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Rathna
01-11-2014, 08:32 AM
At last I decided to use my Geno 2.0 kit for my relative Federighi and it has been posted yesterday to Houston (Texas).
MHK97 Federighi Santa Maria a Monte, Pisa, Italy
12 25 14 10 11 14 11 12 11 13 13 29 16 9 10 11 11 24 15 20 29 15 15 16 16 10 10 19 23 16 12 12 11 12 12 23 10 13 12 12 13 30 24
TKCMA Urovish Poland
12 24 14 10 11 14 11 12 12 13 14 29 17 9 10 11 11 25 15 19 30 15 15 15 16 12 10 19 23 16 16 17 18 38 39 12 12 12 11 12 12 23 10 13 12 12 12 30 24 11 9 15 16 8 10 10 8 11 10 21 23 16 10 12 12 14 8 22 20 12 11 13 10 11 12 12 9 11 15 9 16 12 10 12 12 11 10 12 12 11 10 26 26 19 12

The closest to Federighi is
1 14 13 29 25 11 13 12 11,14 12 11 15 20 16 16 23 11 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 M343
1 of 165 Nicaragua [Mestizo] Admixed Latin America
at a GD of 1: DYS391=11 instead of 10 and H4=10+1.
1 14 13 29 25 11 13 12 11,14 12 12 15 20 16 18 23 11 20 22 14 14 17 10 - >>
1 of 162 London, United Kingdom [English] Eurasian - European - Western European Europe
This sample from UK has DYS458=18.
The other values (20 22 14 14 17 10) aren't tested on Federighi.
Other closer values to investigate are these:
14 13 29 25 11 13 12 11,14 12 12 15 19 23 11 4 >>
14 13 29 25 11 13 12 11,14 12 12 15 20 23 12 3 >>
14 13 29 25 11 13 12 11,14 12 11 15 20 23 11 1 >>
--------------------------------------------------------------
The closest to Urovish and all the Jewish R-M269 cluster are these:
14 13 29 24 10 14 12 11,14 12 12 15 19 17 16 23 11 1 >>
1 14 13 29 24 10 14 12 11,14 12 12 15 19 17 16 23 11 17 22 13 12 18 11 - >>
This is a close match. About these values (17 22 13 12 18 11 )
DYS576= 17 (Urovish 17)
DYS481= 22 (Urovish 22)
DYS549= 13 (Urovish 12)
DYS533= 12 (Urovish 12)
DYS570= 18 (Urovish 18)
DYS643= 11 (Urovish 10)
there are two differences: DYS549 and DYS643, anyway close: difference of 1.
Other close haplotypes are these:
1 of 100 Budapest, Hungary [Hungarian] Eurasian - European - South-Eastern European Europe
14 13 29 24 10 14 12 11,14 12 12 15 19 16 17 23 11 1 >>
1 14 13 29 24 10 14 12 11,14 12 12 15 19 16 17 23 11 17 22 12 12 18 10

1 of 84 Vilnius, Lithuania [Lithuanian] Eurasian - European - Eastern European Europe
It is very likely that these haplotypes belong to Jews, seen also the places of origin, i.e. where the most part of the Ashkenazim lived.
But if we change only the values of DYS456 and DYD458, we have these samples:

14 13 29 24 10 13 12 11,14 12 12 15 19 16 17 23 11 1 >>
14 13 29 24 10 14 12 11,14 12 12 15 19 16 17 23 12 1 >>
1 14 13 29 24 10 14 12 11,14 12 12 15 19 16 17 23 12 19 24 12 12 18 10 - >>
1 of 244 Poznan, Poland [Polish] Eurasian - European - Eastern European Europe
They seem close, but the 6 markers added are very different:
19 24 12 12 18 10
as to
17 22 12 12 18 10
Which are the conclusions? If these haplotypes from YHRD are R-M269+/L150+/PF7558/62/63+, the variance of the European clusters is higher than the Jewish ones, i.e. the Jewish haplotype (which is only one with a few mutations happened in a range if a few centuries) is introgressed from European people.
The test on Federighi will try to answer about the origin of this European haplogroup, whose we already have a few samples from the Balkans to the Isles.

