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maroco
10-13-2019, 11:52 PM
Would appreciate some help with this haplogroup.

Principe
10-14-2019, 12:00 AM
I belong to L210, its very common amongst Ashkenazi Jews, small amounts in Sephardic Jews. In Europe its most common in Italians and Spaniards. There are others in Europe, in the Middle East its mostly found in Turks, the rest in smaller proportions would include Iranian Armenian royalty, Lebanese, Syrians, Kurds, in Yemen and Egypt of course it depends on the placement of the branch.

L210 dates to roughly 5200 ybp, originating somewhere in the Middle East, judging from the oldest samples somewhere around the Turkey-Syria border.

maroco
10-14-2019, 12:11 AM
Iím of Moroccan descent, placement of the branch?. I can post a screen shot of my Morley dna prediction if you like

Principe
10-14-2019, 12:13 AM
I’m of Moroccan descent, placement of the branch?. I can post a screen shot of my Morley dna prediction if you like

You would need to test further on a site like ftdna. Its cool by the way your the first Moroccan L210!

maroco
10-14-2019, 12:21 AM
thatís why I had to branch out to other forums nobody in my group had this haplogroup, thankfully I found you. Just another question, whatís the difference between isogg tree and experimental tree on Morley dna when doing the prediction. Here is the link to the prediction https://imgur.com/rqc7wG4

Principe
10-14-2019, 12:24 AM
that’s why I had to branch out to other forums nobody in my group had this haplogroup, thankfully I found you. Just another question, what’s the difference between isogg tree and experimental tree on Morley dna when doing the prediction. Here is the link to the prediction https://imgur.com/rqc7wG4

From the image its looks like your also Z489, you have 2 positives on the L210 branch. I don’t know but with Morley its calling snps for a positive.

maroco
10-14-2019, 12:33 AM
What would that mean, my Y line will be the same as yours?

Principe
10-14-2019, 12:38 AM
What would that mean being z489, that was on a experimental tree. Sorry I’m not great with these things

No worries, ask away! It would mean you belong to a branch under L210, well you have the positive for L227 which is usually indicative of Z489, to see if you belong to further branches you would need to upload your data to ftdna and order a Y test either snp or Y12-Y37.

J Man
10-14-2019, 12:39 AM
What would that mean, my Y line will be the same as yours?

Are you Berber?

maroco
10-14-2019, 12:46 AM
Yes, I am

maroco
10-14-2019, 12:47 AM
Thanks, youíve being a great help

J Man
10-14-2019, 12:49 AM
Yes, I am

Nice...Do you belong to a particular tribe?

maroco
10-14-2019, 12:51 AM
Yes, Rif.

maroco
10-14-2019, 12:55 AM
I think Iíve got an idea of where it came from, but there is many possibilities. We were invaded by the ottomans. I canít think of anyone else, there was Phoenicians in Morocco as well but I donít believe itís from them. I was quiet shocked I was the only one from my background to score it.

Principe
10-14-2019, 12:59 AM
Yes, Rif.

A very good friend of mine is Berber, he’s from Ouarzazate, well a little village just outside of it! Do you know this place?

Principe
10-14-2019, 01:05 AM
I think I’ve got an idea of where it came from, but there is many possibilities. We were invaded by the ottomans. I can’t think of anyone else, there was Phoenicians in Morocco as well but I don’t believe it’s from them. I was quiet shocked I was the only one from my background to score it.

It all depends on where your paternal ancestry comes from in Morocco, if your paternal side came from a city like Marrakesh, Tangiers, Fez or Casablanca the odds would be higher for an Ottoman explanation. If you come from a more remote village than the Phoenician explanation would make much more sense because your paternal line had time to move.

maroco
10-14-2019, 01:05 AM
Yes, itís beautiful, Iíve never being before. Iíve only ever stayed in Tangier and tetouan. I plan on visiting more places when I go back for my holidays, but most of my family is located in Tangier

maroco
10-14-2019, 01:06 AM
My uncle said we are from Taourirt

maroco
10-14-2019, 01:07 AM
DescriptionTaourirt is a town in Taourirt Province in the northern part of Morocco. Situated in the Oriental region about 100 km west to the city of Oujda. Iíve never being to be honest it looks small though on the map

maroco
10-14-2019, 01:13 AM
They did move from taourirt down south

Principe
10-14-2019, 01:16 AM
My uncle said we are from Taourirt

The area North had a heavy Phoenician presence and later Carthaginian one, I think this would be the most likely scenario of your direct paternal line, I would say it with 95% confidence!

maroco
10-14-2019, 01:21 AM
Thanks, youíve being a great help. Iíll test with FTdna and will let you know the results once I have them

maroco
10-14-2019, 08:39 PM
Also I donít know if this will be useful or not, but my family name is Ancient Greek in origin

alchemist223
10-16-2020, 03:59 PM
This could very well be the potential Y-DNA of my maternal family, who is from Calabria, Italy. Looking forward to learning more!

Devadatta
10-19-2020, 12:11 PM
I see a lot of Eastern and Central European flags on https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-L210/, do you think the J-L210 branches in Russia, Ukraine, Belarus, Lithuania, Poland and Germany are of Jewish origin (at least for the paternal haplogroup)? mine could hypothetically be J-Y81401, as it's found on those two people from my paternal ancestry's region (now called Ivano-Frankivsk). could it gotten to Hutsuls/Rusyns from Jews or could it be a regional development from another source (Neolithic, Steppe etc).

SUPREEEEEME
10-19-2020, 01:44 PM
I see a lot of Eastern and Central European flags on https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-L210/, do you think the J-L210 branches in Russia, Ukraine, Belarus, Lithuania, Poland and Germany are of Jewish origin (at least for the paternal haplogroup)? mine could hypothetically be J-Y81401, as it's found on those two people from my paternal ancestry's region (now called Ivano-Frankivsk). could it gotten to Hutsuls/Rusyns from Jews or could it be a regional development from another source (Neolithic, Steppe etc).

To my understanding, all the branches under J-Y15223 are Jewish. But I'm not as knowledgeable about this clade as my own.

Principe
10-19-2020, 01:52 PM
I see a lot of Eastern and Central European flags on https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-L210/, do you think the J-L210 branches in Russia, Ukraine, Belarus, Lithuania, Poland and Germany are of Jewish origin (at least for the paternal haplogroup)? mine could hypothetically be J-Y81401, as it's found on those two people from my paternal ancestry's region (now called Ivano-Frankivsk). could it gotten to Hutsuls/Rusyns from Jews or could it be a regional development from another source (Neolithic, Steppe etc).

Devadatta, yes all of the flags you see under J-Y15223 are Ashkenazi. There does seem to ethnic Ukrainians and Russians under J-L210, which company have you tested with?

