PDA

View Full Version : How old is the Erythrean Northeast Africans 'race' existed on earth



Muslim-Arbegna
11-12-2019, 05:03 AM
Is it 15k or 20k or more? And i am not just talking about the once that move to the "horn", but before even being in their pure form in NE Sudan and S. Egypt, we know that there were ancient Cushitic in kenya in who found to be identical to Ethiopic speaking Ethiopians/Eritreans that was over 4,000 years old.

NetNomad
11-12-2019, 05:14 AM
The word race is dubious and controversial. Use population instead.

Muslim-Arbegna
11-12-2019, 05:26 AM
The word race is dubious and controversial. Use population instead.

Yes, that is why i use mark on it. population seems better.

Megalophias
11-12-2019, 05:45 AM
Is it 15k or 20k or more? And i am not just talking about the once that move to the "horn", but before even being in their pure form in NE Sudan and S. Egypt, we know that there were ancient Cushitic in kenya in who found to be identical to Ethiopic speaking Ethiopians/Eritreans that was over 4,000 years old.
The 4000 yo Kenyan guys weren't identical to modern Ethiosemites. They also weren't 'pure', since they were product of mixture that took place a millennium or two before. It's conceivable that some ancestral group not too dissimilar to them existed 15 000+ years ago, but what reason is there to think that really?

Muslim-Arbegna
11-12-2019, 05:59 AM
The 4000 yo Kenyan guys weren't identical to modern Ethiosemites. They also weren't 'pure', since they were product of mixture that took place a millennium or two before. It's conceivable that some ancestral group not too dissimilar to them existed 15 000+ years ago, but what reason is there to think that really?

You seem to have a racist anti-Northeast African agenda. Who are those product of a "mixture" millennium? Yes two out of the three ancient Cushitics found in the modern European borders of Kenya were indeed closer to Ethiopic speaking Ethiopians, and Afars/Agews.

I did not mean 'pure' in a literal sense, you cloud argue Niger-Congos being a mixture of Northeast Africans and Khoisans, which is why haplogroup E is prevalent.

Megalophias
11-12-2019, 08:07 AM
:laugh: Certainly if anyone disagrees with you it can only be due to a racist agenda.

I2533 and I2544 had an admixture linkage disequilibrium signal in MALDER going back 46 14 generations prior to their lifetimes. Which were the admixing populations we don't know. They are closest to Ethiopians, yes, that doesn't make them identical or necessarily ancestral to Ethiopians. When I tried modelling Ethiopians in G25 I got better results with Kenyan Pastoral Neolithic + Mahra + Dinka, mine generally didn't want Kenyan Early Pastoral at all, though some people have posted models that use them.

Why do you think this Natufian-like + Dinka+like + Mota-like Kenyan pastoral mix would exist 15-20 000 years ago during a period of extreme aridity? Why not forming through North African pastoralists intermarrying with the Sub-Saharan East African people who made wavy-line pottery during the Green Sahara period?

drobbah
11-12-2019, 08:30 PM
You seem to have a racist anti-Northeast African agenda. Who are those product of a "mixture" millennium? Yes two out of the three ancient Cushitics found in the modern European borders of Kenya were indeed closer to Ethiopic speaking Ethiopians, and Afars/Agews.

I did not mean 'pure' in a literal sense, you cloud argue Niger-Congos being a mixture of Northeast Africans and Khoisans, which is why haplogroup E is prevalent.

Habeshas have foreign DNA from the Semites.There's a reason why you have J1 and elevated Yemenite ancestry

Muslim-Arbegna
11-12-2019, 08:39 PM
:laugh: Certainly if anyone disagrees with you it can only be due to a racist agenda.

I2533 and I2544 had an admixture linkage disequilibrium signal in MALDER going back 46 14 generations prior to their lifetimes. Which were the admixing populations we don't know. They are closest to Ethiopians, yes, that doesn't make them identical or necessarily ancestral to Ethiopians. When I tried modelling Ethiopians in G25 I got better results with Kenyan Pastoral Neolithic + Mahra + Dinka, mine generally didn't want Kenyan Early Pastoral at all, though some people have posted models that use them.

Why do you think this Natufian-like + Dinka+like + Mota-like Kenyan pastoral mix would exist 15-20 000 years ago during a period of extreme aridity? Why not forming through North African pastoralists intermarrying with the Sub-Saharan East African people who made wavy-line pottery during the Green Sahara period?

Sorry for the previous language, but I am not talking about the South Cushitic pastoral in particular, but the bulk of his ancestors which are "cushitic" (for lack of a better term), I would say that the bulk of Ethiopian and the pastoral ancestry are "identical", as they are both of Northeast African Erythrean origin.

And what do you mean by North African pastorals? You mean Neolithic Egyptian like with less Nilo-Saharan ancestry right? not Berbers. calling them "North Africans" is misleading because N Africans are not the same as neolithic especially NW Africans who have as high as 30% Niger-Congos (among the least ssa south-central Berbers).