Rathna
01-11-2014, 03:39 PM
Of course we have a differing of opinion. I believe that both L584+ and L277+ are born from European R1b branches. We shall learn more as the Druze and Alawite samples are shown. In my opinion the Assyrian is just Iraqi with no special significant R1b signature, and with ANE admixture, they most likely they will be shown Iranian Turkish and Armenian R1b, as for the other Assyrian which are really Iraqi non R1b clades G1 J1 and J2a being most likely Arab and Jewish, but we shall have to wait and see with finer snp testing. Federighi is special and does not fit the L150 a or L150b which are the 2 special R1b Jewish sitr signature in Z2105 branch and show that they practiced endogamy in their small R1b Z2105 community, which makes them very special in our Z2105+ group just my opion. Anyway you can see very easy the difference DYS 426 combined with DYS 392.
http://www.familytreedna.com/public/JewishR1b/default.aspx?section=yresults

Silesian (and also rms2 who makes a claque hidden beyond a tree) I have said hundreds of times that these two haplogroups aren't unified by L150+ as the "Jewish R1b Project" pretends:

1) is R-M269+/L150+/PF7558+/PF7562+/PF7563+ but L23-/L49-/PF6404-/Z2103-/Z2105-
2) is R-L23+/L49+/L150+/PF6404+/Z2103+/Z2105+ and many other SNPs, and PF7558-/PF7562-/PF7563- etc.

Actually the only SNP in common after M269 is L150+, but only because this R-M269* has had the same mutation, but I asked many times if there are R-M269* with L150-. I haven't seen them so far, and all the R-M269 on the "Adriano Squecco spreadsheet" are L150+.
By the Geno 2.0 on Federighi I'll see also this. I expect he is L150+, because his haplotype, with DYS462=12, is the same of the Jewish cluster, but perhaps not all the R-M269* are L150+.

Silesian
01-11-2014, 04:00 PM
Silesian (and also rms2 who makes a claque hidden beyond a tree) I have said hundreds of times that these two haplogroups aren't unified by L150+ as the "Jewish R1b Project" pretends:

1) is R-M269+/L150+/PF7558+/PF7562+/PF7563+ but L23-/L49-/PF6404-/Z2103-/Z2105-
2) is R-L23+/L49+/L150+/PF6404+/Z2103+/Z2105+ and many other SNPs, and PF7558-/PF7562-/PF7563- etc.

Actually the only SNP in common after M269 is L150+, but only because this R-M269* has had the same mutation, but I asked many times if there are R-M269* with L150-. I haven't seen them so far, and all the R-M269 on the "Adriano Squecco spreadsheet" are L150+.
By the Geno 2.0 on Federighi I'll see also this. I expect he is L150+, because his haplotyp excelle, with DYS462=12, is the same of the Jewish cluster, but perhaps not all the R-M269* are L150+.
It's true there are two distinct R1b groups. However if you compare the R1a Levite Jewish you can see they also practiced endogamy. For me the confusion was trying link all the groups like Iraqis Alawites Druze so forth. We still really don't have a fully branched Z2105 tree with dated branches so, it is still very early. Anyway you bring up excellent points. Federighi is interesting I want to take a closer look a little bit later .

Rathna
01-11-2014, 04:57 PM
Silesian, as it happens in genetics, there has been a transmigration of a few bp from your X to your Y:

I expect he is L150+, because his haplotyp excelle, with DYS462=12, is the same of the Jewish cluster, but perhaps not all the R-M269* are L150+.

Anyway you bring up excellent points. Federighi is interesting I want to take a closer look a little bit later.

Silesian
01-11-2014, 09:07 PM
Silesian, as it happens in genetics, there has been a transmigration of a few bp from your X to your Y:

I expect he is L150+, because his haplotyp excelle, with DYS462=12, is the same of the Jewish cluster, but perhaps not all the R-M269* are L150+.