Devadatta
10-19-2020, 02:22 PM
Devadatta, yes all of the flags you see under J-Y15223 are Ashkenazi. There does seem to ethnic Ukrainians and Russians under J-L210, which company have you tested with?

tested with 23andme back in 2011. I don't know my subclade, I only know it is something under J-L210 because I've got negative calls for the other two sub-branches of J-M67. paternal side is Ukrainian (Carpathian Rusnak / Hutsul, how you want to call it) with recent Polish and possibly German ancestry (our village was populated by Orthodox Ukrainians and Lutheran Germans until WW1, but as only few Germans stayed, now it is exclusively Ukrainian, ethnically). I myself am mixed, though, as mom is West Moldovan (mt DNA H14b)

Principe
10-19-2020, 02:40 PM
tested with 23andme back in 2011. I don't know my subclade, I only know it is something under J-L210 because I've got negative calls for the other two sub-branches of J-M67. paternal side is Ukrainian (Carpathian Rusnak / Hutsul, how you want to call it) with recent Polish and possibly German ancestry (our village was populated by Orthodox Ukrainians and Lutheran Germans until WW1, but as only few Germans stayed, now it is exclusively Ukrainian, ethnically). I myself am mixed, though, as mom is West Moldovan (mt DNA H14b)

Thanks for the response, by other two branches you mean Z7671 and Z500? There is 3 sub branches under Z467, have you checked S11842? There is one SK1336 Ukrainian, there probably is some under S21160/Z6271, but odds are L210, there is a bit of presence in the area, I suggest transferring to ftdna and order a Y37 test.

alchemist223
10-19-2020, 02:53 PM
Interestingly, this is one of the haplogroups that pops up in some European gentiles as well as Ashkenazi Jews, mostly from different branches. Some carriers maybe descendants of Jewish converts to Christianity, however. I suspect the origins of this haplogroup are in the Caucasus, with it being found in the Chalcolithic/Early Bronze Age site of Arslantepe in Turkey.

maroco
10-19-2020, 10:10 PM
Interestingly, this is one of the haplogroups that pops up in some European gentiles as well as Ashkenazi Jews, mostly from different branches. Some carriers maybe descendants of Jewish converts to Christianity, however. I suspect the origins of this haplogroup are in the Caucasus, with it being found in the Chalcolithic/Early Bronze Age site of Arslantepe in Turkey.
I highly doubt it comes from the Caucasus considering I’m Moroccan that’s highly unlikely

alchemist223
10-19-2020, 10:15 PM
I highly doubt it comes from the Caucasus considering I’m Moroccan that’s highly unlikely

It was found in a Chalcolithic/EBA site, Arslantepe, in Turkey circa 3300 BC (ART023), and other clades of J2a-M67 have been found among the Hurrians and in the Kura-Araxes culture (both of which have ties to the Caucasus). I think that it is at least a plausible theory, if not 100% accurate. We would need to see more North African samples of J-L210 for me to conclude that it did not come from the Caucasus or perhaps Mesopotamia/Iran.

maroco
10-19-2020, 10:31 PM
It was found in a Chalcolithic/EBA site, Arslantepe, in Turkey circa 3300 BC (ART023), and other clades of J2a-M67 have been found among the Hurrians and in the Kura-Araxes culture (both of which have ties to the Caucasus). I think that it is at least a plausible theory, if not 100% accurate. We would need to see more North African samples of J-L210 for me to conclude that it did not come from the Caucasus or perhaps Mesopotamia/Iran.

It makes more sense for it to be moorish or Carthaginian considering my tmrca and the history of my region both those options are not plausible. If I had a young tmrca and I wasn’t basal then I would be fully on board with your theory

maroco
10-19-2020, 11:14 PM
Deleted

StillWater
10-19-2020, 11:23 PM
It was found in a Chalcolithic/EBA site, Arslantepe, in Turkey circa 3300 BC (ART023), and other clades of J2a-M67 have been found among the Hurrians and in the Kura-Araxes culture (both of which have ties to the Caucasus). I think that it is at least a plausible theory, if not 100% accurate. We would need to see more North African samples of J-L210 for me to conclude that it did not come from the Caucasus or perhaps Mesopotamia/Iran.

There is no conflict with a Carthaginian carrying a Hurrian lineage.

alchemist223
10-20-2020, 12:03 AM
There is no conflict with a Carthaginian carrying a Hurrian lineage.

Good point, this clade could have come from Phoenicians as well in North Africa.

J Man
10-20-2020, 01:21 AM
It was found in a Chalcolithic/EBA site, Arslantepe, in Turkey circa 3300 BC (ART023), and other clades of J2a-M67 have been found among the Hurrians and in the Kura-Araxes culture (both of which have ties to the Caucasus). I think that it is at least a plausible theory, if not 100% accurate. We would need to see more North African samples of J-L210 for me to conclude that it did not come from the Caucasus or perhaps Mesopotamia/Iran.

I don't think that there are any ancient Kura-Araxes J2a samples yet. None have shown up so far.

alchemist223
10-20-2020, 12:55 PM
I don't think that there are any ancient Kura-Araxes J2a samples yet. None have shown up so far.

Thanks for notifying me. Probably just originated somewhere in the Caucasus then.

Principe
10-20-2020, 01:12 PM
I don't think that there are any ancient Kura-Araxes J2a samples yet. None have shown up so far.

We still only have a small sample size, surely J2 existed amongst Kura Araxes, I think majority will be J2.

J Man
10-20-2020, 02:11 PM
We still only have a small sample size, surely J2 existed amongst Kura Araxes, I think majority will be J2.

That is certainly possible.

Principe
10-20-2020, 02:12 PM
That is certainly possible.

I am 100% certain J2 existed amongst Kura Araxes, it wouldn’t make sense if there wasn’t.

maroco
10-20-2020, 05:41 PM
I am 100% certain J2 existed amongst Kura Araxes, it wouldn’t make sense if there wasn’t.
Wasn’t there a Lebanese guy under Our branch of I recall

Principe
10-20-2020, 06:29 PM
Wasn’t there a Lebanese guy under Our branch of I recall

There is a Lebanese under Z447, there is a Syrian and Egyptian under L210.

maroco
10-23-2020, 05:46 PM
40575
My str matches two Ukrainians and a Russian

maroco
11-09-2020, 02:17 PM
Does anyone have any information on the sample at j-cts2282 please, it just says unknown.
https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-CTS2282/

Principe
11-09-2020, 02:59 PM
Does anyone have any information on the sample at j-cts2282 please, it just says unknown.
https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-CTS2282/

Yeah he is American from what I remember.

maroco
11-23-2020, 09:19 AM
With the new nebula data that I’ve uploaded I seem to have gotten one close match in my str matches which I had none in my Dante labs data.
41347
Found it interesting thought I would share. I’m still waiting for manual verification

maroco
01-14-2021, 08:57 PM
I had a match on 23 and me who says his fathers family is from Palermo
4256842569

maroco
02-10-2021, 06:57 AM
My friend found some news:

“ We are close to the truth: ours. FTDNA says that 5 persons have been tested at the J-Y15245 level, and are all Western Europeans: Gambarone and people from France, USA, Ireland, Germany. Downstream with two SNPs in common there is Cottini from Italy and a person from the British Isles. In another subclade there is a German. Jews are all downstream with more than 20 SNPs, thus very recent and their ancestor is Euriopean if all the people upstream are European, Upstream and older there is Sam and you at the J-Y15222 level, Upstream there are Italians and pepole from Caucasus and Eastern Europe.”

