iran and Central Asia despite no other links with the Arabian Peninsula?

Who said anything about an argument; you simply don't have any proof. These people have oral and written tradition. We now also have a current poster R1a Haddad, and he is also most likely of ancient R1a, as is his posted Arab/Jewish/Assyrian autosomal results, this jibes[harmony] with the R1a projects.
R1a Arabia http://www.familytreedna.com/public/R-Arabia
I can't help that there is more R1a in the Arab project than Ossetian and Hungarian Jászság DNA Project - combined, that is just the way it is.
http://www.familytreedna.com/public/Ossetian/default.aspx?section=yresults

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/Jaszsag/default.aspx?section=ysnp

newtoboard
01-21-2014, 05:29 PM
Who said anything about an argument; you simply don't have any proof. These people have oral and written tradition. We now also have a current poster R1a Haddad, and he is also most likely of ancient R1a, as is his posted Arab/Jewish/Assyrian autosomal results, this jibes[harmony] with the R1a projects.
R1a Arabia http://www.familytreedna.com/public/R-Arabia
I can't help that there is more R1a in the Arab project than Ossetian and Hungarian Jászság DNA Project - combined, that is just the way it is.
http://www.familytreedna.com/public/Ossetian/default.aspx?section=yresults

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/Jaszsag/default.aspx?section=ysnp

Oral and written tradition is not proof. Someone writing down they are endogamous doesn't mean no foreign lines entered their ethnic group. That is laughable.

Ossetians number less than a million. There are close to a BILLION Indo-Iranian speakers , most of whom have high frequencies of R1a. There are in all likelihood more R1a Indo-Iranian speakers than there are Western Europeans. So I don't really care about Ossetians. Keep the strawmans coming.

newtoboard
01-21-2014, 05:31 PM
And I would love to see your proof. Please post evidence of a migration of R1a from Semitic speakers to Indo-Iranian speakers. Until then your arguments make no sense and have zero basis in reality. Just you seeing what you want to see and somehow using Ossetians to represent Proto Indo-Iranians and Gulf Arabs as Proto Semitic speakers. Both of which make no sense.

the SUN child
01-21-2014, 05:41 PM
The oldest paternal R1a* clades could migrate into the Arabian Peninsula thousands years ago, before proto-Afro-Asiatics and proto-Indo-Europeans ever existed. R1a* is much older than the proto-Indo-European language.

But, of course it's not possible that the Iranian R1a is from the Arabian peninsula, while there's a lot West Iranian DNA (Caucaso-Gedrosian component) in Arabia.


In Iraq there're millions of Arabized Persians, Parthians, Kurds (Medes) etc.

parasar
01-21-2014, 05:43 PM
How do you know this without any ancient Arab R1a dated samples [like Eulau Germany]from the region? Perhaps they also practiced endogamy and have oral/written traditions in their culture, after all we now know that there are R1a Jewish Levites and they practiced endogamy and have traditons of their origins from the Middle East.

L657 is not present in the northern areas of the middle-east. It presence is limited to the Arabian peninsula, gulf, eastern Iran, and the Indian subcontinent. There are isolated instances in Algeria and Kazakhstan, but these can be attributed to the Arab empire and missionary activity.

We know that there were ancient contacts between India and Arabia, and the reason it looks like that R-L657 did not come from Arabia to India is the complete lack of J1 in Hindu populations that have high levels of R-L657+ (Muslim populations do show some J1 along with R-L657).

newtoboard
01-21-2014, 05:51 PM
The oldest paternal R1a* clades could migrate into the Arabian Peninsula thousands years ago, before proto-Afro-Asiatics and proto-Indo-Europeans ever existed. R1a* is much older than the proto-Indo-European language.

But, of course it's not possible that the Iranian R1a is from the Arabian peninsula, while there's a lot West Iranian DNA (Caucaso-Gedrosian component) in Arabia.


In Iraq there're millions of Arabized Persians, Parthians, Kurds (Medes) etc.

Yea that is likely. R1a* is older than IE speakers. Some of it could have migrated into the Arabian peninsula very early. Although parsar thinks R1a* in West Asia is not very old. But it is equally likely R1a* entered the Arabian peninsula from Iran alongside other R1a clades.

