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Pribislav
05-29-2020, 09:06 PM
Out of curiosity, why are there so many "fringe" opinions on E-V13's origins? Obviously until we get ancient samples, its all speculation at this point but does anyone ever consider a not very exciting origin? Like, E-M35 forming roughly in Red Sea area, then E-L618 in the Levant and then E-V13 in Northern Greece or Thrace area? Geographically, I doubt it would go from the Levant (E-L618) all the way to Gibraltar. That just seems a bit far fetched to me.

Well, every opinion on E-V13 origin, including the "not very exciting one" you mentioned above, can be considered fringe, since there's not one ancient V13 or L618 sample outside of Europe yet. And it isn't even about V13 having exciting origin, at least in my case, it's about going along with currently available facts. And the facts are Taforalt M78 individuals are by far the closest lineage to the actual ancestor of Z1919 and L618 we have so far. But it seems some people are still in the 2000s, when we didn't have aDNA, and all we could do is guessing based on zero facts.

Bane
05-29-2020, 09:09 PM
Geographically, I doubt it would go from the Levant (E-L618) all the way to Gibraltar. That just seems a bit far fetched to me.

There is nothing to be doubted about multiple tested 15000 years old E-M78 results from present-day Morocco.
They are not E-L618, but I don't see ancient E-L618 in Levant also.
Besides that, there are significantly more ancient E-M78 in the Western Mediterranean compared to a single E-M78 from Levant which is btw negative for Z1919.

So, far fetched or not E-M78 was very close to Gibraltar 15000 years ago.
And I don't see a problem with Mesolithic scenario where a E-M78+Z1919+ crosses the narrow strait and enters Iberian peninsula.

Scythoslav
05-29-2020, 10:04 PM
There is nothing to be doubted about multiple tested 15000 years old E-M78 results from present-day Morocco.
They are not E-L618, but I don't see ancient E-L618 in Levant also.
Besides that, there are significantly more ancient E-M78 in the Western Mediterranean compared to a single E-M78 from Levant which is btw negative for Z1919.

So, far fetched or not E-M78 was very close to Gibraltar 15000 years ago.
And I don't see a problem with Mesolithic scenario where a E-M78+Z1919+ crosses the narrow strait and enters Iberian peninsula.


Actually at Tarforalt site one E-618 was found. This is literally nothing to be debated if no samples of it show up in Levant. “the Iberomaurusian fossils excavated at the Taforalt site were found to carry the Y-DNA haplogroups E-M78*(4/6; 66%), E-L618*(1/6; 16%), and E-M215*(1/6; 16%).

Bane
05-29-2020, 10:13 PM
Actually at Tarforalt site one E-618 was found. This is literally nothing to be debated if no samples of it show up in Levant. “the Iberomaurusian fossils excavated at the Taforalt site were found to carry the Y-DNA haplogroups E-M78*(4/6; 66%), E-L618*(1/6; 16%), and E-M215*(1/6; 16%).


the L618-level SNPs CTS1975 and CTS7273 are both transition SNPs, and their positive calls for TAF009 are both based on single reads, with both of the SNPs at the very end of their reads. So those positives are very likely to be false positives resulting from DNA damage.

source: https://genetiker.wordpress.com/2018/03/18/y-snp-calls-from-the-iberomaurusian-culture/

Also according to YFull L618 should be younger than the Taforalt samples.

digital_noise
05-29-2020, 11:00 PM
Well, every opinion on E-V13 origin, including the "not very exciting one" you mentioned above, can be considered fringe, since there's not one ancient V13 or L618 sample outside of Europe yet. And it isn't even about V13 having exciting origin, at least in my case, it's about going along with currently available facts. And the facts are Taforalt M78 individuals are by far the closest lineage to the actual ancestor of Z1919 and L618 we have so far. But it seems some people are still in the 2000s, when we didn't have aDNA, and all we could do is guessing based on zero facts.

Im quoting a response you made in another thread so please forgive any confusion. From this thread (https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?11538-Genetic-origins-of-the-Minoans-and-Mycenaeans&p=269645&viewfull=1#post269645)
Most important question regarding V13 is when and from where its parent clade L618 came to Europe? Given the absence of E-M78-Z1919-L618 clades in Anatolian Neolithic (0/23), I think it's highly unlikely it came via Anatolia with early farmers. We do have one neolithic M35 sample from Barcin, but with no downstream clades tested, so we can't make any assumtions based on it. IMO L618 came to Europe directly from North Africa, more precisely from modern-day Tunisia (Algeria, Lybia) to Sicily, and from there to South Italy and Balkans. Similarities between North African Mesolithic Capsian culture and culture of Mesolithic population of Western Balkans (east Adriatic coast) have been observed by Yugoslavian archaeologist Borivoj Čović more than 40 years ago:


Its certainly an interesting theory, and what I mentioned earlier is purely based on geographics alone, nothing more. That said, there is a lot of talk about Greeks bringing E-V13 to Sicily and Southern Italy. Are you believing E-V13 was already there before the Greeks set out and established Magna Graecia?

Ramses
05-30-2020, 12:32 AM
Natufian component either originated in Arabia or the Levant

If the Natufian component has originated in the Maghreb it shouldn't have been mixed with african ancestry since this admixture doesn't exist in the Natufains from the levant
and in Egypt the only population we know in the Mesolithic are nubian fishermen they were not even in egypt proper they were also Physically impossible to be of any ancestral relation to Natufians or Iberomaurosians..
also they were thought to carry predominant Haplogroup A as Kadruka samples from Nubia shows (Kadruka were even thought to have had infelunce from the North african pastoralists).

In horn africa its the even clearer before the Pastoralists migration from north africa the people there carried Mota ancestry with no Natufian component.
Idk who would still believe in horn african origin unless he is completely brain-less.

Last but not least , the Basal Eurasian is officially thought to have been in Arabia since and it had a very old presence in the Caucasus according to the Dzudzuana samples

Since Natufian component carry high Basal eurasian ancestry and Unknown Western HG ancestry the Natufian component then might have been formed in Arabia or in the Levant.

So Yes E1b1b back migrated with U6 from the Levant into north africa at two phases Paleolithic then settling the Maghreb and at the neolithic the Pastoralists who brought the afro-asiatic language.

The population who had the Natufian component were not the Natufain themselves but an ancestral population in the Levant.

I believe the aDNA has turned the table and the old theories of African origin of Afro-asiatic speakers is now Impossible to believe.
it's becoming clear that the Afro-asiatic speakers came from a back-to africa migrations from the near east and that there original component formed outside of africa.

drobbah
05-30-2020, 08:07 PM
Do you not believe that E split from D in West Asia then back migrated to Africa? Iberomaurusians had u6 mtDNA that they could have picked up only in Eurasia. Haplo E spread throughout Africa conquering and assimilating native SSA. It’s not a native African haplo like A and B
DE* originated in Africa and the most recent study found haplogroup D0 in three Nigerians.

I believe African E-M35 males mated with Eurasian females all over North Africa (NW and NE).Maternal haplogroups like M1,N1 and U6 were probably responsible for the initial West Eurasian admixture in Africa

Hawk
05-30-2020, 08:43 PM
DE* originated in Africa and the most recent study found haplogroup D0 in three Nigerians.

I believe African E-M35 males mated with Eurasian females all over North Africa (NW and NE).Maternal haplogroups like M1,N1 and U6 were probably responsible for the initial West Eurasian admixture in Africa

It's more complex than that as well. Don't forget the other-way around admixture. the E males mixing with Nilotic/Pygmy females in Sub-Sahara.

Johane Derite
05-30-2020, 08:47 PM
DE* originated in Africa and the most recent study found haplogroup D0 in three Nigerians.

I believe African E-M35 males mated with Eurasian females all over North Africa (NW and NE).Maternal haplogroups like M1,N1 and U6 were probably responsible for the initial West Eurasian admixture in Africa

D0 from the Middle East (Syria and Saudi Arabia) is older and more basal than D0 found in Africa. The most basal and older forms of E* have been likewise found in the Middle East (Asia), and the second oldest in Northeast Africa. Most likely that Nigerian DO came from Middle East.

But enough about this irrelevant issue. This thread is about how E-V13 came into europe, not about DE, which for now is most probably from back migration into Africa.

drobbah
05-30-2020, 09:10 PM
D0 from the Middle East (Syria and Saudi Arabia) is older and more basal than D0 found in Africa. The most basal and older forms of E* have been likewise found in the Middle East (Asia), and the second oldest in Northeast Africa. Most likely that Nigerian DO came from Middle East.

Not according to a recent study (https://www.genetics.org/content/212/4/1421) if anything considering the history of Saudi Arabia and the Middle East.Those men (still unverified if their D0 is more basal) were probably of recent African origin.


In conclusion, sequencing of the D0 Y chromosomes and placement of them on a calibrated Y-chromosomal phylogeny identify the most likely model of Y-chromosomal exit from Africa: an origin of the DE lineage inside Africa and expansion out of the C, D, and FT lineages. It suggests an exit time interval that overlaps with the time of Neanderthal admixture estimated from autosomal analyses, and slightly refines it. These findings are consistent with a shared history of Y chromosomes and autosomes, and illustrate how study of Y lineages may lead to general new insights.