Not all the persons tested with a Big Y are in the FTDNA project. Anyway they are all Western Europeans:
N147294 Garambone, Aliano, 1770's Matera, Basilicata Italy J-Y15245
12 23 14 10 13-17 11 16 11 13 11 30 17 9-9 11 11 25 15 20 29 12-14-15-16 10 11 19-22 15 13 19 17 36-38 12 9 10 7 15-15 8 11 10 8 11 9 12 17-17 14 10 12 12 16 8 10 21 21 13 12 11 13 10 12 12 11 32 17 8 14 11 25 27 19 11 12 14 11 11 10 11 11 10 11 11 32 12 12 22 14 10 11 23 15 19 11 23 15 12 16 26 12 23 19 10 15 19 9 12 11
B179768 Pedro de Larranaga 1642 Spain J-Y15245
12 23 14 10 13-17 11 16 11 13 11 31 18 9-9 11 11 26 15 20 30 12-14-15-16 11 11 19-22 14 13 18 16 38-39 12 9 10 7 15-15 8 11 10 8 11 10 12 17-17 14 12 12 12 15 8 11 21 21 13 12 11 13 10 12 12 11 31 17 7 14 11 25 27 19 11 12 12 11 11 10 11 11 10 11 11 31 12 12 22 14 10 10 24 15 20 10 22 15 12 15 24 12 23 19 10 16 19 9 12 11
N70674 Cottini, Caravate, Varese, Lombardia Italy J-FT178189
12 24 14 10 13-13 11 16 11 13 11 30 17 8-9 11 11 26 15 20 31 12-15-15-16 10 10 19-22 15 13 19 15 38-40 12 9 174931 Henry Hiestand Germany J-Z30386
12 24 14 10 13-17 11 16 12 12 11 29 17 9-9 11 11 26 15 20 30 12-12-14-14 11 11 19-22 15 13 19 17 37-37 12 9 10 7 15-15 8 12 10 8 11 9 12 17-17 14 11 12 12 14 8 11 21 21 13 12 11 13 10 12 12 11 32 17 8 14 11 25 26 19 11 12 12 11 11 10 11 11 10 10 11 31 12 12 22 14 10 10 25 16 19 10 22 15 12 16 25 12 24 19 10 15 19 9 12 11
N155778 Daniel George Henningfeld, b. 1944 Indiana USA United States J-Z482
12 25 14 10 13-17 11 16 11 13 11 30 17 9-9 11 11 25 15 20 30 12-14-15-16 10 11 19-22 15 13 19 17 34-40 12 9 10 7 15-15 8 11 10 8 11 9 12 17-17 14 11 12 12 16 8 11 22 21 13 12 11 13 10 12 12 11 31 17 8 14 11 25 27 19 11 12 12 11 11 10 11 11 10 11 11 31 12 12 22 14 10 10 26 15 19 10 22 15 12 16 25 12 23 19 10 14 19 9 12 11

J Man
02-10-2021, 02:10 PM
My friend found some news:

“ We are close to the truth: ours. FTDNA says that 5 persons have been tested at the J-Y15245 level, and are all Western Europeans: Gambarone and people from France, USA, Ireland, Germany. Downstream with two SNPs in common there is Cottini from Italy and a person from the British Isles. In another subclade there is a German. Jews are all downstream with more than 20 SNPs, thus very recent and their ancestor is Euriopean if all the people upstream are European, Upstream and older there is Sam and you at the J-Y15222 level, Upstream there are Italians and pepole from Caucasus and Eastern Europe.”

Not all the persons tested with a Big Y are in the FTDNA project. Anyway they are all Western Europeans:
N147294 Garambone, Aliano, 1770's Matera, Basilicata Italy J-Y15245
12 23 14 10 13-17 11 16 11 13 11 30 17 9-9 11 11 25 15 20 29 12-14-15-16 10 11 19-22 15 13 19 17 36-38 12 9 10 7 15-15 8 11 10 8 11 9 12 17-17 14 10 12 12 16 8 10 21 21 13 12 11 13 10 12 12 11 32 17 8 14 11 25 27 19 11 12 14 11 11 10 11 11 10 11 11 32 12 12 22 14 10 11 23 15 19 11 23 15 12 16 26 12 23 19 10 15 19 9 12 11
B179768 Pedro de Larranaga 1642 Spain J-Y15245
12 23 14 10 13-17 11 16 11 13 11 31 18 9-9 11 11 26 15 20 30 12-14-15-16 11 11 19-22 14 13 18 16 38-39 12 9 10 7 15-15 8 11 10 8 11 10 12 17-17 14 12 12 12 15 8 11 21 21 13 12 11 13 10 12 12 11 31 17 7 14 11 25 27 19 11 12 12 11 11 10 11 11 10 11 11 31 12 12 22 14 10 10 24 15 20 10 22 15 12 15 24 12 23 19 10 16 19 9 12 11
N70674 Cottini, Caravate, Varese, Lombardia Italy J-FT178189
12 24 14 10 13-13 11 16 11 13 11 30 17 8-9 11 11 26 15 20 31 12-15-15-16 10 10 19-22 15 13 19 15 38-40 12 9 174931 Henry Hiestand Germany J-Z30386
12 24 14 10 13-17 11 16 12 12 11 29 17 9-9 11 11 26 15 20 30 12-12-14-14 11 11 19-22 15 13 19 17 37-37 12 9 10 7 15-15 8 12 10 8 11 9 12 17-17 14 11 12 12 14 8 11 21 21 13 12 11 13 10 12 12 11 32 17 8 14 11 25 26 19 11 12 12 11 11 10 11 11 10 10 11 31 12 12 22 14 10 10 25 16 19 10 22 15 12 16 25 12 24 19 10 15 19 9 12 11
N155778 Daniel George Henningfeld, b. 1944 Indiana USA United States J-Z482
12 25 14 10 13-17 11 16 11 13 11 30 17 9-9 11 11 25 15 20 30 12-14-15-16 10 11 19-22 15 13 19 17 34-40 12 9 10 7 15-15 8 11 10 8 11 9 12 17-17 14 11 12 12 16 8 11 22 21 13 12 11 13 10 12 12 11 31 17 8 14 11 25 27 19 11 12 12 11 11 10 11 11 10 11 11 31 12 12 22 14 10 10 26 15 19 10 22 15 12 16 25 12 23 19 10 14 19 9 12 11

So the Jews that are downstream from you are descended from a European convert at some point in the past...That is interesting.

