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drobbah
11-13-2019, 05:08 AM
From the runs I have had on nmonte,it seems most Yemenis carry both Dinka and Mota ancestry with the latter being a possible signal of Cushitic or Ethio-Semitic admixture in Yemen.When could this possible East African ancestry arrive in Yemen? I know Militarev identified a Cushitic substratum in Modern South Arabian but considering that the Mahra don't score any Dinka or Mota, it doesn't seem to be helping his case for a Cushitic presence in Southern Arabia prior to the arrival of Semitic speakers

https://i.imgur.com/HBpEThH.png

https://i.imgur.com/db5jQ2i.png

drobbah
11-13-2019, 05:29 AM
An nmonte run with modern Northern Ethiopian groups
https://i.imgur.com/c5BHjAV.png


With ancient Cushitic pastoralists
https://i.imgur.com/wdYJqb0.png

misanthropy
11-13-2019, 05:49 AM
Could you run my brother and I? We have some Yemeni mixture with E-V22 (E-L677) Y-dna. Still trying to figure out how this haplogroup ended up in the Hadramout area of Yemen and why does it seem so rare in Yemen and Arabian Peninsula in general. Edit: of course you have to add some South Asian groups like velamas or paniya for a better fit for us. Might be tough since South Asian might siphon some levant too

,PC1,PC2,PC3,PC4,PC5,PC6,PC7,PC8,PC9,PC10,PC11,PC1 2,PC13,PC14,PC15,PC16,PC17,PC18,PC19,PC20,PC21,PC2 2,PC23,PC24,PC25
misanthropy_scaled,0.0387,-0.058901,-0.144814,0.09044,-0.07386,0.048248,0,0.010384,0.043768,0.019135,-0.004547,-0.001948,-0.001784,0.003853,-0.003257,-0.00716,-0.00678,0.001647,0.001885,0.001626,0.002121,0.0059 35,-0.001232,0.007591,-0.005628


,PC1,PC2,PC3,PC4,PC5,PC6,PC7,PC8,PC9,PC10,PC11,PC1 2,PC13,PC14,PC15,PC16,PC17,PC18,PC19,PC20,PC21,PC2 2,PC23,PC24,PC25
misanthropy_brother_scaled,0.034147,-0.043668,-0.144437,0.080104,-0.074783,0.047411,0.003525,0.017076,0.040496,0.021 504,-0.008282,-0.006744,0.001487,0.003441,-0.002986,-0.018165,-0.003651,0.000253,0.010056,0.002751,0.009109,0.003 586,0.001972,-0.004458,-0.007065

Edit 2: quick and dirty run - this is actually not too far off our two way typical gedmatch oracles of South Asian + Yemen like pop

https://i.imgur.com/HF2aqdf.png

drobbah
11-13-2019, 05:59 AM
Could you run my brother and I? We have some Yemeni mixture with E-V22 (E-L677) Y-dna. Still trying to figure out how this haplogroup ended up in the Hadramout area of Yemen and why does it seem so rare in Yemen and Arabian Peninsula in general. Edit: of course you have to add some South Asian groups like velamas or paniya for a better fit for us. Might be tough since South Asian might siphon some levant too

,PC1,PC2,PC3,PC4,PC5,PC6,PC7,PC8,PC9,PC10,PC11,PC1 2,PC13,PC14,PC15,PC16,PC17,PC18,PC19,PC20,PC21,PC2 2,PC23,PC24,PC25
misanthropy_scaled,0.0387,-0.058901,-0.144814,0.09044,-0.07386,0.048248,0,0.010384,0.043768,0.019135,-0.004547,-0.001948,-0.001784,0.003853,-0.003257,-0.00716,-0.00678,0.001647,0.001885,0.001626,0.002121,0.0059 35,-0.001232,0.007591,-0.005628


,PC1,PC2,PC3,PC4,PC5,PC6,PC7,PC8,PC9,PC10,PC11,PC1 2,PC13,PC14,PC15,PC16,PC17,PC18,PC19,PC20,PC21,PC2 2,PC23,PC24,PC25
misanthropy_brother_scaled,0.034147,-0.043668,-0.144437,0.080104,-0.074783,0.047411,0.003525,0.017076,0.040496,0.021 504,-0.008282,-0.006744,0.001487,0.003441,-0.002986,-0.018165,-0.003651,0.000253,0.010056,0.002751,0.009109,0.003 586,0.001972,-0.004458,-0.007065




Target: misanthropy_brother_scaled
Distance: 4.2080% / 0.04208029
Aggregated
57.6 Paniya
23.0 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
10.2 Levant_JOR_EBA
9.0 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
0.2 Dinka
0.0 Levant_Natufian
0.0 ETH_4500BP

Target: misanthropy_scaled
Distance: 3.3664% / 0.03366368
Aggregated
61.0 Paniya
20.6 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
11.6 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
6.8 Levant_JOR_EBA
0.0 Levant_Natufian
0.0 Dinka
0.0 ETH_4500BP

misanthropy
11-13-2019, 06:17 AM
Ok based on the proportions we get, it looks like our ancestor from Hadramout was like a typical Yemeni. What time period is Levant_JOR_EBA from?