But enough about this irrelevant issue. This thread is about how E-V13 came into europe, not about DE, which for now is most probably from back migration into Africa.
Just came in to correct some of the E-V13 posters who want to present incorrect information on the origins E,E-M215 and E-M35.Anyways, I'll step out the thread and let my E-M78 distant cousins discuss in peace :)

dr.sparco
05-30-2020, 09:52 PM
Not according to a recent study (https://www.genetics.org/content/212/4/1421) if anything considering the history of Saudi Arabia and the Middle East.Those men (still unverified if their D0 is more basal) were probably of recent African origin.





Just came in to correct some of the E-V13 posters who want to present incorrect information on the origins E,E-M215 and E-M35.Anyways, I'll step out the thread and let my E-M78 distant cousins discuss in peace :)

In all fairness the origin of E is still uncertain because nothing is yet really "settled " or "confirmed". The study you've mentioned presents 3 models (2 of them involve back-to-Africa migration) and backs the old theory of the African origin of E from Hammer 1997 and Underhill 2001. Bear in mind that they didn't take the more recent Farrell, Shi Yan and Cabrera Eurasian Origin and Back-Migration of L3 and DE papers into account. With that being said I tend to believe that hp E originated in East Africa rather than West Asia.

Scythoslav
05-31-2020, 02:00 AM
DE* originated in Africa and the most recent study found haplogroup D0 in three Nigerians.

I believe African E-M35 males mated with Eurasian females all over North Africa (NW and NE).Maternal haplogroups like M1,N1 and U6 were probably responsible for the initial West Eurasian admixture in Africa

First I don't believe this.

But,

What do you mean by African though? SSA? You do realize that not only blacks lived in Africa right.

This skelton from Epipaleolithic Egypt showed more affinity to basal eurasian cro-magnoids than modern negroids.

Nazlet Khater[1] is an archeological site located in Upper Egypt. Excavations at the Nazlet Khater 2 site (Boulder Hill) yielded the remains of two human skeletons. One of the skulls was that of a male subadult. The cranium was generally modern in form, but with very wide face, and evinced some archaic traits in the temple and mandible areas. Below the skull, the skeleton was robust but otherwise anatomically modern. Morphological analysis of the Nazlet Khater mandible indicates that the specimen was distinct from the examined Late Pleistocene and Holocene North African specimens.[2] The Nazlet Khater 2 skeleton possesses two plesiomorphic features in its mandible, which are not found among coeval anatomically modern humans. This suggests that the specimen's ancestors may have interbred with neighboring late archaic humans.[3] At Nazlet Khater 4 to the southeast, Upper Paleolithic axes, blades, burins, end scrapers and denticulates were also excavated. The site has been radiocarbon dated to between 30,360-35,100 years ago.[2] The similarities between NK2 and Upper Paleolithic European samples may indicate a close relationship between this Nile Valley specimen and European Upper Paleolithic modern humans.

digital_noise
05-31-2020, 02:53 AM
Im still of the opinion that E-V13 entered Europe via land, be it through Anatolia or the surrounding area. The E-M78's found in Morocco, as far as I know, have not been tested further, so there is just as good a chance that they would be some other North African subclade, not necessarily E-V13. Like predecessors to E-V65 or E-V12?
Regardless, I would love to see some progress made on solidifying the facts. As a fellow E-V13 in the more lonely E-PH1246 side of things, I'm hungry for some progress haha

Riverman
05-31-2020, 04:08 PM
Im still of the opinion that E-V13 entered Europe via land, be it through Anatolia or the surrounding area. The E-M78's found in Morocco, as far as I know, have not been tested further, so there is just as good a chance that they would be some other North African subclade, not necessarily E-V13. Like predecessors to E-V65 or E-V12?
Regardless, I would love to see some progress made on solidifying the facts. As a fellow E-V13 in the more lonely E-PH1246 side of things, I'm hungry for some progress haha
Completely agree. Its important to note that inside of Africa there was a lot of variation and the North East might have been closer to Basal Eurasian and more Caucasoid physically for quite some time. I would even consider the possibility that there was no clear cut border between North East Africa and the bordering Near East at all. Fact is, that Iberomaurusians were basically West Eurasian physically with Subsaharan admixture, influences, from the local population. These are much less pronounced physically and genetically practically absent in Natufians.

There were this sensationalist articles about race wars some years ago, which might point to the way by which E1b/West Eurasian ancestry spread in the North of Africa:

The identity of their killers is however less easy to determine. But it is conceivable that they were people from a totally different racial and ethnic group – part of a North African/ Levantine/European people who lived around much of the Mediterranean Basin.


The two groups – although both part of our species, Homo sapiens – would have looked quite different from each other and were also almost certainly different culturally and linguistically. The sub-Saharan originating group had long limbs, relatively short torsos and projecting upper and lower jaws along with rounded foreheads and broad noses, while the North African/Levantine/European originating group had shorter limbs, longer torsos and flatter faces. Both groups were very muscular and strongly built.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/science/archaeology/saharan-remains-may-be-evidence-of-first-race-war-13000-years-ago-9603632.html

I know of no genetic tests done on the remains so far, but it seems quite obvious that the West Eurasian/Caucasoid people expanding South 13.000 years ago, like described in the article, were the ancestors of another wave from Egypt/Near East pushing on. I have little doubt that the uniparentals, if they test the West Eurasian remains, will reveal E1b, possibly combined with related Near East/East African haplotypes of West Eurasian affiliation.

It can really be limited to Egypt-Near East, either one region or both being interconnected at various times with more regular gene flow taking place.

My basic assumption is that (most) Subsaharan Africans, especially Niger-Kordofan/Bantu, were the result of an even earlier migration from the same source, but about 30.000 years earlier than the first E1b, more clearly Basal Eurasian and West Eurasian expansions. I doubt there will be any other y-haplogroups East and South of Egypt, but even less so in Subsaharan Africa, than A and B before the expansions from Egypt/Near East. The Shum Laka paper points in that direction. Even more archaic moderns with basal A didn't spread much earlier to some regions of e.g. West Africa, as the remains of Iwo Eleru prove. And East Africa further South, beyond the Nile, was only thinly populated, with the closest living moderns being the San.

Johane Derite
06-03-2020, 12:00 PM
FTDNA have one BigY E-V13 > CTS5856* kit, and he is from Switzerland. (According to user rafc on E forum)

Riverman
06-03-2020, 01:31 PM
There is a new paper out which proposes a big scale back migration to Africa spreading E to the continent:
https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.06.01.127555v1

I stick to the Near East or Egypt for the spread of "Basal-Basal-Eurasian" (E1a) and Basal Eurasian (E1b).

Ryukendo
06-03-2020, 01:42 PM
There is a new paper out which proposes a big scale back migration to Africa spreading E to the continent:
https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.06.01.127555v1

I stick to the Near East or Egypt for the spread of "Basal-Basal-Eurasian" (E1a) and Basal Eurasian (E1b).

This is not "migration back to Africa", but rather structure within Africa dating back to the Middle Paleolithic (~300-100kya). Of which one population, the one which gave rise to Eurasians, contributed strongly to the populations that gave rise to Niger-Congo, Nilo-Saharan and to a lesser extent SAf HGs and CAf HGs within the last 100kya.

Riverman
06-03-2020, 02:00 PM
This is not "migration back to Africa", but rather structure within Africa dating back to the Middle Paleolithic (~300-100kya). Of which one population, the one which gave rise to Eurasians, contributed strongly to the populations that gave rise to Niger-Congo, Nilo-Saharan and to a lesser extent SAf HGs and CAf HGs within the last 100kya.

From the paper:

We find that
the method infers high rates of migration from descendants of the OoA event (’non-Africans’) to Africans,
but not in the opposite direction, in the period 30–70kya corresponding to the Late Middle Paleolithic (Fig.
1). In populations from the Niger-Kordofanian and Nilo-Saharan language groups, comprising the majority
of the population on the African continent, the peak inferred migration rate from Eurasian populations
(2.5–3.0⇥10 and 3.5–4.0⇥10 in units of proportion of the target (ancestral African) population replaced
per generation) most frequently falls in the epochs spanning 35–45kya, while peak migration rates in the
opposite direction are substantially lower (0.5-1.0 ⇥ 10and occur earlier, in the epochs spanning 55–70kya
(Supplemental Fig. S1). Populations in the Afroasiatic language group show evidence of large amounts of
directional migration in the Holocene (Supplemental Fig. S2), which is consistent with previous findings of
relatively recent European introgression into these populations [32, 50].

I did write it carefully, but as things stand, its either from North East Africa (Nile valley) or the Levante, Near East. The paper's method can't deduce that from the data. What they however do say is that there was recent Holocene, clearly West Eurasian introgression in Afro-Asiatic populations, which corresponds to the expansion of E1b.