Anyway you bring up excellent points. Federighi is interesting I want to take a closer look a little bit later.

Okay with the resources and meager skills I calculated the time using str's, I know you do not like them, but that is all I have and very meek skill. Federighi and Italy KV7Y2 :) also Polish Ukraine and Lebanon.
Federighi is far from Polish/Ukraine TKCMA/YRA5P-10/30 generations 400-500+/- B.C TMRCA
TKCMA/YRA5P are in the same family 100% DYS 426-11 and DYS 392-14,-4/30 generation 1100+/- A.D TMCRA
Distance between Polish/Ukraine and Lebanon G5CCP 14/30 generations 1700 B.C+/- TMCRA
Frederighi and Italy KV7Y2 is 9/30 170+/- B.C

However distance between Federighi and Lebanon is 6/30 630A.D +/- TMRCA

They might not have the known snps to test for your theory yet.

Rathna
01-11-2014, 10:17 PM
Okay with the resources and meager skills I calculated the time using str's, I know you do not like them, but that is all I have and very meek skill. Federighi and Italy KV7Y2 :) also Polish Ukraine and Lebanon.
Federighi is far from Polish/Ukraine TKCMA/YRA5P-10/30 generations 400-500+/- B.C TMRCA
TKCMA/YRA5P are in the same family 100% DYS 426-11 and DYS 392-14,-4/30 generation 1100+/- A.D TMCRA
Distance between Polish/Ukraine and Lebanon G5CCP 14/30 generations 1700 B.C+/- TMCRA
Frederighi and Italy KV7Y2 is 9/30 170+/- B.C

However distance between Federighi and Lebanon is 6/30 630A.D +/- TMRCA

They might not have the known snps to test for your theory yet.

Silesian, KV7Y2 am I, and am R-Z2105 and (if Chromo 2 is reliable) I should be Z2110*, negative for CTS9219. Thus I should be compared only with those people who have my final SNP.
Federighi, even though has been tested only by SMGF (because it was for free) and not for any SNP, I presuppose he is R-M269*. The next test by Geno 2.0 will say if he is L150+ and PF7558/PF7562/PF7563+. In this case he may be compared only with those people who have his final SNP. Probably you know that many think that these R-M269 aren't the most ancient people with that mutation, but only a survived line more recent (and this should mean that all the lines derived from R-M269* went extinct) and this line should be recent only for the fact that his ancestor is one person descended from R-M269* but after having had many mutations which would be his "modal". If you don't understand (or don't accept this) it is difficult to agree about anything. But this implies that there are mutations hidden and not counted, then the age of an haplogroup is older. This is demonstrated just by the Full Y, if many think that a SNP is worth about 100 years. Of course this theory has defeated once for ever all the theories about the MRCA I am fighting against from many years. But already the STRs of the aDNA had demonstrated that that calculation should be multiplied for at least 2.5.
The recent paper of Rootsy et al. about the "Ashkenazi Levites" has demonstrated that between R-Z2110* and R-L584* there are at least 50 SNPs, i.e. a distance of 5000 years, and they found those SNPs not by testing the full genome, but only about 9Mbp (like the Big Y), thus a SNP should be worth more than 100 years.
When I compared my haplotype with that of Silver following the old methods (you are following yet) it seemed that we were separated by less than 2000 years but now we know that I am R-Z2110* and Silver is R-L584, thus at least we are separated from more than 5000 years, just 2000 multiplied for 2.5.
Of course you are free to follow your theories like all the others.

Silesian
01-11-2014, 10:28 PM
Silesian, KV7Y2 am I,

Of course I thought you might want private :) Silver is not to strong maybe his family used to be Catholic?[not many like him] so I use the two main unrelated branches L150A and L150B. Your theory is very interesting, but I don't think they have snp's discovered yet to prove one way or the other.