Edit: EBA is Early Bronze Age

pegasus
11-16-2019, 01:09 PM
Could you run my brother and I? We have some Yemeni mixture with E-V22 (E-L677) Y-dna. Still trying to figure out how this haplogroup ended up in the Hadramout area of Yemen and why does it seem so rare in Yemen and Arabian Peninsula in general. Edit: of course you have to add some South Asian groups like velamas or paniya for a better fit for us. Might be tough since South Asian might siphon some levant too

,PC1,PC2,PC3,PC4,PC5,PC6,PC7,PC8,PC9,PC10,PC11,PC1 2,PC13,PC14,PC15,PC16,PC17,PC18,PC19,PC20,PC21,PC2 2,PC23,PC24,PC25
misanthropy_scaled,0.0387,-0.058901,-0.144814,0.09044,-0.07386,0.048248,0,0.010384,0.043768,0.019135,-0.004547,-0.001948,-0.001784,0.003853,-0.003257,-0.00716,-0.00678,0.001647,0.001885,0.001626,0.002121,0.0059 35,-0.001232,0.007591,-0.005628


,PC1,PC2,PC3,PC4,PC5,PC6,PC7,PC8,PC9,PC10,PC11,PC1 2,PC13,PC14,PC15,PC16,PC17,PC18,PC19,PC20,PC21,PC2 2,PC23,PC24,PC25
misanthropy_brother_scaled,0.034147,-0.043668,-0.144437,0.080104,-0.074783,0.047411,0.003525,0.017076,0.040496,0.021 504,-0.008282,-0.006744,0.001487,0.003441,-0.002986,-0.018165,-0.003651,0.000253,0.010056,0.002751,0.009109,0.003 586,0.001972,-0.004458,-0.007065

Edit 2: quick and dirty run - this is actually not too far off our two way typical gedmatch oracles of South Asian + Yemen like pop

https://i.imgur.com/HF2aqdf.png


For you but keep in mind vaaho uses pen=0

Target: misanthropy_scaled
Distance: 1.5342% / 0.01534229
Aggregated
78.2 PAK_Saidu_Sharif_H_o
10.0 Yemenite_Dhamar
8.6 TKM_Gonur1_BA
2.2 NPL_Chokhopani_2700BP
1.0 RUS_Sintashta_MLBA

Horner
12-01-2019, 02:28 AM
There is recently shared ancestry between some modern Yemeni & Ethiopians & Eritreans. Based on the matches that I have seen I can only assume that the majority of recent admixture went from East Africa to the Arabian peninsula & Egypt (e.g. common local EA matches, and reporting local EA ancestry).

drobbah
12-01-2019, 06:00 AM
There is recently shared ancestry between some modern Yemeni & Ethiopians & Eritreans. Based on the matches that I have seen I can only assume that the majority of recent admixture went from East Africa to the Arabian peninsula & Egypt (e.g. common local EA matches, and reporting local EA ancestry).

I understand there are Yemeni individuals with recent Habesha and Somali ancestry but this Horner admixture (Dinka + Mota) is widespread in Yemen (with the exception Mahra people) and cannot be explained with recent interactions.I think it is a possibility that there was a Cushitic group that existed in Yemen prior to the arrival of Semitic speakers.

Horner
12-01-2019, 04:00 PM
I understand there are Yemeni individuals with recent Habesha and Somali ancestry but this Horner admixture (Dinka + Mota) is widespread in Yemen (with the exception Mahra people) and cannot be explained with recent interactions.I think it is a possibility that there was a Cushitic group that existed in Yemen prior to the arrival of Semitic speakers.

It is possible that an early Cushitic like population lived in Yemen long ago and this is an interesting theory. We know that Yemeni are bottlenecked J-58 and so parental markers currently do not tell a clear story until we resolve the real age & origin of J-58. However, we also know that populations in current-day Yemen & East Africa have interacted for a millennium when populations were likely small. There has been plenty of time for ancestral components to be widespread by now. Several of the E-V22 users from neighboring Saudi that have posted on Y-full are downstream E-v3262 which is currently most prevalent in East Africa. These testers currently have a TMRCA of ~3800 ybp which is line with what we know about interactions between ancient Saba and D'mt across the Red Sea.