The only way to be sure about the source region is more profound testing of African samples. You can't say whether the spread of E(1a) and Basal-Basal-Eurasian was internal African structure (North East Africa vs. rest) or a true back migration from the Near East or a combination of this with gene flow between Egypt and the Near East taking place at various occasions. In any case its now almost impossible that haplogroup E and "Basal Basal" was actually Subsaharan.

rafc
06-03-2020, 04:00 PM
Just want to make one remark: Below L618 we have three branches, one of which is V13. As you know V13 is very present in the Balkans and among Albanians. The other two branches are extremely rare, but one of them is also found in Albania. This could be an extreme coincidence, or more likely mean that the mrca of L618 lived in or close to the Balkans. I say close because the Balkans was probably mostly depopulated during the 4th millenium BC. The population arriving at the end of the fourth millenium BC is thought to have a Baden background, so coming from central Europe. This fits with L618 (which could be partial V13) being found in the Neolithic Sopot-Lengyel culture. It could also have come from the east where M78 (which could be L618 or partial V13) was found in the Neolithic Cucuteni culture. Given the interactions between neighbouring Steppe cultures and Cucuteni this could maybe explain a bit why V13 is so abundant in a region that was clearly Indo-European speaking, while it's predecessors are associated with local Neolithic cultures. Coming from the south seems unlikely to me, but crossing the Adriatic from the west not. Finally L618 could have just survived somewhere in the Balkans itself. Any possiblilty has the difficulty of explaining why two very distant related L618-branches would have travelled together, or would have been the only two to survive where other, more broadly spread Neolithic lines dissapeared. We really need ancient DNA to better understand this.

Hawk
06-03-2020, 07:10 PM
There is no L618 or V13 among Cucuteni. No wonder that old branch was found in Albania, Cardium farmers first settled in Epirus then in Albania.

leonardus
06-07-2020, 06:44 PM
Archeological cultures do not represent areas of certain Y-DNA. I think quoting wikipedia makes sense in this case:
I highly agree with that. Most peoples here do again and again same mistake by automatic linking of cultures with Y-DNA, since I followed step by step this forum.

leonardus
06-07-2020, 06:55 PM
Just a note on this one - it seems less probable that E-V13 entered Europe.
E-V13 appears to have arisen inside Europe from the line of ancestors of which one of them most likely E-Z1919+(L618-, V22-) did enter Europe (in my opinion from Morocco). This further means that the first E-L618+ man was most probably also born in Europe.
That's my opinion also. And still don't know why all peoples here are sticking with the 'overused' anatolian route when was more logic, simple and fast for a group of seaside peoples to only jump a few kilometers over Mediterana from Tunis/Afrika via Lampedusa-Malta-Sicily or directly, in times when sea level was waaaay lower. A journey of only hours not millenia. Just a plain simple and correct route for a fishermen peoples.

leonardus
06-07-2020, 07:05 PM
Yes, a dead-end lineage (xL618,V22,V12,V65), also very likely not a fully developed M78 since it's CTS4138- (i.e. pre-M78), so it certainly couldn't have been the ancestor of L618. On the other hand, Taforalt samples had ~75% derived SNPs at M78 level, so by the following calculation:

(M78 formation date - TMRCA date) x (percentage of derived SNPs) = 6700 years x 0,75 = 5025 years

they should have been separated from the hypothetical ancestor of all living M78 ~5000 years after the formation of the clade, i.e. ~13000 BC. The sampled Taforalt individuals are dated 13150-11950 BC, which places them in the right time frame to belong to the lineage very closely related to the one to which the actual ancestor of all living M78 belonged.

I'm not saying there's no chance L618 came to the Balkans via Levant and Anatolia (or even via Gibraltar as Bane suggested), I'm just saying it's highly unlikely it originated in the Levant among Natufians. However, currently available aDNA samples from the Middle East don't go in favour of such a path for L618, so I'm still sticking to my Capsian pet theory that L618 came to Europe from the territory of modern Tunisia via Sicily and South Italy in the Late Mesolithic/Early Neolithic.
I highly believe that too. What could be more logic for that, than a very short route on the mediteranea sea from Tunis to Sicily. I agree that the ancestor of the EV-13 did take that path and not the overestimated anatolian one.

Johane Derite
06-21-2020, 09:01 PM
Did anyone consider the possibility that the E-V13's guys in the BA lived in a culture that practiced cremation?

I know the Urnfield culture practiced cremation but that was not a local phenomenon but imported one since the Urnfield culture ultimately developed out of the Tumulus culture that practiced Tumulus or Kurgan burials.

This is what is written about the Urnfield culture on wiki and is supported by citation:

To me this is a sign that pre Indo-European population survived that was able to carry it's burial practices way after the arrival of the Indo-Europeans. The first half of the second millennium is the period of diversification of E-V13 and it's subclades exploding in all directions.
Nevertheless, the territory of Hungary, Romania and Moldova remain crucial for E-V13 and it's homeland. No surprise, E-L618 was found in the Lengyel culture of Hungary and I believe one E-M78 was found in the Cucuteni-Trypillia culture. The only ancient E-V13 sample we have so far that shares the MRCA with all modern E-V13 people is a "Scythian" from Moldova with highly likely local origin.

Both Lengyel and Cucuteni-Trypillia are connected with the EEF of the Thessalian Neolithic and not with the Cardium potery culture. As such I believe that E-V13 is a EEF lineage that arrived in Europe with the EEF from the Fertile crescent and not directly from North Africa as was proposed by some others. Not to mention that NA dna is not detected among the ancient E remains in Europe.

We still need lot more ancient samples but if you look for ancient E-V13 then you must look around or in the Carpathians, just my humble opinion.

I think there's something interesting in your idea of E-V13 introducing cremation to Proto-Urnfielders. Maybe old German / British-Isles branches could be from Urnfield/proto-Urnfield crematers. Since the oldest cremation is supposedly in Hungarian basin, it makes sense there were some E-v13's there that possibly had a role in this tradition.

I don't agree with Cucuteni though, I think for now E-v13 still does have a more west balkan distribution, and even Carpathian branches I would bet are more those in north west carpathians in border with Poland and via hungary rather than from the north east via ukraine.

Since we have two ~7000 year old E-L618's in Hungary, and older one on Croatian coast, maybe we can posit an entry from the adriatic into the hungarian basin (red) and then a re-expansion around 4000-3500 years ago (green) some west and some south.

https://i.imgur.com/KRjEvrB.png

Riverman
06-22-2020, 09:48 AM
I think there's something interesting in your idea of E-V13 introducing cremation to Proto-Urnfielders. Maybe old German / British-Isles branches could be from Urnfield/proto-Urnfield crematers. Since the oldest cremation is supposedly in Hungarian basin, it makes sense there were some E-v13's there that possibly had a role in this tradition.

I don't agree with Cucuteni though, I think for now E-v13 still does have a more west balkan distribution, and even Carpathian branches I would bet are more those in north west carpathians in border with Poland and via hungary rather than from the north east via ukraine.

Since we have two ~7000 year old E-L618's in Hungary, and older one on Croatian coast, maybe we can posit an entry from the adriatic into the hungarian basin (red) and then a re-expansion around 4000-3500 years ago (green) some west and some south.

https://i.imgur.com/KRjEvrB.png

We can still expect a lot of surprise, because who would have thought that Michelsberg was half-E1b? But it is, to me, quite clear that Pannonia was soon after the steppe people's breakthrough a central hub for E-V13, regardless from where exactly it came from this time. But Cucutenis is still the best bet to me, because it would offer the possibility of a Northern AND Southern path very early on, as well as strong position from which early steppe people could have assimilated/accepted some local allies/specialists among their ranks. I still think about the possibility that they had a special role in the steppe people's newly emerging society, like smiths or the like, because being spread in more directions than early R1b/R1a even for some regions. Like they became accepted as a minority element in many people at once - in some they stayed small, in others they rose to prominence. Like with Cardial and Michelsberg earlier, while being low in LBK - probably by pure chance and the success of some small scale male groups, even single males abilities and decision making.

Johane Derite
07-02-2020, 03:20 PM
Here are maps of E-V13 in Albania and which branches. If we can get similar maps for all Balkan and European regions, i think we will have a much clearer idea about E-V13's movements and origins.

E-V13

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Eb7agBnU0AArWNJ?format=jpg&name=4096x4096

Johane Derite
07-02-2020, 03:21 PM
And the branches here:

E-V13>Z5018

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Eb7aicMU0AAsoBM?format=jpg&name=4096x4096


E-V13>Z5017

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Eb7aj_rU0AAt18y?format=jpg&name=4096x4096

leonardus
07-04-2020, 11:58 AM
''Here are maps of E-V13 in Albania and which branches. If we can get similar maps for all Balkan and European regions, i think we will have a much clearer idea about E-V13's movements and origins.''

No links are shown.

Kelmendasi
07-04-2020, 02:21 PM
Here are maps of E-V13 in Albania and which branches. If we can get similar maps for all Balkan and European regions, i think we will have a much clearer idea about E-V13's movements and origins.

E-V13

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Eb7agBnU0AArWNJ?format=jpg&name=4096x4096
Nice map! There are also more samples on this site http://rrenjet.com/databaza-publike/, however the exact locations of the samples are private and some are present in both projects.

Johane Derite
07-04-2020, 03:10 PM
''Here are maps of E-V13 in Albania and which branches. If we can get similar maps for all Balkan and European regions, i think we will have a much clearer idea about E-V13's movements and origins.''

No links are shown.