StillWater
02-10-2021, 03:34 PM
My friend found some news:

“ We are close to the truth: ours. FTDNA says that 5 persons have been tested at the J-Y15245 level, and are all Western Europeans: Gambarone and people from France, USA, Ireland, Germany. Downstream with two SNPs in common there is Cottini from Italy and a person from the British Isles. In another subclade there is a German. Jews are all downstream with more than 20 SNPs, thus very recent and their ancestor is Euriopean if all the people upstream are European, Upstream and older there is Sam and you at the J-Y15222 level, Upstream there are Italians and pepole from Caucasus and Eastern Europe.”

Not all the persons tested with a Big Y are in the FTDNA project. Anyway they are all Western Europeans:
N147294 Garambone, Aliano, 1770's Matera, Basilicata Italy J-Y15245
12 23 14 10 13-17 11 16 11 13 11 30 17 9-9 11 11 25 15 20 29 12-14-15-16 10 11 19-22 15 13 19 17 36-38 12 9 10 7 15-15 8 11 10 8 11 9 12 17-17 14 10 12 12 16 8 10 21 21 13 12 11 13 10 12 12 11 32 17 8 14 11 25 27 19 11 12 14 11 11 10 11 11 10 11 11 32 12 12 22 14 10 11 23 15 19 11 23 15 12 16 26 12 23 19 10 15 19 9 12 11
B179768 Pedro de Larranaga 1642 Spain J-Y15245
12 23 14 10 13-17 11 16 11 13 11 31 18 9-9 11 11 26 15 20 30 12-14-15-16 11 11 19-22 14 13 18 16 38-39 12 9 10 7 15-15 8 11 10 8 11 10 12 17-17 14 12 12 12 15 8 11 21 21 13 12 11 13 10 12 12 11 31 17 7 14 11 25 27 19 11 12 12 11 11 10 11 11 10 11 11 31 12 12 22 14 10 10 24 15 20 10 22 15 12 15 24 12 23 19 10 16 19 9 12 11
N70674 Cottini, Caravate, Varese, Lombardia Italy J-FT178189
12 24 14 10 13-13 11 16 11 13 11 30 17 8-9 11 11 26 15 20 31 12-15-15-16 10 10 19-22 15 13 19 15 38-40 12 9 174931 Henry Hiestand Germany J-Z30386
12 24 14 10 13-17 11 16 12 12 11 29 17 9-9 11 11 26 15 20 30 12-12-14-14 11 11 19-22 15 13 19 17 37-37 12 9 10 7 15-15 8 12 10 8 11 9 12 17-17 14 11 12 12 14 8 11 21 21 13 12 11 13 10 12 12 11 32 17 8 14 11 25 26 19 11 12 12 11 11 10 11 11 10 10 11 31 12 12 22 14 10 10 25 16 19 10 22 15 12 16 25 12 24 19 10 15 19 9 12 11
N155778 Daniel George Henningfeld, b. 1944 Indiana USA United States J-Z482
12 25 14 10 13-17 11 16 11 13 11 30 17 9-9 11 11 25 15 20 30 12-14-15-16 10 11 19-22 15 13 19 17 34-40 12 9 10 7 15-15 8 11 10 8 11 9 12 17-17 14 11 12 12 16 8 11 22 21 13 12 11 13 10 12 12 11 31 17 8 14 11 25 27 19 11 12 12 11 11 10 11 11 10 11 11 31 12 12 22 14 10 10 26 15 19 10 22 15 12 16 25 12 23 19 10 14 19 9 12 11

I assume this is from our mutual friend. Hope he is doing well.

Re: Our friend's description of J-Y15245 - there are many clear J2 MENA branches that only have Europeans to date within last 2500 years (You can find examples in J-L70. Others are J-Y17946,J-P279,J-SK1344,J-Y6240,J-Z6271,J-M205 (Levantine adna),J-FGC33311,J-Z515,J-S8320,J-SK1336.). This shouldn't be surprising, as TMRCA =/= migration date and absence of evidence isn't evidence of absence. Regardless, there is a sample from the Abu Hashim study in J-Y15245, so the leading statement that they're all West Europeans (mostly South Europeans, really) is false. There are at least 2 known MENA branches in J-Y15222 aside from yourself. One is a Yemeni; the other is from the Abu Hashim study. Everyone who has been discussing this branch has either learned of them or been informed of them. Odd that they're not mentioned. When one goes up to J-Z482, there is another Jewish clade. It's fair that you aren't aware of it - few people are. It was discovered recently. There is a good chance that some of the L210 Cypriots are in Z482. I assume the Caucasus sample our friend is referring to is the Armenian in Z489*. The Armenians there are from Iran and the at the Z489 level, there are other Middle Easterners (Arabic and Turkish- one of the Arabs at this level might be in Y15222; he already is 1 marker off being in z482). There are also Kurds and Iranians in L210, who I bet are in Z489 and wouldn't be shocked if they're in z482. As you know, Arabs are at the early splits of L210.

maroco
02-10-2021, 03:41 PM
I assume this is from our mutual friend. Hope he is doing well.

Re: Our friend's description of J-Y15245 - there are many clear J2 MENA branches that only have Europeans to date within last 2500 years (You can find examples in J-L70. Others are J-Y17946,J-P279,J-SK1344,J-Y6240,J-Z6271,J-M205 (Levantine adna),J-FGC33311,J-Z515,J-S8320,J-SK1336.). This shouldn't be surprising, as TMRCA =/= migration date and absence of evidence isn't evidence of absence. Regardless, there is a sample from the Abu Hashim study in J-Y15245, so the leading statement that they're all West Europeans (mostly South Europeans, really) is false. There are at least 2 known MENA branches in J-Y15222 aside from yourself. One is a Yemeni; the other is from the Abu Hashim study. Everyone who has been discussing this branch has either learned of them or been informed of them. Odd that they're not mentioned. When one goes up to J-Z482, there is another Jewish clade. It's fair that you aren't aware of it - few people are. It was discovered recently. There is a good chance that some of the L210 Cypriots are in Z482. I assume the Caucasus sample our friend is referring to is the Armenian in Z489*. The Armenians there are from Iran and the at the Z489 level, there are other Middle Easterners (Arabic and Turkish- one of the Arabs at this level might be in Y15222; he already is 1 marker off being in z482). There are also Kurds and Iranians in L210, who I bet are in Z489 and wouldn't be shocked if they're in z482. As you know, Arabs are at the early splits of L210.

I actually compared my strs to the sample in the Abu Hashim study we are not a match. The rest of it seems to be just pure speculation on your part we are talking about J-y15222 and down stream. You are using a lot of might and good chance, this is pure speculation please bring facts

StillWater
02-10-2021, 03:58 PM
I actually compared my strs to the sample in the Abu Hashim study we are not a match. The rest of it seems to be just pure speculation on your part we are talking about J-y15222 and down stream. You are using a lot of might and good chance, this is pure speculation please bring facts

You're off modal for J-Y15222's STRs. You shouldn't expect to match him. Others in J-Y15222 aren't STR matches to one another.