Yemen is under-represented in genetic studies. Unfortunately because of the current political crisis, new studies in Yemen are unlikely.

drobbah
12-02-2019, 09:58 PM
I ran the Yemenis with all available modern Horner and ancient cushitic pastoralists and it seems they specifically prefer the Afars and the Amharas.
35101

drobbah
12-02-2019, 10:09 PM
It is possible that an early Cushitic like population lived in Yemen long ago and this is an interesting theory. We know that Yemeni are bottlenecked J-58 and so parental markers currently do not tell a clear story until we resolve the real age & origin of J-58. However, we also know that populations in current-day Yemen & East Africa have interacted for a millennium when populations were likely small. There has been plenty of time for ancestral components to be widespread by now. Several of the E-V22 users from neighboring Saudi that have posted on Y-full are downstream E-v3262 which is currently most prevalent in East Africa. These testers currently have a TMRCA of ~3800 ybp which is line with what we know about interactions between ancient Saba and D'mt across the Red Sea.

Yemen is under-represented in genetic studies. Unfortunately because of the current political crisis, new studies in Yemen are unlikely.

The E-V32 subclades found in the Arabian Peninsula is mostly of Habesha/Northern Ethiopian origin with the exception of some Kuwaitis who carry a Sahelian V32 subclade.The TMRCA of the E-V32 Arabs vary but some have subclades that are between 3k-3.6k ybp

dr.sparco
12-27-2019, 03:51 PM
You have also to keep in mind that the Habesha people from the Axumite Kingdom traded with enslaved Nilotic/Omotic Ethiopians long before the Arab slave trade. Hence many Omotic/Nilotic tribespeople were sold to the Arabs/in the Arab peninsula.

drobbah
09-30-2020, 04:54 AM
Been running many of the Peninsular Arabians on G25 lately and Dinka does indeed peak among the Yemenis compared to the BedouinB & Saudis which isn't shocking.What is shocking is how some of these Yemeni samples get ETH_4500 ancestry but without as much Dinka present compared to the other Yemeni samples.Here are some examples:

Target: Yemenite_Al_Bayda:Y097
Distance: 3.6361% / 0.03636119
81.2 Levant_JOR_EBA
13.0 Levant_Natufian
4.2 Mota
1.0 Dinka
0.6 Gujarati

Target: Yemenite_Amran:Y536
Distance: 3.6514% / 0.03651385
88.4 Levant_JOR_EBA
4.6 Levant_Natufian
4.4 Mota
2.2 Gujarati
0.4 Yamnaya_UKR

Target: Yemenite_Dhamar:Y038
Distance: 3.3543% / 0.03354343
75.4 Levant_JOR_EBA
19.4 Levant_Natufian
4.0 Mota
0.6 Dinka
0.6 Gujarati

Target: Yemenite_Amran:Y524
Distance: 2.4479% / 0.02447949
85.2 Levant_JOR_EBA
7.0 Levant_Natufian
4.6 Mota
2.6 Gujarati
0.6 Yamnaya_UKR



Yemenis with Dinka/Mota ratios that makes sense if there was Eritrean/Ethiopian or Somali/Afar (Dinka with little to no Mota) geneflow to Yemen:


Target: Yemenite_Dhamar:Y025
Distance: 3.6198% / 0.03619783
71.6 Levant_JOR_EBA
17.2 Levant_Natufian
5.8 Yamnaya_UKR
3.6 Dinka
1.8 Mota

Target: Yemenite_Dhamar:Y392
Distance: 3.1851% / 0.03185076
81.0 Levant_JOR_EBA
12.2 Levant_Natufian
4.0 Dinka
1.6 Gujarati
1.2 Mota

Target: Yemenite_Amran:Y504
Distance: 2.9740% / 0.02974010
86.8 Levant_JOR_EBA
5.0 Dinka
5.0 Gujarati
3.2 Levant_Natufian

Target: Yemenite_Al_Bayda:Y086
Distance: 3.8066% / 0.03806641
84.4 Levant_JOR_EBA
9.0 Levant_Natufian
5.2 Dinka
1.4 Yamnaya_UKR

Target: Yemenite_Dhamar:Y018
Distance: 2.2065% / 0.02206544
90.4 Levant_JOR_EBA
6.8 Dinka
1.0 Gujarati
1.0 Levant_Natufian
0.8 Yamnaya_UKR





