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maroco
10-13-2019, 11:52 PM
Would appreciate some help with this haplogroup.

Principe
10-14-2019, 12:00 AM
I belong to L210, its very common amongst Ashkenazi Jews, small amounts in Sephardic Jews. In Europe its most common in Italians and Spaniards. There are others in Europe, in the Middle East its mostly found in Turks, the rest in smaller proportions would include Iranian Armenian royalty, Lebanese, Syrians, Kurds, in Yemen and Egypt of course it depends on the placement of the branch.

L210 dates to roughly 5200 ybp, originating somewhere in the Middle East, judging from the oldest samples somewhere around the Turkey-Syria border.

maroco
10-14-2019, 12:11 AM
Iím of Moroccan descent, placement of the branch?. I can post a screen shot of my Morley dna prediction if you like

Principe
10-14-2019, 12:13 AM
I’m of Moroccan descent, placement of the branch?. I can post a screen shot of my Morley dna prediction if you like

You would need to test further on a site like ftdna. Its cool by the way your the first Moroccan L210!

maroco
10-14-2019, 12:21 AM
thatís why I had to branch out to other forums nobody in my group had this haplogroup, thankfully I found you. Just another question, whatís the difference between isogg tree and experimental tree on Morley dna when doing the prediction. Here is the link to the prediction https://imgur.com/rqc7wG4

Principe
10-14-2019, 12:24 AM
that’s why I had to branch out to other forums nobody in my group had this haplogroup, thankfully I found you. Just another question, what’s the difference between isogg tree and experimental tree on Morley dna when doing the prediction. Here is the link to the prediction https://imgur.com/rqc7wG4

From the image its looks like your also Z489, you have 2 positives on the L210 branch. I don’t know but with Morley its calling snps for a positive.

maroco
10-14-2019, 12:33 AM
What would that mean, my Y line will be the same as yours?

Principe
10-14-2019, 12:38 AM
What would that mean being z489, that was on a experimental tree. Sorry I’m not great with these things

No worries, ask away! It would mean you belong to a branch under L210, well you have the positive for L227 which is usually indicative of Z489, to see if you belong to further branches you would need to upload your data to ftdna and order a Y test either snp or Y12-Y37.

J Man
10-14-2019, 12:39 AM
What would that mean, my Y line will be the same as yours?

Are you Berber?

maroco
10-14-2019, 12:46 AM
Yes, I am

maroco
10-14-2019, 12:47 AM
Thanks, youíve being a great help

J Man
10-14-2019, 12:49 AM
Yes, I am

Nice...Do you belong to a particular tribe?

maroco
10-14-2019, 12:51 AM
Yes, Rif.

maroco
10-14-2019, 12:55 AM
I think Iíve got an idea of where it came from, but there is many possibilities. We were invaded by the ottomans. I canít think of anyone else, there was Phoenicians in Morocco as well but I donít believe itís from them. I was quiet shocked I was the only one from my background to score it.

Principe
10-14-2019, 12:59 AM
Yes, Rif.

A very good friend of mine is Berber, he’s from Ouarzazate, well a little village just outside of it! Do you know this place?

Principe
10-14-2019, 01:05 AM
I think I’ve got an idea of where it came from, but there is many possibilities. We were invaded by the ottomans. I can’t think of anyone else, there was Phoenicians in Morocco as well but I don’t believe it’s from them. I was quiet shocked I was the only one from my background to score it.

It all depends on where your paternal ancestry comes from in Morocco, if your paternal side came from a city like Marrakesh, Tangiers, Fez or Casablanca the odds would be higher for an Ottoman explanation. If you come from a more remote village than the Phoenician explanation would make much more sense because your paternal line had time to move.

maroco
10-14-2019, 01:05 AM
Yes, itís beautiful, Iíve never being before. Iíve only ever stayed in Tangier and tetouan. I plan on visiting more places when I go back for my holidays, but most of my family is located in Tangier

maroco
10-14-2019, 01:06 AM
My uncle said we are from Taourirt

maroco
10-14-2019, 01:07 AM
DescriptionTaourirt is a town in Taourirt Province in the northern part of Morocco. Situated in the Oriental region about 100 km west to the city of Oujda. Iíve never being to be honest it looks small though on the map

maroco
10-14-2019, 01:13 AM
They did move from taourirt down south

Principe
10-14-2019, 01:16 AM
My uncle said we are from Taourirt

The area North had a heavy Phoenician presence and later Carthaginian one, I think this would be the most likely scenario of your direct paternal line, I would say it with 95% confidence!

maroco
10-14-2019, 01:21 AM
Thanks, youíve being a great help. Iíll test with FTdna and will let you know the results once I have them

maroco
10-14-2019, 08:39 PM
Also I donít know if this will be useful or not, but my family name is Ancient Greek in origin

alchemist223
10-16-2020, 03:59 PM
This could very well be the potential Y-DNA of my maternal family, who is from Calabria, Italy. Looking forward to learning more!