Its not working for some people, but they are there for me and others. Try it both on a computer, and a phone.

Aspar
07-04-2020, 07:49 PM
I think there's something interesting in your idea of E-V13 introducing cremation to Proto-Urnfielders. Maybe old German / British-Isles branches could be from Urnfield/proto-Urnfield crematers. Since the oldest cremation is supposedly in Hungarian basin, it makes sense there were some E-v13's there that possibly had a role in this tradition.

I don't agree with Cucuteni though, I think for now E-v13 still does have a more west balkan distribution, and even Carpathian branches I would bet are more those in north west carpathians in border with Poland and via hungary rather than from the north east via ukraine.

Since we have two ~7000 year old E-L618's in Hungary, and older one on Croatian coast, maybe we can posit an entry from the adriatic into the hungarian basin (red) and then a re-expansion around 4000-3500 years ago (green) some west and some south.

https://i.imgur.com/KRjEvrB.png

It's an interesting idea which I thought of since a while, especially because many subclades under E-V13 show formation and TMRCA after the EBA, at the time when the cremation in many Balkan and Danubian cultures prevailed over inhumation.

We know that the Baden culture's funeral rite was cremation. Baden developed on the basis of LBK which practiced both cremation and inhumation.
Cucuteni-Tripolye culture is a little bit enigmatic because of lack of burials and human remains found by the archaeologists however judging by few discoveries it seems that the inhumation was the preferred method which is in harmony with the Sredny Stog culture that had great influence from Tripolye culture. However the archaeologists are on the opinion that the cremation was also practiced.
It should be mentioned that the cremation was not what the Aegean cultures such as the Minoans practiced. Probably this has something to do with the fact that the Minoans were not the direct cultural descendants of the earlier EF but of the later Anatolian newcomers who might have brought more CHG related dna.
In Gumelnița–Karanovo culture are found burials. Burials predominate in a twisted side position.
In Bubanj–Hum III culture burials predominate and cremations are rare.

So, of all these Balkan and Danubian cultures the one where the cremation was predominant was the Baden culture.

The following EBA cultures such as Usatovo or Vucedol all practiced inhumations. In Pannonia however it seems that the cremation funeral rites survived and even influenced the Bell Beakers who in turn were known to practice both inhumations and cremation. I would even dare to say that the Chalcolithic and EBA people who lived in Pannonia at the time influenced the Beakers genetically, hence the visible dinaricization of the Beaker's skulls. These practices survived in Pannonia even as late as the Kishaposhtag culture which was a Bell Beaker culture and whose primary funeral rite was the cremation.
What is interesting about the Kishaposhtag culture is that in many ways was a continuation of the culture of Vučedol, especially south of the lake Balaton. Although in Vucedol the inhumations were the norm, an interesting phenomenon was observed in it's latest stage where cremation burials under barrows were observed alongside inhumation. The Serbian archaeologist Nikola Tasic wrote in his "Eneolithic Cultures of Central and West Balkans" that this phenomenon can be interpreted as the beginning of the crisis provoked by the arrival of a new population in the Carpathian basin and the Balkans, a crisis that would eventually bring about the disintegration of the Vucedol culture.
Nevertheless much of the legacy of the Vucedol culture would continue living in the MBA Transdanubian Encrusted Pottery culture or the Inlaid Ceramics Culture that would form on the basis of the Kishaposhtag culture with the participation of populations from the Drava and Sava rivers , representing the traditions of the Vučedol-Zok culture.
The Encrusted Pottery culture influenced to a great extent the cultures of Gyrla Mare, Verbichoara and Tei and there was a migration event from this culture towards the Central Balkans. There is a BA site in North-West Bulgaria dated around 1600-1100 BC with pottery and urns (https://www.archaeology.wiki/blog/2015/11/05/encrusted-pottery-found-bulgaria-necropolis-excavations/#:~:text=Over%2040%20ceramic%20artefacts%20have%20 been%20unearthed&text=The%20settlement%20which%20is%20near,was%20ex cavated%20for%2018%20years.) belonging to the Encrusted Pottery culture.
This Vucedol influence on the Encrusted Pottery culture can be observed in urns in the form of birds that are very similar to the simbol of Vucedol, the Vucedol Dove:

https://i.postimg.cc/qv8Lq328/Vucedol-Culture-ceramic-dove.jpg (https://postimages.org/)


Urns in the form of birds found in Orsoya, North-West Bulgaria:

https://i.postimg.cc/CKv62wRP/201108135022430.jpg (https://postimages.org/)
https://i.postimg.cc/VshckT8P/201108133622116.jpg (https://postimages.org/)


It's worth mentioning also that in Greek Macedonia along the Vardar/Axios river are found artefacts belonging to Gyrla Mare Culture towards the end of phase D of the Bronze Age (about 1200 BC). The population of the Gyrla-Mare culture migrated (https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=tK6OAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA30&lpg=PA30&dq=danubian+encrusted+pottery&source=bl&ots=YscZx-9PVR&sig=ACfU3U0HZ0qSO5GNFQGhDaELitg8wp0-VA&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjEvqTPwqXqAhWEgVwKHcQ1CRAQ6AEwD3oECAgQA Q#v=onepage&q=greek%20vardar%20valley&f=false) south, towards Mycenaean Greece , where the Bronze Age civilization was replaced by the period of the Dark Ages ( Heraclides , Dorian invasion ).

leonardus
07-05-2020, 10:16 AM
It's an interesting idea which I thought of since a while, especially because many subclades under E-V13 show formation and TMRCA after the EBA, at the time when the cremation in many Balkan and Danubian cultures prevailed over inhumation. In Pannonia however it seems that the cremation funeral rites survived and even influenced the Bell Beakers......

I'm thinking also to the ancient BA, dacians and getae together (very close with Pannonia and under Burebista even incorporated whole Pannonia), used extensively cremation over inhumation. Curious thing is that even in iron age they still practiced incineration, thus the scarcity of the human remains for the dacian era in Romania.
P.S. Please, use the complete words and not the abbreviation here, ex/ late bronze age and not LBA. Thank you.

leonardus
07-05-2020, 10:27 AM
The following EBA cultures such as Usatovo or Vucedol all practiced inhumations. In Pannonia however it seems that the cremation funeral rites survived and even influenced the Bell Beakers who in turn were known to practice both inhumations and cremation. I would even dare to say that the Chalcolithic and EBA people who lived in Pannonia at the time influenced the Beakers genetically, hence the visible dinaricization of the Beaker's skulls. These practices survived in Pannonia even as late as the Kishaposhtag culture which was a Bell Beaker culture and whose primary funeral rite was the cremation.
An extremely useful thing would be a synthetic/analytical approach of whole cultures, with a temporal axis coupled with location/geography and distinctive traits, especially for the not so pros in domain. Is any work available for that ?

Aspar
07-07-2020, 11:55 AM
I'm thinking also to the ancient BA, dacians and getae together (very close with Pannonia and under Burebista even incorporated whole Pannonia), used extensively cremation over inhumation. Curious thing is that even in iron age they still practiced incineration, thus the scarcity of the human remains for the dacian era in Romania.
P.S. Please, use the complete words and not the abbreviation here, ex/ late bronze age and not LBA. Thank you.

The problem with the Dacians and Getae is that we have limited information about them before the Greeks and the Romans first mentioned these people(5th century BC for the Getae and 1st century BC for Dacians).
During those times, both people were inhabiting places that were recognized by cultures spread by foreign people, in Transylvania La Tene culture initiated by the Celts and in the territory between the eastern Carpathians and the Black Sea we find Scythian culture.
And during that time as you said about the Dacians we have scarce burials and from what we have it appears they were practicing cremation.
As for the Getae, it seems that they were incorporated into the Scythian culture and inhumation was the usual funeral practice. That's how we have today a few 'Scythian' samples that appear to be genetically locals from the region between the Eastern Carpathians and the Black Sea and whom might be what was known as Getae by the Greeks back in the 5th century BC and among whom we find an E-V13 sample(scy197) that is not just E-V13 but shares the most recent common ancestor with all living descendants today, so not a dead end lineage.

Therefore, we have to look before these timelines and go beyond into the unknown.
And before the above mentioned cultures in those exact places we find the Basarabi culture that developed on the basis of the groups already present in Banat, Transylvania and Moldova in the Early Iron Age such as Gava-Holihradi and Belegis cultures. The ornaments of both cultures were characterized by the channeled pottery style and the cremation was the rule where the dust was deposited in urns. The only exception was in Dobrugia and Bulgaria where the channeled pottery was combined with incised and stamped decorations which shows influences from the Late Bronze Age cultures such as Vatina, Verbicioara, Gyrla-Mare etc.

Nonetheless, the rule was cremation and as such this influence came from further west as it was shown in my previous post that it spread from the Pannonian basin first towards south in the late Vucedol phase(2400-2200 BC) and in the phases BR A1, A2 and B1(1950-1600 BC) according to Reinacke it was already present in Cetina, Vatina and was slowly spreading east towards Transylvania and Dobrugia/Moldova by replacing the previous custom of inhumation practiced by the Ottomány and Wietenberg cultures and possibly a significant shift in population as well causing the disappearance of these cultures and south-east towards Oltenia with Gyrla-Mare or Dubovac-Zuto Brdo group as shown in my previous post.
At last this custom reached Dobrugia and Eastern Wallachia in the Late Bronze Age with the disappearance of the steppe culture of Coslogeni caused by the appearance of a new style ornaments, those of the Channel pottery style with possible further links to Gava-Holihrady culture which in turn was also in great part derived of elements from the Carpathian basin and whose primary funeral rite was the cremation.

