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Cri
11-05-2019, 06:39 AM
Hello, this is my first post. My father is IZ58 and we are from Florence in Tuscany. My eldest known paternal ancestor was born in Florence in 1680.
Any thoughts? Is there anyone else here from Tuscany? Or Italy? Thank you :)

deadly77
11-05-2019, 02:11 PM
Welcome to the Anthrogenica forums. I-Z58 is one of the two largest subclades of the overall I1 haplogroup, and is currently dated to between 4000 and 5100 years ago, so common ancestors on the Y line were quite some time ago and I-Z58 has a relatively wide dispersion geographically. It's likely that your father is also part of a more refined subclade underneath I-Z58, but perhaps the DNA test he took was didn't cover the relevant SNPs to determine that. You can take a look at the subclades below I-Z58 in the YFull tree here and the flags next to sample names can give you an idea about how widespread the geographic distribution encompasses: yfull.com/tree/I-Z58/ - it looks like there are 10 folks listing Italy on the YFull tree that are downstream of I-Z58, some with a more refined location (for example, Modena or Avellino) if you hover the cursor over the Italian flag. There is also the FamilyTreeDNA public haplotree here https://www.familytreedna.com/public/y-dna-haplotree/I;name=I-Z58 and this lists 22 folks who list Italy as their paternal origin and are tested to I-Z58 or downstream of that. There are 4696 confirmed I-Z58 in FTDNA's database, so the 22 Italians comprise 0.88% of that. However, not everyone tests to that level and may just show as I1 or I-M253.
I1 isn't especially common in Italy but it's not unknown either. Eupedia has a nice list of haplogroup distribution per country and some regions, but in some cases the sample size is small and may not be representative https://www.eupedia.com/europe/european_y-dna_haplogroups.shtml - as you can see, most common Y-DNA haplogroup in Italy is R1b, in common with most of Western Europe, followed by J2, E1b1b and G as the next most common. Eupedia has I1 at 4.5% in Italy.

Nino90
11-05-2019, 02:23 PM
Hello, this is my first post. My father is IZ58 and we are from Florence in Tuscany. My eldest known paternal ancestor was born in Florence in 1680.
Any thoughts? Is there anyone else here from Tuscany? Or Italy? Thank you :)

Welcome. A bit off topic. But have you done a autosomal test yourself?

Acque agitate
11-05-2019, 04:54 PM
Hi Cri,
I live and I am originally from Bologna.
For some years now I have been studying the population of the Tuscan-Emilian Apennines. In our territory I found several people belonging to I-Z58. With which company did your father take the test?

Cri
11-05-2019, 06:57 PM
Welcome to the Anthrogenica forums. I-Z58 is one of the two largest subclades of the overall I1 haplogroup, and is currently dated to between 4000 and 5100 years ago, so common ancestors on the Y line were quite some time ago and I-Z58 has a relatively wide dispersion geographically. It's likely that your father is also part of a more refined subclade underneath I-Z58, but perhaps the DNA test he took was didn't cover the relevant SNPs to determine that. You can take a look at the subclades below I-Z58 in the YFull tree here and the flags next to sample names can give you an idea about how widespread the geographic distribution encompasses: yfull.com/tree/I-Z58/ - it looks like there are 10 folks listing Italy on the YFull tree that are downstream of I-Z58, some with a more refined location (for example, Modena or Avellino) if you hover the cursor over the Italian flag. There is also the FamilyTreeDNA public haplotree here https://www.familytreedna.com/public/y-dna-haplotree/I;name=I-Z58 and this lists 22 folks who list Italy as their paternal origin and are tested to I-Z58 or downstream of that. There are 4696 confirmed I-Z58 in FTDNA's database, so the 22 Italians comprise 0.88% of that. However, not everyone tests to that level and may just show as I1 or I-M253.
I1 isn't especially common in Italy but it's not unknown either. Eupedia has a nice list of haplogroup distribution per country and some regions, but in some cases the sample size is small and may not be representative https://www.eupedia.com/europe/european_y-dna_haplogroups.shtml - as you can see, most common Y-DNA haplogroup in Italy is R1b, in common with most of Western Europe, followed by J2, E1b1b and G as the next most common. Eupedia has I1 at 4.5% in Italy.