Devadatta
10-19-2020, 12:11 PM
I see a lot of Eastern and Central European flags on https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-L210/, do you think the J-L210 branches in Russia, Ukraine, Belarus, Lithuania, Poland and Germany are of Jewish origin (at least for the paternal haplogroup)? mine could hypothetically be J-Y81401, as it's found on those two people from my paternal ancestry's region (now called Ivano-Frankivsk). could it gotten to Hutsuls/Rusyns from Jews or could it be a regional development from another source (Neolithic, Steppe etc).

SUPREEEEEME
10-19-2020, 01:44 PM
I see a lot of Eastern and Central European flags on https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-L210/, do you think the J-L210 branches in Russia, Ukraine, Belarus, Lithuania, Poland and Germany are of Jewish origin (at least for the paternal haplogroup)? mine could hypothetically be J-Y81401, as it's found on those two people from my paternal ancestry's region (now called Ivano-Frankivsk). could it gotten to Hutsuls/Rusyns from Jews or could it be a regional development from another source (Neolithic, Steppe etc).

To my understanding, all the branches under J-Y15223 are Jewish. But I'm not as knowledgeable about this clade as my own.

Principe
10-19-2020, 01:52 PM
I see a lot of Eastern and Central European flags on https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-L210/, do you think the J-L210 branches in Russia, Ukraine, Belarus, Lithuania, Poland and Germany are of Jewish origin (at least for the paternal haplogroup)? mine could hypothetically be J-Y81401, as it's found on those two people from my paternal ancestry's region (now called Ivano-Frankivsk). could it gotten to Hutsuls/Rusyns from Jews or could it be a regional development from another source (Neolithic, Steppe etc).

Devadatta, yes all of the flags you see under J-Y15223 are Ashkenazi. There does seem to ethnic Ukrainians and Russians under J-L210, which company have you tested with?

Devadatta
10-19-2020, 02:22 PM
Devadatta, yes all of the flags you see under J-Y15223 are Ashkenazi. There does seem to ethnic Ukrainians and Russians under J-L210, which company have you tested with?

tested with 23andme back in 2011. I don't know my subclade, I only know it is something under J-L210 because I've got negative calls for the other two sub-branches of J-M67. paternal side is Ukrainian (Carpathian Rusnak / Hutsul, how you want to call it) with recent Polish and possibly German ancestry (our village was populated by Orthodox Ukrainians and Lutheran Germans until WW1, but as only few Germans stayed, now it is exclusively Ukrainian, ethnically). I myself am mixed, though, as mom is West Moldovan (mt DNA H14b)

Principe
10-19-2020, 02:40 PM
tested with 23andme back in 2011. I don't know my subclade, I only know it is something under J-L210 because I've got negative calls for the other two sub-branches of J-M67. paternal side is Ukrainian (Carpathian Rusnak / Hutsul, how you want to call it) with recent Polish and possibly German ancestry (our village was populated by Orthodox Ukrainians and Lutheran Germans until WW1, but as only few Germans stayed, now it is exclusively Ukrainian, ethnically). I myself am mixed, though, as mom is West Moldovan (mt DNA H14b)

Thanks for the response, by other two branches you mean Z7671 and Z500? There is 3 sub branches under Z467, have you checked S11842? There is one SK1336 Ukrainian, there probably is some under S21160/Z6271, but odds are L210, there is a bit of presence in the area, I suggest transferring to ftdna and order a Y37 test.

alchemist223
10-19-2020, 02:53 PM
Interestingly, this is one of the haplogroups that pops up in some European gentiles as well as Ashkenazi Jews, mostly from different branches. Some carriers maybe descendants of Jewish converts to Christianity, however. I suspect the origins of this haplogroup are in the Caucasus, with it being found in the Chalcolithic/Early Bronze Age site of Arslantepe in Turkey.