Rathna
01-11-2014, 10:57 PM
Your theory is very interesting, but I don't think they have snp's discovered yet to prove one way or the other.

We have discussed a lot about the paper of Rootsy et al., Phylogenetic applications of whole Y-chromosome sequences and the Near East origin of Ashkenazi Levites. Find it and the supplements and you'll find all what I said.

Joe B
01-12-2014, 02:13 AM
Of course I thought you might want private :) Silver is not to strong maybe his family used to be Catholic?[not many like him] so I use the two main unrelated branches L150A and L150B. Your theory is very interesting, but I don't think they have snp's discovered yet to prove one way or the other.
It's not a good idea to question someone's heritage. Mr. Silver has a strong history of supporting R1b-Z2103 phylogeny and research. We need his support and help. IMO

Rathna
03-12-2014, 01:48 PM
Federighi's kit, posted to Genographic on 10 January, is at the final stage (quality control), thus it has already been tested. Mangino sent his sample (already c/o FTDNA) in the last days of last year or at the beginning of this year: where has it ended now?
And Mattoli and his L277?

P.S. For Federighi will have also the coding region of his R0a2k!

Joe B
03-12-2014, 05:05 PM
Federighi's kit, posted to Genographic on 10 January, is at the final stage (quality control), thus it has already been tested. Mangino sent his sample (already c/o FTDNA) in the last days of last year or at the beginning of this year: where has it ended now?
And Mattoli and his L277?

P.S. For Federighi will have also the coding region of his R0a2k!
FTDNA must be behind schedule with SNP testing and maybe Geno 2.0 too. My guess is the same lab personnal are tied up with Big Y and the inherent problems of a new product launch. L277/S334.1 can be a tricky one to test. http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?1722-R1b-L277-1*-R1b-M269-gt-L23-gt-L150-gt-Z2103-gt-Z2105-gt-L277-1*-2014&p=25438&viewfull=1#post25438

Humanist
03-12-2014, 05:31 PM
P.S. For Federighi will have also the coding region of his R0a2k!

Is R0a2 not an exceedingly Arabian/East African lineage?

Rathna
03-12-2014, 06:11 PM
Is R0a2 not an exceedingly Arabian/East African lineage?

Perhaps you know I think having demonstrated from many years the other way around, i.e. that the origin of R0a, and after of HV and H is in Italy or in Europe. In the specific case of my cousin, he has been tested by SMGF and has the same HVRI and II of this Italian, and people of Yemen are a subclade of it, like in other many cases:
R0a2k T12295C
56. JF717355(Italy) Achilli R0a2k 14-SEP-2011
60.1T C64T A263G 315.1C A750G A1438G A2355G T2442C A2706G T3847C A4769G C7028T A8860G T12295C C13188T A13651G C14766T A15326G T15674C T16126C A16230G T16362C A16497G
R0a2k1 G3531A T3644C G3918A T5557C A10398G C16114T T16325C
57. HM185253(Yemen)Cerny R0a2k1 31-JUL-2010
T58C 60.1T C64T A263G 309.1C 309.2C 315.1C A750G A1438G A2355G T2442C A2619G A2706G G3531A T3644C T3847C G3918A A4769G T5557C C7028T A8860G A10398G G11453A T12295C C13188T T14634C C14766T A15326G T15674C C16114T T16126C T16325C T16362C T16519C
58. HM185254(Yemen)Cerny R0a2k1 31-JUL-2010
T58C 60.1T C64T A263G 309.1C 309.2C 315.1C A750G A1438G A2355G T2442C A2706G G3531A T3644C T3847C G3918A A4769G T5557C C7028T A8860G A10398G T12295C C13188T C14766T A15326G T15674C C16114T T16126C T16325C T16362C T16519C

FTDNA writes this, even though forbids to publish it, but I published it on 2012 on eng.molgen:
"Mitochondrial haplogroup R0a (formerly known as pre-HV1) is a primarily European haplogroup that was present in Europe beginning approximately 20,000 years ago. It occurs in very low frequency throughout Europe, and some descendant lineages of the original haplogroup R0a appear in the Near East as a result of migration. It was probably one of the original mitochondrial haplogroups in Europe, and likely pre-dates the occurrence of farming in Europe. Future work will better resolve the distribution and historical characteristics of this haplogroup.
USAGE POLICY: Use of the above Haplogroup description requires written permission from Gene by Gene".