You can't fault me for discussing the upstream of J-Y15222, as what you pasted did that. Ignoring the facts I mentioned for the qualified speculation at the end is intellectually dishonest.

maroco
02-10-2021, 04:08 PM
You're off modal for J-Y15222's STRs. You shouldn't expect to match him. Others in J-Y15222 aren't STR matches to one another.

You can't fault me for discussing the upstream of J-Y15222, as what you pasted did that. Ignoring the facts I mentioned for the qualified speculation at the end is intellectually dishonest.

It’s not intellectually dishonest because none of the people you mentioned are confirmed to
Be j-y15222, what is dishonest is you speculating

Principe
02-10-2021, 04:35 PM
The Abu Hashim participant is 100% going to be J-Y15245, it is not intellectual dishonest, he matches several members of J-Y15245 and J-Y15223 at Y67, Nevgen predicts him to be J-L210 at 100% with a fitness over 1 which means he is without a doubt in this clade. The same situation with the Yemeni who is also 100% str confirmed to be in the clade, if we were talking Y12 or Y25 than it would be correct to question the placement but at over Y37 and Y67 to be 100% predicted its confirmed.

Like Stillwater mentioned J-Y15222 is not unique in the J2 tree, several E (xV13) and J1 clades have similar situations going on.

maroco
02-10-2021, 04:39 PM
You're off modal for J-Y15222's STRs. You shouldn't expect to match him. Others in J-Y15222 aren't STR matches to one another.

You can't fault me for discussing the upstream of J-Y15222, as what you pasted did that. Ignoring the facts I mentioned for the qualified speculation at the end is intellectually dishonest.

Why do you sign your y dna as J l210 when weíve seen your strs and terminal snps?

Principe
02-10-2021, 04:41 PM
Why do you sign your y dna as J l210 when we’ve seen your strs and terminal snps?

Maroco, he is snp confirmed to be L210.

StillWater
02-10-2021, 04:43 PM
Why do you sign your y dna as J l210 when we’ve seen your strs and terminal snps?

I haven't received anything further than J-L210 yet (23andMe).

maroco
02-10-2021, 05:08 PM
I haven't received anything further than J-L210 yet (23andMe).

Can you post your 23 and me ancestry report please.
This is mine:
43200

maroco
02-10-2021, 07:04 PM
Anyway I decided to ask an expert in the field he seemed to believe it’s Phoenician in origin as well

maroco
02-19-2021, 09:46 PM
I finally got the person from my sibling branch tested along with his father for G25 these were the results on pre made calculators:
Target: AK20210116_scaled
Distance: 1.0795% / 0.01079542
70.4 East_Europe
6.6 Siberia
6.4 Asia_Minor
5.8 West_and_Central_Europe
4.0 Finland
2.2 Southeast_Europe
2.0 East_Middle_East
1.0 Central_Asia
0.8 Belarusian
0.6 North_Africa
0.2 West_Africa

Target: AK20200909_scaled
Distance: 1.9740% / 0.01973984
71.8 East_Europe
16.6 Southeast_Europe
4.0 Finland
3.8 Siberia
2.8 East_Middle_East
1.0 Asia_Minor

No Jewish picked up, the calculator had Jewish references in it.

alchemist223
02-28-2021, 08:36 PM
Interestingly, a new basal J-L210* from Russia was recently added to the YFull tree (https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-L210/), with the sample being from Moscow.

maroco
02-28-2021, 08:45 PM
Interestingly, a new basal J-L210* from Russia was recently added to the YFull tree (https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-L210/), with the sample being from Moscow.

Thanks I appreciate it

maroco
02-28-2021, 09:00 PM
Okay my friend will contact him tomorrow it’s a little late once we have more info on the sample I’ll let you know

Principe
02-28-2021, 09:23 PM
This basal Russian likely solidifies J-L210 being born in the Caucasus.

maroco
02-28-2021, 09:29 PM
This basal Russian likely solidifies J-L210 being born in the Caucasus.

We had the discussion before and I stated in it a email, looks like it’s a reality

alchemist223
02-28-2021, 10:44 PM
This basal Russian likely solidifies J-L210 being born in the Caucasus.

That was my first thought as well Principe.

J Man
03-02-2021, 02:26 PM
Interestingly, a new basal J-L210* from Russia was recently added to the YFull tree (https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-L210/), with the sample being from Moscow.

Interesting...Likely a non-Jewish ethnic Russian sample?

alchemist223
03-18-2021, 10:24 PM
Interesting...Likely a non-Jewish ethnic Russian sample?

Perhaps.

alchemist223
03-18-2021, 10:26 PM
A new Brazilian sample has appeared at J-Y15245* (https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Y15245/) specifically coming from the state of Ceara in northeastern Brazil. I wonder if he will eventually be placed below Y15245.

Principe
03-19-2021, 03:09 AM
A new Brazilian sample has appeared at J-Y15245* (https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Y15245/) specifically coming from the state of Ceara in northeastern Brazil. I wonder if he will eventually be placed below Y15245.

Yeah we’ll see where he ends up in the end, the next Yfull update should be interesting!

alchemist223
04-03-2021, 08:18 PM
Hmmm... seems that the basal J-L210* Russian sample has disappeared from YFull.

Principe
04-03-2021, 08:38 PM
Hmmm... seems that the basal J-L210* Russian sample has disappeared from YFull.

I know I saw that, maybe its because he’s going to be basal to the CTS7577 branch, so he’s gonna appear once the update is completed.

alchemist223
06-05-2021, 12:33 AM
One of the samples from the new Turkish study is J-L210, and will form a new clade with kit YF01661.

Devanhie
06-18-2021, 02:38 PM
Principe: I follow you down to J-Z482,from there I go to J-Y165096 then terminate at J-Z30386. I test positive for Y15222 as you. Where do you think my line originates? Thank you

Principe
06-18-2021, 02:53 PM
Principe: I follow you down to J-Z482,from there I go to J-Y165096 then terminate at J-Z30386. I test positive for Y15222 as you. Where do you think my line originates? Thank you

Hi Devanhie, I am technically Y15245, one step lower, the honest answer its hard to exactly know, Iron Aged branches are generally tough to designate an origin because the Iron Age was an era of high mobility. That's why ancient dna fills in the guesses, because modern doesn't equal origin.

At your level there is a Moroccan and Russian, https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Y15222/ I would suggest uploading your BAM to Yfull and see if you form a clade with either of them.

And its my pleasure

Devanhie
06-18-2021, 07:22 PM
Thanks!

alchemist223
06-18-2021, 07:25 PM
Thanks!

Just curious, what are the origins of your paternal family?

Devanhie
06-19-2021, 05:04 PM
My Y family origin is Germany/Switzerland. Records back to the early 1400's

alchemist223
07-13-2021, 04:08 PM
There is a new Greek sample under J-Y15223*. I wonder how this fits in to the subclade's prevalence in the Ashkenazi Jewish community.