maroco
10-19-2020, 10:10 PM
Interestingly, this is one of the haplogroups that pops up in some European gentiles as well as Ashkenazi Jews, mostly from different branches. Some carriers maybe descendants of Jewish converts to Christianity, however. I suspect the origins of this haplogroup are in the Caucasus, with it being found in the Chalcolithic/Early Bronze Age site of Arslantepe in Turkey.
I highly doubt it comes from the Caucasus considering I’m Moroccan that’s highly unlikely

alchemist223
10-19-2020, 10:15 PM
I highly doubt it comes from the Caucasus considering I’m Moroccan that’s highly unlikely

It was found in a Chalcolithic/EBA site, Arslantepe, in Turkey circa 3300 BC (ART023), and other clades of J2a-M67 have been found among the Hurrians and in the Kura-Araxes culture (both of which have ties to the Caucasus). I think that it is at least a plausible theory, if not 100% accurate. We would need to see more North African samples of J-L210 for me to conclude that it did not come from the Caucasus or perhaps Mesopotamia/Iran.

maroco
10-19-2020, 10:31 PM
It was found in a Chalcolithic/EBA site, Arslantepe, in Turkey circa 3300 BC (ART023), and other clades of J2a-M67 have been found among the Hurrians and in the Kura-Araxes culture (both of which have ties to the Caucasus). I think that it is at least a plausible theory, if not 100% accurate. We would need to see more North African samples of J-L210 for me to conclude that it did not come from the Caucasus or perhaps Mesopotamia/Iran.

It makes more sense for it to be moorish or Carthaginian considering my tmrca and the history of my region both those options are not plausible. If I had a young tmrca and I wasn’t basal then I would be fully on board with your theory

maroco
10-19-2020, 11:14 PM
Deleted

StillWater
10-19-2020, 11:23 PM
It was found in a Chalcolithic/EBA site, Arslantepe, in Turkey circa 3300 BC (ART023), and other clades of J2a-M67 have been found among the Hurrians and in the Kura-Araxes culture (both of which have ties to the Caucasus). I think that it is at least a plausible theory, if not 100% accurate. We would need to see more North African samples of J-L210 for me to conclude that it did not come from the Caucasus or perhaps Mesopotamia/Iran.

There is no conflict with a Carthaginian carrying a Hurrian lineage.

alchemist223
10-20-2020, 12:03 AM
There is no conflict with a Carthaginian carrying a Hurrian lineage.

Good point, this clade could have come from Phoenicians as well in North Africa.

J Man
10-20-2020, 01:21 AM
It was found in a Chalcolithic/EBA site, Arslantepe, in Turkey circa 3300 BC (ART023), and other clades of J2a-M67 have been found among the Hurrians and in the Kura-Araxes culture (both of which have ties to the Caucasus). I think that it is at least a plausible theory, if not 100% accurate. We would need to see more North African samples of J-L210 for me to conclude that it did not come from the Caucasus or perhaps Mesopotamia/Iran.

I don't think that there are any ancient Kura-Araxes J2a samples yet. None have shown up so far.

alchemist223
10-20-2020, 12:55 PM
I don't think that there are any ancient Kura-Araxes J2a samples yet. None have shown up so far.

Thanks for notifying me. Probably just originated somewhere in the Caucasus then.

Principe
10-20-2020, 01:12 PM
I don't think that there are any ancient Kura-Araxes J2a samples yet. None have shown up so far.

We still only have a small sample size, surely J2 existed amongst Kura Araxes, I think majority will be J2.

J Man
10-20-2020, 02:11 PM
We still only have a small sample size, surely J2 existed amongst Kura Araxes, I think majority will be J2.

That is certainly possible.

Principe
10-20-2020, 02:12 PM
That is certainly possible.