But yes you are correct on your second point. There is no migration or any genetic support to derive Iranian , Central Asian , or South Asian R1a out of Arabia. It is the other way around. There are millions of people in those countries with Iranian and Balochi ancestry. There is nothing to suggest significant Arab ancestry in South and West Asia. Certainly not in places like Eastern Anatolia or the Ganges Valley where Arabs almost never set foot in.

newtoboard
01-21-2014, 05:53 PM
L657 is not present in the northern areas of the middle-east. It presence is limited to the Arabian peninsula, gulf, eastern Iran, and the Indian subcontinent. There are isolated instances in Algeria and Kazakhstan, but these can be attributed to the Arab empire and missionary activity.

We know that there were ancient contacts between India and Arabia, and the reason it looks like that R-L657 did not come from Arabia to India is the complete lack of J1 in Hindu populations that have high levels of R-L657+ (Muslim populations do show some J1 along with R-L657).

There are more reasons than that. L657+ exists in regions where Arabs never set foot. Its brother clades like Z2124+, Z2122+, and Z2123+ being too widely distributed. On the Z93+ level its brother clade is exclusively European so no way Z93+ is Arab and on the Z645+ level its brother clade is exclusively NW European.

Silesian
01-21-2014, 06:30 PM
Oral and written tradition is not proof. Someone writing down they are endogamous doesn't mean no foreign lines entered their ethnic group. That is laughable.

Okay thanks.


Ossetians number less than a million. There are close to a BILLION Indo-Iranian speakers , most of whom have high frequencies of R1a.

Yes but what is the breakdown in the most ancient R1a clades. For example how many Indo-Iranians R1a- Z283? 0% how many have ancient R1a when compared to ancient Arab R1a.




There are in all likelihood more R1a Indo-Iranian speakers than there are Western Europeans. So I don't really care about Ossetians.

Are you sure you are just saying that because the project does not have the R1a types or numbers that you expect to fit your theories about P.I.E?




Keep the strawmans coming. Since when is finding the amount and type of R1a among Arab,Shammar Bedouins and comparing it to Eastern Iranian speaking Ossetiansis questioning your theories of P.I.E at the same time considered strawman.

parasar
01-21-2014, 06:51 PM
There are more reasons than that. L657+ exists in regions where Arabs never set foot. Its brother clades like Z2124+, Z2122+, and Z2123+ being too widely distributed. On the Z93+ level its brother clade is exclusively European so no way Z93+ is Arab and on the Z645+ level its brother clade is exclusively NW European.

I would add R-M434, though trace, clearly went from the subcontinent to south eastern Arabia as - "the Omani R1a1a6 samples, all three of which share the same STR, indicate recent gene flow across the Persian Gulf." http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2987245/

newtoboard
01-21-2014, 07:24 PM
-Who cares? The frequency of R1a* probably doesn't reach even .5% everywhere. As far as I know it is more common in Iran than Arabians. The bulk of Arab R1a is Z93 not R1a* or anything. Plus none of the brother clades of Z93+ originate in Arabia. Not to mention none of the intermediate clades between R1a* and Z93 are common in Arabia.

-Yea I guess I should have said there are likely more R1a Indo-Iranian males than Western European males of any haplogroup. There are about likely 350-450 times as many R1a Indo-Iranian males than Ossetians as a whole. R1a among Semitic speakers as whole is miniscule. But the lack of R1a in Ossetians clearly means Indo-Iranians were connected with R1b right? Not like there is a problem with using Ossetians as a proxy for Indo-Iranians and Gulf Arabs as a proxy for Semitic speakers is a problem.

-My theories about PIE? Don't make me laugh. You are presenting fringe views regarding the origin of R1a without a shred of proof. You want to throw ridiculous theories out there then be prepared to defend them. I haven't said anything that the majority of people on this board, the R1a projects and genetic community wouldn't support. But you constantly try to make people who believe in the mainstream theories go on the defensive as if your theories are rooted in anything other than the fantasy of R1a spreading from Semitic to Indo-Iranian speakers.