Principe
07-13-2021, 05:22 PM
There is a new Greek sample under J-Y15223*. I wonder how this fits in to the subclade's prevalence in the Ashkenazi Jewish community.

He is a Sephardic Jew with roots in Thessaloniki

alchemist223
07-13-2021, 05:48 PM
He is a Sephardic Jew with roots in Thessaloniki

Thanks for the info!

Alexei
11-04-2021, 07:51 AM
A new member of the yfull.com project has appeared in the position of J-Z482. it is indicated that he is from China, Hebei city. Does anyone know something about this project contributor?

Principe
11-05-2021, 12:59 PM
A new member of the yfull.com project has appeared in the position of J-Z482. it is indicated that he is from China, Hebei city. Does anyone know something about this project contributor?

He is a native Manchu speaker, but believes he has direct paternal Turkic ancestry.

Alexei
11-06-2021, 07:58 PM
as far as I know ... He is Manchu, from Hebei Province.
We speculate his ancestor is the Xiongnu and Turkic. very interesting. What do you think about this?

Principe
11-06-2021, 08:05 PM
as far as I know ... He is Manchu, from Hebei Province.
We speculate his ancestor is the Xiongnu and Turkic. very interesting. What do you think about this?

This is what he told our fellow clademate. Well since he is basal it is hard to know if indeed the ancestor was Turkic, we can imagine maybe something Scythian/Saka related but we have yet to find any L210 in them. Majority of J2 in Chinese samples seem either to be Central Asian, Caucasian or Mesopotamian related. It has to be one of those 3 options.

Alexei
11-07-2021, 08:50 PM
Yes I agree. Perhaps they are Sarmatians or Scythians. I find them in my autosomal tests.

Gentica277282
02-11-2022, 11:13 AM
48402

New Russian sample added

Gentica277282
02-18-2022, 12:11 PM
48474

Russian moves down stream. Italian separates from Brazilian and principe, also American samples goes to J-L210

J Man
03-03-2022, 03:43 PM
I have seen some people describing J-Y81401 as being a Jewish clade and some people describing it as being made up of non-Jews. Is there any consensus about this now?

Risiko
03-03-2022, 04:10 PM
I have seen some people describing J-Y81401 as being a Jewish clade and some people describing it as being made up of non-Jews. Is there any consensus about this now?

Jewish is a religion. If a Jewish has this haplogroup is Jew. But if it's a non-jewish who has this haplogroup he's not jew, just ethnically jewishness

hartaisarlag
03-03-2022, 04:16 PM
Jewish is a religion. If a Jewish has this haplogroup is Jew. But if it's a non-jewish who has this haplogroup he's not jew, just ethnically jewishness

You have a lot to learn.

Risiko
03-03-2022, 04:18 PM
You have a lot to learn.

no, it's truth

hartaisarlag
03-03-2022, 04:20 PM
no, it's truth

Have you ever read any of the papers or threads here about the very specific genetic profile of Ashkenazi Jews?

Or is it just a coincidence that all the Eastern Europeans who are J1 just happened to be the ones who converted to Judaism?

Gentica277282
03-03-2022, 04:21 PM
Jewish is a religion. If a Jewish has this haplogroup is Jew. But if it's a non-jewish who has this haplogroup he's not jew, just ethnically jewishness

What are you talking about, this haplogroups origin is not Jewish. Can you clarify what you mean

hartaisarlag
03-03-2022, 04:34 PM
What are you talking about, this haplogroups origin is not Jewish. Can you clarify what you mean

All of this haplogroup's branches going back 1,500 years are Jewish—both Ashkenazi and Sephardi. So it was present in the Ashkenazi and Sephardi Jewish gene pools upon their emergence in the early middle ages. It doesn't need to be of Israelite/Judean origin for us to be able to call it "Jewish"—everyone understands that Jewish Diaspora populations are of mixed origin. That doesn't make them "not Jewish".

Gentica277282
03-03-2022, 04:39 PM
All of this haplogroup's branches going back 1,500 years are Jewish—both Ashkenazi and Sephardi. So it was present in the Ashkenazi and Sephardi Jewish gene pools upon their emergence in the early middle ages. It doesn't need to be of Israelite/Judean origin for us to be able to call it "Jewish"—everyone understands that Jewish Diaspora populations are of mixed origin. That doesn't make them "not Jewish".

Read what I said again and stop responding with emotional responses I don’t care if they are Hindus, the origin of the actual haplogroup is not Jewish. You can’t paint half a picture and decide to only go so far back, the actual origin of the haplogroup is not judean in origin.

Risiko
03-03-2022, 04:42 PM
Have you ever read any of the papers or threads here about the very specific genetic profile of Ashkenazi Jews?

Or is it just a coincidence that all the Eastern Europeans who are J1 just happened to be the ones who converted to Judaism?

I'm newbie here. But I have searched by myself.

They don't converted, if they were, they would have r1a. They juste migrated there and that's all.



What are you talking about, this haplogroups origin is not Jewish. Can you clarify what you mean

In origin it wasn't, but you know what happens after.

I say that jewish is just a religion. Some people can have it and some not. If some people are jewish and have this haplogroup they are jewish. But if other people have it, it mostly probably that they have some jewishness in them ethnically. Maybe it have been diluted or not.

hartaisarlag
03-03-2022, 04:43 PM
Read what I said again and stop responding with emotional responses I don’t care if they are Hindus, the origin of the actual haplogroup is not Jewish. You can’t paint half a picture and decide to only go so far back, the actual origin of the haplogroup is not judean in origin.

Who looks emotional here? LOL. I don't personally think this lineage is Judean in origin. But if a downstream branch of it shows up in say, a gentile Pole or Ukrainian, its proximate origin is Jewish; J-Y15234 was present in the founding Rhineland Jewish population of the early Middle Ages. It has earlier links to multiple Sephardic branches. That is literally all I mean by Jewish.

vasil
03-03-2022, 04:49 PM
J-Y15223 is clearly a Jewish branch with a recent founder effect I dont see how anyone can dispute that. On the other hand upstream of it there are zero Jewish people and is showing some sort of Southern European distribution so it could have originated in Southern Europe and could represent a local converting to Judaism say someone from Italy that was part of the East Med population living there.

Risiko
03-03-2022, 05:01 PM
J-Y15223 is clearly a Jewish branch with a recent founder effect I dont see how anyone can dispute that. On the other hand upstream of it there are zero Jewish people and is showing some sort of Southern European distribution so it could have originated in Southern Europe and could represent a local converting to Judaism say someone from Italy that was part of the East Med population living there.