This a very good map of the hotspots and places where the cremation ritual was practiced between the 14th and 9th century BC:

https://i.postimg.cc/q7VR3NkS/csm-CBAB-Karte-f057298fa3.jpg (https://postimg.cc/w12gKTRQ)

As you can see, by the Middle-Late Bronze Age and Early Iron Age this custom was widespread in the Balkans, the Carpathian Basin and Northern Italy in particular and the source of spreading was the Carpathian Basin and Pannonia and what was common about all these places and groups is the similarity not only in the funeral rites but also ornaments with the Middle-Danube cultures.
In particular, for Northern Italy, we can observe a similarity with the Terramare Culture:

Comb-shaped pendants (Kammanhänger): (https://www.academia.edu/40913016/MIDDLE_BRONZE_AGE_ENCRUSTED_POTTERY_IN_WESTERN_HUN GARY)
These characteristic ornaments of the Encrusted Pottery culture have a cast, comb-like “body” with
a loop-shaped hanger as “head” and applied with a curving, arm-like middle part.
Comb-shaped pendants have been interpreted as stylized male representations.
All the known pieces of the comb-shaped pendants429 were recovered to the south of Lake Balaton:
a stray piece found at Bonyhád–Szöcske szántók (Pl. 63. 14), and the articles in the Zalaszabar hoard
(Pl. 62. 1–2). One comb-shaped pendant was found outside of Transdanubia alone: Ladislav Hájek
published a piece from Úherce, Czech Republic, representing a mix of variants a and c. Based on
this artefact, Hájek originates the comb-shaped pendants from the Aunjetitz culture, dating this
particular specimen (and its comparative example from Pusztasárkánytó) to the Aunjetitz period,
while he listed the one of Nagyhangos to the Koszider period.430 Amália Mozsolics – depending
on the shape of the hanger – distinguished two types of the comb-shaped pendants; relating these
artefacts closely to the Nagyhangos assemblage assigned to the BIIIb period. Bernhard Hänsel also
discussed the two types occuring in hoards and placed them to the end of the Danubian Early Bronze
Age (FD III); he pointed out that the references from Switzerland, quoted by Hájek previously,
belong to a much later period (Urnfield culture).431 The distribution of the comb-shaped pendants
and more importantly, the mould found at Lengyel – on the settlement associated with the Encrusted
Pottery culture – proves that these objects were produced locally; and thus the piece of Úherce must
be a local replica of the Transdanubian originals.
Another possible origin for the comb-shaped pendants was the Terramare culture432 – with
assumed Italian antecedents of the comb-shaped pendant type. However, a recent detailed study
of the Terramare settlements called attention to that this assumption is not certain either, as bone
pendants similar to variant c found in the Carpathian Basin appear later, in the 2nd phase of the
Italian Middle Bronze Age (Bronzo Medio). This correlates approximately with the Koszider period
in the Carpathian Basin, whereas the bronze versions in this area only become typical from the 3rd
phase.433
Concerning the original use of the comb-shaped pendants, Tibor Kovács collected their
representations on vessels and fi gurines among the material of the (Szeremle–) Dubovác and
the Cârna culture at the Lower Danube area.

What's interesting here is that the bearers of the Terramare culture in it's initial phases were practicing the inhumation burial and in it's later phase exactly when this comb-shaped pendants appear the cremation starts to be the norm. More recently, Italian archeologist Andrea Cardarelli has proposed (https://www.academia.edu/5808394/The_Collapse_of_the_Terramare_Culture_and_growth_o f_new_economic_and_social_System_during_the_late_B ronze_Age_in_Italy) re-evaluations of contemporaneous Greek accounts, such as that of Dionysius of Halicarnassus, and to link the Terramare culture to the Pelasgians – whom the Greeks generally equated with the Tyrrhenians and specifically, therefore, the Etruscans. This proposal in not without a base and as I've shown earlier, it can be correlated with the archaeological finds along the Vardar/Axios river in Greek Macedonia and who belong to the Trans-Danubian cultures and more specifically, Gyrla-Mare or Dubovac group from the Late Bronze Age. These finds in particular can't be associated with the Doric Greeks who only invaded the area in the 8th century BC, and by historical accounts from the Greeks themselves we know that in Greek Macedonia before the Doric Greeks, the Brygians and the Paeonians lived, especially in the area along the Vardar river.

So we see clear archaeological links between the people who the Greeks called Pelasgians/Brygians, Paeonians, Dacians and Thracians.
And not only that but we see links in the representation of these people by the Greeks and the Romans on the various vases and particularly what turns attention is the famous Phrygian cap:

The Phrygian god Attis and the Phrygian king Mithras wearing Phrygian cap:
https://i.postimg.cc/tCHNDhhk/Bust-Attis-Cd-M.jpg (https://postimages.org/)
https://i.postimg.cc/Prt8PKWg/mithras-slaying-the-bull-roman-relief-B10-MW1.jpg (https://postimg.cc/7bWLR3Q9)

Paeonian peltast as depicted on the Greek vases wearing Phrygian cap:
https://i.postimg.cc/SRJQLgR7/peltast.jpg (https://postimages.org/)

The Tracian god Bendis and Thracian peltast wearing Phrygian cap:
https://i.postimg.cc/hvBWvMxt/320px-Artemis-Bendis-Louvre-CA159.jpg (https://postimages.org/)
https://i.postimg.cc/Xvs029T2/377px-Trak-peltasta.jpg (https://postimages.org/)

It's important to note that the Greeks depicted the Phrygian cap as a foreign custom belonging to foreign or barbarous people.

The link can be established further with the fact that the Phrygians and the Thracians shared same gods among whom the supreme or the sky god Sabazios.

In Greece the custom of the cremation also came late, around the sunset of the Mycenaean civilization and the so called Doric migrations.
The Mycenaean Greeks practiced inhumation and especially important to note are the famous shaft graves.
The Doric Greeks on the other hand used cremation and some of the most famous burials are the cremation burials under tumulus as the Royal burials in Vergina.
These customs and many others such as the Illyrian spear or the shield-like hats connect the Doric Greeks with the Cetina culture rather than with the Trans-Danubian cultures.

Ionian with shield hat or kausia:
https://i.postimg.cc/sD0szkKV/320px-Xerxes-I-tomb-Ionian-with-petasos-or-kausia-soldier-circa-480-BCE-cleaned-up.jpg (https://postimages.org/)

Labeatan Illyrian king Gentius:
https://i.postimg.cc/Vs25BbQ9/Face-of-King-Gentius-on-Ancient-Illyrian-coin.jpg (https://postimages.org/)



An extremely useful thing would be a synthetic/analytical approach of whole cultures, with a temporal axis coupled with location/geography and distinctive traits, especially for the not so pros in domain. Is any work available for that ?

There are many works, some are in English others are in other languages.
We are lucky enough that many of them can be found online:
The Oxford Handbook of the European Bronz Age (https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=XoxoAgAAQBAJ&pg=PA974&lpg=PA974&dq=encrusted+pottery+italy&source=bl&ots=U_4bQKPI-L&sig=ACfU3U3cOs5TNGg9An_HmtjQ34TdRzhryQ&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiio6369rrqAhXluXEKHQlWBaYQ6AEwEHoECAoQA Q#v=onepage&q=encrusted&f=false)
Jugoslovensko Podunavlje i Susedne Oblasti U II Milenijumu P.n.e (https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=uyeDMO2T-icC&pg=PA138&lpg=PA138&dq=basarabi+culture&source=bl&ots=5CK6D7oeye&sig=ACfU3U37GZZTejRjMI7B7pfuW4aPTWHPmw&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiBjbT44bnqAhULAcAKHc90DikQ6AEwBHoECAoQA Q#v=onepage&q=basarabi&f=false)
The Cambridge Ancient History (https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=vXljf8JqmkoC&pg=PA61&lpg=PA61&dq=zimnicea+culture&source=bl&ots=QysiarDlOw&sig=ACfU3U28LVdXcrBr5opnakhjmir0c2VLJg&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwimpqW1lrnqAhUUecAKHYdnBR8Q6AEwBHoECAgQA Q#v=onepage&q=vatin&f=false)
Migrations in Balkan History (https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=tK6OAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA30&lpg=PA30&dq=danubian+encrusted+pottery&source=bl&ots=YscZx-9PVR&sig=ACfU3U0HZ0qSO5GNFQGhDaELitg8wp0-VA&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjEvqTPwqXqAhWEgVwKHcQ1CRAQ6AEwD3oECAgQA Q#v=onepage&q=Verbichoara&f=false)
Eneolithic Cultures of Central and West Balkans (https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=m_mAAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA78&lpg=PA78&dq=vucedol+cremation&source=bl&ots=0x7z6IIXob&sig=ACfU3U1q4mA8BT5LoEd6LozI1iFXS7ytjA&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjfpfSWmLTqAhURVBUIHeEuB-EQ6AEwAnoECAkQAQ#v=snippet&q=Verbichoara&f=false)

Riverman
07-07-2020, 12:42 PM
Interestingly, some types of hats, different shapes though, appear in Hallstatt culture too, together with the fashion of shaving both head and beard hair:
http://iza.zrc-sazu.si/Grafika/Dolenj/situla.jpg
https://i.pinimg.com/originals/c1/e2/6a/c1e26a81daf5e37a131982db61125c79.jpg
https://regolinigalassi.files.wordpress.com/2012/04/certosa_situla_bologna_detail.jpg

The elite culture was quite peculiar and I'm assuming Thraco-Cimmerian early influences for the whole culture and Illyrian predominance in the Eastern sphere later, with strong Eastern Mediterranean/Greek influences in the Western Hallstatt centres. In some pieces of the situla art it almost looks like the higher social rank was shown off by larger hats.