-I have no idea what you are saying. Can you please be a bit more coherent? I don't care about Arabs and Ossetians. Once you stop representing these populations as Proto Indo-Iranians and Proto-Semitic speakers your arguments crumble. This is your strawman. You argument is formulated with the idea that these populations best represent their parent linguistic group and have no genetic admixture when that is far from the case. The majority of Indo-Iranian speakers are from Iran, Turkey, Afghanistan, Tajikistan , Pakistan, India and Bangladesh. The majority of Semitic/Afro-Asiatic speakers live in the Levant, Mesopotamia and North+ East Africa. But somehow your posts are centered around Ossetians and Arabians.

newtoboard
01-21-2014, 07:26 PM
Who said anything about an argument; you simply don't have any proof. These people have oral and written tradition. We now also have a current poster R1a Haddad, and he is also most likely of ancient R1a, as is his posted Arab/Jewish/Assyrian autosomal results, this jibes[harmony] with the R1a projects.
R1a Arabia http://www.familytreedna.com/public/R-Arabia
I can't help that there is more R1a in the Arab project than Ossetian and Hungarian Jászság DNA Project - combined, that is just the way it is.
http://www.familytreedna.com/public/Ossetian/default.aspx?section=yresults

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/Jaszsag/default.aspx?section=ysnp

Maybe you should compare the Arab population with the Ossetian population and see the sillyness of that statment. Jassics don't even speak an Iranian language anymore. For all intensive purposes they are just Hungarians.

Mehrdad
01-21-2014, 08:16 PM
So this would mean that there were constant male migrations out of South Asia into Arabia?

Alanson
01-21-2014, 10:05 PM
So this would mean that there were constant male migrations out of South Asia into Arabia?

Probably that seems to be the case at least in this tribe.

newtoboard
01-21-2014, 10:31 PM
So this would mean that there were constant male migrations out of South Asia into Arabia?

I sincerely doubt there were major migrations. It might make more sense to view Arab R1a as the result of a few South Asian and Iranian R1a males whose clade just become successful for whatever reason rather than a major migration which would be consistent with autosomal ancestry and the general endogamy of Arabia. I do think they are endogamus ( but no endogamus group is completely free of foreign influence) and in general they lack other South Asian and Iranian ydna . R1a was just sucessful in multiplying. This is not surprising. R groups in General have this trend. This is also consistent with the low STR diversity of some R1a clades.

newtoboard
01-22-2014, 01:50 AM
This is how the Middle East looked like before the flood that cause the Persian Gulf. Btw, there was also no Caspian Sea.

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_eyUztc60Jsc/TEPMHAPjH5I/AAAAAAAAAEI/gc5uuS9swcw/s1600/Middle+East+at+Peak+Glaciation.jpg

http://davidscottlevi.blogspot.nl/2010/07/why-civilization-agriculture-and.html


http://www.cais-soas.com/CAIS/Images2/persian_gulf/Ancient_Persian_Gulf.jpg

http://www.cais-soas.com/News/2011/february2001/16-02.htm
This isn't really related to the thread but I wonder what that part of the world would be like if there was no Caspian Sea and NW India, Arabia, Central Asia remained so green? Which ethnic groups and languages would exist there? Which countries? What would the genetic landscape be Like? Economy? Relation with Europe? Interesting to think about.

toast
01-22-2014, 02:41 AM
I would add R-M434, though trace, clearly went from the subcontinent to south eastern Arabia as - "the Omani R1a1a6 samples, all three of which share the same STR, indicate recent gene flow across the Persian Gulf." http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2987245/

Thanks parasar. Do you have any idea if that r1a in omanis came from trade or maybe islamic missionaries?from which indid ethnicity? I remember once reading oman had an ancient settlement of indians, who became dear to the sultans! I think the omani sultans encouraged them to settle down there.

toast
01-22-2014, 03:00 AM
Probably that seems to be the case at least in this tribe.

Theres a bunch of H and L in arabs on the ftdna project. I think its to do with trade. Sea traders always went on long distance voyages, be they indian, arab, european, or other nationals, taking few if any women with them. This was because the journeys were rife with dangers of bandits, pirates and rough storms.
They would take women from the countries where they migrated into. Their own women would stay at home rearing children, and attending to livestock, not to forget seaborne trade was regarded impure for vedic hindus, so keeping their womenfolk at home was a way of redeeming themselves.

parasar
01-22-2014, 03:11 AM
Thanks parasar. Do you have any idea if that r1a in omanis came from trade or maybe islamic missionaries?from which indid ethnicity? I remember once reading oman had an ancient settlement of indians, who became dear to the sultans! I think the omani sultans encouraged them to settle down there.

