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A321son
11-09-2019, 09:23 PM
The aDNA sample VK389 places R-Z346 in Telemark, Norway in the 5th-6th century A.D. I've read posts that suggest people consider R-Z346 to be strong with the Jutes.

However, R-Z346' subclades R-DF101 and R-DF102 had been well established by the 5th-6th century - given Dr. MacDonald's age estimates. In looking at the ftdna U106 project the participants' ancestry seem to point to the Netherlands for R-DF101 and R-DF102 origin.

Is there any new evidence about where these mutations might have originated?

Wing Genealogist
11-09-2019, 09:42 PM
We still need to see the raw data files from this Viking study to see if we can discover subclades below what was reported.

In addition, Iain McDonald recently reported on the U106 forum (now at groups.io) about his ongoing work on age & origin estimation for U106 & subclades. If you have not already joined this group, I would encourage you to do so by sending an email to: [email protected]

A321son
11-10-2019, 04:30 PM
Thank you Mr. Wing for your reply and pointing out the new host for U106 discussion.

Am I correct in saying that VK389 and VK34 are the only Z346 family aDNA found so far? Is https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1rpJP0Bt4qUQb9wWBFA7i1tLPV75ie_qS0iplwvvlVmQ/edit#gid=1743270299 still an up to date source for known U106 aDNA?

I am hoping to determine timeframes for my own R-FGC12993 journey. There are three branches under R-FGC12993. R-A321 is my Kincaids that took their name from the lands of Kincaid in Campsie Parish, County Stirling, Scotland (opposite Kirkintillock). Current belief is that our founder was on William Frank (Francis, Franceis, Fraunceys, etc) who helped recover Edinburgh Castle for Robert the Bruce. He would have been a Frank so thus with roots in the Netherlands. The next branch is R-FT51603 who goes back to Hamaland in central Netherlands and northwest Germany. The third branch is R-FGC12995 which all go back to the counties Somerset and Devon border of England (centering on Chard, Somerset).

As an authority on Kincaid origins (kyncades.org) I can say that the Kincaids probably go back to County Somerset as their emergence in Scotland in 1425 coincides with Joan Beaufort's marriage to King James I of Scotland in 1424. She was the daughter of John Beaufort, Earl of Somerset and she got as dowry several lands in the Earldom of Lennox (which the Kincaid lands formed part of) thanks to Donald, Earl of Lennox being executed in 1425 and his earldom forfeited. The Francis family were significant vassals of the Earls of Somerset. It looks like the Scottish Francis branch had to vacate Scotland in the mid to late 1300s due to their allegience/support of the Earls of Dunbar who tended to side with the English faction in Scotland. Now two of John Beaufort's grandparents were from the Frankish County of Hainault in Belgium. Her grandmother, Phillipa of Hainault, wife of King Edward II of England, was the daughter of William I, count of Hainault, Holland and Zeeland. So with the Francis family being notable vassals of the Beauforts, it is easy to see how the Frankish R-FGC12993 went from the Netherlands to County Somerset and up to Scotland.

Closely related to R-FGC12993 is R-S5246 which contains the Sinclairs of Roslin. They are adamant that they go back to the Salian Franks. The latter were in Sallaland in the Netherlands. This borders on the above mentioned Hamaland. Once could propose that R-FGC12993 originated in Hamaland and R-S5246 originated in adjacent Sallaland.

So the question remains, where did these particular R-DF101/DF102 Franks come from? Hence my intense interest in aDNA for parent snps of R-DF101/DF102. Were they in that particular pocket of the Netherlands for hundreds of years or were they part of the flow of migrants from Denmark that repopulated the flooded wastelands of Frisia from the 5th century.

So any new aDNA of the R-Z346 descendants would be most useful!

Wing Genealogist
11-10-2019, 05:20 PM
Without access to the raw data, we cannot say if there were other remains which would fall under Z346. Ancient DNA is by its very nature degraded and much of the information has been lost. It is not unusual for many of the calls to be based on a single read (I believe for modern DNA analysis anything less then 4 calls is simply ignored). Even with a "good" ancient DNA sample, we see only a small fraction of the mutations. I don't know of if anyone has studied the percentages, but it wouldn't surprise me if only about one quarter (or even less, possibly MUCH less) of the SNPs are called.

Z346 is only two subclades below Z8 (Z8>Z1>Z346) Thus, even the samples who are stated to fall under Z8 could potentially be Z346. After all, the majority of Z8 falls under Z1 and the majority of Z1 falls under Z346.

Wing Genealogist
11-10-2019, 05:33 PM
The Ancient/Medieval/Royal tab of the spreadheet is up to date and AFAIK accurate. I am definitely biased in this regard as I personally created and maintain this spreadsheet. I have even included the single U106+ individual found in the recent Roman DNA paper by Antonio et al. I would certainly encourage anyone to bring to my attention any U106+ remains to my attention.