Here are G25 runs but with the Tigrays,Afars & other Horners included

Samples that peak with Tigray
https://i.imgur.com/JKjewc2.png


Samples that peak with the Afar
https://i.imgur.com/1OrgxnH.png


Using the Ancient Cushitic Kenyan Pastoralist sample that has no Mota ancestry
https://i.imgur.com/IONiE0e.png

davit
01-01-2021, 11:32 PM
I understand there are Yemeni individuals with recent Habesha and Somali ancestry but this Horner admixture (Dinka + Mota) is widespread in Yemen (with the exception Mahra people) and cannot be explained with recent interactions.I think it is a possibility that there was a Cushitic group that existed in Yemen prior to the arrival of Semitic speakers.

Are you saying the indigenous people of Yemen would have been Cushitic people?

drobbah
01-02-2021, 04:46 AM
Are you saying the indigenous people of Yemen would have been Cushitic people?
I don't think so but I think it's possible there was a Cushitic/Horner presence early in the history of Yemen

Awale
01-02-2021, 11:08 AM
I don't think so but I think it's possible there was a Cushitic/Horner presence early in the history of Yemen

This definitely seems the case in my opinion, at least in part. There is a very real Cushitic substratum in the Modern South Arabian languages (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modern_South_Arabian_languages) then there is archaeological evidence of continuity between the ancient Horn and Yemen going way back but this time, unlike in the case of the later Ethiosemitic, in the Horn->Yemen direction. The cave-paintings of the Horn (https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?22337-Quick-question-about-the-Beja&p=723964#post723964) that we can tell were left by early Cushitic pastoralists are often referred to as the "Ethiopian-Arabian" style, for example. And I sadly don't have it on me now but I remember an old paper also showing that the early Cushites' stelae raising culture had spread to Yemen sometime before 1000 BCE, think like 2000 BCE or so. I think Cushites didn't just expand into the Horn, Southeast and Southern Africa from Sudan but eventually into Yemen too but were eventually swallowed up by gradual waves of expanding Semites from the north who brought things like metallurgy, writing, camel domestication and so on.

drobbah
01-02-2021, 11:35 AM
This definitely seems the case in my opinion, at least in part. There is a very real Cushitic substratum in the Modern South Arabian languages (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modern_South_Arabian_languages) then there is archaeological evidence of continuity between the ancient Horn and Yemen going way back but this time, unlike in the case of the later Ethiosemitic, in the Horn->Yemen direction. The cave-paintings of the Horn (https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?22337-Quick-question-about-the-Beja&p=723964#post723964) that we can tell were left by early Cushitic pastoralists are often referred to as the "Ethiopian-Arabian" style, for example. And I sadly don't have it on me now but I remember an old paper also showing that the early Cushites' stelae raising culture had spread to Yemen sometime before 1000 BCE, think like 2000 BCE or so. I think Cushites didn't just expand into the Horn, Southeast and Southern Africa from Sudan but eventually into Yemen too but were eventually swallowed up by gradual waves of expanding Semites from the north who brought things like metallurgy, writing, camel domestication and so on.
There was some sort of obsidian trade between the Horn and Arabia that arose around from what I read in 7000 BC and was firmly established between the second and third millennium BC, there are many other evidences of early contact and possible population exchanges between the Horn and Arabia like the Horner plants found in South Asia.

I wonder what kind of cushitic was found in the MSA languages.I would assume it was some sort of East Cushitic as that would make sense as we probably received the camel and the South Arabian saddle from the southern seaboard of Yemen where MSA used to dominate

davit
01-02-2021, 12:35 PM
Would those Cushites expanding into Yemen have resembled those pastoralists that we have from Kenya? About 50% Natufian, 50% East African?

Keneki20
01-02-2021, 01:49 PM
There was some sort of obsidian trade between the Horn and Arabia that arose around from what I read in 7000 BC and was firmly established between the second and third millennium BC, there are many other evidences of early contact and possible population exchanges between the Horn and Arabia like the Horner plants found in South Asia.

I wonder what kind of cushitic was found in the MSA languages.I would assume it was some sort of East Cushitic as that would make sense as we probably received the camel and the South Arabian saddle from the southern seaboard of Yemen where MSA used to dominate

The sources I have specify that the linguistic substrate in MSA is East Cushitic-like. Since there’s North and South Cushitic to consider, and since North Cushitic is readily identified as the most divergent of the branch, I have, like others here, and in conjunction with some other information, taken that to mean that Cushitic was intrusive to Arabia from the Horn or thereabouts.