Muslim-Arbegna
11-12-2019, 08:41 PM
Habeshas have foreign DNA from the Semites.There's a reason why you have J1 and elevated Yemenite ancestry

some Omotic subgroups have more of that stuff than any 'Habesha' ethnic groups. there is no recorded history from millennium between 'Habeshas' and Yemanis except for war.

drobbah
11-12-2019, 08:51 PM
some Omotic subgroups have more of that stuff than any 'Habesha' ethnic groups. there is no recorded history from millennium between 'Habeshas' and Yemanis except for war.

Habeshas are descendants of Yemenites who colonized the Northern regions of the Horn.Those Omotic groups probably gained J1 from an Ethio-Semitic group or through a Cushitic group that admixed with Ethio-Semites

Muslim-Arbegna
11-12-2019, 10:15 PM
Habeshas are descendants of Yemenites who colonized the Northern regions of the Horn.Those Omotic groups probably gained J1 from an Ethio-Semitic group or through a Cushitic group that admixed with Ethio-Semites

Now, you are just trolling. :\ unless you are using Habesha to refer Yemenis, which is i don't know why.

drobbah
11-12-2019, 10:58 PM
Now, you are just trolling. :\ unless you are using Habesha to refer Yemenis, which is i don't know why.

Habeshas speak a Semitic language and carry uniparental and autosomal admixture from this ancient Yemeni population that migrated into the Northern parts of the Horn.I am not trolling at all...these are facts!

NetNomad
11-13-2019, 06:57 PM
And what do you mean by North African pastorals? You mean Neolithic Egyptian like with less Nilo-Saharan ancestry right? not Berbers. calling them "North Africans" is misleading because N Africans are not the same as neolithic especially NW Africans who have as high as 30% Niger-Congos (among the least ssa south-central Berbers).

You should not assume that modern populations in a geographic location are the same as those living there 10,000 years or more ago.

Muslim-Arbegna
11-13-2019, 07:07 PM
You should not assume that modern populations in a geographic location are the same as those living there 10,000 years or more ago.

No, I was trying to tell him that.

Megalophias
11-14-2019, 12:50 AM
North Africa is not only the Maghreb, and of course I don't mean anyone like modern Berbers. If we are talking about the Late Palaeolithic, it's plausible that there were Natufian-like people in Egypt, but we really don't know. If they existed, we don't know if they had any East African shift already, or what kind, or how far south they lived. And then we don't know how much gene flow came from the Levant during the Neolithic, or from the south during the Green Sahara. So anything we say about 15-20 000 years ago can hardly be more than guessing.

The Natufian-like ancestry we find in the Horn today could in principle have come from either or both sides of the Red Sea - we don't yet have early enough DNA from either northeastern Africa or Arabia to test this directly. And it could have come by multiple routes and at different times. Likely, though we can't be sure, the Kenyans got their Natufian-like ancestry from Sudan by some route. The Eritrean-Ethiopian highlands have strong material cultural links to the Atbai tradition (Butana, Gash Group) of southeastern Sudan. But on the other hand Natufian-like ancestry could also have come across from Arabia. There were certainly cultural contacts in going back thousands of years, and the shared South Semitic language family. You can model North Eritreans and Ethiopians as a mix of Kenyan pastoral (or some other 'Cushitic') and Arabian ancestry very well.

Here are some distal scaled G25 models:
Kenya 2000 BC - 51% Natufian, 22% Dinka, 24% Mota, 3% Zagros N - 5.4812%
Amhara - 52% Natufian, 35% Dinka, 8% Mota, 5% Zagros N - distance 4.0817%
Kenya Savanna Pastoral Neolithic - 43% Natufian, 41% Dinka, 16% Mota - distance 5.8125%
Somali - 44% Natufian, 50% Dinka, 5% Mota, 1% Zagros N - distance 4.8740%
Aari Cultivator - 20% Natufian, 20% Dinka, 59% Mota, 1% Zagros N - distance 3.0648%

And good simple models (Mahra are a Yemeni group):
Amhara - 65% Kenyan Savanna PN, 8% Dinka, 27% Mahra - 1.1208%
Somali - 79% Kenyan Savanna PN, 11% Dinka, 10% Mahra - 1.5471%
Aari Cultivator - 52% Mota, 47% Kenyan Savanna PN, 1% Dinka, 1% Mahra - 1.0879%

Muslim-Arbegna
11-14-2019, 02:05 AM
You can model North Eritreans and Ethiopians as a mix of Kenyan pastoral (or some other 'Cushitic') and Arabian ancestry very well.


No you can't, this is just dishonest and confirmation bias to support ideas existing ideas. First of all who are those other 'Cushitc' groups you are talking about southeastern Cushitic groups? yes, not C/N-Cushitics (the ancestors of Habeshas) and second why are you using the most SSA/Nilotic south Cushitic samples from kenya.

the 'semitic' language in NE Africa come about through a massive assimilation (I would call it assimilation the language has been in NE africa for a millenniums, but you get the idea).

And I don't think that "kenyan" pastoral is good modeling sample even if he clusters with Ethiopians, they have a lot of HG dna.

Megalophias
11-14-2019, 07:18 AM
Look, you seem to have some kind of national pride thing going on, and also you don't know jack shit. Try modelling populations for yourself and see what results you get. Then come back and post them.