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Elizabeth
11-07-2019, 02:23 PM
I saw this on another forum this morning and want to share it here. :)

"We found greater macrohaplogroup mtDNA diversity than Y-chromosomal (YDNA) diversity. Whereas mtDNA lineages from megalith burials harbor haplogroups K, H, HV, V, U5b, T, and J (among others), males from megalith burials belong almost exclusively to YDNA haplogroup I, more specifically to the I2a sublineage .

Males from the present study belonged to YDNA haplogroup I, and those who could be resolved beyond this level were characterized as belonging to the I2a2a or I2a1b branch."

https://www.pnas.org/content/116/19/9469

Björnsson
11-07-2019, 02:48 PM
I saw this on another forum this morning and want to share it here. :)

"We found greater macrohaplogroup mtDNA diversity than Y-chromosomal (YDNA) diversity. Whereas mtDNA lineages from megalith burials harbor haplogroups K, H, HV, V, U5b, T, and J (among others), males from megalith burials belong almost exclusively to YDNA haplogroup I, more specifically to the I2a sublineage .

Males from the present study belonged to YDNA haplogroup I, and those who could be resolved beyond this level were characterized as belonging to the I2a2a or I2a1b branch."

https://www.pnas.org/content/116/19/9469

I wonder if they included Scandinavian megaliths in the study and didn't find I1. In my estimation, I haplogroups are European and R haplogroups are Indian. Hence, Indo-Europeans are a conglomeration.

Ayetooey
11-07-2019, 03:20 PM
Stonehenge builders were I2a1, but very farmer autosomally. Cool study :)

Björnsson
11-07-2019, 03:31 PM
Stonehenge builders were I2a1, but very farmer autosomally. Cool study :)

K mtDNA is supposed to be Neolithic, so it's possible that Mum's line were directly involved, but the highest % isn't in England, so I don't have confidence that she is prehistoric British. Rather, I'm guessing anywhere between Belgium and Jutland might be where I would find her Katrine.

ph2ter
11-07-2019, 03:43 PM
I wonder if they included Scandinavian megaliths in the study and didn't find I1. In my estimation, I haplogroups are European and R haplogroups are Indian. Hence, Indo-Europeans are a conglomeration.
R haplogroups are in origin East European, not Indian.

Björnsson
11-07-2019, 03:50 PM
R haplogroups are in origin East European, not Indian.

Know any other haplogroups associated with the Vedic Aryans? I didn't say R was ASI or Dravidian. Some of you East Europeans are very touchy about the Satem R1a connection with pagan pre-Christian Indo-Europeans. I don't cry like a baby to see Living DNA say I'm 1.2% Pashtun, who are largely Muslim Afghans. In any case, the point is clear: I haplogroup is native to Europe, even if R is more Eurasian in spread.

Ruderico
11-07-2019, 04:23 PM
Know any other haplogroups associated with the Vedic Aryans? I didn't say R was ASI or Dravidian. Some of you East Europeans are very touchy about the Satem R1a connection with pagan pre-Christian Indo-Europeans. I don't cry like a baby to see Living DNA say I'm 1.2% Pashtun, who are largely Muslim Afghans. In any case, the point is clear: I haplogroup is native to Europe, even if R is more Eurasian in spread.
No was was being "touchy" nor crying, please refrain from being provocative. R is 28000 years old, wherever it arose is kind of irrelevant for this specific topic since megalithic cultures post-date it by over 20000 years

ph2ter
11-07-2019, 04:26 PM
Know any other haplogroups associated with the Vedic Aryans? I didn't say R was ASI or Dravidian. Some of you East Europeans are very touchy about the Satem R1a connection with pagan pre-Christian Indo-Europeans. I don't cry like a baby to see Living DNA say I'm 1.2% Pashtun, who are largely Muslim Afghans. In any case, the point is clear: I haplogroup is native to Europe, even if R is more Eurasian in spread.
I am I2a1 haplogroup and don't care for R, but for the sake of truth the Vedic Arians with R1a haplogroup paternaly originated in Eastern Europe.

Björnsson
11-07-2019, 04:38 PM
No was was being "touchy" nor crying, please refrain from being provocative. R is 28000 years old, wherever it arose is kind of irrelevant for this specific topic since megalithic cultures post-date it by over 20000 years

Right, there's no reason for any SE Euro with I2 to be defensive about R1a having a major part to play in ANI, when I'm NW Euro R1a and have no knee-jerk reaction like some Subcontinent folks find is Davidski's problem. My neutral point is, to affirm the distinction between Old European I and "Indian" R. There was a crossroads somewhere in time and space, to the point now where I is just North and South Europe, whilst R is East and West Europe (regardless of the apparent taboo in acknowledging R for the Indo-Iranian branch of Indo-European--do we kick them and Satemisation to the kerb, for the sake of EU aggrandisement? R1b Britain's R1a curry isn't really that foreign, just a different branch of the same tree that Poland and Norway come from.) Should "Indian" be reserved for Dravidians and R1a Aryans just seen as Eastern European? Labels, labels, labels.