It's enough for you?

newtoboard
03-12-2014, 06:28 PM
So FTDNA is the final source on the matter?

I am sure everybody on this forum would like to see some peer reviewed journal articles on the migration of R0a, HV and H. And preferably one documenting this migration from Italy to Western Europe, Northern Europe, Eastern Europe, the Balkans, West Asia, the Caucasus, Central Asia, Siberia, South Asia, North Africa and East Africa. Please share with us this information.

Rathna
03-12-2014, 09:30 PM
So FTDNA is the final source on the matter?

I am sure everybody on this forum would like to see some peer reviewed journal articles on the migration of R0a, HV and H. And preferably one documenting this migration from Italy to Western Europe, Northern Europe, Eastern Europe, the Balkans, West Asia, the Caucasus, Central Asia, Siberia, South Asia, North Africa and East Africa. Please share with us this information.

newtoboard, you have polemized many times with me in the past. I have to say that in these last times less, but I have always desired to know who you are, your Y, your mt, and also your autosome. Everyone knows who I am: my Y is R-Z2110* now, my mt is K1a1b1e.
Of course we find M and N, thus R, haplogroups in South Asia, and probably also R0 comes from there. But what I have always criticized was that every haplogroups came from Asia or Middle East, and recently, to Italy and to Europe. But someone lived here at least from 45,000 years ago.
I don't know if we can says that FTDNA is the last source of these theories, also because I am saying these things from many years and forums where FTDNA gets many "friends" banned me many times, and what FTDNA writes about R0a2 is for its customers but is forbidden its publication. Why? I am also the theorist of the "Italian Refugium", of the European origin not only of the most part of the Ashkenazi mtDNA but also of the great part of the Y, also those believed certainly of Middle Eastern origin.
Which are the proofs that R0a was in Europe more than 20,000 years ago as FTDNA says? It is enough that you look at Phylotree and where are the most ancient haplogroups. Anyway, as I have written in thousands of letters, even the haplogroups of Asian origin, like U7, have an U7a clearly born in Asia, but also an U7b mostly European, and also if it came ultimately from Asia, from its mutations it is clearly in Europe from many thousands of years and not come recently, as it has been said too many times with no proof.
The same for Y hg. R: R1b1/L389+ is from Italy. India has R1b1/L389-, and I am asking in vain that someone tests the Caucasian R1b1 for L389. As I have said many times, it is likely that Y hg. R came from Central Asia, but it may be in Europe from many thousands of years.
Now neither Michal doesn't exclude that also R1a* could have been born in Western Europe.
Of course I have written this already many years ago.

Rathna
03-19-2014, 03:15 AM
Fabrizio Federighi's results arrived. I don't give much importance to the "novel" that Mr Wells tells. I want results, but, after their transfer to FTDNA, they say that I'll be able to see them next day.
So far no surprise: mt R0a2, but I do know, from his HVRI and II tested by SMGF, that he is R0a2k that I'll be able to compare with the other Italian from Achilli's paper.
His Y, I supposed R-M269*/DYS462=12, is done like R-PF7558, but I am curious to see if he has also the other two PF mutations of the known so far R-M269*. Who has been tested by Geno 2.0 does know it, or if he breaks this series, which could be good for me and for my theories.
To-morrow we will know.
The FTDNA account is N119866, but his STRs are on Ysearch under surname Federighi.

parasar
03-19-2014, 03:38 AM
Now neither Michal doesn't exclude that also R1a* could have been born in Western Europe.
Of course I have written this already many years ago.