Thank you deadly77! This is very helpful. My father tested with Ftdna, the Y-37marker test and he doesn't have any matches. Only 9 matches at 12, 1 from Russia, 2 from Sweden, 1 from Scotland and the others from USA. Now I'm waiting for the results of the Z58 SNP pack that should arrive soon.

Cri
11-05-2019, 06:58 PM
Welcome. A bit off topic. But have you done a autosomal test yourself?

Thank you Nino90!
Yes I did and so my mother and my father.

Cri
11-05-2019, 07:11 PM
Hi Cri,
I live and I am originally from Bologna.
For some years now I have been studying the population of the Tuscan-Emilian Apennines. In our territory I found several people belonging to I-Z58. With which company did your father take the test?

Hi, Acque agitate!
I'm very interested in your studies, for the haplogroup I and also because my paternal grandmother is from Marradi and my maternal great grandmother was from Modigliana, both in the Alto Mugello on the Apennines, at the border with Romagna. In fact that area is called Romagna Toscana.
He tested with Ftdna, the Y37, but I'm waiting for the Z58 SNP pack results.

Acque agitate
11-05-2019, 10:41 PM
"Piero Tatti Niccolai d. 1757 Firenze" is your line?


Hi, Acque agitate!
I'm very interested in your studies, for the haplogroup I and also because my paternal grandmother is from Marradi and my maternal great grandmother was from Modigliana, both in the Alto Mugello on the Apennines, at the border with Romagna. In fact that area is called Romagna Toscana.
He tested with Ftdna, the Y37, but I'm waiting for the Z58 SNP pack results.

Cri
11-05-2019, 11:02 PM
"Piero Tatti Niccolai d. 1757 Firenze" is your line?

Yes, it is!

Acque agitate
11-05-2019, 11:06 PM
Ciao Cri,
If I understood correctly your father performed the test at FtDna. As a first test he performed the test called Y37 and then he did the Pack I-58 (of which he is waiting for the results).
For the future (maybe some other relative of yours wants to take the test) I advise against following the procedure your father has done.
Performing this whole series of tests involves an expense slightly lower than the cost of the complete test called Big Y700. The result you get is, however, much lower (with the Big Y700 you also discover your private snp and therefore your story from the night of time up to now).
This is even more true for the people from our Apennines who very often belong to unknown male lines in other areas, lines that are therefore not tested by the Packs. The risk is to spend a sum slightly less than the cost of the Big Y700, obtaining no result. In the last 2 years many of my friends have tested themselves with similar tests (Yseq) and unfortunately they have turned negative to everything, regardless of their haplogroup (R1b, G2a, J2a, J2b, etc.).

Acque agitate
11-05-2019, 11:09 PM
Tatti is a typical sardinia surname (Oristano), while Niccolai is very common in Pistoia. Do you know exactly the exact origin of your male line?


Yes, it is!

Cri
11-05-2019, 11:31 PM
Ciao Cri,
If I understood correctly your father performed the test at FtDna. As a first test he performed the test called Y37 and then he did the Pack I-58 (of which he is waiting for the results).
For the future (maybe some other relative of yours wants to take the test) I advise against following the procedure your father has done.
Performing this whole series of tests involves an expense slightly lower than the cost of the complete test called Big Y700. The result you get is, however, much lower (with the Big Y700 you also discover your private snp and therefore your story from the night of time up to now).
This is even more true for the people from our Apennines who very often belong to unknown male lines in other areas, lines that are therefore not tested by the Packs. The risk is to spend a sum slightly less than the cost of the Big Y700, obtaining no result. In the last 2 years many of my friends have tested themselves with similar tests (Yseq) and unfortunately they have turned negative to everything, regardless of their haplogroup (R1b, G2a, J2a, J2b, etc.).

Thank you very much for your suggestions! I hope to find something with this pack otherwise I must think about the Big Y700 seriously...The only problem is the expensive cost!
May I ask your opinion regarding the origin of my father's haplogroup? Only the Lombards?