I can only speculate here, but as all the Omanis share the same haplotype, this has to quite recent - few hundred years (see Gwadar). As Alanson had mentioned on another other thread - http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?1257-Middle-East-Troubles&p=26512&viewfull=1#post26512 - Oman is known for its welcoming nature and diversity. On my post following Alanson's post, I had reflected on the Oman House in my high school (where two of the Omani sultans went to school).

toast
01-22-2014, 03:16 AM
BTW there are indians still living in oman now for several generations and they wear the omani dress and speak arabic!

Silesian
01-22-2014, 06:48 AM
You argument is formulated with the idea that these populations best represent their parent linguistic group and have no genetic admixture when that is far from the case.
You keep emphasizing argument. Perhaps one day you will be fortunate to get a genetic test done to see who you are related with. In my case even though im not directly R1a it still makes up a 20%+ of my ydna , I consider R1a part of my heritage even though my direct paternal line is eastern branch of R1b. I have debated Tomatoes about R1a actually not originating from Arabic peninsula.

Alanson
01-22-2014, 07:44 AM
In Iraq there're millions of Arabized Persians, Parthians, Kurds (Medes) etc.

That's actually quite correct. You will find Arabized Persians especially in Baghdad, but Karbala is where they are located mostly at one time 70% of this city population was of Persian origins, and also some in Najaf. You will find Arabized Kurds in the North. I believe Iraqis are basically Bedouin with some Iranic lineages based on geography and history this would be correct statement.

newtoboard
01-22-2014, 11:14 AM
You keep emphasizing argument. Perhaps one day you will be fortunate to get a genetic test done to see who you are related with. In my case even though im not directly R1a it still makes up a 20%+ of my ydna , I consider R1a part of my heritage even though my direct paternal line is eastern branch of R1b. I have debated Tomatoes about R1a actually not originating from Arabic peninsula.
You really have no idea what you are talking about. You are just obsessed with making the same statements over and over about Arabs and Ossetians. You are wrong in every possible way and it is clear for everybody to see. But keep on telling us how R1a spread from Arabs to South and West Asia and how native R1a is to Arabs. I'm not really concerned about your arguments given your general lack of knowledge of R1a and this part of the world.

newtoboard
01-22-2014, 11:26 AM
You really have no idea what you are talking about. You are just obsessed with making the same statements over and over about Arabs and Ossetians. You are wrong in every possible way and it is clear for everybody to see. But keep on telling us how R1a spread from Arabs to South and West Asia and how native R1a is to Arabs. I'm not really concerned about your arguments given your general lack of knowledge of R1a and this part of the world.

I apologize if this post sounded mean Silesian. I am just annoyed at you arguing for R1a being native to Arabs when most people and articles disagree with that and nothing new has come out disagreeing with that. It is also a bit offensive when you constantly use Ossetians as some sort of pure population who best represents the Proto Indo-Iranian gene pool and draw conclusions on the origins of a billion people on a small ethnic group who only became Indo-Iranian speaking later than Eastern Europe and the rest of Asia. Given the Mongols destroyed the Kingdom of Alania we don't even know what Ancient Ossetians were like. Their territory encompassed most of the North Caucasus and I think part of Ossetia was Georgian just a few hundred years ago. Which is why it doesn't make sense to draw conclusions based on them.

toast
01-22-2014, 11:54 AM
That's actually quite correct. You will find Arabized Persians especially in Baghdad, but Karbala is where they are located mostly at one time 70% of this city population was of Persian origins, and also some in Najaf. You will find Arabized Kurds in the North. I believe Iraqis are basically Bedouin with some Iranic lineages based on geography and history this would be correct statement.

majority of persians love islam and arabs cultures within inside iran. Its a lie to say they dont just because they dont get on with the regime. if youve ever been there you'd know persians who are willing to die for lslam. American iranians who represent the priviledged elite class arent the real face of iranian muslim people.

Silesian
01-22-2014, 02:52 PM
I apologize if this post sounded mean Silesian. I am just annoyed at you arguing for R1a being native to Arabs when most people and articles disagree with that and nothing new has come out disagreeing with that.