Björnsson
11-07-2019, 04:54 PM
I am I2a1 haplogroup and don't care for R, but for the sake of truth the Vedic Arians with R1a haplogroup paternaly originated in Eastern Europe.

Since you are I2, do you claim ownership and affinity with regards to the megaliths, which are mostly Mediterranean, or do you accept that those in the North may be attributed to the native I1 populace? Before everyone gets too excited, the earliest megaliths were built in Anatolia, IIRC.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/G%C3%B6bekli_Tepe

Ruderico
11-07-2019, 04:57 PM
Since you are I2, do you claim ownership and affinity with regards to the megaliths, which are mostly Mediterranean, or do you accept that those in the North may be attributed to the native I1 populace?

It'd be bizarre, why would anyone do that?

Ayetooey
11-07-2019, 05:01 PM
Since you are I2, do you claim ownership and affinity with regards to the megaliths, which are mostly Mediterranean, or do you accept that those in the North may be attributed to the native I1 populace? Before everyone gets too excited, the earliest megaliths were built in Anatolia, IIRC.

I1 was a very minor haplogroup back then; it's population boomed later on due to a bottleneck. Mesolithic Swedish samples were all tested I2 afaik.

Björnsson
11-07-2019, 05:07 PM
It'd be bizarre, why would anyone do that?Archæogenetics and archæology are very sensitive to some individuals and communities. When scientists wished to further study Kennewick Man, the Indian tribe lost their nerve, because of the Caucasoid appearance and it undermining their folk narrative.


I1 was a very minor haplogroup back then; it's population boomed later on due to a bottleneck. Mesolithic Swedish samples were all tested I2 afaik.Good. On the other hand, it doesn't prove that those with I1 have no connection to the builders, a conclusion some might infer by absence of argument for their absolute relevance to the findings. Hence, a kind of haplogroup subclade monopoly on prehistoric achievements.

ChildofMud
11-07-2019, 05:32 PM
Interesting, my father is I2a1a and my mother is K1a4a1. That means I have direct ancestry from the megalith builders from both sides of the family!

Does this point to polygamy or simply more fitness (sexual selection from women to one particular male)?

Is the line I2a originally European (WHG) as some have thought or is it Anatolian?

Megalophias
11-07-2019, 05:42 PM
It's hard to tell, there's hardly any Palaeolithic remains from Anatolia. Probably European, but there's Y hg I2c at Neolithic Barcın and Menteşe, and mt hg U5b2 at Çatalhöyük. It's also possible some lines could have gone from Europe to Anatolia and back again.

spruithean
11-07-2019, 06:11 PM
Ignoring the strange turns this thread may take, as of yet we've not found any I1 among megalith-era builders. I1 is one of those strange haplogroups that sort of had a population explosion some time around the Late Neolithic and the Bronze Age. Our earliest legitimate I1 so far is seemingly oll009 (see the I1 aDNA thread in the I1 forum). The "I1" samples we have from Hungary and Spain are pre-I1 at best.

ph2ter
11-07-2019, 07:24 PM
Since you are I2, do you claim ownership and affinity with regards to the megaliths, which are mostly Mediterranean, or do you accept that those in the North may be attributed to the native I1 populace? Before everyone gets too excited, the earliest megaliths were built in Anatolia, IIRC.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/G%C3%B6bekli_Tepe
All Neolithic Europeans who have built megaliths and who had offspring and whose lineages did not become extinct are our common ancestors no matter which Y-haplogroup we have.
But I am proud of my Y-haplogroup and that it is in the continent where I live at least since Upper Paleolithic. I am proud of my ancestors who were megalithic builders, and also by those who were Anatolian farmers and those who were Steppe pastoralists and those who were European hunter gatherers.
In the time of megaliths only one male I2a1 line represented my ancestors and only one I1 line living in the time of megaliths survived till today. All other I1 lines became extinct.

Dorkymon
11-07-2019, 07:32 PM
Since you are I2, do you claim ownership and affinity with regards to the megaliths,

Hell yeah, hands off of them, mate B) (joking btw)

Björnsson
11-07-2019, 07:43 PM
Hell yeah, hands off of them, mate B) (joking btw)


Interesting, my father is I2a1a and my mother is K1a4a1. That means I have direct ancestry from the megalith builders from both sides of the family!

Does this point to polygamy or simply more fitness (sexual selection from women to one particular male)?

Is the line I2a originally European (WHG) as some have thought or is it Anatolian?This kind of personalisation is just a tip of the iceberg.

oz
11-07-2019, 10:33 PM
I'm also proud to be haplogroup I and that it's a very European haplogroup. Feels kinda weird though that I'm I1 since there's nothing Scandinavian about me, I mean Scandinavia is pretty far from Bosnia. Although if I happened to have any other haplogroup it wouldn't really matter to me or make any difference.
And I'll be honest at first I was hoping to be R1 cuz it's the most common in Europe and more common than I worldwide. But after a while I no longer gave a shit about that. Besides, I like that I belong to a more rare lineage. I always felt different and special anyway ha ha.