Cri
11-05-2019, 11:53 PM
Tatti is a typical sardinia surname (Oristano), while Niccolai is very common in Pistoia. Do you know exactly the exact origin of your male line?
My surname is only Niccolai and it's a typical Tuscan surname, very common in Pistoia, Firenze and in other parts of Tuscany. Tatti is the surname that my paternal ancestors used together the surname Niccolai until the half of the 17th. I found it in the documents during my genealogic research I begun 5 years ago. The surname Tatti is also a tuscan surname and it's very popular in Prato e Firenze. In fact it's also the real name of the famous florentine architect Sansovino, whose name was Iacopo Tatti (1486-1570).

Acque agitate
11-06-2019, 12:02 AM
Hi Cri, I inform you that many I1 present in our Apennines are very distant from all the other European I1s (current Europeans). There is therefore the possibility that some of them originate from our territory.
Obviously it is possible that your genetic line is of Germanic or Northern European origin (the fact that you are distant from everyone, however, should make you think differently). In this case, however, I think it is unlikely that your origin is Lombard (obviously I cannot exclude it in an absolute sense). In my opinion the northern European contribution present in our territory is probably earlier (deductions in Roman times) or more recent (franc period). When the Lombards arrived in Italy, especially in our territory, their Germanic component had been greatly reduced (as shown by the results of the Collegno cemetery).
In any case, soon we will know your results and therefore we will be able to make more precise considerations.
Finally I inform you that a friend of mine from Bologna, who turned out I-Z58, will soon be carrying out a specific test. maybe you will be distant relatives ...




Thank you very much for your suggestions! I hope to find something with this pack otherwise I must think about the Big Y700 seriously...The only problem is the expensive cost!
May I ask your opinion regarding the origin of my father's haplogroup? Only the Lombards?

JerryS.
11-06-2019, 04:38 AM
I1 makes up about 5% of Sicilian haplogroups, how much more does this occur the farther north you go?

Cri
11-06-2019, 06:05 AM
Hi Cri, I inform you that many I1 present in our Apennines are very distant from all the other European I1s (current Europeans). There is therefore the possibility that some of them originate from our territory.
Obviously it is possible that your genetic line is of Germanic or Northern European origin (the fact that you are distant from everyone, however, should make you think differently). In this case, however, I think it is unlikely that your origin is Lombard (obviously I cannot exclude it in an absolute sense). In my opinion the northern European contribution present in our territory is probably earlier (deductions in Roman times) or more recent (franc period). When the Lombards arrived in Italy, especially in our territory, their Germanic component had been greatly reduced (as shown by the results of the Collegno cemetery).
In any case, soon we will know your results and therefore we will be able to make more precise considerations.
Finally I inform you that a friend of mine from Bologna, who turned out I-Z58, will soon be carrying out a specific test. maybe you will be distant relatives ...

This is very interesting...is he on Ftdna?

Acque agitate
11-06-2019, 11:31 AM
No, 23andme + Yseq


This is very interesting...is he on Ftdna?

spruithean
11-06-2019, 06:11 PM
Hi Cri, I inform you that many I1 present in our Apennines are very distant from all the other European I1s (current Europeans). There is therefore the possibility that some of them originate from our territory.
Obviously it is possible that your genetic line is of Germanic or Northern European origin (the fact that you are distant from everyone, however, should make you think differently). In this case, however, I think it is unlikely that your origin is Lombard (obviously I cannot exclude it in an absolute sense). In my opinion the northern European contribution present in our territory is probably earlier (deductions in Roman times) or more recent (franc period). When the Lombards arrived in Italy, especially in our territory, their Germanic component had been greatly reduced (as shown by the results of the Collegno cemetery).
In any case, soon we will know your results and therefore we will be able to make more precise considerations.
Finally I inform you that a friend of mine from Bologna, who turned out I-Z58, will soon be carrying out a specific test. maybe you will be distant relatives ...


What are the subclades of these Apennine I1? If they are DF29 subclades they most likely came from much further north. The vast majority of modern I1 is DF29+ (Z58 is one of these subclades).