I wasn’t so sure how that happened, but I surmised that it might have something to do with Punt, since I heard there’d been some speculation that Punt might have been in Arabia instead of East Africa. Most sources I’ve looked at say it was in East Africa, but if there were some speculation that it were in Arabia, then I saw that as at least a signal of interaction between the Horn and Arabia at a time when the Horn was populated almost exclusively by Cushitic speakers. Though, the other information brought forth by others here gives something more concrete without having to invoke Punt, too.

Keneki20
01-02-2021, 01:59 PM
Would those Cushites expanding into Yemen have resembled those pastoralists that we have from Kenya? About 50% Natufian, 50% East African?

I saw one thread a while back that mentioned there being a little bit of AEA/Dinka-like ancestry in the Mehri (themselves MSA speakers), and I thought that might be a sign of admixture with Cushitic peoples. However, today, I think that might be frivolous or possibly misinterpreted. From what I've seen since then, they seem to not have African ancestry. So, it seems rather unclear to what extent this Cushitic influence may have had a genetic impact on today's MSA speakers. Ultimately, though, I trust that I'm missing something.

drobbah
01-02-2021, 02:19 PM
Would those Cushites expanding into Yemen have resembled those pastoralists that we have from Kenya? About 50% Natufian, 50% East African?
I think they resembled the later cushitic pastoralists who cluster mostly with modern Somalis and Eastern Oromos.I added both the early pastoralists and added the later pastoralists and labelled them all KEN_N,they seem to prefer the later pastoralists which makes complete sense.

42239


I saw one thread a while back that mentioned there being a little bit of AEA/Dinka-like ancestry in the Mehri (themselves MSA speakers), and I thought that might be a sign of admixture with Cushitic peoples. However, today, I think that might be frivolous or possibly misinterpreted. From what I've seen since then, they seem to not have African ancestry. So, it seems rather unclear to what extent this Cushitic influence may have had a genetic impact on today's MSA speakers. Ultimately, though, I trust that I'm missing something.
The Mehri from what I seen don't get any Dinka/Sudanese on G25.I think they represent a later migration into Yemen from modern Oman where the rest of their linguistic cousins reside which might explain why they score the lowest amount of Cushitic ancestry among the Arabians

Keneki20
01-02-2021, 04:25 PM
This definitely seems the case in my opinion, at least in part. There is a very real Cushitic substratum in the Modern South Arabian languages (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modern_South_Arabian_languages) then there is archaeological evidence of continuity between the ancient Horn and Yemen going way back but this time, unlike in the case of the later Ethiosemitic, in the Horn->Yemen direction. The cave-paintings of the Horn (https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?22337-Quick-question-about-the-Beja&p=723964#post723964) that we can tell were left by early Cushitic pastoralists are often referred to as the "Ethiopian-Arabian" style, for example. And I sadly don't have it on me now but I remember an old paper also showing that the early Cushites' stelae raising culture had spread to Yemen sometime before 1000 BCE, think like 2000 BCE or so. I think Cushites didn't just expand into the Horn, Southeast and Southern Africa from Sudan but eventually into Yemen too but were eventually swallowed up by gradual waves of expanding Semites from the north who brought things like metallurgy, writing, camel domestication and so on.

There was a Cushitic presence in Southern Africa as well? Where in Southern Africa in particular? I had assumed that Cushitic-like affinities in Southern Africa were mostly the result of very early Khoe-Kwadi speakers migrating into Southern Africa from what's now Tanzania and bringing that genetic signature of admixture with presumed Cushitic speakers from before they departed the area. Although, from what you're saying, I guess, that's only part of the story?

drobbah
01-20-2021, 07:08 AM
Re-did it again, it seems the Saudi average sample is the least Horner & West African admixed of the Arabians.All the Yemenis still show Somali-like ancestry, I used Somali15 as it isn't as Arabian admixed as the other Somali samples.Horner ancestry decreases the father North you go with Mahra still being the sole exception to the rule.

42708


There was a Cushitic presence in Southern Africa as well? Where in Southern Africa in particular? I had assumed that Cushitic-like affinities in Southern Africa were mostly the result of very early Khoe-Kwadi speakers migrating into Southern Africa from what's now Tanzania and bringing that genetic signature of admixture with presumed Cushitic speakers from before they departed the area. Although, from what you're saying, I guess, that's only part of the story?
https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-gmaXR1a6WYA/VYV-GVebaEI/AAAAAAAAC1A/8hZa2_HVpn0/s1600/kk.png