I am 100% certain J2 existed amongst Kura Araxes, it wouldn’t make sense if there wasn’t.

maroco
10-20-2020, 05:41 PM
I am 100% certain J2 existed amongst Kura Araxes, it wouldn’t make sense if there wasn’t.
Wasn’t there a Lebanese guy under Our branch of I recall

Principe
10-20-2020, 06:29 PM
Wasn’t there a Lebanese guy under Our branch of I recall

There is a Lebanese under Z447, there is a Syrian and Egyptian under L210.

maroco
10-23-2020, 05:46 PM
40575
My str matches two Ukrainians and a Russian

maroco
11-09-2020, 02:17 PM
Does anyone have any information on the sample at j-cts2282 please, it just says unknown.
https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-CTS2282/

Principe
11-09-2020, 02:59 PM
Does anyone have any information on the sample at j-cts2282 please, it just says unknown.
https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-CTS2282/

Yeah he is American from what I remember.

maroco
11-23-2020, 09:19 AM
With the new nebula data that I’ve uploaded I seem to have gotten one close match in my str matches which I had none in my Dante labs data.
41347
Found it interesting thought I would share. I’m still waiting for manual verification

maroco
01-14-2021, 08:57 PM
I had a match on 23 and me who says his fathers family is from Palermo
4256842569

maroco
02-10-2021, 06:57 AM
My friend found some news:

“ We are close to the truth: ours. FTDNA says that 5 persons have been tested at the J-Y15245 level, and are all Western Europeans: Gambarone and people from France, USA, Ireland, Germany. Downstream with two SNPs in common there is Cottini from Italy and a person from the British Isles. In another subclade there is a German. Jews are all downstream with more than 20 SNPs, thus very recent and their ancestor is Euriopean if all the people upstream are European, Upstream and older there is Sam and you at the J-Y15222 level, Upstream there are Italians and pepole from Caucasus and Eastern Europe.”

Not all the persons tested with a Big Y are in the FTDNA project. Anyway they are all Western Europeans:
N147294 Garambone, Aliano, 1770's Matera, Basilicata Italy J-Y15245
12 23 14 10 13-17 11 16 11 13 11 30 17 9-9 11 11 25 15 20 29 12-14-15-16 10 11 19-22 15 13 19 17 36-38 12 9 10 7 15-15 8 11 10 8 11 9 12 17-17 14 10 12 12 16 8 10 21 21 13 12 11 13 10 12 12 11 32 17 8 14 11 25 27 19 11 12 14 11 11 10 11 11 10 11 11 32 12 12 22 14 10 11 23 15 19 11 23 15 12 16 26 12 23 19 10 15 19 9 12 11
B179768 Pedro de Larranaga 1642 Spain J-Y15245
12 23 14 10 13-17 11 16 11 13 11 31 18 9-9 11 11 26 15 20 30 12-14-15-16 11 11 19-22 14 13 18 16 38-39 12 9 10 7 15-15 8 11 10 8 11 10 12 17-17 14 12 12 12 15 8 11 21 21 13 12 11 13 10 12 12 11 31 17 7 14 11 25 27 19 11 12 12 11 11 10 11 11 10 11 11 31 12 12 22 14 10 10 24 15 20 10 22 15 12 15 24 12 23 19 10 16 19 9 12 11
N70674 Cottini, Caravate, Varese, Lombardia Italy J-FT178189
12 24 14 10 13-13 11 16 11 13 11 30 17 8-9 11 11 26 15 20 31 12-15-15-16 10 10 19-22 15 13 19 15 38-40 12 9 174931 Henry Hiestand Germany J-Z30386
12 24 14 10 13-17 11 16 12 12 11 29 17 9-9 11 11 26 15 20 30 12-12-14-14 11 11 19-22 15 13 19 17 37-37 12 9 10 7 15-15 8 12 10 8 11 9 12 17-17 14 11 12 12 14 8 11 21 21 13 12 11 13 10 12 12 11 32 17 8 14 11 25 26 19 11 12 12 11 11 10 11 11 10 10 11 31 12 12 22 14 10 10 25 16 19 10 22 15 12 16 25 12 24 19 10 15 19 9 12 11
N155778 Daniel George Henningfeld, b. 1944 Indiana USA United States J-Z482
12 25 14 10 13-17 11 16 11 13 11 30 17 9-9 11 11 25 15 20 30 12-14-15-16 10 11 19-22 15 13 19 17 34-40 12 9 10 7 15-15 8 11 10 8 11 9 12 17-17 14 11 12 12 16 8 11 22 21 13 12 11 13 10 12 12 11 31 17 8 14 11 25 27 19 11 12 12 11 11 10 11 11 10 11 11 31 12 12 22 14 10 10 26 15 19 10 22 15 12 16 25 12 23 19 10 14 19 9 12 11

J Man
02-10-2021, 02:10 PM
My friend found some news:

“ We are close to the truth: ours. FTDNA says that 5 persons have been tested at the J-Y15245 level, and are all Western Europeans: Gambarone and people from France, USA, Ireland, Germany. Downstream with two SNPs in common there is Cottini from Italy and a person from the British Isles. In another subclade there is a German. Jews are all downstream with more than 20 SNPs, thus very recent and their ancestor is Euriopean if all the people upstream are European, Upstream and older there is Sam and you at the J-Y15222 level, Upstream there are Italians and pepole from Caucasus and Eastern Europe.”