Cri
11-07-2019, 05:45 AM
I have just received the results. My father is Z59. What you suggest me to do now? Thanks

spruithean
11-07-2019, 11:24 AM
I have just received the results. My father is Z59. What you suggest me to do now? Thanks

Which test did you order for your father?

Cri
11-07-2019, 01:03 PM
Which test did you order for your father?

The Z58 SNP Pack at Ftdna.

Acque agitate
11-07-2019, 03:49 PM
I have just received the results. My father is Z59. What you suggest me to do now? Thanks

Ciao Cri, unfortunately what I imagined occurred. After the completion of the Pack (the Italian translation is perfect ...) you only came to know that your father belongs to I-Z59, the main subgroup of I-Z58, a subgroup that probably formed in the same period of the previous: not less than 4,600/4,200 years ago. It does not seem to me to be an exciting result.
I checked and it seems to me as follows (if I am wrong I ask the forum participants to correct me)
1) FtDna found 3,744 people belonging to this subgroup divided into 47 countries (in Italy 12 people);
2) FtDna found 812 subgroups under I-Z59;
3) under I-Z59 there are 4 subgroups of which 2 are minority (not tested by the Pack) and 2 main ones: I-Z2041 (tested by the Pack: negative result), I-CTS8647 (not tested by the Pack; not even its main sub-group, I-Z62 is tested)

In my opinion if you want to discover the history of your family there is currently only one option: run the BiG Y700 with FtDna (or alternatively as I did in 2013, "Y Elite Ancestry Test for Men" by "Full Genomes"). Right now FtDna offers the Big Y700 at the lowest price of the year: $ 399 (I think the price for you should be lower because you did the Y37 test).
It is certainly a high price, but the quality/price ratio is enormously greater than the Pack.

I also point out to you that, as regards your area (I refer to public data obtained from YFull.com):
A) No. 2 I-Z59 were found in Sesto Fiorentino (subgroups: I-Y7278 and I-S2175);
B) No. 1 I-Z59 was found in Modena (sub-group: I-A15598)

If I can help you, let me know.

Cri
11-08-2019, 05:42 AM
Ciao Cri, unfortunately what I imagined occurred. After the completion of the Pack (the Italian translation is perfect ...) you only came to know that your father belongs to I-Z59, the main subgroup of I-Z58, a subgroup that probably formed in the same period of the previous: not less than 4,600/4,200 years ago. It does not seem to me to be an exciting result.
I checked and it seems to me as follows (if I am wrong I ask the forum participants to correct me)
1) FtDna found 3,744 people belonging to this subgroup divided into 47 countries (in Italy 12 people);
2) FtDna found 812 subgroups under I-Z59;
3) under I-Z59 there are 4 subgroups of which 2 are minority (not tested by the Pack) and 2 main ones: I-Z2041 (tested by the Pack: negative result), I-CTS8647 (not tested by the Pack; not even its main sub-group, I-Z62 is tested)

In my opinion if you want to discover the history of your family there is currently only one option: run the BiG Y700 with FtDna (or alternatively as I did in 2013, "Y Elite Ancestry Test for Men" by "Full Genomes"). Right now FtDna offers the Big Y700 at the lowest price of the year: $ 399 (I think the price for you should be lower because you did the Y37 test).
It is certainly a high price, but the quality/price ratio is enormously greater than the Pack.

I also point out to you that, as regards your area (I refer to public data obtained from YFull.com):
A) No. 2 I-Z59 were found in Sesto Fiorentino (subgroups: I-Y7278 and I-S2175);
B) No. 1 I-Z59 was found in Modena (sub-group: I-A15598)

If I can help you, let me know.

Thank you very much Acque agitate!
I have sent you a message.

Northern Adriatic
03-09-2021, 09:52 AM
Let me try to ask for advise here without opening a new thread!

I've tested recently with 23andme v5 and it showed I-Z58 as my paternal haplogroup. That sounded strange to me as I expected R1b or maybe J2 (from the very few information I've had on haplogroups in Italy are the most common). Also my patrilinear heritage is genealogically yet to be confirmed but let's say that it can go in area from Rome to Romagna (basically central-southern Italy, Rome is the most distant certain location and Marche/Romagna are the verbally told origins, but I would not exclude Abruzzo either).