The comparison of the Greek hats with the Hallstatt fashion is striking:
https://image.shutterstock.com/z/stock-vector-isolated-vector-illustration-ancient-greek-young-hunter-holding-weapon-in-a-hat-based-on-antique-1169071492.jpg

The way a people wore their hair and beard too is something one shouldn't take lightly. It changed with new cults, social organisations and fashion trends, which shouldn't be confused with what we might understand now under "fashion", but it still could mean a lot. Just want to remind on the change from Hallstatt, to La Tene, to late Republican Roman to different Germanic tribes and groups, like the Suebian knot. It could be a decisive social and ethnic signal. Like among Thracians different hats were worn by different social classes according to some classical authors.

leonardus
07-08-2020, 09:25 AM
The problem with the Dacians and Getae is that we have limited information about them before the Greeks and the Romans first mentioned these people(5th century BC for the Getae and 1st century BC for Dacians).
I just don't know how to thank you for the vast reply.

Xisco
01-17-2021, 11:19 PM
Hello, I am an E-Y33577 from Mallorca. My subclade has nothing to do with the Roman auxiliary troops, if not the 14th century slave market that existed in Mallorca, many of them were of Greek and Balkan origin. a greeting.

Riverman
01-17-2021, 11:44 PM
Hello, I am an E-Y33577 from Mallorca. My subclade has nothing to do with the Roman auxiliary troops, if not the 14th century slave market that existed in Mallorca, many of them were of Greek and Balkan origin. a greeting.

Welcome :)

Your subclade is another example of the same pattern we can observe quite a lot within E-V13: The regional subclades have a TMRCA dating back to the LBA-EIA, not older, not younger. This leaves a lot of possibilities, especially a spread with Urnfield-Hallstatt-La Tene Celts to the West. Your next level shows this quite well:
https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-FGC11457/

There is practically no overlap of the geographical extremes dating to the historical period, the closest it gets is the Iron Age. In your particular case it might be a more recent origin from the Balkans, or something else, Celtic or related. Only more samples from ancient DNA, as well as your and related subclades can tell the story in the future.

Xisco
01-18-2021, 08:52 AM
If something characterized medieval Mallorcan society in relation to other Christian societies in modern Western Europe, it was undoubtedly the importance of slavery: it has been estimated that the slave population could constitute between 10 and 30% of the total population of Mallorca during the 14th century. In the fourteenth century the Greeks, Sardinians and Muslims predominated. In the 15th century it was divided into two groups defined by people of Eastern Europe: Russians, Abcasians, Tatars, Circassians, or those of Balkan origin: Bulgarians, and to a lesser extent Greeks, Albanians and Serbs.

Riverman
01-18-2021, 09:00 AM
If something characterized medieval Mallorcan society in relation to other Christian societies in modern Western Europe, it was undoubtedly the importance of slavery: it has been estimated that the slave population could constitute between 10 and 30% of the total population of Mallorca during the 14th century. In the fourteenth century the Greeks, Sardinians and Muslims predominated. In the 15th century it was divided into two groups defined by people of Eastern Europe: Russians, Abcasians, Tatars, Circassians, or those of Balkan origin: Bulgarians, and to a lesser extent Greeks, Albanians and Serbs.

Do you have a historical, genealogical proof for being a descendant of a slave? If not, you can't know what your case history was. In most regions slaves impact on the later total population was rather limited. There are regional exceptions, but generally speaking.

Xisco
01-18-2021, 09:02 AM
On the island there are several families that belong to E-V13 that are not in YFull or FTDNA. Two of them belong to Xueta families (Jews).

Riverman
01-18-2021, 09:05 AM
On the island there are several families that belong to E-V13 that are not in YFull or FTDNA. Two of them belong to Xueta families (Jews).

There are specific subclades known to be Jewish, but without a close relationship to each other and within gentile frameworks. So it seems the E-V13 Jewish subclades represent mostly early European converts, with some occasional later thrown in.

Xisco
01-18-2021, 09:09 AM
The Xueta are very old on the island, before the Muslim conquest.

Hawk
01-18-2021, 09:10 AM
In Xiscos case, it looks like his subclade could be as a result of historical migration, either Roman times or Byzantine times. Maybe Thracian/Paeonians?!

Xisco
01-18-2021, 09:15 AM
I have requested a BigY from a friend Xueta family who in a study by the UIB (University of the Balearic Islands) gave E-M78. I'm going to find out which branch it belongs to.

Xisco
01-18-2021, 09:21 AM
My family by paternal line is documented until the year 1469 of a Sardinian peasant from Cagliari who went to Mallorca to work and get married. Cagliari at that time belonged to the Crown of Aragon.42669

Aspar
01-18-2021, 09:41 AM
Hello, I am an E-Y33577 from Mallorca. My subclade has nothing to do with the Roman auxiliary troops, if not the 14th century slave market that existed in Mallorca, many of them were of Greek and Balkan origin. a greeting.

Welcome to the forum.

You are in a subclade with a Bulgarian guy with origins from Greek Macedonia, from a village with a characteristic Eastern Romance name although the population was a Slavic speaking.

Of course, your subclade might be the result of a Slave trade during the 14th century as you say however the slaves from the Balkans during that time as a result of a Muslim Ottoman slave trade were mostly women. And I doubt a male slave in Mallorca from the Balkans would have been able to free himself and even successfully integrate in the society and make a family. Second, you can only be sure that your subclade is a result of a slave trade if you form a subclade with Balkan people with a TMRCA in the Medieval times as 14th century is quite recent.

I believe that the TMRCA between you and the Bulgarian might be perfect for a subclade spread by the Romans. Let's assume that both of you descend from a Balkan man living in the 7th century BCE. This might even be the 4th century BCE as estimations for TMRCA based on SNPs might vary by 300-400 years. This Balkan man had few sons who also had few sons as well and were able to continue their male line all the way to Roman times. Then the Romans came in the second century BCE and conquered large parts of the Balkans. Their first recruits in the Roman legions from the Balkans come from Macedonia. Then in the third century AD there is a huge influx of Thracian soldiers in the Roman legions. I don't know the history of Iberia and Mallorca and which Roman legions served there but I believe the Roman presence in Mallorca was quite long and continued even during Byzantine times when Justinian managed to capture the islands back in Byzantine/Roman possession.

Other options might be Roman people again who came to the islands as administrators or workers and even slaves.

Or your subclade in Mallorca might be the result of movements of people way before the Romans. For example, within Hallstatt or La Tene culture zones of influence.

Whatever it is, I wish you luck in finding more about your subclade.

Edit: I've just seen you Sardinian story. E-V13 in Sardinia is mostly concentrated along the coast and might very well be of Roman origin according to Eupedia admin. I can't really say how reliable is that.

Xisco
01-18-2021, 09:59 AM
Welcome to the forum.

You are in a subclade with a Bulgarian guy with origins from Greek Macedonia, from a village with a characteristic Eastern Romance name although the population was a Slavic speaking.

Of course, your subclade might be the result of a Slave trade during the 14th century as you say however the slaves from the Balkans during that time as a result of a Muslim Ottoman slave trade were mostly women. And I doubt a male slave in Mallorca from the Balkans would have been able to free himself and even successfully integrate in the society and make a family. Second, you can only be sure that your subclade is a result of a slave trade if you form a subclade with Balkan people with a TMRCA in the Medieval times as 14th century is quite recent.

I believe that the TMRCA between you and the Bulgarian might be perfect for a subclade spread by the Romans. Let's assume that both of you descend from a Balkan man living in the 7th century BCE. This might even be the 4th century BCE as estimations for TMRCA based on SNPs might vary by 300-400 years. This Balkan man had few sons who also had few sons as well and were able to continue their male line all the way to Roman times. Then the Romans came in the second century BCE and conquered large parts of the Balkans. Their first recruits in the Roman legions from the Balkans come from Macedonia. Then in the third century AD there is a huge influx of Thracian soldiers in the Roman legions. I don't know the history of Iberia and Mallorca and which Roman legions served there but I believe the Roman presence in Mallorca was quite long and continued even during Byzantine times when Justinian managed to capture the islands back in Byzantine/Roman possession.

Other options might be Roman people again who came to the islands as administrators or workers and even slaves.