Not all the persons tested with a Big Y are in the FTDNA project. Anyway they are all Western Europeans:
N147294 Garambone, Aliano, 1770's Matera, Basilicata Italy J-Y15245
12 23 14 10 13-17 11 16 11 13 11 30 17 9-9 11 11 25 15 20 29 12-14-15-16 10 11 19-22 15 13 19 17 36-38 12 9 10 7 15-15 8 11 10 8 11 9 12 17-17 14 10 12 12 16 8 10 21 21 13 12 11 13 10 12 12 11 32 17 8 14 11 25 27 19 11 12 14 11 11 10 11 11 10 11 11 32 12 12 22 14 10 11 23 15 19 11 23 15 12 16 26 12 23 19 10 15 19 9 12 11
B179768 Pedro de Larranaga 1642 Spain J-Y15245
12 23 14 10 13-17 11 16 11 13 11 31 18 9-9 11 11 26 15 20 30 12-14-15-16 11 11 19-22 14 13 18 16 38-39 12 9 10 7 15-15 8 11 10 8 11 10 12 17-17 14 12 12 12 15 8 11 21 21 13 12 11 13 10 12 12 11 31 17 7 14 11 25 27 19 11 12 12 11 11 10 11 11 10 11 11 31 12 12 22 14 10 10 24 15 20 10 22 15 12 15 24 12 23 19 10 16 19 9 12 11
N70674 Cottini, Caravate, Varese, Lombardia Italy J-FT178189
12 24 14 10 13-13 11 16 11 13 11 30 17 8-9 11 11 26 15 20 31 12-15-15-16 10 10 19-22 15 13 19 15 38-40 12 9 174931 Henry Hiestand Germany J-Z30386
12 24 14 10 13-17 11 16 12 12 11 29 17 9-9 11 11 26 15 20 30 12-12-14-14 11 11 19-22 15 13 19 17 37-37 12 9 10 7 15-15 8 12 10 8 11 9 12 17-17 14 11 12 12 14 8 11 21 21 13 12 11 13 10 12 12 11 32 17 8 14 11 25 26 19 11 12 12 11 11 10 11 11 10 10 11 31 12 12 22 14 10 10 25 16 19 10 22 15 12 16 25 12 24 19 10 15 19 9 12 11
N155778 Daniel George Henningfeld, b. 1944 Indiana USA United States J-Z482
12 25 14 10 13-17 11 16 11 13 11 30 17 9-9 11 11 25 15 20 30 12-14-15-16 10 11 19-22 15 13 19 17 34-40 12 9 10 7 15-15 8 11 10 8 11 9 12 17-17 14 11 12 12 16 8 11 22 21 13 12 11 13 10 12 12 11 31 17 8 14 11 25 27 19 11 12 12 11 11 10 11 11 10 11 11 31 12 12 22 14 10 10 26 15 19 10 22 15 12 16 25 12 23 19 10 14 19 9 12 11

So the Jews that are downstream from you are descended from a European convert at some point in the past...That is interesting.

StillWater
02-10-2021, 03:34 PM
My friend found some news:

“ We are close to the truth: ours. FTDNA says that 5 persons have been tested at the J-Y15245 level, and are all Western Europeans: Gambarone and people from France, USA, Ireland, Germany. Downstream with two SNPs in common there is Cottini from Italy and a person from the British Isles. In another subclade there is a German. Jews are all downstream with more than 20 SNPs, thus very recent and their ancestor is Euriopean if all the people upstream are European, Upstream and older there is Sam and you at the J-Y15222 level, Upstream there are Italians and pepole from Caucasus and Eastern Europe.”