Someone who knows more about these sort of things than I do, suggested me to check the raw data of 23andme and so I did. I tested "negative" for both I-Z59 (and subclades, except for one which was not determined) and I-Z138 (but I-Z139 was not determined). I played a bit with predictors such as morley and yseq website and they all gave me I-Z58.

I am starting to think that I could be a basal I-Z58* or, possibly, part of a future new subclade under I-Z58 (or a pre I-Z139?), if 23andme was right about its calls.

The goal for me would be to work through my haplogroup and patrilinear genealogy (at least up to the 15th century) in order to have a better idea of who my ancestor could be (e.g. a Goth? a Lombard? a Frank? a Norman?).

Now I have to decide which test to do next. I was considering various options but mainly YSEQ WGS400 and FTDNA BIG-Y 700. Any suggestion is more than welcome.

deadly77
03-09-2021, 10:48 PM
Let me try to ask for advise here without opening a new thread!

I've tested recently with 23andme v5 and it showed I-Z58 as my paternal haplogroup. That sounded strange to me as I expected R1b or maybe J2 (from the very few information I've had on haplogroups in Italy are the most common). Also my patrilinear heritage is genealogically yet to be confirmed but let's say that it can go in area from Rome to Romagna (basically central-southern Italy, Rome is the most distant certain location and Marche/Romagna are the verbally told origins, but I would not exclude Abruzzo either).

Someone who knows more about these sort of things than I do, suggested me to check the raw data of 23andme and so I did. I tested "negative" for both I-Z59 (and subclades, except for one which was not determined) and I-Z138 (but I-Z139 was not determined). I played a bit with predictors such as morley and yseq website and they all gave me I-Z58.

I am starting to think that I could be a basal I-Z58* or, possibly, part of a future new subclade under I-Z58 (or a pre I-Z139?), if 23andme was right about its calls.

The goal for me would be to work through my haplogroup and patrilinear genealogy (at least up to the 15th century) in order to have a better idea of who my ancestor could be (e.g. a Goth? a Lombard? a Frank? a Norman?).

Now I have to decide which test to do next. I was considering various options but mainly YSEQ WGS400 and FTDNA BIG-Y 700. Any suggestion is more than welcome.

If you're Z58+ but Z59- and Z138- (and those 23andme results are correct) then you're a rather rare subclade. You'll either break up the phyolgenetic block at I-Z138 which comprises 4 SNPs at both the YFull tree and the FTDNA public haplotree; or you'll be on an a yet unknown third branch off from I-Z58. So far, no one at YFull is I-Z58* and not on the I-Z59 or I-Z138 branch. At FTDNA it's more difficult to say for sure as FTDNA's haplotree includes partial tests such as the SNP packs and single SNP tests.

There are sometimes false positives/negatives in the chip tests from 23andme, etc. If you wanted a quick second opinion, the best option would be to test Z59 and Z138 at YSEQ for the price of $18 per SNP. If that confirms the 23andme results, then it does leave you with the Big Y or the WGS as your only options. Of course, you could just go straight into either of the NGS tests as they will answer the same questions as the single SNP tests, but with a lot more data as well. As for which one, there are positives and negatives to both and I think Dave-V gave you a good and comprehensive answer in this thread https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?23049-Yseq%92s-new-WGS400-WGS-for-399&p=755941&viewfull=1#post755941

I don't believe any NGS test will be helpful in establishing whether your ancestor was a Goth, Lombard, Frank, Norman or whatever. If the 23andme result is correct, you're likely to be branching of from the rest of the known phylogenetic tree somewhere between 5100 and 4100 years ago, which predates all of those groups by several millennia. On the tree, you would likely be I-Z58* with a large number of private/novel SNPs but until someone else comes along that matches some of those private SNPs, you'll stay at I-Z58*.

Northern Adriatic
03-16-2021, 03:41 PM
Thanks a lot deadly. At the end of all YSEQ or Big Y I will probably need to upload the results on YFull tree and wait to see if others share my subclade!