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falconson1
10-30-2019, 03:30 PM
I am not sure if this paper has been discussed here (apologies if it has) - but it took me for a loop after reading it - did R1b really originate among the Kushites from Sub - Saharan Africa and spread to Europe via Crete, the Balkans and North Africa?

Here is the abstract to the Winters, 2018 article found here: http://www.cibtech.org/J-LIFE-SCIENC...e-Africans.pdf.

Y-CHROMOSOME R1 WAS INTRODUCED TO EURASIA BY KUSHITES
*Clyde Winters

ABSTRACT

"The Kushites lived in Africa and Eurasia. Kushites originated in Africa. Researchers have observed that
many of the Caucasus hunter-gatherers (CHG) and early European farmers (EF) populations carried R1a
and R1b clades, and cultivated millet, which was not cultivated in Central Asia and the Middle East until
1000s of years after it was cultivated at Nabta Playa in Africa, and in the Ukraine by CHG and EF
populations . Interestingly, the CHG carried the R1b1, and R1b1a lineages. Some researchers claim that
these clades are “distant relatives” of V88, and that V88 is the result of a back migration from Eurasia to
Central Africa. The archaeological evidence, on the other hand, lacks any corroboration of a back
migration from Eurasia. Instead, the archaeogenetic evidence indicates that Niger-Congo speaking
Africans from North Africa and the Saharo-Sahel, called Kushites in the historical literature early settled
Crete, Iberia and Anatolia, and that these Africans introduced R1b, the Bell Beaker and the agro-pastoral
cultural traditions into Eurasia during the Neolithic."

I try to keep an open mind, but it is impossible to reconcile what is discussed in this paper with "current" thinking - movement of R1b (P312 / S116) east to west via Yamnaya in late Neolithic. Seems if Winter's view is rather controversial if not "heretical" - but what if he is right?

anglesqueville
10-30-2019, 03:41 PM
Clyde Winters is a well-know afrocentrist moron. If you have some time to waste you can explore his production on the basis of https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Clyde_Winters . It's a good thing to keep an open mind, and a very good thing to remember that the ToS forbids pseudo-science.

Megalophias
10-30-2019, 04:19 PM
He isn't right. Winters is completely unreliable - dishonest with sources, blinded by his own theories, and lacking even the smallest understanding of genetics.

CHG did not have R1a or R1b; there are only 2 samples, and they had J1 and J2. A few EEF had R1b, of varieties present in Europe already before their arrival; I don't recall any R1a. No previous researchers have discussed the relationship of imaginary CHG R1b lineages to R1b-V88. R1b-V88 was present in Southeastern Europe before the Neolithic, and is not attested in the limited ancient DNA we have from the Neolithic Near East.

Whether any cultivation was really carried out at Nabta Playa is unknown, but in any case the domestic Sub-Saharan millets, most importantly pearl and finger millet, are completely different species to the Eurasian foxtail and broomcorn millets (probably domesticated in China). Millet grains (of Eurasian not tropical African varieties) have been found in European Neolithic contexts, but when they were directly dated in a 2013 study they turned out to be no earlier than the Bronze Age; as far as I know there is presently no solid evidence for millet cultivation by EEFs.

Bell Beakers were introduced thousands of years after the beginning of the Neolithic; the polity of Kush in Central Sudan is first mentioned shortly before 2000 BC. None of this has any basis whatsoever.

falconson1
10-30-2019, 04:33 PM
Clyde Winters is a well-know afrocentrist moron. If you have some time to waste you can explore his production on the basis of https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Clyde_Winters . It's a good thing to keep an open mind, and a very good thing to remember that the ToS forbids pseudo-science.

Indeed, but sometimes it is difficult to detect pseudo science when the author cites the most up to date references and weaves them into a semi coherent thesis. In my case I will be less open to "off beat" theories once P312 / S116 precursors such as L51 and L151 are found in ancient DNA samples from the supposed "homeland" east of the "Iron Gates". Shame this is not 2007 when I was quite well versed in all the relevant findings. I appreciate the patience of folks as I struggle to make sense of the data emerging from studies in the last 10 years - although clearly it is time to retreat back into obscurity for a couple of months or perhaps years.

BTW, please feel free to delete this thread.