Not all the persons tested with a Big Y are in the FTDNA project. Anyway they are all Western Europeans:
N147294 Garambone, Aliano, 1770's Matera, Basilicata Italy J-Y15245
12 23 14 10 13-17 11 16 11 13 11 30 17 9-9 11 11 25 15 20 29 12-14-15-16 10 11 19-22 15 13 19 17 36-38 12 9 10 7 15-15 8 11 10 8 11 9 12 17-17 14 10 12 12 16 8 10 21 21 13 12 11 13 10 12 12 11 32 17 8 14 11 25 27 19 11 12 14 11 11 10 11 11 10 11 11 32 12 12 22 14 10 11 23 15 19 11 23 15 12 16 26 12 23 19 10 15 19 9 12 11
B179768 Pedro de Larranaga 1642 Spain J-Y15245
12 23 14 10 13-17 11 16 11 13 11 31 18 9-9 11 11 26 15 20 30 12-14-15-16 11 11 19-22 14 13 18 16 38-39 12 9 10 7 15-15 8 11 10 8 11 10 12 17-17 14 12 12 12 15 8 11 21 21 13 12 11 13 10 12 12 11 31 17 7 14 11 25 27 19 11 12 12 11 11 10 11 11 10 11 11 31 12 12 22 14 10 10 24 15 20 10 22 15 12 15 24 12 23 19 10 16 19 9 12 11
N70674 Cottini, Caravate, Varese, Lombardia Italy J-FT178189
12 24 14 10 13-13 11 16 11 13 11 30 17 8-9 11 11 26 15 20 31 12-15-15-16 10 10 19-22 15 13 19 15 38-40 12 9 174931 Henry Hiestand Germany J-Z30386
12 24 14 10 13-17 11 16 12 12 11 29 17 9-9 11 11 26 15 20 30 12-12-14-14 11 11 19-22 15 13 19 17 37-37 12 9 10 7 15-15 8 12 10 8 11 9 12 17-17 14 11 12 12 14 8 11 21 21 13 12 11 13 10 12 12 11 32 17 8 14 11 25 26 19 11 12 12 11 11 10 11 11 10 10 11 31 12 12 22 14 10 10 25 16 19 10 22 15 12 16 25 12 24 19 10 15 19 9 12 11
N155778 Daniel George Henningfeld, b. 1944 Indiana USA United States J-Z482
12 25 14 10 13-17 11 16 11 13 11 30 17 9-9 11 11 25 15 20 30 12-14-15-16 10 11 19-22 15 13 19 17 34-40 12 9 10 7 15-15 8 11 10 8 11 9 12 17-17 14 11 12 12 16 8 11 22 21 13 12 11 13 10 12 12 11 31 17 8 14 11 25 27 19 11 12 12 11 11 10 11 11 10 11 11 31 12 12 22 14 10 10 26 15 19 10 22 15 12 16 25 12 23 19 10 14 19 9 12 11

I assume this is from our mutual friend. Hope he is doing well.

Re: Our friend's description of J-Y15245 - there are many clear J2 MENA branches that only have Europeans to date within last 2500 years (You can find examples in J-L70. Others are J-Y17946,J-P279,J-SK1344,J-Y6240,J-Z6271,J-M205 (Levantine adna),J-FGC33311,J-Z515,J-S8320,J-SK1336.). This shouldn't be surprising, as TMRCA =/= migration date and absence of evidence isn't evidence of absence. Regardless, there is a sample from the Abu Hashim study in J-Y15245, so the leading statement that they're all West Europeans (mostly South Europeans, really) is false. There are at least 2 known MENA branches in J-Y15222 aside from yourself. One is a Yemeni; the other is from the Abu Hashim study. Everyone who has been discussing this branch has either learned of them or been informed of them. Odd that they're not mentioned. When one goes up to J-Z482, there is another Jewish clade. It's fair that you aren't aware of it - few people are. It was discovered recently. There is a good chance that some of the L210 Cypriots are in Z482. I assume the Caucasus sample our friend is referring to is the Armenian in Z489*. The Armenians there are from Iran and the at the Z489 level, there are other Middle Easterners (Arabic and Turkish- one of the Arabs at this level might be in Y15222; he already is 1 marker off being in z482). There are also Kurds and Iranians in L210, who I bet are in Z489 and wouldn't be shocked if they're in z482. As you know, Arabs are at the early splits of L210.

maroco
02-10-2021, 03:41 PM
I assume this is from our mutual friend. Hope he is doing well.