I don't believe in conversion, conversion It's when you have blond people with R1b or R1a being jewish. I think J1 people migrated to Europe, from some part in Middle East (Not Jerusalem), but no far from there. In some part, between Russia, Persia or Turkey.
People with J1, in eastern europe were mostly migrants refugees.
I have my own theory about that.
I think that most jewish in Europe were first, and then europeans come so long after.

hartaisarlag
03-03-2022, 05:04 PM
We don’t need your amateurish opinion on things you don’t understand and a haplogroup you are not part of

I'm not even sure what *your* amateurish opinion is! No one here, posting today, is arguing for a Judean origin. Is your claim that J-Y15223 randomly has a lot of Jews, but its MRCA wasn't a self-identified Jew in a Jewish community?

hartaisarlag
03-03-2022, 05:06 PM
90-95% of R1a in Ashkenazi Jews is of Near Eastern origin (R-Y2619). A substantial minority of Ashkenazi R1b is also of Near Eastern origin (different branches under R-Z2103 and R-V88).

Risiko
03-03-2022, 05:07 PM
90-95% of R1a in Ashkenazi Jews is of Near Eastern origin (R-Y2619). A substantial minority of Ashkenazi R1b is also of Near Eastern origin (different branches under R-Z2103 and R-V88).

Yeah both europeans and jews are migrants. Maybe just Scandinavians with I haplogroup are native to Europe.

vasil
03-03-2022, 05:10 PM
We don’t need your amateurish opinion on things you don’t understand and a haplogroup you are not part of

Have you gone mad??? Do you think people can research and discuss only their own haplgroups, what about people they are related to, what about other people from their region or their ethnicity?

Kelmendasi
03-03-2022, 05:22 PM
I don't believe in conversion, conversion It's when you have blond people with R1b or R1a being jewish. I think J1 people migrated to Europe, from some part in Middle East (Not Jerusalem), but no far from there. In some part, between Russia, Persia or Turkey.
People with J1, in eastern europe were mostly migrants refugees.
I have my own theory about that.
I think that most jewish in Europe were first, and then europeans come so long after.
The spread of J1 lineages into Europe was/is a complex process that took place through numerous waves throughout history. There are clusters of J1 in Europe that have no connection to the Middle East but rather arrived via the Caucasus or even Pontic-Caspian steppe, others (seems like the bulk) however did arrive from the Middle East and some specifically from around Jerusalem and historical Judea.

As for the Jews being in Europe prior to the Europeans, I am not sure if I follow what you mean but that is completely incorrect.

vasil
03-03-2022, 05:25 PM
Keep your personal wars and conspiracy theories of this thread please. This thread was for updates and sensible discussions about new samples added. If you want to do said things please start a thread of your own and fight amongst each other thanks

Whats a conspiracy? Jewish branches are the easiest ones to spot with their founder effects let alone J-Y15223 which has a basal Sephardim to the Ashkenazim which proves that thats an early European Jewish branch.

hartaisarlag
03-03-2022, 05:30 PM
Whats a conspiracy? Jewish branches are the easiest ones to spot with their founder effects let alone J-Y15223 which has a basal Sephardim to the Ashkenazim which proves that thats an early European Jewish branch.

Two separate basal Sephardi branches (both on FTDNA, but only one on YFull), actually!

And yes, it's remarkable how all the large Ashkenazi founding branches seem to trace back to single ancestors who lived between 400 and 1000 CE. This pattern/designation has nothing to do with questions about ultimate, pre-Ashkenazic origins. About half of them, including J-Y15234, are already known to be immediately linked to other non-Ashkenazi Western Jewish communities at the basal/upstream level.

Kelmendasi
03-03-2022, 05:59 PM
I say jews were first in Europe, Yamnaya people, the ancestors of europeans come so long after, maybe from central Asia.

48625
So, according to you, the Neolithic cultures of Europe were Jewish despite the fact that Judaism itself has its roots in the Bronze Age and was restricted to a fairly homogenous and cohesive group from the southern Levant? This is the stuff of fantasy.

Principe
03-03-2022, 06:21 PM
How about this conversation is moved from here, this thread is about the origins of L210.

In general consensus, clades with widespread distribution and ambiguity need ancient dna to solve ultimate origins

In terms of Y15222's ultimate origin at the moment it is unknown, the only safe assumption we can have is that it expanded during the Iron Age to which culture or tribe it belonged to is unknown at the moment, and modern dna is not indicative enough yet.

Gentica277282
03-03-2022, 06:32 PM
I have seen some people describing J-Y81401 as being a Jewish clade and some people describing it as being made up of non-Jews. Is there any consensus about this now?

I’ll message them and find out but I did message a polish sample down stream who said he was not of jewish origin. The polish sample said his mothers side was Jewish and his father was polish

The Ukrainians seem to be of Jewish origin after speaking to principe

Gentica277282
03-03-2022, 06:59 PM
How about this conversation is moved from here, this thread is about the origins of L210.

In general consensus, clades with widespread distribution and ambiguity need ancient dna to solve ultimate origins

In terms of Y15222's ultimate origin at the moment it is unknown, the only safe assumption we can have is that it expanded during the Iron Age to which culture or tribe it belonged to is unknown at the moment, and modern dna is not indicative enough yet.

There is still missing gaps within my ancestry due to a lack of ancient samples from North Africa and the southern levant

Gentica277282
03-12-2022, 10:34 PM
48754

A direct match for Alexi on yfull. He told him he will upload to yfull inchallah, it seems to be Russians on one side upstream and me a Moroccan on the other.

J Man
03-12-2022, 10:40 PM
48754

A direct match for Alexi on yfull. He told him he will upload to yfull inchallah, it seems to be Russians on one side upstream and me a Moroccan on the other.

Interesting stuff...Which part of Russia does Alexi come from?

Flub
03-13-2022, 12:59 AM
48754

A direct match for Alexi on yfull. He told him he will upload to yfull inchallah, it seems to be Russians on one side upstream and me a Moroccan on the other.

Just J-M172 on Big Y700? Weird.

Gentica277282
03-17-2022, 12:39 PM
Just J-M172 on Big Y700? Weird.

I don’t know how ftdna works. It just shows if you are a direct match not the actual
Final subclade

Gentica277282
03-30-2022, 02:34 PM
Deleted

ChrisR
04-21-2022, 08:08 PM
Gentica277282 has exceeded their stored private messages quota and cannot accept further messages until they clear some space.
I can not write you a PM.

What do you know about j-l210
Since J2a-L210 is ca. 7200 years old, it is vague to speak about such old haplogroups. I prefer to focus on Bronze Age and Iron Age era where enough modern and possibly also ancient DNA exists.

Flub
04-23-2022, 05:28 AM
I think those in Y15222 and below are Jewish.

Gentica277282
04-23-2022, 09:11 AM
I think those in Y15222 and below are Jewish.

We ain’t Jewish, the tmrca doesn’t match with what you are saying. The sibling clade below me, all the way up to the Russian in Y165124 are not Jewish.

Flub
04-23-2022, 04:07 PM
We ain’t Jewish, the tmrca doesn’t match with what you are saying. The sibling clade below me, all the way up to the Russian in Y165124 are not Jewish.