That used to be my thinking, but I think that has to be given up in light of physical evidence - a complete absence of R1a1 in N/C European Neolithic as well as the presence of pre-R derivative in Baikal as well a potential R-M417 in Afontova Gora.
It is indeed remarkable how in such short a time Y-R lineages have reached such proportions in Europe.

Rathna
03-19-2014, 03:51 AM
Results are ready, but FTDNA uses its wrong R-L150 (?)
---------------------------------------------------------
CTS10168+, CTS10362+, CTS10834+, CTS109+, CTS11358+, CTS11468+, CTS11575+, CTS11726+, CTS11985+, CTS12478+, CTS125+, CTS12632+, CTS1996+, CTS2134+, CTS2664+, CTS3063+, CTS3135+, CTS3331+, CTS3358+, CTS3431+, CTS3536+, CTS3575+, CTS3654+, CTS3662+, CTS3868+, CTS3996+, CTS4244+, CTS4364+, CTS4368+, CTS4437+, CTS4443+, CTS4740+, CTS5318+, CTS5457+, CTS5532+, CTS5577+, CTS5884+, CTS6135+, CTS623+, CTS6383+, CTS6800+, CTS6907+, CTS7400+, CTS7659+, CTS7922+, CTS7933+, CTS8243+, CTS8591+, CTS8665+, CTS8728+, CTS8980+, CTS9828+, F1046+, F115+, F1209+, F1302+, F1320+, F1329+, F1704+, F1714+, F1753+, F1767+, F1794+, F180+, F2048+, F2075+, F211+, F2142+, F2155+, F2302+, F2402+, F2587+, F2688+, F2710+, F2837+, F29+, F295+, F2985+, F2993+, F3111+, F313+, F3136+, F33+, F332+, F3335+, F344+, F3556+, F356+, F359+, F3692+, F378+, F4+, F47+, F506+, F556+, F63+, F640+, F647+, F652+, F671+, F719+, F82+, F83+, F93+, L132+, L15+, L150+, L16+, L265+, L278+, L350+, L388+, L389+, L407+, L468+, L470+, L471+, L482+, L483+, L498+, L500+, L502+, L506+, L585+, L721+, L747+, L752+, L754+, L761+, L768+, L773+, L774+, L779+, L82+, M139+, M168+, M207+, M235+, M294+, M343+, M415+, M42+, M45+, M526+, M89+, M94+, P128+, P131+, P132+, P135+, P136+, P138+, P14+, P141+, P145+, P146+, P148+, P151+, P158+, P159+, P160+, P166+, P187+, P207+, P225+, P226+, P228+, P229+, P230+, P232+, P233+, P235+, P236+, P237+, P238+, P240+, P242+, P243+, P244+, P245+, P280+, P281+, P282+, P283+, P284+, P285+, P286+, P295+, P297+, PAGES00083+, PF1016+, PF1029+, PF1031+, PF1040+, PF1046+, PF1061+, PF1092+, PF1097+, PF110+, PF1203+, PF1269+, PF1276+, PF192+, PF210+, PF212+, PF223+, PF234+, PF258+, PF2591+, PF2593+, PF2599+, PF2608+, PF2611+, PF2615+, PF2624+, PF263+, PF2643+, PF272+, PF2745+, PF2747+, PF2748+, PF2749+, PF2770+, PF278+, PF292+, PF316+, PF325+, PF342+, PF500+, PF5465+, PF5466+, PF5468+, PF5471+, PF5851+, PF5853+, PF5854+, PF5865+, PF5869+, PF5871+, PF5882+, PF5886+, PF5887+, PF5888+, PF5953+, PF5956+, PF5957+, PF5964+, PF5965+, PF5982+, PF6063+, PF6091+, PF6145+, PF6246+, PF6249+, PF6250+, PF6263+, PF6265+, PF6270+, PF6271+, PF6272+, PF6409+, PF6411+, PF6424+, PF6425+, PF6430+, PF6432+, PF6434+, PF6438+, PF6443+, PF6463+, PF6494+, PF6495+, PF6498+, PF6500+, PF6506+, PF6507+, PF6509+, PF6524+, PF667+, PF719+, PF725+, PF7558+, PF7562+, PF7563+, PF7566+, PF7569+, PF779+, PF796+, PF803+, PF815+, PF821+, PF840+, PF844+, PF892+, PF937+, PF951+, PF954+, PF970+, s10+, s3+, V186+, V189+, V205+, V52+, V9+, YSC0000067+, YSC0000072+, YSC0000075+, YSC0000166+, YSC0000176+, YSC0000179+, YSC0000182+, YSC0000186+, YSC0000194+, YSC0000201+, YSC0000203+, YSC0000205+, YSC0000207+, YSC0000213+, YSC0000219+, YSC0000224+, YSC0000225+, YSC0000227+, YSC0000230+, YSC0000232+, YSC0000233+, YSC0000251+, YSC0000269+, YSC0000270+, YSC0000279+, YSC0000288+, YSC0000294+
Your Confirmed Haplogroup: R-L150 [?]
----------------------------------------------
Of course I am not able to say anything about the fact that L566+,L781+, PF15+, PF2600+, PF2631+, PF6007+, PF601+, PF720+ lack, without the raw data.
He has the series PF7558+, PF7562+, PF7563+, but also PF7566+ and PF7569+ not found so far in the other people tested.