Re: Our friend's description of J-Y15245 - there are many clear J2 MENA branches that only have Europeans to date within last 2500 years (You can find examples in J-L70. Others are J-Y17946,J-P279,J-SK1344,J-Y6240,J-Z6271,J-M205 (Levantine adna),J-FGC33311,J-Z515,J-S8320,J-SK1336.). This shouldn't be surprising, as TMRCA =/= migration date and absence of evidence isn't evidence of absence. Regardless, there is a sample from the Abu Hashim study in J-Y15245, so the leading statement that they're all West Europeans (mostly South Europeans, really) is false. There are at least 2 known MENA branches in J-Y15222 aside from yourself. One is a Yemeni; the other is from the Abu Hashim study. Everyone who has been discussing this branch has either learned of them or been informed of them. Odd that they're not mentioned. When one goes up to J-Z482, there is another Jewish clade. It's fair that you aren't aware of it - few people are. It was discovered recently. There is a good chance that some of the L210 Cypriots are in Z482. I assume the Caucasus sample our friend is referring to is the Armenian in Z489*. The Armenians there are from Iran and the at the Z489 level, there are other Middle Easterners (Arabic and Turkish- one of the Arabs at this level might be in Y15222; he already is 1 marker off being in z482). There are also Kurds and Iranians in L210, who I bet are in Z489 and wouldn't be shocked if they're in z482. As you know, Arabs are at the early splits of L210.

I actually compared my strs to the sample in the Abu Hashim study we are not a match. The rest of it seems to be just pure speculation on your part we are talking about J-y15222 and down stream. You are using a lot of might and good chance, this is pure speculation please bring facts

StillWater
02-10-2021, 03:58 PM
I actually compared my strs to the sample in the Abu Hashim study we are not a match. The rest of it seems to be just pure speculation on your part we are talking about J-y15222 and down stream. You are using a lot of might and good chance, this is pure speculation please bring facts

You're off modal for J-Y15222's STRs. You shouldn't expect to match him. Others in J-Y15222 aren't STR matches to one another.

You can't fault me for discussing the upstream of J-Y15222, as what you pasted did that. Ignoring the facts I mentioned for the qualified speculation at the end is intellectually dishonest.

maroco
02-10-2021, 04:08 PM
You're off modal for J-Y15222's STRs. You shouldn't expect to match him. Others in J-Y15222 aren't STR matches to one another.

You can't fault me for discussing the upstream of J-Y15222, as what you pasted did that. Ignoring the facts I mentioned for the qualified speculation at the end is intellectually dishonest.

It’s not intellectually dishonest because none of the people you mentioned are confirmed to
Be j-y15222, what is dishonest is you speculating

Principe
02-10-2021, 04:35 PM
The Abu Hashim participant is 100% going to be J-Y15245, it is not intellectual dishonest, he matches several members of J-Y15245 and J-Y15223 at Y67, Nevgen predicts him to be J-L210 at 100% with a fitness over 1 which means he is without a doubt in this clade. The same situation with the Yemeni who is also 100% str confirmed to be in the clade, if we were talking Y12 or Y25 than it would be correct to question the placement but at over Y37 and Y67 to be 100% predicted its confirmed.

Like Stillwater mentioned J-Y15222 is not unique in the J2 tree, several E (xV13) and J1 clades have similar situations going on.

maroco
02-10-2021, 04:39 PM
You're off modal for J-Y15222's STRs. You shouldn't expect to match him. Others in J-Y15222 aren't STR matches to one another.

You can't fault me for discussing the upstream of J-Y15222, as what you pasted did that. Ignoring the facts I mentioned for the qualified speculation at the end is intellectually dishonest.

Why do you sign your y dna as J l210 when weíve seen your strs and terminal snps?

Principe
02-10-2021, 04:41 PM
Why do you sign your y dna as J l210 when we’ve seen your strs and terminal snps?

Maroco, he is snp confirmed to be L210.

StillWater
02-10-2021, 04:43 PM
Why do you sign your y dna as J l210 when we’ve seen your strs and terminal snps?

I haven't received anything further than J-L210 yet (23andMe).

maroco
02-10-2021, 05:08 PM
I haven't received anything further than J-L210 yet (23andMe).