I actually dont think R1a originated in Arabia. I was just wondering how the mutation from Banuu region is connected with some people in Arabic tribes and the region around Ossets. I thought Ossests were the closest to Yagnobi last link in the trail of Eastern Iranian languages. R1b 343 is found in Azeri and Georgia,Ossest and Kurds from Khazahk I thought perhaps R1a 420 should also be found in this region because r1a 93 and eastern r1b z2105 m73 track together in some regions Caucasus and Balkans, Anatolian plateau, Iranian Plateau.

newtoboard
01-22-2014, 03:50 PM
There are Alan kurgans in the Caucasus I think. I think the debate about Ossetians can be cleared up if somebody tested those.

Humanist
01-22-2014, 05:10 PM
We now also have a current poster R1a Haddad, and he is also most likely of ancient R1a, as is his posted Arab/Jewish/Assyrian autosomal results...

What is "Arab/Jewish/Assyrian autosomal results?"

He is not Jewish. His father is a Chaldean Catholic from Iraq. And his mother is from Lebanon as far as I recall, with Lebanese Christian and North Italian ancestry.

Silesian
01-22-2014, 05:32 PM
What is "Arab/Jewish/Assyrian autosomal results?"

He is not Jewish. His father is a Chaldean Catholic from Iraq. And his mother is from Lebanon as far as I recall, with Lebanese Christian and North Italian ancestry.

Depending on the gedmatch calculator ie Eurogenes, Dodecad and reference populations used within different runs those results are used for calculating Oracle 1 to 4 populations so different results; and frequencies of different compnents.

Alanson
02-03-2014, 07:09 AM
majority of persians love islam and arabs cultures within inside iran. Its a lie to say they dont just because they dont get on with the regime. if youve ever been there you'd know persians who are willing to die for lslam. American iranians who represent the priviledged elite class arent the real face of iranian muslim people.

I would say that the relationship between Arabs and Iranians, I know this not relating to the topic but I would like to comment is more like of rivalry rather than hate. First it's shaped by love-hate relationship and cultural exchanges on both sides. In the nationalistic discourse there is anti-Arab feelings especially among Iranian nationalists, as much as their is anti-Iranian feeling among Arab nationalists. That said the average person usually has nothing against the people of different cultures, but might have prejudices due to historical and recent political developments. I do believe that people should put aside their petty rivalries come and join in the development of their region. Yes we are different in many ways and we are also similar, speaking from Iraq we share quite a lot of with Iran, and so they do with us.

parasar
06-04-2014, 04:01 AM
Yea that is likely. R1a* is older than IE speakers. Some of it could have migrated into the Arabian peninsula very early. Although parsar thinks R1a* in West Asia is not very old. But it is equally likely R1a* entered the Arabian peninsula from Iran alongside other R1a clades.

But yes you are correct on your second point. There is no migration or any genetic support to derive Iranian , Central Asian , or South Asian R1a out of Arabia. It is the other way around. There are millions of people in those countries with Iranian and Balochi ancestry. There is nothing to suggest significant Arab ancestry in South and West Asia. Certainly not in places like Eastern Anatolia or the Ganges Valley where Arabs almost never set foot in.

While R1a* by virtue of M420's position may be about 20000 years old, the downstream unifying SNP is relatively recent in West Asia (though older that Z93 in Siberia, as seen below)
My thinking is confirmed in the recent Underhill paper that clearly shows that based on STR analysis the M420 group is one of the youngest. http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/vaop/ncurrent/extref/ejhg201450x5.xls

Td (mut. rate 2.5×10-3) [the recent confirmation of Z93 in Inner Asia that is twice the age of Siberian Z93 age below indicates that the mutation rate should be halved to 1.25×10-3]
M420 Near/Middle East region total 7 2571
L657 South Asia region total 82 4268
Z2125 South Asia region total 27 3296
Z93 Siberia region total 41 1400


While the type found in Siberia is classified Z93* (due to the absence of known downstream markers), the two Z93 lines there (Altaian and Khakassian) are relatively young too, in comparison to lines such as Z2125 and L657, a few SNPs below Z93, are really old lines - just a couple of hundred years younger than Z93.