Or your subclade in Mallorca might be the result of movements of people way before the Romans. For example, within Hallstatt or La Tene culture zones of influence.

Whatever it is, I wish you luck in finding more about your subclade.

Edit: I've just seen you Sardinian story. E-V13 in Sardinia is mostly concentrated along the coast and might very well be of Roman origin according to Eupedia admin. I can't really say how reliable is that.

Only in the town of Pollensa 66 Slavs of Greek origin are registered. In Mallorca there were two brotherhoods of Greek freedmen. Most were men, captives of the Crown of Aragon in their possessions by Greece. In Majorca the slaves obtained freedom with their work. I invite you to search the Internet for a bit about slavery in Mallorca. a greeting

Bane
01-18-2021, 10:03 AM
My family by paternal line is documented until the year 1469 of a Sardinian peasant from Cagliari who went to Mallorca to work and get married. Cagliari at that time belonged to the Crown of Aragon.


The A11837 branch to which I belong is also present in Sardinia. Age of A11837 is very similar to the age of E-BY4914 branch (yours). So the story of your subclade and my cousin subclade could be virtually the same.
My own explanation for presence of A11837 in Sardinia is that it should be traced to the time of Greek colonization.

Xisco
01-18-2021, 10:04 AM
Only in the town of Pollensa 66 Slavs of Greek origin are registered. In Mallorca there were two brotherhoods of Greek freedmen. Most were men, captives of the Crown of Aragon in their possessions by Greece. In Majorca the slaves obtained freedom with their work. I invite you to search the Internet for a bit about slavery in Mallorca. a greeting

The slave market moved throughout the Mediterranean and the stopovers were Greece, Sicily, Sardinia, Majorca and Barcelona.42668

Xisco
01-18-2021, 10:07 AM
The A11837 branch to which I belong is also present in Sardinia. Age of A11837 is very similar to the age of E-BY4914 branch (yours). So the story of your subclade and my cousin subclade could be virtually the same.
My own explanation for presence of A11837 in Sardinia is that it should be traced to the time of Greek colonization.

it could be that they were.

Xisco
01-18-2021, 10:12 AM
The funny thing is that the family paternal lines are mine E-V13 and my mother's paternal line E-M81 and my wife's paternal line E-M81. It seems that we have gathered all the Haplogroups E.

Aspar
01-18-2021, 10:34 AM
Only in the town of Pollensa 66 Slavs of Greek origin are registered. In Mallorca there were two brotherhoods of Greek freedmen. Most were men, captives of the Crown of Aragon in their possessions by Greece. In Majorca the slaves obtained freedom with their work. I invite you to search the Internet for a bit about slavery in Mallorca. a greeting

I believe that the possessions of the Crown of Aragon in Greece were mostly in southern Greece, not in Macedonia where your match comes from and he is not of Greek origin btw.
But as you already mentioned of Sardinian family story, your subclade might have arrived to Mallorca with a slave from Sardinia during the 14th century.
However in more ancient times, there might be Balkan connection to the presence of your subclade in Sardinia if the Sardinian story is true and if your subclade is present in Sardinia at all. The Romans had presence in Sardinia, the ancient Greeks did not I believe.

Xisco
01-18-2021, 10:34 AM
We will be waiting for more current samples to come out. We have already contributed our grain of sand by contributing with new SNPs and that if others are found that are positive for them, we will move forward.

Xisco
01-18-2021, 10:45 AM
I believe that the possessions of the Crown of Aragon in Greece were mostly in southern Greece, not in Macedonia where your match comes from and he is not of Greek origin btw.
But as you already mentioned of Sardinian family story, your subclade might have arrived to Mallorca with a slave from Sardinia during the 14th century.
However in more ancient times, there might be Balkan connection to the presence of your subclade in Sardinia if the Sardinian story is true and if your subclade is present in Sardinia at all. The Romans had presence in Sardinia, the ancient Greeks did not I believe.

Have you ever heard The Battle of Apros that fought the Almogávares. The first squad of Almogávares faced the Alans and Turks, who were repelled and later fled, leaving the Byzantine infantry exposed on the left flank, which encountered the charge of the first squad of Almogávares and part of the cavalry, while the The rest of the Almogávares carried through the center. In front of the Almogávar onslaught, the infantry fell, finally fleeing. The Thracian and Macedonian cavalry was the only one that was able to maintain its position, facing the Almogávar cavalry and defending a squadron until it was overwhelmed by the rest of the Almogávars entering from the other flank and through the center. At that time they withdrew, with a great loss of troops. The defeat left the Byzantine Empire without an army and the Almogavars dominating most of Thrace. From there there were captives taken to the slave market.

Ruderico
01-18-2021, 10:48 AM
Hola Xisco, bienvenido!

Wasn't one of the Visigothic samples from Iberia a subclade under E-V13 as well? I fear Xisco's terminal subclade may be too recent to give us any certainties, and the closest parallel branch (with the Bulgarian) too distant - there's a huge gap, both in time and geography. We could find many possible explanations. How common are subclades under E-V13 in Sardinia?

I thought it was strange for an archipelago that was repopulated by Catalans during the Middle Ages to show a somewhat "un-Catalan" trend towards the central/eastern Mediterranean. The Roman/Byzantine presence could explain it, but on the other hand it would have been an older layer of ancestry that was partially replaced by Catalan-speaking individuals during the Reconquista, and looking at modern Catalans (and those two early Medieval ones) that doesn't seem to be their trend within Iberia. Your theory about a more recent presence of individuals from other areas of the Mediterranean explains this trend quite well, it's good to know, I had no idea that had been the case.

Xisco
01-18-2021, 10:49 AM
From there there were captives who were taken to the slave market.

Xisco
01-18-2021, 10:56 AM
Hola Xisco, bienvenido!

Wasn't one of the Visigothic samples from Iberia a subclade under E-V13 as well? I fear Xisco's terminal subclade may be too recent to give us any certainties, and the closest parallel branch (with the Bulgarian) too distant - there's a huge gap, both in time and geography. We could find many possible explanations. How common are subclades under E-V13 in Sardinia?

I thought it was strange for an archipelago that was repopulated by Catalans during the Middle Ages to show a somewhat "un-Catalan" trend towards the central/eastern Mediterranean. The Roman/Byzantine presence could explain it, but on the other hand it would have been an older layer of ancestry that was partially replaced by Catalan-speaking individuals during the Reconquista, and looking at modern Catalans (and those two early Medieval ones) that doesn't seem to be their trend within Iberia. Your theory about a more recent presence of individuals from other areas of the Mediterranean explains this trend quite well, it's good to know, I had no idea that had been the case.

Not only were they Catalans, there were a large number of Occitan French who were second in number, Genoese, Navarrese, Sardinian, Castilian, etc ...

Ruderico
01-18-2021, 10:57 AM
Not only were they Catalans, there were a large number of Occitan French who were second in number, Genoese, Navarrese, Sardinian, Castilian, etc ...

Only the Genoese, of those populations, trend towards the eastern Mediterranean genetically speaking.

Xisco
01-18-2021, 10:59 AM
Nuestra lengua era occitana, no catalana. Catalan was considered a dialect of Occitan until the end of the 19th century and is still its closest relative today.

Ruderico
01-18-2021, 11:09 AM
Nuestra lengua era occitana, no catalana.

Language aside, since I have limited knowledge of the Balearic islands' history, I suggest you read Bycroft's excellent study on Iberia. It's just a shame she didn't use ancient samples on her analysis, but rather other modern populations that make the models underwhelming.

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-018-08272-w


You can see a cluster analysis done on co-ancestry, Balearic individuals were placed on a branch that split from the Catalan cluster.
https://media.springernature.com/lw685/springer-static/image/art%3A10.1038%2Fs41467-018-08272-w/MediaObjects/41467_2018_8272_Fig2_HTML.png?as=webp

Xisco
01-18-2021, 11:38 AM
Language aside, since I have limited knowledge of the Balearic islands' history, I suggest you read Bycroft's excellent study on Iberia. It's just a shame she didn't use ancient samples on her analysis, but rather other modern populations that make the models underwhelming.

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-018-08272-w


You can see a cluster analysis done on co-ancestry, Balearic individuals were placed on a branch that split from the Catalan cluster.
https://media.springernature.com/lw685/springer-static/image/art%3A10.1038%2Fs41467-018-08272-w/MediaObjects/41467_2018_8272_Fig2_HTML.png?as=webp

I focus on population documentation and send an example sending the list of immigrants from the 15th century. In it you can see name, surname and place of origin. http://llinatgesdemallorca.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/05/Immigrants_XV_2.pdf

Ruderico
01-18-2021, 11:45 AM
I focus on population documentation and send an example sending the list of immigrants from the 15th century. In it you can see name, surname and place of origin. http://llinatgesdemallorca.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/05/Immigrants_XV_2.pdf

That's very interesting and invaluable information, have you traced your patrilinear genealogy back to this specific individual you see on the list?