Can you post your 23 and me ancestry report please.
This is mine:
43200

maroco
02-10-2021, 07:04 PM
Anyway I decided to ask an expert in the field he seemed to believe it’s Phoenician in origin as well

maroco
02-19-2021, 09:46 PM
I finally got the person from my sibling branch tested along with his father for G25 these were the results on pre made calculators:
Target: AK20210116_scaled
Distance: 1.0795% / 0.01079542
70.4 East_Europe
6.6 Siberia
6.4 Asia_Minor
5.8 West_and_Central_Europe
4.0 Finland
2.2 Southeast_Europe
2.0 East_Middle_East
1.0 Central_Asia
0.8 Belarusian
0.6 North_Africa
0.2 West_Africa

Target: AK20200909_scaled
Distance: 1.9740% / 0.01973984
71.8 East_Europe
16.6 Southeast_Europe
4.0 Finland
3.8 Siberia
2.8 East_Middle_East
1.0 Asia_Minor

No Jewish picked up, the calculator had Jewish references in it.

alchemist223
02-28-2021, 08:36 PM
Interestingly, a new basal J-L210* from Russia was recently added to the YFull tree (https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-L210/), with the sample being from Moscow.

maroco
02-28-2021, 08:45 PM
Interestingly, a new basal J-L210* from Russia was recently added to the YFull tree (https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-L210/), with the sample being from Moscow.

Thanks I appreciate it

maroco
02-28-2021, 09:00 PM
Okay my friend will contact him tomorrow it’s a little late once we have more info on the sample I’ll let you know

Principe
02-28-2021, 09:23 PM
This basal Russian likely solidifies J-L210 being born in the Caucasus.

maroco
02-28-2021, 09:29 PM
This basal Russian likely solidifies J-L210 being born in the Caucasus.

We had the discussion before and I stated in it a email, looks like it’s a reality

alchemist223
02-28-2021, 10:44 PM
This basal Russian likely solidifies J-L210 being born in the Caucasus.

That was my first thought as well Principe.

J Man
03-02-2021, 02:26 PM
Interestingly, a new basal J-L210* from Russia was recently added to the YFull tree (https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-L210/), with the sample being from Moscow.

Interesting...Likely a non-Jewish ethnic Russian sample?

alchemist223
03-18-2021, 10:24 PM
Interesting...Likely a non-Jewish ethnic Russian sample?

Perhaps.

alchemist223
03-18-2021, 10:26 PM
A new Brazilian sample has appeared at J-Y15245* (https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Y15245/) specifically coming from the state of Ceara in northeastern Brazil. I wonder if he will eventually be placed below Y15245.

Principe
03-19-2021, 03:09 AM
A new Brazilian sample has appeared at J-Y15245* (https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Y15245/) specifically coming from the state of Ceara in northeastern Brazil. I wonder if he will eventually be placed below Y15245.

Yeah we’ll see where he ends up in the end, the next Yfull update should be interesting!

alchemist223
04-03-2021, 08:18 PM
Hmmm... seems that the basal J-L210* Russian sample has disappeared from YFull.

Principe
04-03-2021, 08:38 PM
Hmmm... seems that the basal J-L210* Russian sample has disappeared from YFull.

I know I saw that, maybe its because he’s going to be basal to the CTS7577 branch, so he’s gonna appear once the update is completed.

alchemist223
06-05-2021, 12:33 AM
One of the samples from the new Turkish study is J-L210, and will form a new clade with kit YF01661.

Devanhie
06-18-2021, 02:38 PM
Principe: I follow you down to J-Z482,from there I go to J-Y165096 then terminate at J-Z30386. I test positive for Y15222 as you. Where do you think my line originates? Thank you

Principe
06-18-2021, 02:53 PM
Principe: I follow you down to J-Z482,from there I go to J-Y165096 then terminate at J-Z30386. I test positive for Y15222 as you. Where do you think my line originates? Thank you

Hi Devanhie, I am technically Y15245, one step lower, the honest answer its hard to exactly know, Iron Aged branches are generally tough to designate an origin because the Iron Age was an era of high mobility. That's why ancient dna fills in the guesses, because modern doesn't equal origin.

At your level there is a Moroccan and Russian, https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Y15222/ I would suggest uploading your BAM to Yfull and see if you form a clade with either of them.

And its my pleasure

Devanhie
06-18-2021, 07:22 PM
Thanks!

alchemist223
06-18-2021, 07:25 PM
Thanks!

Just curious, what are the origins of your paternal family?

Devanhie
06-19-2021, 05:04 PM
My Y family origin is Germany/Switzerland. Records back to the early 1400's