Björnsson
11-08-2019, 12:14 AM
I'm also proud to be haplogroup I and that it's a very European haplogroup. Feels kinda weird though that I'm I1 since there's nothing Scandinavian about me, I mean Scandinavia is pretty far from Bosnia. Although if I happened to have any other haplogroup it wouldn't really matter to me or make any difference.
And I'll be honest at first I was hoping to be R1 cuz it's the most common in Europe and more common than I worldwide. But after a while I no longer gave a shit about that. Besides, I like that I belong to a more rare lineage. I always felt different and special anyway ha ha.

Maybe you descend from the Ostrogoths.

oz
11-08-2019, 04:09 AM
Maybe you descend from the Ostrogoths.

Of course it seems like the most plausible scenario at this point. I guess they eventually completely melted into the Slavic gene pool or got absorbed by it, and only managed to leave some minorities like me.
That's the convenient thing about having I1, you can be quite sure that your ancestor originally at some point was a part of the ancient Germanics. That is if I1-Z63 originated in North Europe which it most likely did, even though it's pretty absent from Scandinavia.

casshu
11-08-2019, 03:10 PM
Being downstream of I2a2a1a1a2, the Primrose 12 individual is of particular interest to me, especially when considering the origins of my surname in relatively nearby County Fermanagh. I am probably wrong, but I am picturing the trek of my paternal ancestors involved hugging the coast line from the Mediterranean, then up the Atlantic coast. Over time, from there to present-day England, then up around to the Orkney Isles, where I2a2a1a1a remains were found entombed. From there, to Ireland, where they settled until my great x 5 grandfather left for colonial America circa 1750.

JonikW
11-14-2019, 12:14 AM
I'm also proud to be haplogroup I and that it's a very European haplogroup. Feels kinda weird though that I'm I1 since there's nothing Scandinavian about me, I mean Scandinavia is pretty far from Bosnia. Although if I happened to have any other haplogroup it wouldn't really matter to me or make any difference.
And I'll be honest at first I was hoping to be R1 cuz it's the most common in Europe and more common than I worldwide. But after a while I no longer gave a shit about that. Besides, I like that I belong to a more rare lineage. I always felt different and special anyway ha ha.

I fully expected to be R1b so I understand where you're coming from. My Y line area of England was settled by Angles and then Danish Vikings, and Scandinavia's not so far away so there wasn't such a disconnect as for you though. It's easy to get lost in SNP labels, so it's mind-blowing to realise that your Y6228 SNP was once a single man with a life, a name, a struggle and journey of his own. And you're part of his legacy.

oz
11-15-2019, 09:12 AM
I fully expected to be R1b so I understand where you're coming from. My Y line area of England was settled by Angles and then Danish Vikings, and Scandinavia's not so far away so there wasn't such a disconnect as for you though. It's easy to get lost in SNP labels, so it's mind-blowing to realise that your Y6228 SNP was once a single man with a life, a name, a struggle and journey of his own. And you're part of his legacy.

Yeah whatever, he could've been a rapist for all I know. Statistically speaking, I can't imagine that every single person alive today doesn't have at least one rapist in their male line. Especially the barbarians coming from the north. Think about that legacy and then realize that women today would rather have an abortion than give birth to a rape child.

JonikW
11-15-2019, 10:51 AM
Yeah whatever, he could've been a rapist for all I know. Statistically speaking, I can't imagine that every single person alive today doesn't have at least one rapist in their male line. Especially the barbarians coming from the north. Think about that legacy and then realize that women today would rather have an abortion than give birth to a rape child.

Blimey... I'm giving my lot the benefit of the doubt on that. I can't imagine being remotely interested in my Y line otherwise. I guess the Migration Period would have more instances of rape than under the megalith builders, but I'm a romantic so I'll assume the best about my ancestors and remain curious and enthusiastic about who they may have been.

Ruderico
11-15-2019, 11:34 AM
Yeah whatever, he could've been a rapist for all I know. Statistically speaking, I can't imagine that every single person alive today doesn't have at least one rapist in their male line. Especially the barbarians coming from the north. Think about that legacy and then realize that women today would rather have an abortion than give birth to a rape child.

Yeah, I'd say we all have our share of rapists, kinslayers, and other sort of unpleasant people in our bloodlines. And good people too, of course. I believe it's best to cut the idealism out, and just stick to the more palpable and pragmatic facts about this ancestry stuff, unless we're talking just a few generations back, in which case their legacy is still visible to us and it's hard (and silly) to ignore it

oz
11-15-2019, 07:34 PM
Yeah I've always been on the pragmatic and logical side, I don't romanticize things much or have grandiose delusions about something especially when I have little to no provable information about it.