Xisco
01-18-2021, 12:00 PM
Yes, I have made DNA samples to the other Aloy of French origin and its result is R-M207> M173> M343> L754> L389> P297> M269> L23> P310> L151> P312> ZZ11> DF27> Z195> Z274> Z209 . Our branch E-V13> CTS8814> CTS5856> BY3880> Z5018> S2979> FGC11457> FGC11451> DYS434 = 8> BY4914> BY19731. My family fought against the Crown of Aragon in the revolution of the Germanías.42671

Xisco
01-18-2021, 12:06 PM
That's very interesting and invaluable information, have you traced your patrilinear genealogy back to this specific individual you see on the list?

At present, few know that the lands that they tread today in Mallorca were the scene of very violent deaths.
«Majorcans have the right to know and learn more about their past, and public institutions have the duty to promote and disseminate it. This movement supposed a very numerous reduction of the population of the island. The Germanías were the bloodiest civil conflict of the Middle Ages on the island. The population of Mallorca, in addition to the virulent component and the ruthless repression of which it was subjected, followed by the imposition of very important punishments, executions and fines (composats in Majorcan pounds, the old currency of Mallorca). »
"Pac qui Deu" - "February 7, 1521."
This next February 7, 2021, it will be 500 years since the revolt of the Germanías, one of the most important episodes in the history of Mallorca. In memory of them, among whom were ancestors members of my family. "I am a descendant in my paternal line of an agermanat." That they are not forgotten.
Five hundred years after the start of the revolt of the Germanías de Mallorca. Directly related to that of the Valencians, the Majorcan agermanats took up arms in 1521 to obtain the radical reform of the public economy as well as the abolition of the census and other taxes that drowned farmers and craftsmen. In Majorca, almost the entire Part Forana - that is, all those who were from outside the capital - with the exception of the city of Alcudia and the castle of Santuari de Felanitx, sided with the revolutionary leaders. The armed clashes and even the open battles smiled in the first instance at the rebels. To the point that Viceroy Miguel de Gurrea had to take refuge in Ibiza, from where he requested troops from the crown to quell the Mallorcan rebellion. After a year of victories, the agermanats, led, as it is known, by Joanot Colom, saw an impressive royal army of professional soldiers disembark in Alcudia in October 1522, a city where the royalists had become strong. From there the counterrevolutionary forces were systematically attacking the main armed points of the Agermanats, defeating them inexorably one after another, in a path of blood and fire that led them towards Palma. At the end of the year the king's army encircled the Majorcan capital in the hands of the rebels. At the end of March 1523 they surrendered and the viceroy began a massive and fierce repression.


Are historical data, not political. That they are not used for that purpose.

Riverman
01-18-2021, 12:21 PM
Welcome to the forum.

You are in a subclade with a Bulgarian guy with origins from Greek Macedonia, from a village with a characteristic Eastern Romance name although the population was a Slavic speaking.

Of course, your subclade might be the result of a Slave trade during the 14th century as you say however the slaves from the Balkans during that time as a result of a Muslim Ottoman slave trade were mostly women. And I doubt a male slave in Mallorca from the Balkans would have been able to free himself and even successfully integrate in the society and make a family. Second, you can only be sure that your subclade is a result of a slave trade if you form a subclade with Balkan people with a TMRCA in the Medieval times as 14th century is quite recent.

I believe that the TMRCA between you and the Bulgarian might be perfect for a subclade spread by the Romans. Let's assume that both of you descend from a Balkan man living in the 7th century BCE. This might even be the 4th century BCE as estimations for TMRCA based on SNPs might vary by 300-400 years. This Balkan man had few sons who also had few sons as well and were able to continue their male line all the way to Roman times. Then the Romans came in the second century BCE and conquered large parts of the Balkans. Their first recruits in the Roman legions from the Balkans come from Macedonia. Then in the third century AD there is a huge influx of Thracian soldiers in the Roman legions. I don't know the history of Iberia and Mallorca and which Roman legions served there but I believe the Roman presence in Mallorca was quite long and continued even during Byzantine times when Justinian managed to capture the islands back in Byzantine/Roman possession.

Other options might be Roman people again who came to the islands as administrators or workers and even slaves.

Or your subclade in Mallorca might be the result of movements of people way before the Romans. For example, within Hallstatt or La Tene culture zones of influence.

Whatever it is, I wish you luck in finding more about your subclade.

Edit: I've just seen you Sardinian story. E-V13 in Sardinia is mostly concentrated along the coast and might very well be of Roman origin according to Eupedia admin. I can't really say how reliable is that.

Like most of the time I can only agree. However, considering Sardinia, almost the whole range of Western, Central, Southern and South Eastern Europe was covered by Sardinia, simply because they took a really big sample at high resolution.


In Xiscos case, it looks like his subclade could be as a result of historical migration, either Roman times or Byzantine times. Maybe Thracian/Paeonians?!

One thing is for sure, the island was not the source region :)
Other than that, we don't know, especially not in his larger group, because without source references from ancient DNA or close TMRCA's, how can anybody know? There are a lot of possibilities, yet I agree, a Daco-Thracian origin looks like a distinct possibility with an Iron Age Bulgarian sister subclade:
https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-BY4914/

But on the other hand about 700 BC leaves a lot of options, just like Aspar said.

Xisco
01-18-2021, 12:26 PM
Results of the project of the Surname Aloy de Mallorca: https://www.familytreedna.com/public/Aloy?iframe=yresults

The Majorcan E-V13 branch is getting bigger and bigger. One more sample of the E-BY4914 subclade will enter. 5 samples in Mallorca.

All the Aloy of the town of Sencelles are in subclade of E-BY4914.

Xisco
01-18-2021, 01:03 PM
Like most of the time I can only agree. However, considering Sardinia, almost the whole range of Western, Central, Southern and South Eastern Europe was covered by Sardinia, simply because they took a really big sample at high resolution.



One thing is for sure, the island was not the source region :)
Other than that, we don't know, especially not in his larger group, because without source references from ancient DNA or close TMRCA's, how can anybody know? There are a lot of possibilities, yet I agree, a Daco-Thracian origin looks like a distinct possibility with an Iron Age Bulgarian sister subclade:
https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-BY4914/

But on the other hand about 700 BC leaves a lot of options, just like Aspar said.

In the Balkan origin there is no doubt, it is necessary to find out that great time that is left blank. More quality samples are needed to move forward. We are doing our best to enter new SNPs and see if someone joins them. We remain in the 14th century and until the 7th century BC there is much left.

Bane
01-18-2021, 01:19 PM
it could be that they were.

For E-A11837 and E-BY4914 to reach Sardinia through some northern route we would so far have to have some positive results in Western Europe. But we don't have them.
That is why I'm quite confident about the Southern Route. And the Greek Colonization fits well with the age of those clades and of course with the direction of migration.

Xisco
01-18-2021, 01:24 PM
For E-A11837 and E-BY4914 to reach Sardinia through some northern route we would so far have to have some positive results in Western Europe. But we don't have them.
That is why I'm quite confident about the Southern Route. And the Greek Colonization fits well with the age of those clades and of course with the direction of migration.

As long as a sample of E-BY4914 does not appear in the rest of Europe that says otherwise, the only possible route is the Mediterranean. We are negative on E-FGC11450, the majority subclade in Northern Europe.

Xisco
01-18-2021, 01:36 PM
E-FGC11457 has only been found on the island of Mallorca and a sample in Aragon throughout Spain. There are no more positive samples. It does not seem that it is a very old subclade in Spain to be of Roman auxiliary troops. With all this time they have not left any more genetic trace? I'd say they are due to more recent migrations. Time will give us the answer.

Ruderico
01-18-2021, 03:38 PM
There are two things you should consider independently for a moment.

1) DNA

According to FTDNA project there are 2 clusters who share the same surname, the larger Mallorcan one, and the French individual who's in a separate one.
These two groups belong to distinct haplogroups and do not share a paternal ancestor, despite both having the same surname. Naturally at least one of these got the yDNA/surname from a different source.

The Mallorcan cluster has a TMRCA of 125ybp. ybp is standardised to 1950CE, so all these Mallorcans are estimated to share a paternal ancestor who lived somewhen in the early 1800s. There's no DNA data that allows us to track back without going into pre-history. From 700BCE to 1800CE there's a massive time gap that could be explained by a myriad of reasons, but there's no data to analyse what could have been more likely.


2) Documented genealogy

Going by the information provided by the Aloy project members, the earliest documented ancestor was Pere Josep Aloy, b. 1797. None of the members have listed an earlier patrilinear ancestor. The earliest individual with the surname 'Aloy' (Joan Aloy) is documented in 1469CE, so there's a gap of over 300 years between this individual and the earliest documented ancestor of all these Aloy individuals.

While it's likely they are related, it still should be proven with documentation that they are all descended from Joan Aloy through the direct male line, rather than simply assumed based on surname. Until this is done, we should be careful about linking it to Sardinia.
I don't know how strict surname patrilinearism was in Mallorca since my experience was built with Portuguese records, but around here there's multiple discontinuities of a male-line surname, as well as adoption of surnames from a maternal line. My case, an unbroken chain of the same documented paternal surname dating back to the 1600s, is probably not the most common because of surname changes, adoptions, or simply because of child abandonment. My mother's patrilinear surname sprung out of the blue in mid-late 1700s, for example, and had changed twice since my earliest documented ancestor on that same male line.