A321son
11-10-2019, 06:37 PM
Thanks again Mr. Wing for your reply and your longstanding contributions to this field. I do hope some confirmed R-DF101/DF102 aDNA samples emerge. I fear that people will be satisfied with the aDNA sequenced to date and not sponsor more specific research. I do hope to learn how long my ancestors spent in each particular area.

Bollox79
11-10-2019, 08:19 PM
We still need to see the raw data files from this Viking study to see if we can discover subclades below what was reported.

In addition, Iain McDonald recently reported on the U106 forum (now at groups.io) about his ongoing work on age & origin estimation for U106 & subclades. If you have not already joined this group, I would encourage you to do so by sending an email to: [email protected]

Yep I'm waiting for raw data and possibly sub groups to be found before I add all those samples to my aDNA U106+ list!

nyad
04-25-2020, 03:44 AM
Thank you Mr. Wing for your reply and pointing out the new host for U106 discussion.

Am I correct in saying that VK389 and VK34 are the only Z346 family aDNA found so far? Is https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1rpJP0Bt4qUQb9wWBFA7i1tLPV75ie_qS0iplwvvlVmQ/edit#gid=1743270299 still an up to date source for known U106 aDNA?

I am hoping to determine timeframes for my own R-FGC12993 journey. There are three branches under R-FGC12993. R-A321 is my Kincaids that took their name from the lands of Kincaid in Campsie Parish, County Stirling, Scotland (opposite Kirkintillock). Current belief is that our founder was on William Frank (Francis, Franceis, Fraunceys, etc) who helped recover Edinburgh Castle for Robert the Bruce. He would have been a Frank so thus with roots in the Netherlands. The next branch is R-FT51603 who goes back to Hamaland in central Netherlands and northwest Germany. The third branch is R-FGC12995 which all go back to the counties Somerset and Devon border of England (centering on Chard, Somerset).

As an authority on Kincaid origins (kyncades.org) I can say that the Kincaids probably go back to County Somerset as their emergence in Scotland in 1425 coincides with Joan Beaufort's marriage to King James I of Scotland in 1424. She was the daughter of John Beaufort, Earl of Somerset and she got as dowry several lands in the Earldom of Lennox (which the Kincaid lands formed part of) thanks to Donald, Earl of Lennox being executed in 1425 and his earldom forfeited. The Francis family were significant vassals of the Earls of Somerset. It looks like the Scottish Francis branch had to vacate Scotland in the mid to late 1300s due to their allegience/support of the Earls of Dunbar who tended to side with the English faction in Scotland. Now two of John Beaufort's grandparents were from the Frankish County of Hainault in Belgium. Her grandmother, Phillipa of Hainault, wife of King Edward II of England, was the daughter of William I, count of Hainault, Holland and Zeeland. So with the Francis family being notable vassals of the Beauforts, it is easy to see how the Frankish R-FGC12993 went from the Netherlands to County Somerset and up to Scotland.

Closely related to R-FGC12993 is R-S5246 which contains the Sinclairs of Roslin. They are adamant that they go back to the Salian Franks. The latter were in Sallaland in the Netherlands. This borders on the above mentioned Hamaland. Once could propose that R-FGC12993 originated in Hamaland and R-S5246 originated in adjacent Sallaland.

So the question remains, where did these particular R-DF101/DF102 Franks come from? Hence my intense interest in aDNA for parent snps of R-DF101/DF102. Were they in that particular pocket of the Netherlands for hundreds of years or were they part of the flow of migrants from Denmark that repopulated the flooded wastelands of Frisia from the 5th century.

So any new aDNA of the R-Z346 descendants would be most useful!

I read your post with interest. With SNP Z8 pack I tested down to a confirmed R-CTS1747 (aka R-S3294) and my paternal line is from Bristol and surrounds, (Somerset). It may be a total coincidence but I have two lines of Chards on that side (not directly ydna) but in my search I came across another R-CTS1747 person who's surname is Templer from Devon. The surnames which pop up consistently are Mayberry/Mabray/Moubray and variants as well as Sley (going back to Edmund Sley of Yorkshire)

A321son
03-22-2021, 06:07 PM
It is my understanding that there are now three ancient dna samples sub R-Z346; namely VK469, VK34 & VK389. Since my original post here, I see from Mr. Wing that these samples have been further refined respectively to Z8>Z1>Z346>Z344>Z6>S18951>BY14490>S3262; Z8>Z1>Z346>Z343>BY13790>Y62502>BY13794>BY61832>BY111759; and Z8>Z1>Z346>DF101>>DF102>FGC12975>S5245>Y8604>Y99121>Y32857 (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1rpJP0Bt4qUQb9wWBFA7i1tLPV75ie_qS0iplwvvlVmQ/edit#gid=1743270299). VK389 is quite interesting to me in that it falls under a parallel clade (R-Y8604) to my Kincaid FGC12993 clade. However, the separation of these lines would have occurred long before these three Vikings of Scandinavian origins. So the question remains as to where did R-DF101 originate. Keep in mind that the Lombard ancient samples had R-Z8 clades so Scandinavia did not have a monopoly on R-Z8. Is there any other dna evidence that may shed new light on this question?