What does TMRCA have to do with it? It's probably more likely since the ethnogenesis this group still existed in Jewish populations. Which is ~4000 years ago kinda coincidental looking at Y15222 ("formed 4100 ybp"). I suspect the lines below are the ones who've broken off quite some time ago in the diaspora.

Gentica277282
04-23-2022, 04:11 PM
What does TMRCA have to do with it? It's probably more likely since the ethnogenesis this group still existed in Jewish populations. Which is ~4000 years ago kinda coincidental looking at Y15222 ("formed 4100 ybp"). I suspect the lines below are the ones who've broken off quite some time ago in the diaspora.

Are you not listening I’m telling you the origin of y15222 Jewish. It’s before the foundation of Judaism, you have no backing for your thesis you are using people with young tmrca ages and trying to use it as the foundation for your thesis. Also saying the tmrca is doesn’t matter is a silly comment to make

The tmrca is 2600 years ago which lines up with Phoenician settlements in North Africa, also the romans or the ottomans. We also have a Syrian who lies at j l210

Anything upstream doesn’t support your thesis

Flub
04-26-2022, 06:25 PM
Are you not listening I’m telling you the origin of y15222 Jewish. It’s before the foundation of Judaism, you have no backing for your thesis you are using people with young tmrca ages and trying to use it as the foundation for your thesis. Also saying the tmrca is doesn’t matter is a silly comment to make

The tmrca is 2600 years ago which lines up with Phoenician settlements in North Africa, also the romans or the ottomans. We also have a Syrian who lies at j l210

Anything upstream doesn’t support your thesis

The foundation of Judaism was 4000 years ago so was Y15222 anything below either Converso or Jewish. Enough said.
You'd be right about the TMRCA being 2600 yet you're wrong about the settlements consisting of only Roman, Phoenician or Ottomans. I ask you if you could show me a "Roman", "Phoenician" or even an "Ottoman" specific version of this group. Not to mention Romans or Ottomans haven't even existed at this time. It's more likely Jewish than anything else you've brought up due to the fact most of it's descendants are Jewish since the period of the foundation.

Gentica277282
04-26-2022, 06:36 PM
The foundation of Judaism was 4000 years ago so was Y15222 anything below either Converso or Jewish. Enough said.
You'd be right about the TMRCA being 2600 yet you're wrong about the settlements consisting of only Roman, Phoenician or Ottomans. I ask you if you could show me a "Roman", "Phoenician" or even an "Ottoman" specific version of this group. Not to mention Romans or Ottomans haven't even existed at this time. It's more likely Jewish than anything else you've brought up due to the fact most of it's descendants are Jewish since the foundation.

You are talking nonsense without backing it up with no facts. First of all if you took the time to look upstream we have two Italians, a Turk and also a Chinese sample who was removed because he didn’t pay. All you are doing is saying is it’s Jewish with no factual evidence to back your claims

You can’t use way downstream with young ages to determine the origin of y15222 that’s bizarre

And jy15222 was founded 4100 years ago not 4000 years ago

Flub
04-26-2022, 06:47 PM
You are talking nonsense without backing it up with no facts. First of all if you took the time to look upstream we have two Italians, a Turk and also a Chinese sample who was removed because he didn’t pay. All you are doing is saying is it’s Jewish with no factual evidence to back your claims

You can’t use way downstream with young ages to determine the origin of y15222 that’s bizarre

The foundation of Judaism was ~4000 years ago (which correlates with Y15222 origin). That's not a fact to you? You're in-denial. Where are the "facts" you have brought up? You've only claimed Ottoman, Phoenician, or Roman origin. But, yet none of these examples you've shown.

Gentica277282
04-26-2022, 06:52 PM
Like I said the line was founded 4100 years ago, just because something correlates doesn’t make it evidence. Like I said upstream you have an ancient Turkish sample, a Chinese sample above me who said he had central Asian roots. Further more we have a Lebanese and Yemeni who both lie at j l210 and haven’t done a big y. As for the Phoenicians 2600 years ago is around the time they arrived in North Africa

How many lines are founded 4000 years ago does that make them all Jewish what a logic you have

Flub
04-26-2022, 07:02 PM
Like I said the line was founded 4100 years ago, just because something correlates doesn’t make it evidence. Like I said upstream you have an ancient Turkish sample, a Chinese sample above me who said he had central Asian roots. Further more we have a Lebanese and Yemeni who both lie at j l210 and haven’t done a big y. As for the Phoenicians 2600 years ago is around the time they arrived in North Africa

How many lines are founded 4000 years ago does that make them all Jewish what a logic you have

Firstly, we are not arguing for L210 here. Secondly, What you said isn't evidence for a Phoenician origin, if it were they would have formed their own cluster across their colonies.

Gentica277282
04-26-2022, 07:07 PM
Firstly, we are not arguing for L210 here. Secondly, What you said isn't evidence for a Phoenician origin, if it were they would have formed their own cluster across their colonies.

You silly goose you are trying to use down stream to argue y15222. Who’s talking about l210 I said upstream at j y43263
You’ll see the Turk not at j-l210. Besides I’m just using your logic, also not everyone is tested and uploaded to yfull. On top of that how many ancient Phoenician samples do we have? Not many

Flub
04-26-2022, 08:23 PM
You silly goose you are trying to use down stream to argue y15222. Who’s talking about l210 I said upstream at j y43263
You’ll see the Turk not at j-l210. Besides I’m just using your logic, also not everyone is tested and uploaded to yfull. On top of that how many ancient Phoenician samples do we have? Not many

Well, I did just say I think Y15222 is Jewish. What did you think I was arguing for?

alchemist223
04-30-2022, 04:57 PM
There have been some interesting recent updates to J-L210 on YFull. It's TMRCA has increased from 4900 ybp to 7200 ybp, with 41 total SNPs, due to the inclusion of a new clade, J-Y319216, which consists of samples from the Central Bohemian Region of the Czech Republic as well as Pennsylvania in the United States. The rest of J-L210 descends from the other clade J-Y3034.

I have been surprised to see how prevalent J-L210 is in Eastern Europe, not among Ashkenazi Jews but among other populations as well.

J Man
05-01-2022, 06:44 PM
There have been some interesting recent updates to J-L210 on YFull. It's TMRCA has increased from 4900 ybp to 7200 ybp, with 41 total SNPs, due to the inclusion of a new clade, J-Y319216, which consists of samples from the Central Bohemian Region of the Czech Republic as well as Pennsylvania in the United States. The rest of J-L210 descends from the other clade J-Y3034.

I have been surprised to see how prevalent J-L210 is in Eastern Europe, not among Ashkenazi Jews but among other populations as well.

Wow that is interesting to see three Czech samples from Central Bohemia pop up! I am definitely interested in the presence of J2a-L210 among non-Jewish Eastern Europeans.

Gentica277282
05-01-2022, 06:49 PM
49417

We had a Chinese sample above us who didn’t pay so he was removed. He claimed to have central Asian roots. The branch seems to connect from J-FGC68774.

Hopefully in the future more people do their big y and add to yfull to get a clearer picture