seferhabahir
03-19-2014, 04:50 AM
Interesting about PF7566+ and PF7569+

Rathna
03-19-2014, 06:57 AM
Interesting about PF7566+ and PF7569+

I suppose that they were found firstly in the Sardinian R-M269, and this could link Tuscan and Sardinian R-M269* haplotypes. Unfortunately the same Francalacci promised me to write something to me about my two PF SNPs from my Chromo2, but no answer so far. I hope that he is verifying some hypothesis of mine, like that to test the R1b1 of Caucasian origin for L389 beyond P25 or something similar. Unfortunately I have no lab and beyond paying some tests to other people I am not able to do other.
Certainly as to these R-M269 it is interesting that we have two cluster so far: the Jewish/Balkan/Irish one and this Tuscan/Sardinian one.
Of course we hope that other R-M269 are tested, like the Italian with YCAII=17-23 and the Caucasian ones.

Rathna
03-20-2014, 10:19 AM
Even though it isn't easy to interpret mtDNA data of Federighi, as given in RSRS and read sometime forwards and sometime reverse, I think I can say that his mt, already tested by SMGF with the mutations 60.1T C64T 263G 315.1C T16126C A16230G T16362C A16497G and belonging to the hg. R0a2k like JF717355 from Italy from the Achilli's paper, not only has in common with it the mutation A13651G but also an own mutation A2395t (for what I know not documented so far). Thus Federighi belongs to the Italian R0a2k, which is clearly the ancestor of the R0a2k1 found in Yemen by Cerny, and this fact confirms all my theories.
Of course these two Italian samples will be a new subclade of R0a2k*, having in common 4 mutations:
Private Mutations: A13651G; A16497G;
Topologically Missing: G16230A(L1'2'3'4'5'6); T58C(R0a'b);
[Behar 2012b, Hg. R0a2k]

Rathna
03-20-2014, 02:15 PM
It seems clear to me from the PF SNPs classification, due to national Geographic upon Francalacci's data, that:

PF7558 3489974 3429974 no no yes no no G -> A
PF7559 6900580 6840580 no no no no no C -> G
PF7560 6914130 6854130 no no yes no no C -> T
PF7561 7742956 7682956 no no yes no no G -> A
PF7562 8012440 7952440 no no yes no no C -> T
PF7563 8670246 8610246 no no yes no no G -> A
PF7564 13973041 15463647 no no yes no no C -> T
PF7565 14306212 15796818 no no no no no C -> A
PF7566 14742512 16233118 no no yes no no G -> T
PF7567 15233918 16724524 no no no no no C -> T
PF7568 15446106 16936712 no no yes no no G -> A
PF7569 16674122 18164728 no no yes no no G -> A
PF7570 17082620 18573226 no no yes no no C -> T
PF7571 17497137 18987743 no no yes no no T -> C
PF7572 19765285 21305897 no no yes no no T -> C
PF7573 21120356 22710968 no no yes no no A -> G

these are R-M269 SNPs.
These

PF7574 8189109 8129109 no no no no no C -> T
PF7575 PF7575 Z2104 12677962 14167962 no no no no no C -> T
PF7576 12907993 14397986 no no yes no no G -> T
PF7577 14286425 15777031 no no yes no no G -> A
PF7578 15291267 16781873 no no no no no A -> T
PF7579 16004554 17495160 no no yes no no G -> T
PF7580 16195351 17685957 no no yes no no C -> A
PF7581 17809961 19300567 no no yes no no G -> T
PF7582 18046949 19537555 no no yes no no C -> A
PF7583 19778357 21318969 no no yes no no G -> T
PF7584 20494044 22034656 no no yes no no G -> T
PF7585 21493591 23084203 no no yes no no T -> C
PF7586 15426705 16917311 no no yes no no A -> G
PF7587 22891940 24482552 no no yes no no T -> C

are R-L23 SNPs.
These

PF7588 6813937 6753937 no no yes no no G -> A
PF7589 PF7589 Z2118 8127783 8067783 no no yes no no A -> G
PF7590 12609240 14099240 no no no no no C -> T
PF7591 20675701 22216313 no no yes no no C -> T
PF7592 CTS11824 PF7592 21706211 23296823 no no no no no G -> A

are R-L51 SNPs. (Of course amongst those found in the Sardinian pool).

Rathna
03-20-2014, 03:00 PM
PF7558 3489974 3429974 no no yes no no G -> A
PF7559 6900580 6840580 no no no no no C -> G
PF7560 6914130 6854130 no no yes no no C -> T
PF7561 7742956 7682956 no no yes no no G -> A
PF7562 8012440 7952440 no no yes no no C -> T
PF7563 8670246 8610246 no no yes no no G -> A
PF7564 13973041 15463647 no no yes no no C -> T
PF7565 14306212 15796818 no no no no no C -> A
PF7566 14742512 16233118 no no yes no no G -> T
PF7567 15233918 16724524 no no no no no C -> T
PF7568 15446106 16936712 no no yes no no G -> A
PF7569 16674122 18164728 no no yes no no G -> A
PF7570 17082620 18573226 no no yes no no C -> T
PF7571 17497137 18987743 no no yes no no T -> C
PF7572 19765285 21305897 no no yes no no T -> C
PF7573 21120356 22710968 no no yes no no A -> G

If we exclude
PF7559 6900580 6840580 no no no no no C -> G
PF7565 14306212 15796818 no no no no no C -> A
PF7567 15233918 16724524 no no no no no C -> T
not tested from Geno 2.0, we may begin to hypothesize a tree of R-M269*.
1)
PF7558 3489974 3429974 no no yes no no G -> A
PF7562 8012440 7952440 no no yes no no C -> T
PF7563 8670246 8610246 no no yes no no G -> A
(the cluster from the Balkans to the Isles)
2)
PF7566 14742512 16233118 no no yes no no G -> T
PF7569 16674122 18164728 no no yes no no G -> A
(the Tuscan cluster)
3)
all the other PF SNPs
(the Sardinian cluster).

At this point perhaps would be interesting to test LoPiccolo, I linked to the Sardinian cluster from his STRs values.

Rathna
03-21-2014, 11:11 AM
Of course I am not able to say anything about the fact that L566+,L781+, PF15+, PF2600+, PF2631+, PF6007+, PF601+, PF720+ lack, without the raw data.


These SNPs are signaled any more because ancestral, in great part already in hg. P, except PF6007.